Length of Gym Challenge

[WeileMom]

How long did your Gym Challenge run?

In LA (Irvine) play started at 12noon and ended just short of 11pm.
We had 7 rounds of swiss, followed by a cut to top 8 in the 15+ and 11-14 groups, top 4 in the 10 & U.
We had 67 players.
All rounds went to the 30 min time limit, but the pairings for the next round were up within 10 minutes. We had no software glitches and we took a 30 minute break for lunch (some players had longer if they finished their round early).
I'm wondering if all of the Challenges are running this long.
If so, how are the Stadium's going to be able to complete the tournament in one day? I'm guessing the attendance will be larger.
Best 2 out of 3 really is the way to go, but the rules on it are vague and it makes the day run really long.
---Nicole
WeileMom

[mewsmom]

Well nearly 11 hours is pretty long.

In Houston we had 41 players and played 5 rounds I believe. Our tourney there with 2/3 in top 8 went from about 12-7pm the latest. And that's not starting at exactly 12. The pairings to the next rounds were up in close to 5mins or less at times or if technical issues (hardly ever) up less then 10. We also had a 30 to nearly 45min break depending on if you left right after your match ended.

Now in Plano this past weekend, there were probably close to 70 players we did 5 rounds of swiss cutting to top 8 or 4 with single lim at top. We started close to 1pm and we all were out by 6 after hanging out after winners were announced. Same thing with getting pairings up and so forth.

We've had tourneys in OK that had 6 rounds of swiss and none of our tourneys turned into nearly a 12 hour day with side events running after the main events

Surely your 1 extra round of swiss didn't add on that much time.

[GymLeaderPhil]

West Palm Beach GC ran five rounds of swiss as recommended by POP Guidelines.

15+ cut to top eight single elimination best two out of three matches, no time limit. The last game finished around 11:00pm.

11-14 cut to top four single elimination best two out of three matches, no time limit. The last game was finished around 9:00pm.

10-Under (I believe) cut to top four (due to POP Guidelines) single elimination best two out of three matches, no time limit. The last game was around 9:00pm. I do not think that the POP Guidlines allowed cuts to top two in the single elimination finals, I'll have to verify that.

So we set up at 9:00am and cleaned house at 11:30pm. Fourteen hours. Stupid 2/3 matches. =/
-Phil

[FireFighter095ReBorn]

wow wayyyyyyy to long. I agree that that is to long. The one yesterday in Ny ended in 7 hours. It went almost to 7 when the pokemon center closed. It started at 1130 am. I agree gym challneges get to be long when they are 2 out of 3 but if it makes for a great series to the end it is all worth it.

[WeileMom]

I'm glad to hear ours wasn't the only one.
I'm not sure what you guys in Texas did, but please share your secrets!
I was scorekeeping and printing the rounds so 10 minutes may not have been how long it took, it probably took less time, but I never really checked my watch. The round would end and we would usually have 3 games finishing up.
Maybe we just take longer to play our games here in California, I don't know, but I really don't see any way to make the day shorter.
---Nicole
WeileMom

[meganium45]

I cannot speak for all the Stadium PTOs, but I can speak for me!

We will be able to get this event in in one day!

Each of the age groups will be separated for individual tourneys (run by hand if the software is still what it is) - so we are preparing for 70-80 in each age group in the South.

That would translate into 6 swiss rounds, then a cut to a top 16...

4 rounds of 2/3 finals, which would make the total time of play....7 hours to the champion.

Which means there would be 8.5 total hours with lunch break and between rounds factored in...

If we start at 11:00 for play, we will be done at 7:30, which is acceptable, and launch the rochester draft event at that point!

I am betting that the main event will be done, with elimination rounds closer to 6:30, but that is just from experience with 2/3 matches.

All will work out, you will see!

Meganium45

[Prof Clay]

11:30 pm...wow. What on earth are those guys doing that would take so long to play best 2 of 3. We had 51 in Memphis this weekend and we were finished by 6:30 and begining at 11:30 . And the tournament program locked up so all pairings had to be done by hand. We had 5 rounds of swiss with only a few of the rounds going a full 30 minutes and a 45 minute lunch break in between

I cannot comprehend pokemon games lasting that long unless some serious stalling was going on. What time did you start?

[GymLeaderPhil]

11:30 pm...wow. What on earth are those guys doing that would take so long to play best 2 of 3.

No time limits, since there is no POP Supported Guidelines to determine the outcome when timed.
-Phil

[WeileMom]

No time limits, since there is no POP Supported Guidelines to determine the outcome when timed.
-Phil

Exactly.
My daughter and I have literally played 2 hour games at home and we weren't stalling either.
You can practically hear the gears turning when some of these kids are playing.
Pokemon would have been smart to make the 2 out of 3 matches 30 min. timed games.
---Nicole
WeileMom

[Prof Clay]

I understand "No time limits". My question was "what are they doing to take so long?" I mean, are they stalling, taking 15 minute breaks between turns and games, ordering pizza and eating it while playing....

I understand taking time and trying to figure out the perfect move and this is the case then more power to them.

I must seem pathetic posting so much today. Boredom here at school getting students ready for final exams. I hate the last days of school...

--Clay (Poke_Dad)

[ToysRUsKid]

The time is worth it if a trip is on the line, if you dont wanna go for 8+ Hours, Dont bother showing up.

[Professor_Chris]

The time is worth it if a trip is on the line, if you dont wanna go for 8+ Hours, Dont bother showing up.
Thats pretty much my sentiments...in Nashville it lasted atleast 10 hours w/ registration, by the time 11-14 had finished all that was left was the winners of other age divisions, their friends/family, and the Tourney staff. If you didn't make the cut and you wanna leave, ask for your prize and go...once your elimated from the Top 4/8/16/whatever, if you don't wanna stick around to see the winner then don't, get your prize and go. If you're in Top 4/8/16 and you're winning...don't complain about the time...its worth it. Big tourneys take big time. Can't wait until South Stadium...hope I'm able to go...I'll be one of the ones there till the very end hopefully ^_~

[GymLeaderPhil]

Not much of a reason to stall with no time limits. ;)

I believe all of the 11-14 and 10-Under matches were finished in two games. I was watching one 15+ player with a Flygon deck, almost no draw power, and one of his matches took three games. His match took two hours all together, both players were carefully mulling over what to play. Trust me, we were trying to finish up the event as soon as possible. :)
-Phil

[DaytonGymLeader]

IEach of the age groups will be separated for individual tourneys (run by hand if the software is still what it is) - so we are preparing for 70-80 in each age group in the South.

That would translate into 6 swiss rounds, then a cut to a top 16...So you're running 1 round less? 70-80 players should be 7 rounds, as 64 players is the cut for 6.

Yes, Best of 3 is extremely time intensive. The two Gym Challenges we staffed went roughly 10-11 hours after all the Top Cut Elims were finished.

The new catch phrase is "LONG DAY"

[meganium45]

True, that, 7 rounds is correct.

Time intensive, but with so much at stake, I am sure we can do it...

Steve, how is Nationals being run?

M45

[YoungJohn06]

11:30 pm...wow. What on earth are those guys doing that would take so long to play best 2 of 3. We had 51 in Memphis this weekend and we were finished by 6:30 and begining at 11:30 . And the tournament program locked up so all pairings had to be done by hand. We had 5 rounds of swiss with only a few of the rounds going a full 30 minutes and a 45 minute lunch break in between

I cannot comprehend pokemon games lasting that long unless some serious stalling was going on. What time did you start?


The top players normally take a lot of time... the think out each move and even several turns ahead of what could happen. We look at every single card in play, discard piles and our hands... think of what happens when we play every single card what can happen next turn and so on. It can take a very long time which is understandable if a trip is on the line I think the players are going to be thinking a lot.

[DaytonGymLeader]

I can only offer speculation at this point, but should know more as it gets closer. Jimmer will be your Head Judge. Rules Enforcement should be pretty tough as this is a National Championship (supporters, deck list accuracy, procedural type stuff, etc). We have a pretty experienced and knowledgable staff on hand to make this event goes smoothly:

Myself, Margaret, Sensei, Doug Zuver, Mr. Grass, Farbsman, Jimmer Siversten, and some others whose names elude me right now.

Our intent is separate age groups with standard swiss. Then untimed best of 3 Top Cuts.

[SteveP]

Colordo started the 5 rounds of 50-minute Swiss (best-of-3, age-pods) at 1030am and ended at 430pm (45-minute lunch). The top 4 rounds ended about 6pm for the 10-under and 11-14. The 15+ players went the full distance until after 730pm.

[WeileMom]

Colordo started the 5 rounds of 50-minute Swiss (best-of-3, age-pods) at 1030am and ended at 430pm (45-minute lunch). The top 4 rounds ended about 6pm for the 10-under and 11-14. The 15+ players went the full distance until after 730pm.

So, you played best 2 out of 3 games all day? Instead of 5 regular of swiss? Wow!
Just curious, when the games went unfinished in 50 min, how did you decide the winners?
---Nicole
WeileMom

[SuperWooper]

If so, how are the Stadium's going to be able to complete the tournament in one day?

Uhhhh...correct me if I'm wrong, but SC's take two days!
No worries then.

Wooper

[SD PokeMom]

Uhh, nope: Stadium Challenges are only ONE day...Worlds is two days.

'mom

[SuperWooper]

The top players normally take a lot of time... the think out each move and even several turns ahead of what could happen. We look at every single card in play, discard piles and our hands... think of what happens when we play every single card what can happen next turn and so on. It can take a very long time which is understandable if a trip is on the line I think the players are going to be thinking a lot.

Double post.......haven't done one in a while...

Not to mention when good players SARs or Alluring Smile first turn, guess what they do? Look through their deck to see what cards are in their prizes. This can take minutes, but it really helps. Every turn the players figure out odds of finding certain cards in their deck, which pokemon they need to target, their strategy, a lot of this is determined early game.

[SuperWooper]

Uhh, nope: Stadium Challenges are only ONE day...Worlds is two days.

'mom

Um...I'm thoroughly confused. Please explain this to me:

actually the main event is 2 day but regardless.

Doesn't this kinda say otherwise?

[GymLeaderPhil]

The Stadium Challenges are one day... I dont see anywhere that Sensei mentioned two days, nor anything on the op.pokemon-tcg.com site.
-Phil

[SuperWooper]

The Stadium Challenges are one day... I dont see anywhere that Sensei mentioned two days, nor anything on the op.pokemon-tcg.com site.
-Phil

Hm...then what did SHPanda mean?

[GymLeaderPhil]

FireFighter095ReBorn - I was pointing out that one of the TOs of this event had Organized a 3-day MAGIC event... (the dates are 16, 17, 18th according to the info at that web site - and yes, the main event is two days :))

The Stadium Challenges are 1-day events.

Reread the topic a bit more ;)
-Phil

[SuperWooper]

Reread the topic a bit more ;)
-Phil

Did, and realized Sensei recommended hotels. Why would he do this if the event wasn't 2 days? For people having a long drive ahead of 'em, like you Phil? All the way from FL...whew!

Is that why hotels are listed?

Wooper

[WeileMom]

Did, and realized Sensei recommended hotels. Why would he do this if the event wasn't 2 days? For people having a long drive ahead of 'em, like you Phil? All the way from FL...whew!

Is that why hotels are listed?

Wooper

Wow...
since the Stadium is for the ENTIRE East Coast and not just for Virginia, I'm sure there are some people who would like to find a place to stay.
We have to do that here in on the West Coast too.
---Nicole
WeileMom

[WeileMom]

I suppose I should have put "DC area" not "Virginia" but the same concept applies.
--Nicole

[SuperWooper]

So it's one day. Got it, and sorry for wasting a lot of board space! :nonono: :lol:

The hotels and MTG tourney kinda threw me off the rails but I'm good now.

WooPeRizZlE

[Ez1]

Looking at the start times of the tournaments it seems many started between 11 and 1:00.

Maybe what really needs to be done is start earlier. Sign-ups between 9-10 and

start at 10 etc.....

[DaytonGymLeader]

Been there, done that. Still didn't finish until between 7-8PM.

[WeileMom]

It seems like the only way to solve the problem is to run the 3 age groups in separate tournaments.
How many kids do you have to have to do this? Is 8 in an age group enough?
---Nicole
WeileMom

[SteveP]

So, you played best 2 out of 3 games all day? Instead of 5 regular of swiss? Wow!
Just curious, when the games went unfinished in 50 min, how did you decide the winners?


We used to normal "who's ahead on prizes" rule from the Floor Rules. It was possible for games (and matches) to end in draws during the Swiss rounds.

The only situation I stupidly DIDN'T plan for was a 1-1 tie in the playoffs when time was called. It happened on one of the 15+ semi-finals. Personally, I detest sudden death, so I gave the players the option of doing sudden death or 15-minutes, 3-prizes (whichever comes first), followed by sudden death if needed (next player to draw a prize in the on-going 3rd game). Both player EASILY choose the 15-minute, 3-prize extension. Other PTOs probably would've choosen sudden death, but that's not my preference when such a big prize is "up for grabs."

[SteveP]

It seems like the only way to solve the problem is to run the 3 age groups in separate tournaments.
How many kids do you have to have to do this? Is 8 in an age group enough?


According to POP's "recommendations" for the Gyms, PTOs can run a separate age-pod for 24 or more players in a particular age-group.

It's up to the PTO. Here in Colorado we did 3 separate age-pods (regardless of their size). We had 11, 14, and 12 players in each of the age groups.

[DaytonGymLeader]

POP has dropped the requirement from 24 to 16 to move from age modified to age pods.

[farbsman]

POP has dropped the requirement from 24 to 16 to move from age modified to age pods.

This is true, but according to the requirements all age groups have to have 16 players to split. Not just one.

The requirements state:

Age Modified / Age Pods:

If your lowest attended age group has at least 16 players, you may run Age Pods instead of Age Modified Swiss.

I started my event at Noon, didn't take a lunch break (especially since last time I checked, most people eat lunch at Noon) and was done with Swiss by around 4:30-5pm. After running 2 of 3 for the age groups with no time limits I had everything cleaned up for the event by 11pm and that was after running 3 sanctioned and 2 non-sanctioned events.

[SteveP]

POP has dropped the requirement from 24 to 16 to move from age modified to age pods.

The requirements state:

um, you might want to change requirement to recommendation. I highly doubt POP will ever require TOs to run age-modified when age-pods are preferred by that TO.

IMO, 16 is STILL too high, especially since I can probably count on one hand (maybe even one finger) the number of locations that have at least 16 players in the 10-under category. IMO, the recommended minimum should be 8, the same as the minimum for any sanctioned tournament.

[old man]

Some PTO's won't follow recommendations though. Some only see them as a guideline & do whatever they can/want in order to get the tournament over with by a certain time.

This last GC I attended there were 34 in the 15+ age group, and there was enough in each of the other age groups as well that they could've been separated but he chose instead to make it all 1 big group during the swiss rounds.

[SteveP]

Some PTO's won't follow recommendations though. Some only see them as a guideline & do whatever they can/want in order to get the tournament over with by a certain time.

This last GC I attended there were 34 in the 15+ age group, and there was enough in each of the other age groups as well that they could've been separated but he chose instead to make it all 1 big group during the swiss rounds.


I'm curious. Are you saying that you went to a tournament where there were at least 16 players in the 10-under age-group?

I can understand why some PTOs are relunctant to separate the age groups. If the PTO is using TMS, after they've registered all the players into one tournament, then they find out they have enough to separate into age-pods, they have to re-register the players.

That's why I use my own software. With the push of a button, I can change a tournament from age-modified to age-separated, even after the tournament has started. That way, when I switch to age-separated for the playoffs, I don't have to drop everyone who didn't make the playoffs and do manual pairings.

Maybe in the future, PUI will add enhancements to TMS to allow age-separated pairings under the same tournament ID.

[old man]

I'm curious. Are you saying that you went to a tournament where there were at least 16 players in the 10-under age-group?
Yes I am saying that. I see now that it has been posted by the HJ there & the #'s are -
-10 = 18
11-14 = 14
15+ = 35

I'm guessing that since the 11-14 was at least 16 players they decided all 1 group. This could've easily been 3 separate age groups. We only played 5 rounds as it was for a 67 player tournament.

Everytime I go to this place there is something screwy or against PUSA policy about the way they do/run things, but yet they keep getting to have the tournaments.

[Gym Leader Blaine]

Hm...then what did SHPanda mean?

SHPanda might be confusing the Stadium Challenge tournaments with Worlds. All three of the Stadiums Challenges are planned for only one day. Which each Stadium will be a day filled with Pokemon. :rolleyes: :D

[SteveP]

M45 has said that he'll be separating the age groups at the South Region Stadium. That will shorten the tournament for at least to 10-under group since their attendance will probably be lower than the older two groups (unless M45 has them play more than the minimum number of rounds).

[SteveP]

Yes I am saying that. I see now that it has been posted by the HJ there & the #'s are -
-10 = 18
11-14 = 14
15+ = 35

I'm guessing that since the 11-14 was at least 16 players they decided all 1 group. This could've easily been 3 separate age groups. We only played 5 rounds as it was for a 67 player tournament.

Everytime I go to this place there is something screwy or against PUSA policy about the way they do/run things, but yet they keep getting to have the tournaments.


Did your PTO do best-of-3 for the Swiss rounds?

With 35 players in the largest age group, the minimum number of rounds should've been 6 according to POP recommendations. But at least the two other age groups got to have a decent number of rounds.

With 67 players in the entire tournament (using age-modified), 7 rounds is the minimum. However, do remember that the Playoffs were age-separated. So, as long as the PTO ran the minimum number of rounds based on the largest age group, I'd say that's okay.

So, I'd say your PTO shorted your 15+ players by 1 Swiss round. But since 35 is so close to 32 (5-round minimum), I'd say there's no big crime here.

[bulbasnore]

How long did your Gym Challenge run?
...
Best 2 out of 3 really is the way to go, but the rules on it are vague and it makes the day run really long.
---Nicole
WeileMom

Great topic, Nicole.

As a player, I'm personally pretty OK with either game = match or best 2 of 3 games is a match win, but either way, there needs to be a time limit, right through to the final game.

Ties in swiss (if 2 of 3) need to be allowed. Ties in finals need to be resolved. POP needs to give us some guidance on that... I know our team is working on getting it.

See you in SD, I hope!

[bulbasnore]

Just thought I'd jump in again and say that CA has the largest GC attendance to date. This does skew the time, as it did with 107 at our State event.

Also, its a fact that exactly 0 events summarized in the attendance thread to date had enough 10- to meet the 16 minimum guidline for a separate event. This means each event would have been restricted to age modified under the guidelines and thus require MORE rounds for the overall event and each age group than age separated. This suggests 1) a possible need to adjust the structure and 2) need to market the TCG to younger children if they are to remain eligible for premiere events (which I support, having been through a ban myself).

[old man]

Did your PTO do best-of-3 for the Swiss rounds?

With 35 players in the largest age group, the minimum number of rounds should've been 6 according to POP recommendations. But at least the two other age groups got to have a decent number of rounds.

With 67 players in the entire tournament (using age-modified), 7 rounds is the minimum. However, do remember that the Playoffs were age-separated. So, as long as the PTO ran the minimum number of rounds based on the largest age group, I'd say that's okay.

So, I'd say your PTO shorted your 15+ players by 1 Swiss round. But since 35 is so close to 32 (5-round minimum), I'd say there's no big crime here.

No it was a single game per round all the way through. I asked just begore the first round started if the playoffs were going to be 2 of 3 & he said no, we'd be playing till tomorrow.
The tournament was scheduled to start at noon. 1st round was at 12:30. Not too bad.
The tournament then ended about 6/ Around the same time the mall closes.
This PTO only schedules Pokemon on Sunday and it always gives us a shorter time.

[meganium45]

You do what needs to be done to keep things moving.

I will have my efficiency shoes on this Saturday, with Registration starting at 11:00 (store open), and the store closing at 7:00 p.m.

I am confident we will get through it, but we will need to keep moving all day.

I am considering holding lunch during registration, so we do not have to take a break.

Talk with you all soon.

M45

[Chrisbo]

I have noticed that in many of the larger venues, one age group is sometimes significantly larger than the others. For example, the LA Gym Challenge had 67 total players, broken down as follows: (10 & Under=8,11-14=20,15&up=39).

What about the idea of combining the two lesser-attended age groups and running two separate tourneys? In the example above, the 10 & under plus the 11-14 could be a tournament of 31 players, and the 15+ would be a separate tourney of 39 players. Looks a lot more balanced this way, plus you can eliminate at least 30min by reducing the recommended minimum number of rounds.

I realize that there are probably no provisions for this in the PTO Guidelines, but as long as we're talking potential options I feel that it's one worth discussing.

Just a thought,
- CHRISBO

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

What about the idea of combining the two smaller age groups and running two separate tourneys. In the example above, the 10 & under plus the 11-14 would be a tournament of 31 players, and the 15+ would be a separate tourney of 39 players. Looks a lot more balanced this way, huh?

Interesting, we must be on the same wavelength because I sent an e-mail to PUI earlier today asking if I could do exactly what you described. I'll let everyone know what they say.

BDS

[Sensei]

For example, the LA Gym Challenge had 67 total players, broken down as follows: (10 & Under=8,11-14=20,15&up=39).

What about the idea of combining the two lesser-attended age groups and running two separate tourneys? In the example above, the 10 & under plus the 11-14 could be a tournament of 31

WOW! 8+20=31! You should be a Math Teacher Chris!!! ;) :D :p

Seriously though, I did this for my States. It worked great.

`Sensei

[DaytonGymLeader]

We've done this since POP said you could run Age Pods. The players LOVE it. Plus it makes for a shorter day believe it or not.

[SteveP]

Interesting, we must be on the same wavelength because I sent an e-mail to PUI earlier today asking if I could do exactly what you described. I'll let everyone know what they say.

If this is in regards to your West Stadium, I'd say to separate the age groups regardless of the attendance. I believe that's what M45 is planning on doing at the South Stadium. As long as there are at least 8 players (minimum sanction-able tournament), I'd say you could separate the age groups regardless whether there's 16 in each age group. JMO.

And, if you feel compelled to strictly follow POP's guidelines, you could have GLBlaine sanction 3 separate tournaments for the West Stadium, one for each age group. That way, you can separate the age groups with a minimum of 8 players instead of 16.

[SteveP]

For example, the LA Gym Challenge had 67 total players, broken down as follows: (10 & Under=8,11-14=20,15&up=39).

What about the idea of combining the two lesser-attended age groups and running two separate tourneys? In the example above, the 10 & under plus the 11-14 could be a tournament of 31

WOW! 8+20=31! You should be a Math Teacher Chris!!! ;) :D :p

Seriously though, I did this for my States. It worked great.


Not something I would've done (combine the 10-under with the 11-14), but it's certainly better than age-modified, IMO. But then again, if you only had 5-6 players in the 10-under, I can understand why you did it. With at least 8 players, I would've separated them all. JMO.

[Chrisbo]

WOW! 8+20=31! You should be a Math Teacher Chris!!! ;) :D :p
Well let's see, 11 minus 14 equals negative 3, so 20+8-(11-14)=31, right? Um yeah, that's how I got the number... :rolleyes:

Hmm, maybe that explains my daughters' math grades in school. >_<, :p

Ha ha, :D
- CHRISBO