what will be THE tech against Empoleon MD?

[revdjweb]

My vote is for Rayquaza ex. sure it's an ex worth two prizes but it has no weakness, it's great if you are behind. with lake boundary it can ohko empoleon and it already has an established tradition with GG.

it's either that or Dusknoir & warp point, even more of a staple with GG decks. i know Empoleon players are all geeked up about the kind of damage it can do but unless you've got glaceon lvl x or a pokemon holding a cessation crystal reserved on your bench i don't see how Dusknoir is not going to be a total nightmare.

Of course eeveelutions will run jolteon while both garchomp and porygon-z just need the right kinds of energy.

[Regis_Neo]

For some reason, I just don't see Empoleon being big...

Either way, G&G probably beats it anyways, and if Water really rises that fast, Electivire could increase also.

[Ra2xse]

Tech against Empoloen? Use 1-1 Dugtrio CG so Empoleon can't Dual Splash

[orangematt]

Tech against Empoloen? Use 1-1 Dugtrio CG so Empoleon can't Dual Splash

YEA!

Or a 1-0-1 Bastiodon!~

[(TYranitarFReak)]

Electivire?

[Magic_Umbreon]

If the Empoleon player uses Latilock, Bastiodon and Dugtrio are not Worthwhile.

Electrode is another interesting option but most of the useful lightning pokémon need lightning specific energy to attack at all.

Really inconvenient and difficult to work. A reliable way is to take advantage of the bench with Steven's Advice and Crawdaunt ex or Dusknoir. As long as you can prevent bench damage and its surf 100 from KOing you should be able to avoid a one hit KO. Other options include outspeeding it, or taking advantage of the special energies. Shuckle or Crystal Beach. Very tough card though, archetype material.

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

electrode is good for plenty of decks but i don't plan on teching to beat empoleon

[bugsbite]

Electivire?

I would guess a good electivire deck would do the job, I have some plans for the fellow after the dawn is upon us.

[Scipio]

Dusknoir anyone?

[ShadowGuard]

Dugtrio and Dusknoir.

Anything else mentioned here won't work or isn't worth the slots.

Electivire won't come back as long as G/G is big.
Ray ex needs Lake Boundary to OHKO and brings two prized cards if knocked out. Remember you opponent can snipe it in late game.

Shuckle will not stop it, doing a little poison as attack while Empoleon will snipe the bench. Leafeon will not prevent that either, but it can do some damage and make attacks against it ineffective (resistance & Leaf Guard).

Crystal Beach isn't a real problem for Empoleon because even if it will play DRE and Scramble most of the times, it doesn't need them to run well (unlike G/G, Infernape and some other decks).

[ryanvergel]

Gallade.

[ShadowGuard]

Gallade.
Gallade flips 4 prize cards for 1 Empoleon and Sonic Blade doesn't work because of Holon Energy WP.

[SPARTA]

Gallade flips 4 prize cards for 1 Empoleon and Sonic Blade doesn't work because of Holon Energy WP.

Flip one prize hit it for 80 then Plox for the KO, draw the faceup prize, and lock them out of their powers.
Why does everyone think Gallade ALWAYS needs to either OHKO or Sonic Blade....

Incidently, If you use Holon WP then you can't use Scramble and Empoleon Lv X becomes useless.

[ShadowGuard]

Flip one prize hit it for 80 then Plox for the KO, draw the faceup prize, and lock them out of their powers.
Why does everyone think Gallade ALWAYS needs to either OHKO or Sonic Blade....

Incidently, If you use Holon WP then you can't use Scramble and Empoleon Lv X becomes useless.
Holon WP is only a tech so you still can attach 3 Water or a Scramble.

If you don't OHKO Empoleon, it can attack another turn. Usually with first attack it does 30 to your Gardevoir and Gallade, and without KOing Empoleon or sending it to bench you can almost be sure to lose either Gallade (100 to active) or Gardevoir (in case it is not leveled up) if Empoleon manages to get Lv.X and a third water energy.

[SPARTA]

Holon WP is only a tech so you still can attach 3 Water or a Scramble.

If you don't OHKO Empoleon, it can attack another turn. Usually with first attack it does 30 to your Gardevoir and Gallade, and without KOing Empoleon or sending it to bench you can almost be sure to lose either Gallade (100 to active) or Gardevoir (in case it is not leveled up) if Empoleon manages to get Lv.X and a third water energy.

You will have to excuse my lack of fear at my opponent going Aggro Empoleon, since a good Empoleon deck should be relying on Scrambles. If they go Aggro vs me, Gallade is more powerful and will crush them. If you decide to frag my Gallade, I can bring another one up and do the same to you. If you hit my benched Gallade, I bring up Garde and say "lol plox" then Gallade finishes you. Go Aggro vs Gallade with just Empoleon and you will die.

Incidently, since you should be Scrambleing, Holon WP becoes a worthless tech, since Sonic Blade isn't even that scary.

[ShadowGuard]

You will have to excuse my lack of fear at my opponent going Aggro Empoleon, since a good Empoleon deck should be relying on Scrambles. If they go Aggro vs me, Gallade is more powerful and will crush them. If you decide to frag my Gallade, I can bring another one up and do the same to you. If you hit my benched Gallade, I bring up Garde and say "lol plox" then Gallade finishes you. Go Aggro vs Gallade with just Empoleon and you will die.

Incidently, since you should be Scrambleing, Holon WP becoes a worthless tech, since Sonic Blade isn't even that scary.

OK lets say I attack first. I won't do so if you got better setup than me, so when I attack first, I already have Claydol and a second Empoleon can be in play after next round (unless you Wager & lock). You still have your starter active but already Gardy and Gallade on your bench, I have Empoleon with 2 Water energy and attack both Gardy and Gallade for 30 each.

Now you can choose to bring Gallade and Psychic Cut for KO. If you do, the next Empoleon will attack with Scramble. Filling the Bench is no problem, so Gallade is knocked out after that und there is absolutely no way to OHKO the Active Empoleon (if you don't manage to get a second Gallade, 2HKO is impossile as well).

Another option after the first attack of Empoleon is to bring Gardy as active Pokémon. Play TGW and Psychic Lock, leaving my Empoleon with 50-60 dmg. I will most likely get a third energy and knock out Gardevoir even if it levels up.

Then the third thing is (like you mentioned before) to face only one Prized Card with Gallade or Sonic Blade Empoleon. Answer could be upgrade to Lv.X and snipe to Gardevoir (in case of Sonic Blade I'll have to bring it back active with WP or by reatreating a Pokémon that already had energy attached). The damaged Empoleon is lost next turn because Psychic Cut KOs no matter what, but you lost Gardevoir which is crucial in early game and you didn't lock so I'll get my second Empoleon in time.

[BANGINBOX]

I will say at best GG or PLOX (whatever) has at best a 50-50 against the new empoeleon. Especially if it runs the aerodactyl. I personally am not concerned about GG as it has been tested with dyer results.

As far as a tech against empoleon? I like electrode more than any other lightning poke at this time. It does not give them scramble advantage but allows you to pull ahead in the energy attachments. It also has a solid attack that keeps some of your opponents attackers at bay.

This I feel will be far more effective than dugtrio, cloyster, ray....

Jimmy

[Flygon999]

I think Dusknoir and Cradaunt ex [HP] would be the best techs. Or a Rayquaza ex [DF] tech.

[mca3]

Well, what about the Cess. Crystal-ran Empo decks, like mine??? I mean Those Empo decks should NOT be overlooked, I dont know why I am stating this, because CC is MY best friend in most my Empo decks, lol!!! G/G doesnt have a great matchup against Empo, I usually run 4 WPs, and a Fast set-up or a Starter like Sableye CG or Lapras, which helps with set-up or stall!!! I mean, I dont understand why Empo is getting picked on so much, I mean OF COURSE I am running him, but there are other BIGGER threats in MD, in my opinion!!!

[SPARTA]

Well, what about the Cess. Crystal-ran Empo decks, like mine??? I mean Those Empo decks should NOT be overlooked, I dont know why I am stating this, because CC is MY best friend in most my Empo decks, lol!!! G/G doesnt have a great matchup against Empo, I usually run 4 WPs, and a Fast set-up or a Starter like Sableye CG or Lapras, which helps with set-up or stall!!! I mean, I dont understand why Empo is getting picked on so much, I mean OF COURSE I am running him, but there are other BIGGER threats in MD, in my opinion!!!

Cess means you cannot setup with Claydol, Holon WP means you may as well not run Scramble. That means that you are totally reliant on Draw cards in order to setup, and GG can easily use those draw cards. Holon WP means you may as well not use Emp Lv X (if you don't have a WP on an Emp, it will get Sonic Bladed, thus leveling up would be foolish. And placing 4 energy on a Emp is silly). Phione bieng out means GG kinda laughs at your Cess because they can setup anyway, and it also means that Wager+Warp can easily rip you apart. Aggro Pacharisu isn't fun either, a Basic nailing you for 70 is just not right.

Cess on Empoleon was decent last format, but now that we have so many ways of setting up without the use of powers, it just kinda fell over and died.

[mca3]

Well, everyone I have played with Cess. Empo has ALWAYS had some kinda problem, unless they Didnt Rely on powers too. I mean Cess cant be looked down on by NO means, even on Empo!!!

I ran Mismagius/Gallade with Cess, and Everyone I played had a Hard time setting up, unless I could not lock it in Early!!

[SPARTA]

Well, everyone I have played with Cess. Empo has ALWAYS had some kinda problem, unless they Didnt Rely on powers too. I mean Cess cant be looked down on by NO means, even on Empo!!!

I ran Mismagius/Gallade with Cess, and Everyone I played had a Hard time setting up, unless I could not lock it in Early!!

As I said, it was decent. Having Phione in the format means they can just kinda "LOL" at your Cess ans setup anyway. It may have worked before. Try it now, see how far you get with agroup of at least half decent players.

[mca3]

I am from NC, which is a VERY Competitve area, maybe in the Top 3 Toughest in US, so I do play with Great players!!! Maybe this Next set will change, it will, but I mean you have to Waste turns just to use Phoine, I just dont see it being THAT effective, but still good. Empo will Still make a Splash on the Format, or I will at least try to make him!!!

[vanderbilt_grad]

Just IMHO cess isn't only about killing setup this format.

Cess negates Dugtrio/Cloyster d/Bastidon type counters. Cess lets you put down Ho-oh for good. In short Cess is as much of an attack aid as disruption tool.

Cess makes also it harder for Dusknor & such to counter the big bench.

[SPARTA]

Cess also prevents you from setting up. I would sooner work Aerodactyl into my deck and be able to setup while hurting you.

I am from NC, which is a VERY Competitve area, maybe in the Top 3 Toughest in US, so I do play with Great players!!! Maybe this Next set will change, it will, but I mean you have to Waste turns just to use Phoine, I just dont see it being THAT effective, but still good. Empo will Still make a Splash on the Format, or I will at least try to make him!!!
No where near the Top 3 toughest. FL, Great Lakes, Cali, and Texas beat you out there (no insult meant to any players from NC or SC), so give me a break. The only time the Carolinas are filled with top notch competition is when other players from FL and such go to there rather than their own neighborhood tournoments.

I never said Empoleon wouldn't be awesome, it will be, just not with cards like cess that kill your setup completely.

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

you mentioned how you ran cess with gallade mismagius, that's a little different, they are not +30 weak to a pokemon that is in most tier 1 decks, that does 40 and looks at your hand if you have a tool so that's not the same

as for phione, that's a really great point cess is definately annoying but it's not even just that cess just isn't good anymore, i've beaten a deck that got all 4 cessation crystals out at states with a deck with no windstorm and no pachirisu, it's just an annoyance and i think the majority of the good players would rather find other ways to annoy their opponent with the space

empoleon is an insane pokemon but i really don't plan on teching for it i'm just keeping my eye on it

[fragnito]

you cant tech against it, but when you run into it, you take it like a man
and more than likely there a more than a few ways to beat any deck you play

[Papi/Manny]

Spam with pachi. :P

[Chu51595]

Quaza EX works late game for eating Empoleon up and Dusknoir...duh. Empo IMO is good, but not good enough for mainstream use, just cuz there are too many good techs, Cess. is eaten up by Pachi and others and if Empo becomes big, then Electivire and others will just eat it up later.

Honestly, after the rotation, since GG dies, I predict....very much Electivire running around to counter Empo and especially Kingdra.

[yoyofsho16]

1. empoleon wont ever be a big deck to worry for.
2. Good 'ol pachi does 40 to it straight up, and if its an empoleon with cessation, then it does a whopping 70 for one energy!

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Flip one prize hit it for 80 then Plox for the KO, draw the faceup prize, and lock them out of their powers.

uhh more like flip one for 70. it isnt too common that gallade will charge w/o dre.

[mca3]

I ran Empo/Sableye CG, which keeps Pachy from Discarding MY Cess and from them Setting up. There are ALL kinds of ways to run Cess!!!

[Magnechu]

lol@anyone saying Pachi>Empoleon

I promote Empoleon w/ Cess, Split Bomb (60)
Pachi comes up and hits me for 70
Empoleon Split Bombs (120)
Pachi hits for 40
Empoleon Split Bombs (180)
Pachi KOs Empoleon
Promote another Empoleon, Scramble or not, Split Bomb again (240)

You just gave me a free 240 damage wherever I want. lol

[ryanvergel]

I would normally just pachi for 70 and then hit for 60 (gardy or gallade do it easily, as does almost any pokemon, really). I think it would be stupid to 3hko an empoleon with a pachi. Pachi's attack should be used to do 70 or a critical 40, not to just sit there and attack.

[Black Mamba]

They get one Gallade out, kill something, then you take out Gallade (scramblo if necessary), lay a cess, and snipe their ralts to death. They do Pachi for 70... aaand then you kill that too. Being psychic locked? Playing Empoleon in a deck with powers? Puhlease.

[Abyss]

i love pokegym kids that rely on scramble

[vanderbilt_grad]

It also has to be pointed out that Patchi + Lake Boundary will OHKO Empoleon with Cess. It's not that Patchi > Empoleon ... it's just that it's a fair chink in Empoleon's armor that a common starter can do things like that to it.

Just for the record I still like Empoleon ... you just have to be a bit more careful with him than I like.

[Prime]

It also has to be pointed out that Patchi + Lake Boundary will OHKO Empoleon with Cess. It's not that Patchi > Empoleon ... it's just that it's a fair chink in Empoleon's armor that a common starter can do things like that to it.

Just for the record I still like Empoleon ... you just have to be a bit more careful with him than I like.

It doesn't OHKO Empoleon with Lake Boundary out. Pachi does 40 damage, and normally +30 more because of Empoleon's weakness. If Empoleon's weakness is 2x, thats 40 x 2 = 80. Empoleon has more than 80 HP.

[vanderbilt_grad]

lol ... thinking too fast to correctness. Thank's Prime.

[Rai]

It also has to be pointed out that Patchi + Lake Boundary will OHKO Empoleon with Cess. It's not that Patchi > Empoleon ... it's just that it's a fair chink in Empoleon's armor that a common starter can do things like that to it.

I still find it amazing that playing Lake Boundary without a tool attached to Empoleon REDUCES the damage that Pachirisu can do to Empoleon. Instead of 40 damage per shot, it becomes only 20.

[ryanvergel]

I still find it amazing that playing Lake Boundary without a tool attached to Empoleon REDUCES the damage that Pachirisu can do to Empoleon. Instead of 40 damage per shot, it becomes only 20.

Where's Forrest at?

[SPARTA]

Where's Forrest at?

:lol:

[mca3]

Empoleon with Cess is Still Very playable in MY book, but I am going to love the Empoleon/GlacionLv.X Combo after Pre-Release!!! Like I said before there are ALL kinds of ways to play the King Penguin!!!

[jrwaxman]

Clydol is too important with Empoleon builds. You can have good games without it but during a 7-10 round tournament if you don't play Claydol you are usually going to run into 2-4 games where hand size will kill you. Especially with all the wagering going on. I would love to run him with Cess. Crystal but seems to only make sense as a tech when you have everything set up and by then the opponent usually does too.

[Flygon999]

Jolteon in an Eeveelutions deck.

[SPARTA]

^Leafeon already works for hurting Emp, Jolteon is a waste of space.

[jrwaxman]

Just the fact that people are talking about Teching against Empoleon already means good things for the format.

[Ultimate Dusknoir]

I play Electivire and It's sad I do Giga Impact or Discharge every turn. If I want, I will do 120 +30 damage each turn against Empoleon. I would never use Empoleon, I'd rather run Chatot.

[SPARTA]

I play Electivire and It's sad I do Giga Impact or Discharge every turn. If I want, I will do 120 +30 damage each turn against Empoleon. I would never use Empoleon, I'd rather run Chatot.

Then Empoleon comes up with a Cessation and a Scramble, wagers you, and does 100 to KO you, making you locked out of your powers and unable to Giga Impact again next turn. Plus, Vire is really... bad.
Incidently, Chatot is also weak to lightning :tongue:

[Rambo1000]

Just the fact that people are talking about Teching against Empoleon already means good things for the format.

they should tech an extra energy or 2!!!!

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

i love pokegym kids that rely on scramble

LOL

[~`Flygon`~]

I play Electivire and It's sad I do Giga Impact or Discharge every turn. If I want, I will do 120 +30 damage each turn against Empoleon. I would never use Empoleon, I'd rather run Chatot.

vire is dead,I mean yea but the deck is so power based that G&G just laughs at it,but the he wouldnt have to do Giga Impact,jjust LVx,then attack for 80 and invic for a turn,then ko next turn with anything else.Simple.

[jrwaxman]

[QUOTE=Rambo1000;1094022]they should tech an extra energy or 2!!!!
[i]

Zach- TOO FUNNY! ROFL! But that was so sad and unexpected. I am sure I will be in for it next time we meet. Hopefully it will only an 8K whipping though. lol

[Ra2xse]

I'll use 1-0-1 Dusknoir. Empoleon need's big bench and Dusknoir gives 3 of bench space.

[Phazon Elite]

I'll use 1-0-1 Dusknoir. Empoleon need's big bench and Dusknoir gives 3 of bench space.

Emp still 2HKOs pretty much everything with a bench of three.

[Ra2xse]

Maybe, but Empoleon get's 2HKOed also, (Gallade's....)

[DarthPika]

Dusknoir is a bad tech.

[Lordofflareons]

meggy d!

[Muscovy Level X]

Empoleon MD? That's not the sort of card you'd worry about countering.

[SPARTA]

I'll use 1-0-1 Dusknoir. Empoleon need's big bench and Dusknoir gives 3 of bench space.

Empoleon Empoleon Empoleon Claydol.
I count 4 pokemon right there.

[Papi/Manny]

Yeah seriously. What are you guys playing empoleon with? 3-2-3 Omastar? haha good luck with that.

[Ultimate Dusknoir]

but I like Chatot's Tone deaf. MMMMMMM HHHMMMM!!! I still think Chatot Is a very good card, better than Empoleon.

[Nevermore]

Electrode SW OHKOs it and makes up for the sacrifice with a free rainbow energy.

[SPARTA]

Electrode SW OHKOs it and makes up for the sacrifice with a free rainbow energy.

Indeed, Electrode is a good Anti-Empoleon card. The only real problem I see with it is it ONLY counters Empoleon.
Ryan Vergel pointed this out earlier in this thread, good job on bieng the only person to comment on it.

[vanderbilt_grad]

Actually I had good success with Electrode & other stuff vs G&G in testing. It was faster than them energy attachment wise much of the time and it depleted their ability to filp prizes. But that was before Patchi. Patchi just lets other decks get setup too fast for Trode to keep up.