groudon can easily beat kyogre

[groudon]

everybody says groudons weakness is water and that kyogre has the advantage and its true so is groudons special attack and defense weak so any special attack would not even harm kyogre but groudons attack is huge and kyogres defense is weak so what about a powerful attack HYPERBEAM WOULD BLOW UP KYOGRE LEAVING HIS SKELETON and dont say theat hyperbeam is special because i read its phisycal one and kyogre is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!

[invisible]

um, no, i don't really think so. i think kyogre would survive that, and KO groudon the next two free turns he has. and first of all, you'd have better bets using earthquake, since the damage is the same anyway, (100 x 1.5 = 150) because of STAB, and you don't lose a turn.

[White Gryphon]

Hyper Beam really isn't that great... It leaves Groudon with a lost turn to recharge. That would give Kyogre an extra turn to drown out Groudon with Hydro Pump... That and you've got to consider Groudon's speed.

[Squirtle007]

The funny thing is whatever Pokemon is released 2nd has the huge advantage, as its power will work. Earthquake would be the better choice here though.

[PokePop]

Welcome to the boards.

Since you are discussing a Game Boy battle, that would go in the Electronic Games forum.

Also, please seperate your sentences out with periods and punctuation.
It makes if very hard to read when it runs on like that.

Thanks.

Moving to e-games now...

[Sunflorazumarill]

Actually, Groudon and Kyogre have the SAME speed! They both have a speed that I would say would be anywhere from 216 to 248 at Level 100 on average.

[Kyogre]

My friend and I tried this, and our guys were the same level. I used Ice Beam (Super Effective) and he used Hyper Beam. His attack did get me down to yellow but my Ice Beam got him down to red on the first shot then finished him off on the re-charge.

[Spectreon]

As far as I have seen, the only OHKO is only if Rain is going and Surf/Pump gets used. There DF/SD are high enough to defend 1 attack, normally. The exception may be if 1 AT/SA is maxed, while the corosponding DF/SD is not raised at all. But that is highly unlikely. It is to hard for these Pokemon to get aOHKO without aid. Critical hits, or Rain+STAB on Water for Kyogre.

[Fawkes0126]

I have to say that I think Groudon would not be able to beat Kyogre, especially if Kyogre's power is Drizzle, making his water type moves, i.e Hydro Pump, possibly surf, etc., much stronger. Also, once you take Hyper Beam's power into consideration, you must admit that if the two were at the same level, even if Groudon used Hyper Beam, it's not gonna do much.

[Sea Crobat]

Groundon would have to come out second to beat Kyrogre. Solar Beam is much better then.

[invisible]

not really again... that would mean that he would be slower, attacking second. his sp atk is low compared to his atk, and kyogres sp def is high. plus, solarbeam doesn't get stab. i've got a theory though. groudon comes out second, with them having the same speed. if this happens, i think they alternate first turns. so he'll survive the first hit, since it's sunny. he uses light screen on first turn then earthquake/solarbeam on the second turn. there won't be a OHKO, but kyogre might not kill groudon with the second hit, because of the light screen. hmm...

[groudon]

but hyper beam is a phisycal attack and with the attack power of groudon and the low defense of kyogre i still say that it would lose the battle one hit

[groudon]

Hyper Beam really isn't that great... It leaves Groudon with a lost turn to recharge. That would give Kyogre an extra turn to drown out Groudon with Hydro Pump... That and you've got to consider Groudon's speed.
yes but hyper beam has 150 atack power and groudons attack is high and hyper beam is phiswcal and give groudon quick claw and he would attack first

[dkates]

In Groudon's case, Earthquake is just as powerful as Hyper Beam, without the lost turn, as invisible said earlier. Even so, though, you would at the very least need something else (*coughhelditemcough*) upping your attack to have a good chance of getting that OHKO.

[Red5bv06]

Let's put this into a stat calculator:

Ok, Kyogre's Max HP is 404.
Kyogres Lowest HP is 341.
Kyogre's Max Defense is 306.
Kyogre's Lowest Defense Possible is 195.
Groudon's Max Attack is 438.
Now, if Groudon uses Hyper Beam (or Earthquake) against Kyogre, how much damage will it do?

This is, for the benefit of the Groudon player, assuming max attack on Groudon (which isn't very likely).

Against the max stat, max HP Kyogre, between 155 and 182. Summary: 3HKO
Against the max stat, minimum HP Kyogre, between 155 and 182. Summary: 2-3HKO, depending on how much damage.
Against the lowest stat, max HP Kyogre, between 219 and 257. Summary: 2HKO
Against lowest stat, minimum HP Kyogre, between 219 and 257. Summary: 2HKO

So, if you have trained the perfect Groudon (meaning 31 Attack IV (good luck), 255 Attack EVs, and beneficial personality), the best you can hope for is a 2HKO, but if the Kyogre player has also done his research, you could be stuck with 3HKOs, and we know Groudon won't last that long.

So, to end this conversation, Groudon cannot OHKO Kyogre under any circumstances.

[invisible]

actually, there is ONE way. and that's if groudon is a lot of levels higher than kyogre. :lol:

[Spectreon]

You forget critical hits........

if it would normally 2HKO, a 1 CHKO is possible

Just use a Scope Lense to up it, and like 1 outta 10 battles or so you can win... see......

Drought/Drizzle as far as I can tell isnt effected by who is quicker/slower, it is based on who is released second, ie who is in port 2! Besides the Speeds for Groudon and Kyogre have the exact (or at worst almost exact) ratio depending on EV, DV, and Natures.

[Eevee234]

There might be another way. Does Sheer Cold or Fissure work if they're the same level???

[Canadian Bacon]

if groudon is released second, then just one solarbeam would kill kyogre, if it didnt i highly dought that kyogre (unless he has sheer cold and it hits) could KO groudon before the second turn, and his life, is over.

[Spectreon]

OHKO moves like Fissure/Sheer Cold work only if they are same level or lower.

[Red5bv06]

How could one solarbeam KO Kyogre?

Base Damage is 120 (not the 150 used in my example).
Groudon's SpA is lower than Att.
Kyogre's SpD is higher than Def.

Using logic, this would tell you that you cannot OHKO Kyogre with Groudon. (barring a CH of course)

[GuardianTIM]

Although I'm not sure of the individual stats of Groudon and Kyogre, if Drought was on (sunny), and Groudon used Solarbeam, the relative power would be 120x2=240 (because of Kyogre's weakness to grass.) Earthquake would be 100X1.5=150 (Groudon is Ground type, so same-type would increase it's power.)
So, if all the stats were identical (Atk, SpAtk, Def & SpDef, but I know they're not), then Solarbeam would be the way to go (1.6 times as powerful).
I'm too tired to figure the rest of it out (including stats), but perhaps someone else wants to give it a go?

[Red5bv06]

Whoops, how could I pass up the weakness??

Again, benefit of the doubt goes to Groudon player.
Ok, Kyogre's lowest possible special defense is 284.
Groudon's highest possible special attack is 328.

Putting this into the formula gives you 236 damage.
Still a 2HKO, maybe a safer bet than Earthquake, I dunno. We are getting closer to an answer. Keep the questions coming.

[Tego]

Hyper Beam is a horrible move. It only works well when used by Slaking, because he has to skip a turn anyway (his ability forces him to).

[invisible]

ok, what if solarbeam was used, and groudon was holding the miracleseed? that'd make it a bit stronger.

[GuardianTIM]

That's not a bad idea. Instead of 120x2=240, it'd be 120x2x1.1=264ish. A small improvement, but nice nonetheless.
However, I think Miracleseed isn't as useful as ScopeLens, FocusBand, or ShellBell in this situation. I usually leave MiracleSeed to the grass-types only.

[invisible]

well, we're working on solutions, so i'm trying out theories... that might work... because we already said that critical hits would already be one solution, we're looking for those that aren't critical hits.

[Spectreon]

Well, there are the OHKO attacks, Fissure for Groudon, Sheer Cold for Kyogre. Personally I think there stats are balanced enough, I think Either one would have difficulty knocking out the other in one hit. With the exception of Surf/Hydro/Water Spout + Rain + Stab + Weakness. there is something about a high powered water move with a x6 multiplier that just screams OHKO. Unfortunately for Groudon, the only attacks Kyogre is actually weak to, (Lightnig and Grass) Groudons stats are not up to snuff. I hate that they tripped out Groudon to learn Special type attacks and support them so well with only mediocre stats (well, for a legendary I mean)

Outta curiousity, what is the damage done for a Blizzard done by Kyogre figuring in highest SA and lowest SD? Would it still take 2 turns?

[Red5bv06]

Miracle Seed certainly would increase the damage, but not nearly enough to OHKO. Good thinking.

Ok, just for fun ;):
Kyogre's Max Special Attack is 438.
Groudon's Lowest Special Defense is 194.

Putting this into the damage formula gives you between 390 and 459. So, the odds are you will OHKO Groudon with Blizzard. There is a small chance that your opponent has a 31 DV in HP and 252 EVs in HP (who does that?), and thus 404 HP, so you only have about an 80% chance of OHKO, but that is not very likely. So, you can depend on getting a OHKO with Blizzard.

Looks like I'm becoming the resident stat man around here ;)

[Pok'emaniac]

Groudon and Kgyore are to evenly matched, bet it would be a draw in battle.

[Latios]

How do i breed the starter pokemon? :confused: DarkGreen

[Latios]

If somone is interested in some advice for a pokemon team.....come and talk with me in msn.My e-mail is miguel_nunao@hotmail.com