Pikachu's level

[Burninating_Torchic]

Any of you guys notice Pikachu's level? It would have to be at least level 200, I mean, come on! It beats all kinds of things that no normal Pikachu could ever beat. And it like never loses. It's like some invincible poke-god or something. What's your opinions?

[Professor_Chris]

My opinion is you're way off base. Pikachu seems to have gotten weaker since the journey into Hoenn. Think about Ash's first battles in the Hoenn region...Pikachu didn't do so hot...especially against Vigaroth...so, my opinion is, Pikachu is past his prime. ^_~

[Prime]

I agree highly with Prof. Chris. You would think that Pikachu being in so many battles would be at a high level but when it loses to pokemon like Vigaroth and Eevee, it makes you think.

[Burninating_Torchic]

I don't watch the Advanced Season TV Show, I'm at martial arts class when it comes on. And I'm too lazy to tape it. But up until it(so you say), Pikachu was like level a billion...the only time I remember it losing was against surge's raichu, in which it made a come back in a rematch, and sabrina's abra(What the crap), in which this was because Sabrina's abra was more uber then any abra should be.

[Water Pokemon Master]

The Anime's levels are not the same as the Gameboy levels, so we don't really know what level Pikachu is at.

Also, about the Vigoroth thing. You must keep in mind that Ash did not know what to expect from Vigoroth, and since they were in a whole new region with new Pokemon, they didn't know what to expect. Also, Pikachu was probably still beaten up from the damage the magnet did to him.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

WPM, you almost had an easily counterable argument, up until you said the magnet thing. I would have to say that foriegness has nothing to do with battles. Think about it in terms of the video game. WHen you first encounter a Poké that you have never seen before, maybe for a turn or so do you fumble a little, but after that, it's like any other battle; the unknown of the Poké is no longer a factor, so that's where i rule out that theory.

I never considered the magnet thing though. Since that is still a solid possibility, if I were a judge i would have to rule in favor of you because there is some reasonable doubt in Pika's abilities due to the magnet. But still, the magnet card is still a frail defense, then again, I can't think of a reason to counter it besides: "well, it could have not drained him to the point of making him weak enough to lose to Vigoroth."

So, if we were to ignore the magnet thing, I'd say: "there is absolutely no reason for Pika ot have lost that battle since he has had waaaay to much experience beforehand to have lost to that vigoroth."

So there you go. Well played, WPM!

[ILikeAnime]

Pikachu has been losing some battles he should've won, but I think most of the time it was just that he was caught off guard, like that time with the Torchic. XD

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

I don't think the caught off guard card works, though. Maybe for one attack you can get caught off guard, but there's the rest of the battle to consider. No way he'll get caught off guard for an entire battle, causing him to lose. It just doesn't work!

[Water Pokemon Master]

Why don't you give us a theory, Lugia? :rolleyes:

[Mr. Grass]

You could take into consideration the fact that Pikachu's opponents have some experience as well. Norman is a Gym Leader, which is theoretically a good. I think you guys are also trying a little hard to forge a hard link between the videogame and the anime. The anime has strayed from the game in several points. Misty's Poliwhirl evolved into a Politoed by going into its pokeball with the King's Rock without being traded. Pikachu's Thunderbolt could be powered up enough to damage Ground types. AJ (early on episode guy) was able to train his Sandshrew so it was no longer weak to water attacks.
That being said, I don't think they're staying too strict to the idea of leveling. Yes, they refer to raising levels in episodes like the School of Hard Knocks, but it's not a huge part of the show. We don't have trainers keeping track of the level of their pokemon constantly. It's just sort of a loose idea. Perhaps it's like they seek to keep their pokemon's leves high, like the way athletes try to stay in top form.

[Prime]

I'm thinking that pikachu might be lv 50 but even at lv 50, an unevolved pokemon will probably lose to an evolved pokemon at lv 50.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

I think Mr. Grass wins this one, great ideas! His logic is great in explaining the failure.

As for WPM, I'm not up here with the sole purpose of raining on peoples' parade or just trying to disprove everyone I see, I'm just searching for a logical defense of why Pikachu failed. I don't have a theory on this topic, because i don't see how Pikachu could concievably lose to Vigoroth. But, like i said earlier, if i had to accept what i saw, Mr. Grass's explanation would explain the loss.

But, still, i see no real reason why Pikachu should fail to a 5th level gym leader...as for a fictitious reason, I would go for Grass's explanation.

Remember that one thread where a guy (Hypno something or other, i believe) would ask for questions from the audience about Pokémon stuff, and he'd try to answer them in scientific terms and stuff, like explaining why eevee evolve in response to stones and why Snorlax don't destroy the world's ecosystems, and how Team Rocket started out, and stuff. So, if i were to approach this particular problem in that fasion, I'd stick with the Grass Man. Otherwise, I'd go with the there's-no-way-Pikachu-should-lose response.

Thanks for reading.

[Bigpoppabeatdown]

why does pikachu lose to some pokemon???? there is no secret hidden level to account for, the real reason is right in front of you!!!!

it's a cartoon!!!! with writers and stuff!!!!

they make pikachu lose because if pikachu always won, it'd send a message to children that you MUST WIN or be a failure!!!!!

pikachu loses in order to make everybody else feel better about losing and to show them that no matter how strong u are, there are always people stronger!!!!

just like the dragonball series...... when was the last time somebody weaker tried to invade and attack goku??? it doesn't fit the moral themes being broadcasted


i know, i'm just a bit cynical, but whatever =P

[Professor_Chris]

just like the dragonball series...... when was the last time somebody weaker tried to invade and attack goku??? it doesn't fit the moral themes being broadcasted

Because if someone weaker tried to invade...it'd be more boring than it already is. :p

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

1 reason Pika loses to Viga.Remember when Ash started Hoen he said he wanted to start over?I geuss Pika kinda did to.So it still would be strong enough to take down 1st GL but Norman is suposed to be 6th GL but Ash does not know that.

[Professor_Chris]

1 reason Pika loses to Viga.Remember when Ash started Hoen he said he wanted to start over?I geuss Pika kinda did to.So it still would be strong enough to take down 1st GL but Norman is suposed to be 6th GL but Ash does not know that.
So...Pikachu...purposefully made itself weaker... o_O And...how did it do this? Or did it lose on purpose? In which case...that would be extremely disgraceful...to Pikachu and Ash both. Thats quite an absurd theory... ._.

[Burninating_Torchic]

I like that theory! Pikachu got so strong it rolled over back to being really weak! XD

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Well I think part of the reason is for people new to the show Ash starts over with just Pika and it is weaker to.If it won new show people would be wow a starter that has only battled Team R beat a GL with a stage 1 poke?!

[Masamune156]

One thing you have to consider in the show is how different a battle will be than in the games. There other things that can infulence the match (i.e. the magnet). In the show it takes alot more than just brute strength...

Also... Didn't anyone consider the fact that Norman was just a really good Gym Leader?

[Flareon]

i dno about ash's pikachu,because i trained the one from my yellow version all the way to level 100 without evolving and it was not easy.it had trouble beating lvl.50's soemtimes.i finaly evolved it after i was able to play the surfing pikachu game on the yellow version.yey lvl100 raichu with surf!

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Let's jive Pikachu a break.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

A couple of things here: In DBZ, in the Majin Buu Saga, they were significantly weaker than the Z Fighters, you know. And that threw them for a loop, because the baddies were expecting to trounce the Z Fighters.

Second, Norman can not be all powerful. That would be absurd, he has--has--to have a power cap, since he is the fourth gym leader. Like, consider this: Would you appreciate facing Brock for the first time and see his Pokés are at the calibur of, say, Lance's Pokés? No. Ok?

So there has to be some kind of limit to each GL's Poképower, otherwise it would screw up trainers. They'd be at their fifth gym and never be able to move on because they would get obliterated every challenge. So, with this in mind, I think we can agree that Norman is just at the power level of a fifth gym. Think of every other poor trainer who came along and just got overwhelmed if the limitless power level thing was the case...

And about the TV guys trying to write out a "there's always someone stronger" thought, I can appreciate that, but in this case, its like trying to justify a caterpie beating a charmeleon. As much as you may want that to happen, there's just no logic to support it, and it just doesn't make sense. You simply cannot buy that.

But then again, as was confirmed in the Pokémon 4ever DVD commentary, the Japanese story telling style is much more open to fantasy/illogical elements, so maybe those guys just wanted to tell a story that day, not think up a hard fact case to keep us entertained...

...just a thought.

[Professor_Chris]

Riiight. The Gym Leader's Pokemon are magically capped...they go through probably atleast 1 battle a day (for the more traveled to gyms...others probably less)...and these Gym Leader Pokemon never get any stronger...but the whole point is...Hoenn Pokemon cannot be naturally that much stronger than Kanto/Johto Pokemon. And Pikachu has been through several battles, so it shouldn't have gotten slaughtered by Vigaroth...anyways I suppose the magnet theory is acceptable...

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

Ok, ok, maybe i should explain...

What i mean by capped is that, well, there could be like a code, like in Menudo (stay with me here). Like a contract, you know? Once the Pokés get significantly stronger than their alotted levels, the GL's have to trade 'em in for weaker guys. That way, it'd be like: Once they get too high up, you rotate 'em out to keep the overall level of the Gym system consistant. That way throughout the land, you could see a gym and go, "Ok, it's a level 5 gym, so I should expect to face guys from level so and so to level so and so."

Think of it like card sets. You rotate some out after a while. Draft new guys, like in sports.

And, right, like I said earlier: If i had to accept one excuse, it'd be the magnet one.

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Actualy Norman is 5th GL.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

yeah...hence level 5 gym...

(not the level of the Pokés contained in it)

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Vigoroth is like LV.40

[PokeWisconsin]

It's definitely not more than level 26. Ash doesn't train it enoguh to be any more than that. It gets a few experience points each time it zaps Team Rocket, but other than that it pretty much just sits on Ash the whole time. It's weak.

[Marril]

What i mean by capped is that, well, there could be like a code, like in Menudo (stay with me here). Like a contract, you know? Once the Pokés get significantly stronger than their alotted levels, the GL's have to trade 'em in for weaker guys. That way, it'd be like: Once they get too high up, you rotate 'em out to keep the overall level of the Gym system consistant. That way throughout the land, you could see a gym and go, "Ok, it's a level 5 gym, so I should expect to face guys from level so and so to level so and so."

Think of it like card sets. You rotate some out after a while. Draft new guys, like in sports.
Yes, like that first part squares at all with the "be friends with your Pokémon" message the animé loves spewing. "Oh, sorry Vigoroth, you've reached level 40. Bye, you're being replaced with a level 30 one." The second part is also a flawed analogy because, quite frankly, new sets aren't always weaker than older ones. Mirrodin in M:TG is singly the most powerful expansion ever and it's really new.

I think that "levels" as in the GB games don't work like that in the animé. It's probably more of like how fighting in real life works, i.e. you get more skilled and stronger, but there is a cap for everyone. It's not really a magical cap so much as it is a physical one. Doesn't mean that Caterpie can reliably beat that Charmeleon (which owing to level discrepancies can be done in the GB games), but Pokémon with type disadvantages could easily win if trained properly enough.

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Marril has a point.

[Burninating_Torchic]

PokeWisconsin: wtf...if it's so weak, how come it beat practically everything it faced up until Pokemon Advanced?

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

Maybe Pikachu is trying to get Ash to do more training like the Treecko and Brawly thing.It can't be LV.26 that's almost practicly inpossible.When Pikachu battled Brock it was like Lv20.That was the FIRST Gym Leader.

[PokeWisconsin]

Torchic, it wins because everything it faces is even weaker: Brock's level 7 Onix, his level 10 Geodude, ect. Even with resistance it still has more than double their levels. Plus it gets a lot of critical hits.

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

True critical hits alot.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

well all right, if not the magnet thing, I'll buy the physical limitations hypothesis.

But in a real world example, wouldn't the rotating thing work out?

And i think i communicated the rotating of blocks badly. Look, blocks have three sets each. As soon as a third block's first set is released, an entire previous block is rotated out. So, instead of having a card pool of six sets to draw from, you have four and have to then build up to six again. And then what happens when you reach six again with the third set in the new block? You rotate a new one in and start back at four. Then, the cycle of growth and decay begins again. That's how i would see a gym leader's arsenal, just to keep the overall level fair.

[FlygonChampion]

If you ask me, the writers fixed everything up oh so awesomely with Ash wanting to start all over and kept all his Pokémon except Pikachu, so all he had was a hyperly strong Pikachu. Then TR's wacky magnet probably drained Pikachu down a heck of a lot of levels, or something. Remember, most of Ash's Pokémon had lots of EXP from practically 3 seasons of Johto, but all of Hoenn's Gym Leaders and trainers are all relatively weak, so the writers needed SOME kind of a plan to make the playing field level, so Ash wouldn't be able to walk into a gym and uterly ahhnialate them. That's a explanation in terms of the concept of levels in the game.

Personally, I think the show is so complex with it's level ups and learning moves, the writers normally make an explanation for each seperate situation.

[Marril]

You rotate a new one in and start back at four. Then, the cycle of growth and decay begins again. That's how i would see a gym leader's arsenal, just to keep the overall level fair.
Which, I'll say again, runs completely contrary to everything the animé preaches about having to be friends with your Pokémon and such. "Oh sorry, you're too high a level, you're getting the boot." If you think about it, my explanation a few posts up makes infinitely more sense than some "rotation", both in physical reality and in the messages given by the Pokémon animé.

[Psycho_Lugia_X]

Ok, ok, if i haven't done so in the past, I'll say it here: I acknowledge that the rotation idea doesn't fit in well with the friends-forever theme!!

Sigh.

I'm just saying, if this were like a profession, in real life, I believe they would want some way to keep everything fair, because if you just let leaders' Pokémon go crazy unmonitored, there would be no way to accurately judge what a leaders' relative power level is.

There would have to be some monitoring network to keep the gym circuit valid and winnable. Like a board of people to keep an eye on everything going on in sanctioned gym battles; a governing body. They could be in control of keeping a gym legit or taking its liscense away.

That would mean that if they don't adhere to the general code and policy that the board--and trainers--acknowledge then you aren't allowed to participate in the Official Pokémon League Circuit. If the gym doesn't follow the code, its badges don't count and it is a meaningless establishment. A part of this code would of course be the thing about keeping leaders' levels constant. Simple.

I think I see where the problem is. In the GB game, the cap is Lv.100. I am assuming that all Pokémon have the capability to reach that mark, given enough time, experience, etc. like in the game since we are trying to translate that into real life. I am simply trying to come up with a system to control this.

That is why I believe in the rotation idea, because I am under the assumption that all Pokémon will just keep on growing until that hundreth level. After that hundreth level, Pokémon would have reached their maximum possible physical level--there is nothing further physically possible.

So, in real life, there wouldn't neccessarily be a hugs-and-kisses relation with the creatures. And I believe the show has put just a bit too much emphasis on that idea, unfortunately. Well, those are my thoughts.

[Marril]

Actually, with my idea, the rotation idea becomes unnecessary, since a gym leader wouldn't really be a gym leader because of high-level Pokémon, he/she would be the gym leader because of superior skill and tactics. It would be perfectly possible to beat any given gym leader with any sufficiently-directed Pokémon. Although some battles might look like this...

Rayquaza used Hyper Beam!
Rattata hung on with Focus Band!
Rattata used Endeavour!
Rayquaza is at 1 HP!
Rattata used Quick Attack!
Rayquaza fainted!

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

It's clear that the anime is not determined by the higher level as much as the GB is. Just stop trying to think about how a pokemon with lv 20 exp can beat something that should be lv 80 exp. We just can't ever see this happening because of the GB games. I think of it more like sports. The more skilled team will usually win but out of so many games some less experienced less skilled teams will play better that day. The difference between lv 20 and lv 80 in the anime is much smaller and gives the 20 a chance to win. The last place team in Baseball still occasionally beats the first place team.

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

That's true Ross Yankees lost to the Mariners once this season.Marril I would like to edit that.Rayquaza wouldn't waste Hyper Beam on Rattata.
Rayqaza use Dragon Claw!
Rattata hung on with Focus Band.
Rattata used Endeavor!
Rayquaza HP1.
Rayquaza used Extreme Speed!

I know it's an example but a bad one.

[Shdwchu]

My thought... Easy... it's called Experience decay. Whenever Ash ISN'T using Pikachu it's experience starts to fade. so my idea would be that Pikachu would be around lv. 30 - Lv 42.

I was gonna say 50 but then I remebered that Gary's Eevee stays an Eevee unless Gary's bonded with it at a certain time of day. Thus YES pikachu COULD lose to Gary's eevee, that little guy could easily be lv. 60. ( knowing my Eevee Didn't turn into Espeon until lv. 73.)

[TheDancingPeanut]

No, no, you guys are all missing the boat on this one. Pikachu is obviously weaker because he misses Misty.

[liminy0]

Maybe the problem is not all on Pikachu. I think Ash is not trying as hard as he did before, he got a lot of high level Pokemon with Professor Oak. Pikachu loses to Vigoroth is reasonable, because Ash did not seriously prepare for the battle. (If he got Charizard, and ... yeah) When Ash fought Gary's Eevee, he might just think it is a friendly completition and not to worry much, so did not put much attention into it. Well Gary is tough. Strong Pokemon need Strong Trainer to direct in order to unleash all its power. Pikachu maybe as interested in battle as first time Ash got it. Pikachu has been through a lot. Been there, done that. Gym battles may no longer get him excited as much.

[Marril]

Rayqaza use Dragon Claw!
Rattata hung on with Focus Band.
Rattata used Endeavor!
Rayquaza HP1.
Rayquaza used Extreme Speed!
In other words, you'd keep an 80 BP move on something like Rayquaza when it doesn't even have STAB?

Also, that Rattata is obviously being controlled by the Colosseum AI. It would easily hang on twice in a row with that Focus Band of its. Only thing with more luck than the Colosseum AI was the Pokesta 1 Gambler. *shudder*