Note Taking with Time Walk

[rroaryh]

I just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. This ruling absolutely blows my mind and I would love to hear from the higher ups as to why this is the way it is.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84184

I have had the same ruling from many other TOs and my local PTO. What is going on here? I can't use code? Really? I understood my opponent being able to see my notes, but they have to understand them too? Does this mean i need to write in clear handwriting or can i develop a chicken scratch style only I can read?

I really want to hear other people's opinions on this and what we can do about it to maybe reverse it.

Ror

[mrdraz07]

Just remember which prizes are which. Look at them 1 at a time and remember which card is in which spot.

If you're dead set on writing stuff down, couldn't you just write down the order in which you want to take prizes?

[PokePop]

Mike Liesik was very clear.
We asked a few different questions to be certain.
The upshot is, if you're writing notes, those notes must be clear and understandable to the opponent.
No code.
If you don't want them knowing something, best not to write it down as notes.

[rhodesia123]

Just remember which prizes are which. Look at them 1 at a time and remember which card is in which spot.

If you're dead set on writing stuff down, couldn't you just write down the order in which you want to take prizes?you dont know when you might want the bebe, or the rare candy, or the pluspower.

[rroaryh]

Pokepop - ya i know the ruling is very clear. I just want to understand it. I know what it is, but i need to know the why behind I guess

Ror

[PokePop]

Pokepop - ya i know the ruling is very clear. I just want to understand it. I know what it is, but i need to know the why behind I guess

Ror

Well, it's not my ruling so I can only try to express the thought that has gone into it.

Basically, it is taking the floor rules at face value.
When you make notes, both players get to use them.
If they are not clear or are deceptive, then you are not meeting that requirement.

[Black Mamba]

There are plenty of ways to mark your prizes in a way that wouldn't give your opponent all the information. If I thought it was a big deal, I'd probably just count my prizes in an unusual order and write them down 1, 2, 3 etc, so my opponent still wouldn't know which one I was getting.

There's actually a lot of fun things you could do with note taking, now that I think about it.

[Crosplat]

I would just take notes in Arabic or another language that is not English.

[Gibby]

I would just take notes in Arabic or another language that is not English.

But the ruling as it stands right now states it has to be understandable to both players, so writing it in a different language (one that the opponent may not understand) would probably be against that ruling.

I really don't like this ruling (as a personal view). When I write notes, I write them for myself, so I have a record of what happened, and when. I'm not writing them so my opponent can then use it to figure out certain things about my deck that I am not ready to reveal to them.

but if this is the ruling, then I will have to abide by it.

Gibby

[Articjedi]

well I can always just write down the ones I'll never remember in a million years then memorize the rest.

[Chairman Kaga]

I would just take notes in Arabic or another language that is not English.

Which is also disallowed. Notes must be accessible to both players.


Quit trying to game this. Make your notes clear or don't take them at all.

Your opponent has access to your notes, so they also need to be able to understand them (with the possible exception of an international event, like Worlds) in a manner that does not impact the pace of the game.

In fact, the only reason that the note taking rule is really even in the Tournament Rules at all is to allow people who like to post tournament reports to jot down notes for later posting. I'd hate to have to remove that ability just because a few people want to try to manipulate this.

[(TYranitarFReak)]

Well, just put the 'good' cards nearest to u and the 'bad' cards furthest from u!

[Crosplat]

Which is also disallowed. Notes must be accessible to both players.

I would never do this, but to play devil's advocate what is there to prevent me from writing REALLY messily while slurring together the letters. It is easy to do this in cursive and some people do have terrible handwriting. My cursive is BAD, so I never use it, but what is there to prevent me from doing it. If "I" can't write better, are they going to stop me from taking notes?

Also, is there anything in the rules about writing down false information on my notes? Say i have 3 Claydols prized, but instead I write 3 Fighting Energy. My opponent can read it, but they have no idea what it really means. Can I get called on that or on using any other misinformation like writing down Mesprit X when Azelf MT is prized.

Could somebody (who makes rulings) define what is considered "accessible"?

I may consider writing down the incorrect card if it's allowed, since I believe that my opponent has no right to know my prizes. If it is not allowed, I will never do it.

[PokePop]

Read this: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1223139#post1223139
It's about as clear as it can get.

[Lawman]

I would never do this, but to play devil's advocate what is there to prevent me from writing REALLY messily while slurring together the letters. It is easy to do this in cursive and some people do have terrible handwriting. My cursive is BAD, so I never use it, but what is there to prevent me from doing it. If "I" can't write better, are they going to stop me from taking notes?

Also, is there anything in the rules about writing down false information on my notes? Say i have 3 Claydols prized, but instead I write 3 Fighting Energy. My opponent can read it, but they have no idea what it really means. Can I get called on that or on using any other misinformation like writing down Mesprit X when Azelf MT is prized.

Could somebody (who makes rulings) define what is considered "accessible"?

I may consider writing down the incorrect card if it's allowed, since I believe that my opponent has no right to know my prizes. If it is not allowed, I will never do it.

What part of Liesik's post did you not understand?? :mad: Dubious actions can result in DQs and even worse. Dont try to trick players. The rules allow note taking for reports, etc. It can only involve the game taking place. You cannot use a code. IF you are caught writing "dusknoir in prizes....top left" and your list does not play dusk.....you just earned a DQ. It happened @ Worlds where a "dubious" action led to a DQ. Bottom line....note taking is a priviledge....it can be taken away. Dont ruin it for the ones that do it for tourney reports, etc.

Keith

[rroaryh]

yeah that really covers it, this thread was more so to try and discuss it and get at the heart of the matter, not try to get around it, POP has made it pretty clear, there is no getting around it

[Crosplat]

Read this: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1223139#post1223139
It's about as clear as it can get.

LM: I never saw the full context of the post before I posted what I did. If I had known the FULL picture I would not have said that. I do not know the FULL story about what happened at Worlds either, only rumors, so I will not say anything in regards to it. I apologize if you dislike what I said, but I personally will do EVERYTHING possible to swing things in my favor as long as it is LEGAL. I mentioned that as the last sentence of my previous post, but perhaps you missed it.

Here is a personal example that I would like some input on: Before tournaments, when asked about what deck I am playing, I will often give a nonsense answer because it is not my potential opponent's business. Are you saying I could be kicked from the tournament because of this?

Just so you know, I appreciate people putting up tournament reports and a very good friend of mine takes notes for that purpose. I would never intentionally do something that may take away his priviledge.

'Pop, that is about as clear as can get.

Seeing as I don't cheat, I guess it's time to start memorizing things. Sorry for bothering you 'Pop.

[Rogue Archetype]

Just... for God's sake. Write them and share them. It REALLY REALLY REALLY is NOT a big deal man.

I made top cut and every opponent knew EVERY CARD in my discard EVERY TIME... I wrote them down, held them up, and actually EXPLAINED each marking (i.e. "This is Roseanne's, this is Moonlight, This is TSD etc... )

It's really not as important as you think man... If they wager.. .they wager... you get more cards.. whoop whoop...

That's about all they can do ... So you know if I pull a Premier Ball? You were probably playing under the impression that I'm intending to Level up all game long anyway ? You wager it into the deck. Now you have NO CERTAINTY if I have it or not... (or if I topped the X I needed... )

Guys. Really. Not major. The "advantage" is nowhere as huge as you're making it out to be.
Personally, I don't think there is any advantage given. PARTICULARLY now that both players are probably going to time walk .. ROFL... now we BOTH know each other's prizes.

It actually made for a FUN game (win or lose) when people see how screwed your prizes are sometimes.
You laugh through the whole game like "Man, how are you gonna get THAT out?" .. "I don't know ... WARP POINT... who you gonna give me so I can take a prize?"

I still laugh at being slaughtered by Rory when I left like EVERY UXIE and UXIE X in the prizes and forgot to pull one w/ time walk... LOL
I'm like "do you believe this Man ???" ... attach an energy ... pass... ROFL !!

[PokePop]

LM: I never saw the full context of the post before I posted what I did. If I had known the FULL picture I would not have said that. I do not know the FULL story about what happened at Worlds either, only rumors, so I will not say anything in regards to it. I apologize if you dislike what I said, but I personally will do EVERYTHING possible to swing things in my favor as long as it is LEGAL. I mentioned that as the last sentence of my previous post, but perhaps you missed it.

Just so you know, I appreciate people putting up tournament reports and a very good friend of mine takes notes for that purpose. I would never intentionally do something that may take away his priviledge.

'Pop, that is about as clear as can get.

Seeing as I don't cheat, I guess it's time to start memorizing things. Sorry for bothering you 'Pop.

No bother to me.

[Black Mamba]

IF you are caught writing "dusknoir in prizes....top left" and your list does not play dusk.....you just earned a DQ. It happened @ Worlds where a "dubious" action led to a DQ.

Excuse me for finding that a bit... ridiculous. Now maybe just MAYBE I can understand the note taking aspect of that, but would you be not allowed to SAY that to your opponent? How about if you tell your opponent that you have a Wager in your hand? Are they going to call the judge over and make them check to see if you actually have the card in your deck or not? How about if your list does run Dusknoir, but that's not the prize? Is the judge going to check your prizes after time walk to see if you're telling the truth on each of them?

I'm not trying to find a loophole to "cheat" at this game, it's pathetically unnecessary. However, checking the integrity of a player's statements in a way that would divulge information to the other player seems kind of... wrong. Clear me up on this.

[shiftrymaster68]

So I couldnt write down my prizes in a second language I speak, like French?

[Muscovy Level X]

Mike Liesik was very clear.
We asked a few different questions to be certain.
The upshot is, if you're writing notes, those notes must be clear and understandable to the opponent.
No code.
If you don't want them knowing something, best not to write it down as notes.
I'm not arguing, but that rule would only make sense to me if taking notes was obligatory. If someone wants to keep track of the game for whatever reason, why must the other person see the notes?

But at any rate, don't write something down that will help them; how hard is that?

[Crosplat]

So I couldnt write down my prizes in a second language I speak, like French?

No, you can't.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread...39#post1223139

This explains it clearly.

[Jason]

Lol.

You could still reorder the prizes to get the much need one on the front and the least in the back... Lol.

[FutureTrainer]

Do notes have to be complete to meet the ruling? For example, suppose I have 2 energies, 1 Trainer X, 1 Trainer Y, and 2 Pokemon in my prizes after Time Walk. I could arrange the cards and list just the 2 trainers, and maybe one of the two Pokemon. I can remember the other cards without my notes.

Prizes in order:
Pokemon A
Pokemon B
Energy
Energy
Trainer X
Trainer Y

My Notes:
Prizes: Pokemon A, Trainer X, Trainer Y

Just thinking out of the prize box,
Jeff

[rroaryh]

Do notes have to be complete to meet the ruling? For example, suppose I have 2 energies, 1 Trainer X, 1 Trainer Y, and 2 Pokemon in my prizes after Time Walk. I could arrange the cards and list just the 2 trainers, and maybe one of the two Pokemon. I can remember the other cards without my notes.

Prizes in order:
Pokemon A
Pokemon B
Energy
Energy
Trainer X
Trainer Y

My Notes:
Prizes: Pokemon A, Trainer X, Trainer Y

Just thinking out of the prize box,
Jeff

nope, that would be "code"

it is really clear, there are no loopholes, ur opponent would have to know exactly what it is means. Unless I guess I told my opponent what Energy A and Energy B are. Like if I wrote Ax for Zelf lvl X and i then told them that it was Azelf lvl X but shorthand, that might be ok, but other than that, you cant use any form of code, it really is quite clear in the links.

Ror

[Lawman]

I'm not arguing, but that rule would only make sense to me if taking notes was obligatory. If someone wants to keep track of the game for whatever reason, why must the other person see the notes?

But at any rate, don't write something down that will help them; how hard is that?

The rules state that IF you take notes, your oppo CAN look at them. Ergo, they have to be able to UNDERSTAND THEM too. Note taking is a privilege in the rules. It can be taken away if you are taking toooooo long to write them out.


As for listing 2 or 3 of your 6 prizes only.....I don't personally see a problem with that as long as you state exactly what the 2 or 3 prizes are. ie Empo, RC, Zong and nothing else listed.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Excuse me for finding that a bit... ridiculous. Now maybe just MAYBE I can understand the note taking aspect of that, but would you be not allowed to SAY that to your opponent? How about if you tell your opponent that you have a Wager in your hand? Are they going to call the judge over and make them check to see if you actually have the card in your deck or not? How about if your list does run Dusknoir, but that's not the prize? Is the judge going to check your prizes after time walk to see if you're telling the truth on each of them?

I'm not trying to find a loophole to "cheat" at this game, it's pathetically unnecessary. However, checking the integrity of a player's statements in a way that would divulge information to the other player seems kind of... wrong. Clear me up on this.

IF there is a Q about the integrety of the notes, a player can ask a Judge to check the list/deck. Now, I would HOPE the player would be HONEST with the Judge and not waste everyone's time by listing things HONESTLY on their notes. If you are called on it and you have used "dubious" or "misleading" info on PUBLIC knowledge info, it may end up being a "sad panda day" for you!

As for the usual pre tourney Qs from other players..."Whatcha playing today?" You can answer that anyway you want......they dont have the RIGHT to know that. They will know what you are playing once the games START. You always have the right to say "That is none of your business" or "A 60 card deck of pokemon cards" and just smile!

Keith

[The King Of Magikarps]

if you got a problem with it don't play the card, otherwise write the info and share. why are people making such a big deal about this. I don't write down notes as I just rearrange the prizes so that it is easier for me to remember where they are. I pick them up, take a pokemon, and then place the cards in an order that it is easier for me to remember where they are. That way I don't need notes and this method is approved (my league leader has no issue with this that I am aware of).

[rroaryh]

KoM - ur method is approved

People are upset because they want to remember the info via notes so they dont have to commit it to memory on top of the other things they are keeping track of and that information is critical at times and you dont want to have to remember what prizes and where. Its such a hassle

It upsets me because I feel what i write is being censored. Maybe it is just the activist in me that wants to scream 1st amendment or something silly. The fact is, that while playing POPs game at POPs events we need to do what they say, like no iPods during matches. I would love to play my iPod, it helps me think. But POP says i cant. I just feel that what i write/how i write shouldnt be an issue. But as I write it becomes part of the game state and the field in a way and should therefore be open to everyone's sight and understanding.

Ror

[The King Of Magikarps]

It does say in the rules that "Notes taken during a match may be reviewed by either player at any time during the match." From 2008-2009 Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules

[rhodesia123]

reviewed doesnt mean understood

[The King Of Magikarps]

I just copy/pasted from the .doc

[shiftrymaster68]

Also, I was wondering if the same note-taking principle applies to cards such as when using Omastar's Primal Swirl, writing down the evolutions that went back to your opponent's hand.

Or for next set, when Gengar uses Poltergiest to look at your opponent's hand, can you write what you saw down? I wouldn't think the it-hasn't-come-out-so-we-can't-make-a-ruling-on-it would apply since Pokemon have had Poltergiest has been on past cards.

[rroaryh]

reviewed doesnt mean understood

it doesnt really matter, Leisik and POP have come out and blatantly shot it down and discussed it. There is no loophole to it, the loopholes were addressed and you cant do it,

Ror

[icemelter1001]

If "dubious" tactics or using trickery on your opponent isn't aloud, does that mean we can't change facial expressions, cheer, sigh, etc., as we draw cards, prizes, etc. to make them think we drew something good, or bad?

[edwarpy]

Do notes have to be complete to meet the ruling? For example, suppose I have 2 energies, 1 Trainer X, 1 Trainer Y, and 2 Pokemon in my prizes after Time Walk. I could arrange the cards and list just the 2 trainers, and maybe one of the two Pokemon. I can remember the other cards without my notes.

Prizes in order:
Pokemon A
Pokemon B
Energy
Energy
Trainer X
Trainer Y

My Notes:
Prizes: Pokemon A, Trainer X, Trainer Y

Just thinking out of the prize box,
Jeff

This is pretty much what I decided to do, except for the A, B, X, Y part, that seems codey. How about:

Basic Pokemon
Stage 1 Pokemon
Energy
Energy
Supporter
Trainer

I'll trust my memory for the details, and my luck for the energy pull. It's accurate and non-deceptive.
I don't find reordering works so well, what you think you'll need next, you might not!

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Well, it's not my ruling so I can only try to express the thought that has gone into it.

Basically, it is taking the floor rules at face value.
When you make notes, both players get to use them.
If they are not clear or are deceptive, then you are not meeting that requirement.

See, that's the problem. Basically, rroaryh was taking the rules at face value.

First off, I agree the rules deal with deceptiveness, that's uncool.

Your opponent may review your notes, ok. The fact they must be legible, understandable, in 8pt.
font, is not addressed at all, thus the question. Indeed, I think the ruling is unsatisfying because
Mike went against 'face value' to say that notes could be taken at all for Azelf's Time Walk.

"Notes should be restricted to changes in the game state." Maybe I'm wrong, but looking at prizes
does not affect game state. I'd like to make this very clear: I'm not here to question Mike's ruling,
it's fine with me, I'm all for us playing by the same rules.

Here's the problem I have, and the reason I reluctantly write this. rroaryh asked a simple question
and requested some reasoning for it. The tone in many answers is sickening:

"Quit trying to game this."

"It's about as clear as it can get."

"What part of Liesik's post did you not understand??"

"Dont ruin it for the ones that do it for tourney reports, etc."

"Just... for God's sake. Write them and share them."

"Note taking is a privilege in the rules. It can be taken away...."

Over-react much fellas? Geez, the guy was only asking.

Finally, PokePop, I choose to reply to your response only because it provided me a convenient seque
to make my point. Really I appreciate your attempts to clarify the ruling and give rroaryh a response.
What I don't appreciate is condescending and accusatory nature of replies that questions like this
inevitably generate.

[Rogue Archetype]

Finally, PokePop, I choose to reply to your response only because it provided me a convenient seque
to make my point. Really I appreciate your attempts to clarify the ruling and give rroaryh a response.
What I don't appreciate is condescending and accusatory nature of replies that questions like this
inevitably generate.

You don't have children....

One of those responses is mine. I love roary to death. He's in my league and he's a GREAT GREAT guy. If you're gonna lose, he's the one you'd have fun losing to...

So, I doubt he took my comment as "sickening" ...

And many of those responses you quoted above are completely out of context...

Rory and his brother asked a question ...

Then ... people just plain got STUPID about "what if I just .. " loopholes. Even ROARY got tired of those.

Kids are not willing to accept and abide by the rule. it's a rule. It's been made. Just like 'draw only one card at the beginning of your turn' .. you HAVE to do it.

So, we (and roary) are saying .. dude... live with it. Stop beating a dead horse.

That's all I was saying with :
""Just... for God's sake. Write them and share them."

People, sometimes, need to nod, accept and play along the way it's supposed to be played.

ON A SIDE NOTE ...

For those of you who REALLY don't want to give complete information to your oppoenent. You COULD put LIMITED information such as
"Trainer, Trainer, Supporter, Stadium, Pokemon, Pokemon"

Someone asked if they could do this and PokePop supplied the following answer:

"I would have no problem with a player revealing limited info like that, T or P.
The notes have to be clear and accurate. There is no requirement that they be complete."

[flariados]

You could always let me write the note. I have such a terrible handwriting that everybody needs my dictionary to translate it. you do have to pay shipping costs and 1 dollar tax.

[Heatherdu]

POP is doing this to be fair to all players not to censor you. Taking notes is an option. If you choose to use that option then POP needs to guarantee that it does not give one player an unfair advantage.

My concern with it is that a player's prizes are not common knowledge but if you write it down then your opponent now knows those cards as well. Time Walk to me is similar to using Bebe's to retrieve a Pokemon from your deck. Most players on their first time searching their deck will look all the way through to see if something is prized, etc. That knowledge is not common. But if you need to write down, "LV X is prized," so that you don't waste a Premier Ball, well, your opponent will know it too. I don't think the intent of Time Walk was to let your opponent know your prizes just yourself. But since there is an option for note taking and it needs to be fair then I think POP has made the fair call. I don't want to think about how they will handle this one at Worlds! Maybe a copy of the Battle Dictionary at each table?

[PokePop]

I don't want to think about how they will handle this one at Worlds! Maybe a copy of the Battle Dictionary at each table?

Well, there wasn't any "wrist play" at worlds.
I doubt we'll see people writing notes on this at worlds either.
The top players generally are able to keep track of a lot of info without notes. That's why they are top players.

I just started using Time Walk myself.
It's a little difficult to keep track of what cards are where in the prizes, but I find I can do it without notes.

If one thinks that they need notes to do it, then the downside is that they will be sharing that info.
It's the choice that has to be made.

[rroaryh]

Edwarpy and Rogue_Archetype - I don't feel attacked bashed or put down. I opened the can of worms to see if people were upset and how they felt about it and to try to get some reasoning into it. I felt I got many more "this is how you can get around that" which is dissapointing, but oh well.

Interesting question because I sparked this in out VA BR thread. IF my Mesprit lvl X is prized, cant i just write Mesprit down. Lv X is not part of the cards name. THe same would be true for different cards of the same name, such as Infernape. THere are multiple infernape, but certainly I dont need to let em know WHICH. This applies to that limited information bit, interesting it think.

Ror

[Eeveeac]

When I was told I could take notes, I was really happy, and would write two-letter abrviations I made up on the spot when I time walked. Now that I've heard this, I'll never be taking notes again, there's no point. I'm not gonna do anything or try and debunk anyones desicions, it's not my place to do so, but this truley seems like a pointless ruling to me......

LATER ADDITION: You know, now that I think about it, the abbriviations made sense at the moment I wrote them (ie: DU=Defense Up= Spcl.Metal) but when I went to draw a prize, I could never remember what they ment:rolleyes:. Lol!

[Freezepop]

Mike Liesik was very clear.
We asked a few different questions to be certain.
The upshot is, if you're writing notes, those notes must be clear and understandable to the opponent.
No code.
If you don't want them knowing something, best not to write it down as notes.

what if it's abbreviations? do you have to tell them what they mean?

[PokePop]

what if it's abbreviations? do you have to tell them what they mean?

That's the understandable part.
You would need to tell them what the abbreviation stands for.

[G-Dog4377]

POP is not doing this to be fair to all players not to censor you. Taking notes is an option. If you choose to use that option then POP needs to guarantee that it does not give one player an unfair advantage.That first sentence did not quite come out right, but I think I get it. Now maybe I am missing something big, but what sort of advantage can taking notes during a match give you? It's not like what you write does anything in the game. If anything, it splits your concentration and gives you a disadvantage. I am not seeing why this sort of restriction is necessary at all. It would be much appreciated if someone could clarify this for me. Thank you.

[Crosplat]

That first sentence did not quite come out right, but I think I get it. Now maybe I am missing something big, but what sort of advantage can taking notes during a match give you? It's not like what you write does anything in the game. If anything, it splits your concentration and gives you a disadvantage. I am not seeing why this sort of restriction is necessary at all. It would be much appreciated if someone could clarify this for me. Thank you.

G-Dog, I can explain this in more detail if you want, but the idea with restrictions is that you could write totally bogus prizes, like 1 Dusknoir prized, just for the sake of totally messing with their head. That is unsportsmanlike because you are lying, and lying is bad in pokemon. The notes also have to be accessible to both people, which means that they have to be accurate and your opponent has to understand them. What this rule is meant to do is prevent mind games.

You can write anything as long as it is accurate, and your opponent can read and understand what it means.

[FutureTrainer]

It seems my previous post wasn't clear. When I mentioned Pokemon X i ment that I would write the name of the pokemon, whatever happens to be Pokemon X in my deck. So here is a realistic scenario. Are all these options legal?

I just played Time Walk and put an Electric Energy in my prizes to replace a Pokemon. These are my prizes in order (Left to right)

Prizes in order:
Pikachu
Rotom
Electric Energy
Electric Energy
Quck Ball
Rare Candy

Option 1 - Just write them all down in order. No code, just card names.
Prizes: Pikachu, Rotom, Electric Energy, Electric Energy, Quck Ball, Rare Candy


Option 2 - partial list of the cards that I think I'd forget which order they are in
Prizes: Pikachu, Quick Ball, Rare Candy


Option 3 - Full list with just the card type
Prizes: Pokemon, Pokemon, Energy, Energy, Trainer, Trainer


Confused player just want's to understand the guidelines,
Jeff

[PokePop]

That all sounds fine

[Heatherdu]

That first sentence did not quite come out right, but I think I get it. Now maybe I am missing something big, but what sort of advantage can taking notes during a match give you? It's not like what you write does anything in the game. If anything, it splits your concentration and gives you a disadvantage. I am not seeing why this sort of restriction is necessary at all. It would be much appreciated if someone could clarify this for me. Thank you.

Oops, you are right. Too many 'not's in my post. I'll fix it. Thanks.

But I do think that note taking can be an advantage. As 'Pop mentioned the best players at Worlds do not usually take notes because they can remember this sort of information easily. But other players need a tool (notes) to help them remember. Say I used Time Walk and I know there is a Premier Ball in my prizes and I really want it to grab my Lv X from my discard pile but I cannot remember WHICH prize card it is? Oh, I'll check my notes. That extra information from my notes lets me get the correct card and that would be an advantage since I can now grab my Lv X. Note taking is legal though so to make it fair both players get to see the notes. If my notes said 'Premier Ball' then my opponent may have guessed that I picked that prize and try to play Wager or something to get it out of my hand. That would essentially cross-out the advantage. If my notes say 'Trainer,' my opponent may still figure it out and try to play against it. But if my notes said 'Grab' and I had not explained that it is code for 'go grab a Lv X' it would be an advantage to me. Hence, no codes or deceitfulness in the notes. If I choose to take notes then it is only fair that the notes be honest and common game knowledge.

[smacktack15]

I've been briefly reading through this thread and I guess I will share my trick...

(This only works if you remember your complete deck)

Use Time Walk...
Place the remaining Prizes back in alphabetical order like this...

A B

C D

E F

A = Axelf Lv.X
B = Bebes Search
C = Call Energy
D = Psychic Energy
E = Roseannes Research
F = Uxie

(The example is from a fictional AMU deck:lol:)

Another trick is to place identical Prizes on top of each other

(Here is another example...)

A B&C

D&E F

A = Claydol
B&C = Fighting Energy
D&E = Metal Energy
F = Roseannes Research

(Random Fictional Deck)

The 2nd method uses matching and alphabetical order.

No Notes Needed!!!

Hope these were helpful, because they help me:)

[DreamChaser AJ]

Yes, as far as I know (except worlds) it doesn't matter how you have your prize cards arranged as long as it is obvious those are your prize cards. So you could make a triangle with certain prizes angled certain ways.

BUT you need to have all prizes visible. So don't do it in a fasion that hides prize cards.

[G-Dog4377]

But I do think that note taking can be an advantage. As 'Pop mentioned the best players at Worlds do not usually take notes because they can remember this sort of information easily. But other players need a tool (notes) to help them remember. Say I used Time Walk and I know there is a Premier Ball in my prizes and I really want it to grab my Lv X from my discard pile but I cannot remember WHICH prize card it is? Oh, I'll check my notes. That extra information from my notes lets me get the correct card and that would be an advantage since I can now grab my Lv X....Hence, no codes or deceitfulness in the notes. If I choose to take notes then it is only fair that the notes be honest and common game knowledge.
Hmmmm...I see what you are saying, but I just don't agree with it. Time Walk allowed you to see your prizes in the first place, so knowing what they are is an advantage afforded you by using the power to begin with. It does not say in the text that your opponent must be shown the prizes either, except for a pokemon you may take from the prizes, so I don't like that you are required to let your opponent know what it is just because you have a lousy memory and want to write it down. If you want to remember where that Premier Ball was, I'd say by all means go ahead and write it down. That is in my estimation an advantage granted you by Time Walk, just as skipping a Stage 1 and evolving a Basic into a Stage 2 is an advantage Rare Cany gives you. As far as using code, your opponent does not have to pay any attention to what you write. In fact, your opponent does not even have to see what you write, because it can't physically change the game state anyway. These are just my feelings on the subject.

[Grant]

If you choose to use that option then POP needs to guarantee that it does not give one player an unfair advantage.

If notes were private (Or code, etc was allowed), how would that possibly give one player an unfair advantage? There would be nothing stopping the other player from taking their own notes (Or writing in their own code, etc)...

On another note (lol, note), can I write things not necessarily related to game-state in my notes, ie "Does John tech an Empoleon?," "Ask John where he got his sleeves," etc? If so, can I put John even if that's not my opponent's name?

[PokePop]

that's the point.
Notes are NOT private.

[G-Dog4377]

Ohh, I don't know about that. They can be private if you wanted them to be. You can make them public, but there is no all knowing truth that says notes have to be public.

[edwarpy]

Ok, maybe going a bit overboard here, but trying to make a point and understand....

Why are the results of Time Walk with my-own-note-taking-system such an outrageous advantage?

I dared to played Azelf, why shouldn't I gain, why MUST my opponent get my notes?
Are we just trying to hang on to the original note taking rule at all cost? Would it really be so
bad if I knew and my opponent didn't?

<sarcasm>
The contents of my hand are secret! This constitutes a crazy advantage! All games
therefore must be played hand-face-up, it would be unfair if your opponent did not know
what you were holding! It's cheating! Quit gaming the system.
</sarcasm>

I think this is what seems unreasonable to players. To those who say "What's the big
deal, show your notes.", I say, "What's the big deal, none ya business, *I* played Azelf",
why shouldn't that gain me an advantage?

In the spirit of rroaryh's original question, I'd appreciate logical discussions rather than
'cause-thats-how-it-is' sledgehammers.

Added: If, on the other hand, all we have is "that's how it is", that's ok with me too.

[Heatherdu]

In my opinion, the prizes are similar to your deck and not your hand. Yes, the content of none of the three (deck, hand, prizes) are common knowledge in the game. Unlike your hand, you do not get to look at the contents of your deck or prizes anytime that you want to. In some situations, for example Bebe's Search for your deck and Time Walk for your prizes, you do get to search through them and you can gather information that can help you in your current match. That's part of the game and it is smart playing practice. But you need to remember from game to game what you saw in your deck or in your prizes. Some players are very good at remembering all the details and know what is in their deck plus how many Empoleon the opponent has already played and many other things. Some players are not. For those players that are not good at remembering, there is the option of taking notes about the prizes when you play Time Walk. If you cannot remember them or the order then being able to write them down is an advantage because it is extra help for you. So, to me, at this point your notes become similar to your discard pile. If you cannot remember what is in there then you are allowed to look but so is your opponent.

Personally, I do not like the note taking about Time Walk. I think the intent of Time Walk was to give you the knowledge of your prizes but not your opponent or the 'game.' But, there are rules in place for note taking and therefore if you choose to write them down I agree that the rules state that your opponent can read them too.

[PokePop]

Ohh, I don't know about that. They can be private if you wanted them to be. You can make them public, but there is no all knowing truth that says notes have to be public.

Yes, there is an all-knowing truth that says they have to be public.
His name is Mike Liesik and he writes the POP floor rules.


No one is forcing anyone to take notes.

The rule for note taking is NOT there to help you remember things during the game.
Per Mike L, its sole purpose is to help people write up reports for sites like this.
That's it.
I suspect that if people have a problem with understanding that, POP may just decide to toss the darn rule and be done with it.
That's your "end-game" here folks.
Better start considering where things will go if you keep pushing it.

[Rogue Archetype]

PokePop

Please consider WHO the dead-horse beaters are... kids.
I would be remiss if you allowed the kids to get under your skin.
They are just driving the topic onward without reading previously posted discussion for the sake of entertainment and attention...

In OUR terms: They're talking just to be saying something, but not talking because they have something to say.

That's the downfall of a message board discussion; things go WAY BEYOND where they need to go.

Most of us Masters. . . get it.
There's a rule.
So... there's REALLY not a necessity for deep reasoning or profound rationale.

It's just... that's how it is and that's how it's gonna be. or.. don't play.

BUT... kids don't have the life experience to understand "that's how it is."
They're still in "BUT WHY??" mode.

PokePop. I'd suggest you not even return to this thread if it's getting on your nerves like that because the ones that WANTED the explanation(s) got it/them about 17 posts ago...
Your mission is accomplished here.

Now... on a side note... THIS WAS AN AWESOME (intelligently stated) response!!!

________ my favorite response _________

If you cannot remember them or the order then being able to write them down is an advantage because it is extra help for you. So, to me, at this point your notes become similar to your discard pile. If you cannot remember what is in there then you are allowed to look but so is your opponent.

Personally, I do not like the note taking about Time Walk. I think the intent of Time Walk was to give you the knowledge of your prizes but not your opponent or the 'game.' But, there are rules in place for note taking and therefore if you choose to write them down I agree that the rules state that your opponent can read them too.

If you don't get it NOW. You're simply NOT TRYING to get it... and are arguing for the sake of entertaining yourself in times of boredom.
.
.
.
feel me?

(also ... I suggest this topic be locked. I really don't want to lose the note-taking option... at all.)

[PokePop]

Rogue:

I'm not threatening to take the option away.
It's not mine to take away.
I'm warning that continuing to push the rule MAY cause those that do have the authority to take it away to do so.
I think it worthwhile that they realize that.
Sorry, but sometimes people need to hear things straight and clear.
I am not upset by it.
Personally, I don't take notes, so I wouldn't miss it.

Anyway, locking it since it's a dead horse.