The Finer Points

[bulbasnore]

Over the course of the season, Team Compendium, the PTOs and judges at big events often hear directly from the POP leadership on how the game should be played; those rulings are often put into place for big events, such as National Championships or Worlds. At my Battle Roads, I found myself coaching my players on some of these rulings so that they would be ready to compete in big events. As I travelled this fall, I collected these rulings into a document. This collection was recently submitted to the Rules Team and POP for review. After a few changes, we created the Q/A you find in the document below. Enjoy.

Your discard pile can be organized or sorted, but not separated into more than one pile
Q.*** Can I separate my discard pile in two stacks to make it easier to count energy?
A. *** No, you have to have a single neatly stacked discard pile. You may sort or turn cards neatly in that pile if it helps the game go more quickly, but they must all be touching.

Your deck cannot be placed ’sideways’ but your discard pile can (this one hurt, because I love a sideways deck, but I’ll live!)
Q.*** I like to keep my deck and discard pile sideways to help me keep them separate from my bench. Is that OK?
A.*** Your deck must be oriented vertically, to avoid revealing information during handling or cuts. You may turn your discard pile ’sideways’, to help you distinguish it from your bench.

You can use RPS cards, but you can’t randomize your choice of card (or throw).
Q.*** Is it OK to roll a dice to randomize my Rock-Paper-Scissors choice?
A.*** No. R-P-S is a game of strategy. You must not appear to be randomizing your choice by any method.

Your RPS cards MUST have the word rock, paper or scissors printed on them; dice are not allowed at all!
Q. I found some cool cards and dice to indicate my throw in Rock-Paper-Scissors. Can I use them?
A.*** You may not use dice to indicate your choice, as it is to easy to manipulate the dice while it is covered. The requirements for R-P-S cards are that they must have identical backs, that they clearly say “Rock” or “Paper” or “Scissors” on the front and that all themes on the cards be appropriate for a Pokemon Event as determined by the Head Judge.

RPS should be 1-2-3-throw, not 1-2-throw (again, not how we do it where I’m from, but we’ll adjust!)
Q. *** Is Rock-Paper-Scissors played by pumping my arm 2 times then throwing my choice, or pumping 3 times then throw?
A.*** Players should agree on this between themselves before playing. If they can’t agree, the default to be used will be a three-count priming and then the simultaneous throw of the choice, for example, “Rock-Paper-Scissors-Shoot” with the choice thrown on “shoot”.

You can’t use codes or deception in your notes. Your notes must be open/readable by your opponent
Q.*** Can I take notes in code or make deceptive notes during a match?
A.*** Per the tournament rules, your notes must be taken timely, restricted to changes in game state and open to review by the other player. Codes hinder both review and timeliness, because you have to explain them to the opponent. Of course, dubious game actions intended to deceive the opponent may earn a disqualification for unsporting conduct (i.e. no deceptive notes).

The rulings above, in our standard Q/A format, have been uploaded to the Compendium LvX. We are still waiting on a batch of card rulings from previous questions; thanks for your patiences. Meantime, we’re beginning to work on Storm Front rulings for the cards that have been previewed by PUI. Also, note that the index in the online version has been fixed so that it accommodates all the current entries; it was previously cut off after entry 200.


Visit original post on Compendium site... (http://compendium.pokegym.net/?p=59)

[Pokeplayer]

thanks Bulbasnore....

These will help out many players!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumb:

[Serebii1997J]

Great work on this. It will certainly help more people.

[neb27]

good job. this will help so many people to stop making placement mistakes.lol

[Diaz]

Are all of these rules in the compendium already. They should be.

Your discard pile can be organized or sorted, but not separated into more than one pile
Q.*** Can I separate my discard pile in two stacks to make it easier to count energy?
A. *** No, you have to have a single neatly stacked discard pile. You may sort or turn cards neatly in that pile if it helps the game go more quickly, but they must all be touching.

I've heard of pleople being penalized at major events for rearanging the discard pile, because it meant that judges couldnt go back and have a rough history of the game in case of dispute. I'm glad to see this ruling here.

Your deck cannot be placed ’sideways’ but your discard pile can (this one hurt, because I love a sideways deck, but I’ll live!)
Q.*** I like to keep my deck and discard pile sideways to help me keep them separate from my bench. Is that OK?
A.*** Your deck must be oriented vertically, to avoid revealing information during handling or cuts. You may turn your discard pile ’sideways’, to help you distinguish it from your bench.

Can I have all the cards on my bench sideways to prevent the mixing of my deck and bench. Unlike active pokemon, there are no gameplay actions that would otherwise cause the bench cards to be sideways, so it wouldnt interphere with the game.

You can use RPS cards, but you can’t randomize your choice of card (or throw).
Q.*** Is it OK to roll a dice to randomize my Rock-Paper-Scissors choice?
A.*** No. R-P-S is a game of strategy. You must not appear to be randomizing your choice by any method.
May I randomly choose RPS moves at home, memorize them, then use them in an event?
What constitutes random? If I make a computer program which uses the 3rd diget of the time in seconds (the same thing apprentice uses for coin flips) to "randomize" my rps throw would that be legal, because it isnt technically random its just playing throwing something different based on the time of day.
I know that I couldnt use this program durring the event but could I memorize them at home and then use them in an event.
Could I memorize numbers from a stock market ticker and use that to generate a "random" throw?
Could I use the number of cards left in my deck to generate a RPS throw? Surely that isn't really random?
What inspiration can I use to determin a RPS throw.
Can I watch someone else's games and use thier sequence of RPS throws.(For example, Joson Klaczynski's series of throws in the finals of Worlds)
If my opponent breaks the rules and randomly throws for RPS, and then I use whatever they used last for every RPS past the first. Can I be penalized?(I am playing random moves after all.)
I contend that coming up with an RPS throw in one's head is randomization. I f you disagree, then tell me what move I'm thinking right now. Do you think you have better than a one in three chance?

You can’t use codes or deception in your notes. Your notes must be open/readable by your opponent
Q.*** Can I take notes in code or make deceptive notes during a match?
A.*** Per the tournament rules, your notes must be taken timely, restricted to changes in game state and open to review by the other player. Codes hinder both review and timeliness, because you have to explain them to the opponent. Of course, dubious game actions intended to deceive the opponent may earn a disqualification for unsporting conduct (i.e. no deceptive notes).
What if I am in the juniors age groups and my opponent doesnt know how to read yet?
I can't take notes out loud because using a tape recorder would be an electronic device which is against the rules,

Just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes...

[BloodDraek]

What if I am in the juniors age groups and my opponent doesnt know how to read yet?I can't take notes out loud because using a tape recorder would be an electronic device which is against the rules,

Just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes...

If you can't read you probably won't be playing pokemon Frankie. I mean how often is this event going to come up that it is going to be a huge problem.

[Diaz]

If you can't read you probably won't be playing pokemon Frankie. I mean how often is this event going to come up that it is going to be a huge problem.
I've seen players play (and win (alot)) without being able to read.

[trog]

Actually we have a player that plays at most of our tournaments that is four and she can't read. She is a pretty good player by the way.

[Muscovy Level X]

Thanks! Good idea to have the basics put up.

[charchar]

oh, alot of new suttf :O
this will help alot of poeple

[bulbasnore]

I'll bite... :lol::nonono::tongue: because I'm bold or at least my replies are

Are all of these rules in the compendium already.

> answered in the original post

pleople being penalized at major events for rearanging the discard pile

> I'm shocked to the point of disbelief

Can I have all the cards on my bench sideways to prevent the mixing of my deck and bench.

> depending on how it crowds out your neighbor or confuses/distracts your opponent could be a penalty

May I randomly choose RPS moves at home...

> you can't appear to randomize the choice

What if ... my opponent doesnt know how to read yet?

> then you don't need codes

Just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes...

> maybe next time

There's a reason I think of most of this stuff as 'the finer points' but that doesn't matter. Really what we're trying to do here is prepare players to excel at the big events, without being tripped up by 'the finer points'. You can mock it or run it to logical absurdity as much as you want, its still going to be easier to just steer clear, if you're trying to win & have fun.

[Dragon100]

thx bulbasnore for the updates.im looking forward towards your next podcast on the gym

[octillery49]

RPS should be 1-2-3-throw, not 1-2-throw (again, not how we do it where I’m from, but we’ll adjust!)
Q. *** Is Rock-Paper-Scissors played by pumping my arm 2 times then throwing my choice, or pumping 3 times then throw?
A.*** Players should agree on this between themselves before playing. If they can’t agree, the default to be used will be a three-count priming and then the simultaneous throw of the choice, for example, “Rock-Paper-Scissors-Shoot” with the choice thrown on “shoot”.


What happens then if me and my opponet are playing rps. I say: Rock-Paper-Scissors-Shoot.
My opponent just says rock-paper-scissors. We both throw our hand signs, but he throws first since
he said it wrong. What is a judge supposed to do?

[bulbasnore]

What is a judge supposed to do?

If its me?
Listen to your explanation when you call me over.
Determine you mis-timed the throws.
Have you throw again with the default method.
Write you both a caution/warning, depending on tier, for failing to agree on game state (and to track potential shenanigans).
Tell you to have a nice match and enjoy the tournament.thx bulbasnore for the updates.im looking forward towards your next podcast on the gym

Thanks. Setting up now for Storm Front: art, collectors value & metagame impact. Nov 3. So far, 'Pop & ryanvergel are on board... more to come!

[Lucario EX]

What happens then if me and my opponet are playing rps. I say: Rock-Paper-Scissors-Shoot.
My opponent just says rock-paper-scissors. We both throw our hand signs, but he throws first since
he said it wrong. What is a judge supposed to do?

Probably the judge would tell you to decide when to throw and then replay. Can't say that every single judge will do this at every single event, of course.

[Rainbowgym]

I have a nice one, which leaded to much discussions among "experienced" players.

When time is called, and the active player finished it's turn, the judge is the one who determinates the outcome.
So leave you cards on the table, it's not up to the players at that point to decide who won/lost. (not even the experienced ones).

[doomsday24]

This is great to have, I will be printing this out to have with me for my tournaments.

This is the only one that I do and will be the toughest to stop doing lol. Though, I only play the deck sideways and not the discard pile. To me it makes it easier NOT to reveal information when I draw, but thems the breaks. :wink:

Luckily I judge a LOT more than I play, so I have lots of time to get out of the habit. :biggrin:

Your deck cannot be placed ’sideways’ but your discard pile can (this one hurt, because I love a sideways deck, but I’ll live!)
Q.*** I like to keep my deck and discard pile sideways to help me keep them separate from my bench. Is that OK?
A.*** Your deck must be oriented vertically, to avoid revealing information during handling or cuts. You may turn your discard pile ’sideways’, to help you distinguish it from your bench.

[bulbasnore]

When time is called, and the active player finished it's turn, the judge is the one who determinates the outcome.

Not that I recall or can find anywhere. We do tell the players to call a judge if they're still playing at time. However, that is just an insurance measure against players not noticing or mishandling the end of round.

Though, I only play the deck sideways and not the discard pile. To me it makes it easier NOT to reveal information when I draw, but thems the breaks.

Easier not to reveal info to the opponent. However, as I understand POP's concern, they don't want players being able to get information from cards during handling of their own deck.

[stevo0236]

ugg im going to have trouble not putting my deck sideways

[EeveeLover]

Thanks for putting this all together. I am gonna print a copy for this weekend to give to my new Judges for a good, fast reference.

[Rainbowgym]

Not that I recall or can find anywhere. We do tell the players to call a judge if they're still playing at time. However, that is just an insurance measure against players not noticing or mishandling the end of round.


It's there, we had a long discussion about it.
The way "when time is called" is discribed it says the judge determines ............... ...........
The Judge not the players, that's what it says.
Tournament rules 18.7.2

[bulbasnore]

A judge being present will be the common case in 2of3 matches at top cut, but I don't think that 18.7.2 usage specifically excludes the players from making the call. It rather is telling the judge how to make the call when present/necessary.

[Rainbowgym]

A judge being present will be the common case in 2of3 matches at top cut, but I don't think that 18.7.2 usage specifically excludes the players from making the call. It rather is telling the judge how to make the call when present/necessary.

That's how I did read it to, and it does make sense (most of all if scorekeepers are used).

I think I have to go into discussion about this one more time. ( not on the gym but in real live)

[Red Haired Shanks]

These rules seem better and seem more organized. The thing that makes me sad that it will be way easier now to get DQ'd. I probably cannot last the season.

-Norman

[mumsascrappa]

Fabulous information. Thanks so much for putting it in writing for all to see and learn from. :thumb::thumb:

[doomsday24]

Easier not to reveal info to the opponent. However, as I understand POP's concern, they don't want players being able to get information from cards during handling of their own deck.

That does seem fair. :biggrin:

Now I just have to brush up on that teaching an old dog a new trick thing. :lol:

[bulbasnore]

Now I just have to brush up on that teaching an old dog a new trick thing. :lol:

Yep, I had just gotten used to the beauties of having my deck sideways when I saw Mike Liesik explain 'deck vertical' at a judge meeting and I was :eek::frown::cool:.

[doomsday24]

I just explained this to Jared at league tonight. It sure went over well. We spent the entire game pointing out each and every time the other did just that during the games (usually by using a finger to tap the turned sideways deck). Not to mention I spent the entire night mentally slapping my hand every time I caught myself.

This is soooo going to take time to get used to. :lol:

[Prime]

I know at Nationals, the judges wanted the prizes to look a certain way (2 rows of 3). Could that be included with this stuff?

[PokePop]

I know at Nationals, the judges wanted the prizes to look a certain way (2 rows of 3). Could that be included with this stuff?

That was just an individual judge thing, not a POP mandate.
The only rules for prizes is that they have to be on the opposite side from the deck & discard, and they have to all be visible. The exact arrangement is up to the player.

[DukeFireBird]

With the prizes, players are going to rearrange them especially after an Azelf useage, to remember what cards are where, I know I do this, but I make the pile neat and orderly as possible.

~Duke

[bulbasnore]

The exact arrangement is up to the player.

There are times when its OK for the HJ/TO to specify the default arrangement.

It varies by the conditions of the tournament as to space, staffing, table color and so forth. It is something that can legitimately be spoken to by the HJ/TO. When you have 50 players with different arrangements, including florettes, pyramids and cascades of various types (the case was folks were trying to be unique) many of which were causing the play area to be displaced, and few of which were readable at a glance, it's OK to tell the players 2x3 and remind the stragglers to fix it as you walk by (usually just a tap does it).

Not penalty worthy unless the player keeps returning to an 'arrangement' that camoflages the number of prizes remaining in some way (overlapped cascade of black sleeves on black table in poorly lit space (Shuffle & Cut@LaMirada CA).

[PokePop]

There are times when its OK for the HJ/TO to specify the default arrangement.

It varies by the conditions of the tournament as to space, staffing, table color and so forth. It is something that can legitimately be spoken to by the HJ/TO. When you have 50 players with different arrangements, including florettes, pyramids and cascades of various types (the case was folks were trying to be unique) many of which were causing the play area to be displaced, and few of which were readable at a glance, it's OK to tell the players 2x3 and remind the stragglers to fix it as you walk by (usually just a tap does it).

Not penalty worthy unless the player keeps returning to an 'arrangement' that camoflages the number of prizes remaining in some way (overlapped cascade of black sleeves on black table in poorly lit space (Shuffle & Cut@LaMirada CA).

Very true.
Space considerations and ease of visibility will trump "individual expression"

[MirChamp]

If you are allowed to take notes, then what can your notes contain. I mean if you may not write in code, and i use time walk to see my prizes, may i write down what i see, and if so why should the opponent be able to read it.

[PokePop]

If you are allowed to take notes, then what can your notes contain. I mean if you may not write in code, and i use time walk to see my prizes, may i write down what i see, and if so why should the opponent be able to read it.

Pokemon Organized Play recently revised their ruling about taking notes for Time Walk.
Since note taking is only supposed to include Game State information and since the contents of your prizes are not public information (and therefore not Game State), you cannot take any notes about the contents of your prizes.
You can note that you used Time Walk and what Pokemon you may have taken from the prizes, but no notes on anything that is not public info.

[PokePop]

Pokemon Organized Play recently revised their ruling about taking notes for Time Walk.
Since note taking is only supposed to include Game State information and since the contents of your prizes are not public information (and therefore not Game State), you cannot take any notes about the contents of your prizes.
You can note that you used Time Walk and what Pokemon you may have taken from the prizes, but no notes on anything that is not public info.

Update to this.
Rules for note taking have changed since this was posted.
Now only the player and the judge may see the notes, so contents of prizes, or other private info, may be included in notes.
They must still be readable by a another party (the judge).