elekid can evolve into electrabuzz ex

[TrEkIeV]

can elekid evolve into electrabuzz ex? are there any rules in the compendium that could parrallel itself to a rule like this?

[Maverick Hunter Zero]

There have already been a few threads on this, and the most agreed upon answer is no.

The fact that it has EX in its name has led most people to rationalize that it's a completely different Pokemon than Electabuzz, much in the same that Lt. Surge's Electabuzz is different from the Base Set Electabuzz.

[TrEkIeV]

can elekid evolve into electrabuzz ex? are there any rules in the compendium that could parrallel itself to a rule like this?

oh i was just thinking, since cards like Typhlosion Ex evolve from regular Quilava, would it mean that Electrabuzz Ex can evolve from regular Elekid?

[dkates]

As was said in the other thread(s), it's different because it's Elekid that has text allowing it to evolve into Electabuzz, not the other way around. Typhlosion ex has text on it saying it evolves from Quilava, so it does. Electabuzz ex has no text saying it can evolve from Elekid, so it can't.

[TrEkIeV]

As was said in the other thread(s), it's different because it's Elekid that has text allowing it to evolve into Electabuzz, not the other way around. Typhlosion ex has text on it saying it evolves from Quilava, so it does. Electabuzz ex has no text saying it can evolve from Elekid, so it can't.

the reason why the Electabuzz ex lacks the specific text is because there are no babies in the EX R/S set. there was no need to include this text.

[TrEkIeV]

has there been any offical rulings? posted by mtjimmer or professor dave perhaps? i value all the opinons on this matter, but honestly, i think you guys are wrong. you guys can continue to give me reason on why it wont work, but the bottom line is, you guys dont even know for sure. so, can someone please give me somethig offical rather than just guesses.

[Mr. Grass]

No. We can't give you anything official. Until Nintendo starts a chat session or appoints someone to distribute rulings the only real body that can issue rulings is the players themselves, specifically the former/current Pokemon Professors. It's not exactly official, but it's the best we've got right now.
I agree with the response you've gotten. Thus far all rulings on evolution have implied that in order for a pokemon to evolve either the new card must referrence the old card precisely by name (IE Charizard evolves from Charmeleon) or the old card must referrence the new card by name (Pichu evolves into Pikachu). In keeping with that ruling, Blaine's Charmeleon cannot evolve into Dark Charizard and Pichu cannot evolve into Lt. Surge's Pikachu. Since Elekid says it evolves into "Electabuzz" it cannot evolve into "Electabuzz EX" because those are 2 different names.
The only exception I've noticed with this ruling is Pokemon Breeder, which lets you skip ahead from basic to stage 2.

[dkates]

And even then, the case has to be that the Stage 1 the Stage 2 would evolve from evolves from the Basic, i.e. you can't Breeder Charmander to Blaine's Charizard.

[TrEkIeV]

another thing you guys have left out is that Lt. Surge's Pikachu, Surfing Pikachu, Flying Pikachu, Cool Porygon, Dark Raichu, ect... all have the difference of name in FRONT. Pokemon ex have the letters ex in BACK of the name. This difference is in the Prefix and Suffix. I dont believe Pokemon-ex should be compared to Special Trainer Pokémon (such as Erika's Oddish) the way same Special Trainer Pokemon are compared with Dark Pokemon.

what i'm trying to say is Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon should be in different categories and their rulings would not be parallel to base a ruling.

[Orange Soda]

The ruling has always been "different name". Why should "prefix" and "suffix" be considered different?

[TrEkIeV]

The ruling has always been "different name". Why should "prefix" and "suffix" be considered different?

For examples, the Unown pokemon have "different names", but are considered to be the "same pokemon" and that is why you are only allowed to have up to 4 in a deck. you can see how the "prefix" and "suffix" are considered different.

[dkates]

The Unowns have a special text for that. If even one letter is different (other than a misprint), it's a differenet Pokemon unless the card says otherwise.

[Prime]

I think they did the unown restriction because I believe they said, "it would make decks too powerful" or something. Well it would. You try making a FIND deck or something else now, its alot harder, but if you could have 4 of each letter, you would have like easy picking to get it out. I'm not 100% on it though.

Right now, play as you want. Don't care what the people here are saying. It's all rather useless unless you want to be prepared for the game in which nobody can, because there isn't enough information. But if it were me, I would see Electabuzz EX and Electabuzz as two different cards. Just like surge and not surge. So you would read on the elekid card what it can evolve into and do that. But again, nobody has to follow any rules until Nintendo posts them lol.

[yoshi1001]

Actually, the Unown contain a special card rule printed on them, otherwise they would count as cards with different names, and you could use 4 of each in a deck. As for suffixes and prefixes, keep in mind that Nidoran male and female (which are not all that dissimilar in relation to the Unown) are considered to have different names, and thus you can have 4 of each in a deck, so the prefix/suffix issue is moot.

[DOMCGI]

With the "EX" at the end of the name making this be a completely different Pokemon. It is why you can have 4 Electabuzz and 4 Electabuzz EX in the same deck.

If following TrEkIeV's reason that the suffix do not make the EX be a different Pokemon, you would only have a total of 4 "Electabuzz + Electabuzz EX".

Since the current mostly acceptance rule (I don't any ADV official rule yet) is allowed having 4 Electabuzz and 4 Electabuzz EX in the deck, the EX is a different Pokemon and cannot evolved from any existing Baby.

In the future, we may have an official rule on this; or a Baby including "EX" in the text.

[JohnnyBlaze]

With the "EX" at the end of the name making this be a completely different Pokemon. It is why you can have 4 Electabuzz and 4 Electabuzz EX in the same deck.

If following TrEkIeV's reason that the suffix do not make the EX be a different Pokemon, you would only have a total of 4 "Electabuzz + Electabuzz EX".

Since the current mostly acceptance rule (I don't any ADV official rule yet) is allowed having 4 Electabuzz and 4 Electabuzz EX in the deck, the EX is a different Pokemon and cannot evolved from any existing Baby.

In the future, we may have an official rule on this; or a Baby including "EX" in the text.

I dont follow that logic. I have to agree with trekieV on this one. Simply put is that you can now have 4 Typhlosion and 4 Typhlosion Ex in one deck but there can only be 4 Quilava that can use the 8 different evos. Since Electabuzz Ex is considered a basic there should be no reason that Elekid cannot evolve into it.

This can be debated over and over the bottom line is that a definitive ruling needs to be made at some point.

[bullados]

Simple, easy. The text on Elekid reads, "Can evolve into Electabuzz". Because Electabuzz ex has a different name, it is a different card, and cannot evolve from Elekid. Elekid can ONLY evolve into a card named, "Electabuzz". No prefixes, no suffixes, just "Electabuzz". It does not say "Electabuzz ex", so therefore, according to the TPC ruling on names, Elekid CANNOT evolve into Electabuzz ex.

Now, why you would WANT to do such a thing is completely beyond me...

[Orange Soda]

I just now looked in the EX: Ruby & Sapphire rulebook.

Illegal Evolutions
Wnenever you evolve a Pokemon, the Evolution card has to say it "Evolves from" the name of the Pokemon it goes on top of. Special Trainer Pokemon (such as Erika's Oddish) or Pokemon-ex (like Scyther ex) don't evolve into normal versions. A Pokemon card would have to state "Evolves from Scyther ex" to allow for that evolution.

Since it specifically states that Pokemon ex can't evolve into a normal Pokemon unless specifically stated, it therefore makes the prefix versus suffix point moot.

[TrEkIeV]

If following TrEkIeV's reason that the suffix do not make the EX be a different Pokemon, you would only have a total of 4 "Electabuzz + Electabuzz EX".


my reasoning is that not that Electabuzz and Electabuzz EX are the same cards. my reasoning is that Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.


this special text reasoning is also moot :rolleyes: , when aquapolis elekid was released, Electrabuzz EX did not even exist, there was no need for this fancy special text.

so, let me restate some of my points.

regular Quilava can evolve into Typhlosion ex (even without special text, it is just there as a reminder)

regular Elekid can evolve into Electrabuzz ex (no special text is needed)

if you want to bring up special text again, let me repeat myself:
when aquapolis elekid was released, Electrabuzz EX did not even exist, there was no need for this fancy special text.

if you want to bring up the fact that they have different names, then let me repeat myself again:

Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.

[Orange Soda]

regular Quilava can evolve into Typhlosion ex (even without special text, it is just there as a reminder)

While anyone familiar with Pokemon Gold and Silver can tell you that Quilava evolves into Typhlosian, Evolution text is still an essential part of the card. For instance, Tyranitar evolves from Pupitar, and Dark Tyranitar evolves from Dark Pupitar, but Shining Tyranitar is a Basic Pokemon, and does not evolve from any sort of Pupitar. That little bit of text does make all the difference.

[yoshi1001]

my reasoning is that not that Electabuzz and Electabuzz EX are the same cards. my reasoning is that Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.


this special text reasoning is also moot :rolleyes: , when aquapolis elekid was released, Electrabuzz EX did not even exist, there was no need for this fancy special text.

so, let me restate some of my points.

regular Quilava can evolve into Typhlosion ex (even without special text, it is just there as a reminder)

regular Elekid can evolve into Electrabuzz ex (no special text is needed)

if you want to bring up special text again, let me repeat myself:
when aquapolis elekid was released, Electrabuzz EX did not even exist, there was no need for this fancy special text.

if you want to bring up the fact that they have different names, then let me repeat myself again:

Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.
Unfortunately, as Orange Soda posted, the rulebook does not support your conclusion, and do recall that Pokemon tcg rules trend (especially lately) to what is simple and enforcable. Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat.

[GoldenZnok170]

Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.
Says who? There isn't a rule that states that there is a difference. In the 5 years the tcg is around, the only thing that mattered with problems like this is the name of the card. Both prefix and suffix are part of that name. Like yoshi1001 said, the nidoran cards are a perfect example.
Right now the game is played the way it is explained in the RS rulebook and according to that rulebook (or any previous one) it's still the ENTIRE name of the card that counts and that includes prefix and suffix. So until they officially announce there's a difference (which is very unlikely), elekid cannot evolve into electabuzz ex!

[PokePop]

For examples, the Unown pokemon have "different names", but are considered to be the "same pokemon" and that is why you are only allowed to have up to 4 in a deck. you can see how the "prefix" and "suffix" are considered different.

Still reading through this, but all of the Unown are considered different Pokemon. If you were to play Blaine's Quiz 3 and say "Hidden Power" as the attack name, your opponent would have to get the Unown name exactly right (for example, "Unown M"). If all they say is "Unown" or "Unown P", you get to draw three cards.

The text on the cards causes the limitation, not any kind of assumed ruling of "they're all the same".

[PokePop]

my reasoning is that not that Electabuzz and Electabuzz EX are the same cards. my reasoning is that Pokemon-ex and Prefix pokemon are not in same categories for rulings, they are not the same. They are similar, but not the same.

...

so, let me restate some of my points.

regular Quilava can evolve into Typhlosion ex (even without special text, it is just there as a reminder)

regular Elekid can evolve into Electrabuzz ex (no special text is needed)



Point 1: You have given no reason the think that "prefix" Pokemon and "suffix" Pokemon are not in the same category for rulings.
"Gym" Pokemon and Unown "letter" pokemon are examples of prefix and suffix pokemon and they are all treated as different than those with different pre/suf-fixes (see my Blaine's Quiz example above).

The points you restate are what you are trying to get agreement on. They are not agreed upon at all and therefore have no weight in your arguement. Repeating them often does not add any truth to them.

[Dendrobatida]

My two cents:

I'm thinking you can't evolve elekid into electabuzz EX. In order to do so, as a few others have pointed out, Electabuzz EX or elekid would require some form of text referencing the specific evolve, because EX and the basic are two different pokemon entities. If we're looking for a precedent for this, In absence of a set ruling from TPTB (for all you Angel fans out there), I think that precedent might be shining pokemon. They're big (like EX), they're basic (like EX, prior to sandstorm), and, though they are similar to pokemon that evolve from a basic out there, they can't. Take, for example, shining gyarados. Gyarados can evolve from magikarp, but shining gyarados can't.

For that, and all the other reasons enumerated by others, Electabuzz EX can't evolve from elekid.

By the way, y'all might want to look up the meaning of the word "moot". It does not mean that the point is rendered obsolete, irrelevant, or 'dead'. It means that the point is debatable and still very much alive. Alas for the death of proper English...and, since I'm being obnoxiously nerdy as only we English teachers can be, where's my little braniac smilie giving his little lecture? I miss him....

[bullados]

In terms of the Typhlosion EX example, there will be text on the Typhlosion ex card that states, "Evolves from Quilava", thus making it legal. However, since there is no such text on Electabuzz ex, nor is there text referring to Electabuzz ex specifically on the Elekid card, that particular evolution cannot and will not take place.

[Otaku]

In terms of the Typhlosion EX example, there will be text on the Typhlosion ex card that states, "Evolves from Quilava", thus making it legal. However, since there is no such text on Electabuzz ex, nor is there text referring to Electabuzz ex specifically on the Elekid card, that particular evolution cannot and will not take place.

:clap: (Man I hate that smiley... it just seems wrong but it serves its purpose). Bullados hit the nail on the head: all cards that evolve either stated what they evolve into or what they evolved from. As for the hypothesis that prefix and suffix are different, we have seen evidence to the contrary. Finally, as for the argument that AQ Elekid existed before Electabuzz ex... nope. Electabuzz ex was out in Japan early enough that this ruling would almost certainly have lead to corrective text on either one of our both of the cards. Simply put, if a new card interacts with an older card in a "new" way, then the new card will contain text explaining it. That's how the babies work to begin with: they can evolve into basics only because they have text on them that explains that. So if TPC wanted the ex Pokemon to beable to evolve from something, then like Typhlosion ex, they would say so.

[Chrisbo]

UPDATE - I called and spoke with MT_Jimmer personally about this, and he said that you cannot evolve Elekid into Electabuzz EX. The current wording on Elekid does not permit such an evolution. This may or may not change in future releases, but that's the way it is for now.

(Man I miss the chats! :( )

Enjoy,
- CHRISBO

[TrEkIeV]

honestly, i still think you guys are all wrong, but are not open minded enough to see things... i undersand people dont like change, and when someone brings up a few good reasons, they can't handle it. thats fine, have a nice day.

=)

[dkates]

honestly, i still think you guys are all wrong, but are not open minded enough to see things... i undersand people dont like change, and when someone brings up a few good reasons, they can't handle it. thats fine, have a nice day.Believe me, I would like for things like this to be possible, but have you ever heard of something called precedent? It refers to how a previous issue of similar nature has been handled, and makes the model for how future issues of that nature are decided. You have some logic on your side (not much, but some), but we have logic and precedent on ours.

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

Sorry Trekiev but an MT's word is law. :clap:
It is very possible that future Elekid will have some sort of wording. But MtJimmer has spoken & without mt's to tell whats right, is there a right? :confused:

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

Now he questions MTjimmer?

Believe me, we've had situations where WotC ruled and later backtracked... BUT as of now it has been ruled.

THANKS CHRISBO for following up with the POWERS that be :P

[GuardianTIM]

TrEkIeV, if you can evolve Elekid to Electabuzz EX, then Scizor is a water type, Flannery has a beard, and I'm an Aipom's uncle.

As 'Pop said, all because you don't like the rulings doesn't mean they'll change if you keep saying that you're right and the rules are wrong.

Personally, I'm with Yoshi, OrangeSoda, Dendrobatida, PokePop, GoldenZnok170, bullados, DOMCGI, Mr. Grass, dkates, and Maverick Hunter Zero on this one.
The only people I've seen who either side with you or abstain from this argument are JohnnyBlaze, Prime, and you.
Therefore, the vote is 11vs2 (prime was staying neutral), so I think the general idea is that you can't evolve regular 'Elekid' into 'Electabuzz ex'.


EDIT: Oops!!! Didn't notice there was a Page2!!! Oh well, at least it's cleared up. Have a great day everyone!

[Broken Lizard]

*Sigh*

This thread just points out the extreme need for official rulings. In order to have a coherent game, all players must have the same understanding of the rules.

Personally, I do not want to spend all my playing/judging time arguing rulings that have actually been settled, or which are exactly parallel to settled rulings.

This case was easy (the answer IS no), but other rulings are more thorny. We NEED a source for official rulings, and soon. Certainly, we need one well before the first sanctioned constructed tournaments begin.

Speaking of those tournaments, we need to get those moving. The game is losing momentum and players. Now that WotC is finished with the game, Nintendo needs to make some announcements as soon as possible.

Thanks again to TC for making the job of judging so much easier. Without the Compendium (and the official WotC document created from it), we'd be rehashing rulings a lot more often than we already do.

[Nintenfreak]

I don't think hte question is, "Can I evolve Elekid into Electabuzz ex?", as much it is, "Why would I put Electabuzz ex on the Elekid to begin with."

Future Elekid may have a more broad evolution Power text, such as, "Evolves into a Pokemon with Electabuzz in it's name."

[Kyogre]

honestly, i still think you guys are all wrong, but are not open minded enough to see things... i undersand people dont like change, and when someone brings up a few good reasons, they can't handle it. thats fine, have a nice day.

=)

Actually you are being rather close minded, thinking you are right and everyone else is wrong. I think any TCG player wants normal rules to be broken and things to change, because that adds more fun to the game. And I'm sure we all can handle a few changes but it still doesn't change the issue here. The prefix and suffix of a title makes it a completely different card, despite how close the name is to the original. And on elekid it says evolves into "Electabuzz" not "Electabuzz EX" or "Lt. Surge Electabuzz". Also on Typhlosion EX it says evolves from "Quilava", not "Dark Quilava". Card text is very specific for a reason, and its not that hard to figure it out.

[PokePop]

By the way, y'all might want to look up the meaning of the word "moot". It does not mean that the point is rendered obsolete, irrelevant, or 'dead'. It means that the point is debatable and still very much alive. Alas for the death of proper English...and, since I'm being obnoxiously nerdy as only we English teachers can be, where's my little braniac smilie giving his little lecture? I miss him....

Since the issue seems to be settled, I'll feel free to go off topic on this tangent.

Den: Can you give a reference to a definition (pref. one found online).
My understanding of the word "moot" is that it is a point that is suitable for debate, but, importantly, only suitable for debate and not action as the issue has already been acted on or resolved in some manner. So, while debate may rage on and someone may eventually be declared "right", it has no impact on reality since the original problem is closed.

One of my personal pet peeves is people using "mute" when the mean moot. Of course, (Friends') Joey's use of "Moo", as in, "The point is Moo. Only a cow cares anymore" was hilarious.

[DOMCGI]

Just see the scan of the Elekid in the Sandstorm

http://www.sugarshock.net/zeo/tcg/sandstorm/

the text printed on it is:
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may put Electabuzz from your hand onto Elekid (this counts as evolving Elekid) and remove all damage counters from Elekid.

The argument "there is no Electabuzz EX while printing producing Elekid" is not valid any more. Even in the EX-Sandstorm set, the Elekid still do not including Electabuzz EX.

Since "Electabuzz EX" and "Electabuzz" are two different pokemons, you cannot put "Electabuzz EX" on Elekid when it only ask for "Electabuzz".

Of course, Nintendo can rule this whatever they want in the future. I personally think the Elekid in Sandstorm is just errorly miss the "Electabuzz EX" text. But as long as the text unchanged and we still using WOTC ruling logic, Elekid cannot evolve to Electabuzz EX.

[DaytonGymLeader]

from www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/):

moot
n.
An ancient English meeting, especially a representative meeting of the freemen of a shire.tr.v. moot·ed, moot·ing, moots
. Law. To plead or argue (a case) in a moot court.[/list]adj.
Of no practical importance; irrelevant.[/list]

[GuardianTIM]

Just see the scan of the Elekid in the Sandstorm

Since "Electabuzz EX" and "Electabuzz" are two different pokemons, you cannot put "Electabuzz EX" on Elekid when it only ask for "Electabuzz".



Although this is also of little real importance, perhaps I should tell you that the plural of Pokemon is Pokemon. Kinda like One Fish, Two Fish...
Or at least, that's what I always thought.

[NoPoke]

reminder text on cards is printed in italics It looks like the instruction on Typhlosion Ex that it "Evolves from Quilava" is in italics. So that would suggest to me that somewhere else there should be a rule on what Typhlosion Ex evolves from. Isn't there just such an example in the pre-construct's rule book?
i can't locate my copy at the moment.

The only cards that evolve as far as the rules of the game are concerned are Basics and Stage 1s. Under WotC babies were a special case and had appropriate text on them, now they have a power instead. Evolution involved placing a higher stage card onto a lower one, babies had special text to alow them to specify what they evolve into, but the general rule was for cards to say what they evolve from. So even though I'd probably prefer the 'evolves from Quilava' text not to be in italics I don't see it as a massive problem that the text is just reminding us of the correct evolution sequence.

[MewCelebi]

:clap: [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red]how do you do the draw 2 cards and shuffle your hand's 2 cards :lol:

[dkates]

Sure you're talking about the right card? If there's something about Mary, start a new thread.
:dodges tomato: Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Captain Obviousx1]

"Ask the Master Trainers" says that 'Buzz EX can't be played on Elekid as an evolution. There, now this thread can die in peace. ^_^

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

"Ask the Master Trainers" says that 'Buzz EX can't be played on Elekid as an evolution. There, now this thread can die in peace. ^_^

In that case it was worth all the effort of creating the new forum!!! :lol:

BDS