Rare Candy Question...

[Kyogre]

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

Now my question is this, can this card be used to by-pass the rule that makes you not allowed to evolve a pokemon at a certain time. (i.e. when you first bench the Pokemon, or on the first turn). The reason I bring this up is b/c on Pokemon Breeder it actually says that you can only play it when you can evolve that pokemon, but this card doesn't.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

Judging by how Wotc ruled(and I sincerely hope it's wrong in this case), yes, you could evolve first turn(or the turn the pokemon is put into play).

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Actually, I would say that since you are taking the evolution from your hand, and since the card says "This counts as evolving that Pokemon", the normal rules of evolution would apply. The WotC rulings that let cards get around the normal rules of evolution centered on the evolution coming from the deck. Therefore I'd say, no first turn evolution or evolving on the same turn the Basic is played.

BDS

[Jeremy Badeaux]

I wish Pokemon USA would just put out some rulings(or a rulings FAQ for that matter), I see both sides of this.

I agree with what BDS says, however it could be argued that with the trainer playing the card from your hand it would bypass normal evolution rules.

[Kyogre]

Why would that be bad? I think it would add a new twist to the game. And besides, its the EON Breeder.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

It would be bad that until MF rotates, people could have turn 1 harvest bounty Venusaur with wild growth Meganium(not to mention the hoard of other potential problems).

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

Why couldn't they just make another Pokemon Breeder called Pokemon Breeder so we could use the old ones? :(

[Pablo]

i agree with pidgeotto trainer, i spent days and traded really good stuff, to get all my 4 RH breeder, and now they aren't worth playing :s, that sucks.

[Darkleaf Master]

Today at the Sandstorm prelrelease I attended, a head judge was telling me that if anybody gave me trouble with rare candy, to call him over, they had decided that rare candy did bypass the no evo on first turn rule... My two cents ^_^

[Porygon3]

I really had hoped they would add the sentice "you may only do this if you were able to evolve normaly"

unforantly, since NoA (aparently) does not care about unlimmited play (?Sigh) this is ... broken - its still powerfull in E- on ... sigh...

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Jeremy Badeaux pointed out to me that the card says to pick a stage 1 or 2, so unless it is just worded really strange, it most likely is intended to bypass the normal rules of evolution. Otherwise, there would be no reason to reference a stage 1, which you could play anyway. If the ruling goes this way, the card will see LOTS of play, and the game just got a speed fix!

Oh Jimmer .....

BDS

[dkates]

I guess even Modified needed a speed boost. And for Unlimited, maybe Stage 2's will finally come back into use. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

[Pablo]

wow, if it is meant to avoid normal evolution rules, this card will be played in every evolution deck, just think of it, a swapert deck, could actually get going with a bit of luck, on turn 1 it could be dealing 50 damage, or actually powering up another poke, such as wailord ex, man, this card has so many possibilities, and is totally broken if it is to be played as it is written

[Timmy Two Tone]

Rare Candy:

Choose 1 of your basic Pokemon in play. If you have a stage 1 or stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in you hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon)

I would agree with BDS first ruling that you would follow the normal rules of evolution, since the card states This counts as evolving that Pokemon

The reason for the the stage 1 or stage 2 wording is to allow you to evolve Raichu or Raichu EX from a Pichu, and in the future other "Baby" Pokemon into the stage 1 evolution line. Baby Pokemon are no longer Baby Pokemon they are now Basic Pokemon and in the case of Pichu and Raichu you could use Rare Candy to evolve and skip the Pikachu stage.

That is my 2 cents anyway :)

[yoshi1001]

Well, lets look at it this way. The normal rules of evolution are fundemtal rules of the game. How do you get around a fundamental rule of the game? Generally, you explicitly state so on the card. Rare Candy does not say "even if it's your first turn," and "even if you played or evolved the pokemon this turn." Thus, as I see it, you cannot use the card to bypass evolution rules.

As for the inclusion of Stage ones, that may (as triple T stated) be to include "babies" evolving into stage 1s (remember how you can't breeder Pichu into Raichu, maybe you can Rare Candy it).

[BJJ763]

The "Counts as Evolving" is just a reminder that if the Pokémon has a Special Condition, it would be removed. Just like other means of evolving that break the Evolution rule.

I ruled that Rare Candy, as worded and based upon past rulings, could be first turn as it's a Trainer card just like the Trainer Giovanni, it breaks the normal rules of Evolution.

[yoshi1001]

Except, Giovanni says:

Giovanni
Trainer
Choose 1 of your Pokémon in play with Giovanni in its name. For the rest of your turn, you may evolve that Pokémon even if you just played or evolved it this turn or if this is your first turn. This effect also applies to the Pokémon it evolves into.

Rare Candy lacks this text.

[BJJ763]

Giovanni doesn't allow you to put a Stage 2 on the Basic. Giovanni allows you put put a Stage 1 on the Basic and/or Stage 2 on the Stage 1. Rare Candy allows a Stage 2 to be put on the basic without the necessary Stage 1. So it breaks the Evolution Rule. Just like Giovanni.

[Timmy Two Tone]

Yoshi is correct the card does not state that you can skip the normal rule of evolution. And the only other trainer card that allowed for 1st turn evolution did specifically state to skip that rule.

I just can't see being able to evolve to a stage 2 on 1st turn, or as soon as a basic is laid down. I'd really like to see an officail ruling from Nintendo. I'd rule as stated above.

[BJJ763]

Does Eevee have "Can be used first turn" on either the Energy Evolution or the Chain Reaction one?

[yoshi1001]

BJJ: I fail to see what bearing your post has to do with the issue Which stages of Pokemon can be used has nothing to do with when you can evolve. The only way to evolve on the first turn without having a card explicitly saying so is to draw the cards from the deck.

By the way, you pointed out a dissimilarity between the cards, then said they were just like each other. Just pointing that out. (Yes, I realize you meant that they both broke evolution rules, but still, different evolution rules). ;)

Now, back to the subject at hand. The arguement is what is the default case? The card is neither written in the form of Pokemon Breeder or Giovanni. It lacks either's additional text.

One way to look at this is to view the card without the additional text. In this case, Giovanni makes no sense. Pokemon trader could be implied to allow evolution on the first turn. So, obviously, one of the cards contains Dummy Text.

Dummy Text is text that can be ommited from the card without changing the rulings involved with the card. It is typically included to make things easier for the people in charge by reducing the number of frivolous rulings questions brought to their attention (though this doesn't always work).

Therefore, either Pokemon Breeder has the dummy text, and it's not necessary to put the phrase in because you have to explicitly state you can violate the first-turn evolution rule (or draw from the deck) in order to do it, or, Giovanni has it because just saying you can evolve is good enough to allow you to break the evolution rule.

So, which is it? Well, at this point we're trying to divine the intent of the card creators. What did they want us to believe? I can't claim to know exactly what they were thinking when they were making the card, but I can make an educated guess.

The question then becomes, how do we analyze the content of these cards:

Giovanni
Trainer
Choose 1 of your Pokémon in play with Giovanni in its name. For the rest of your turn, you may evolve that Pokémon even if you just played or evolved it this turn or if this is your first turn. This effect also applies to the Pokémon it evolves into.

Source: Oracle

Pokémon Breeder
Trainer card
Put a Stage 2 Evolution card from your hand on the matching Basic Pokémon. You can play this card only when you would be allowed to evolve that Pokémon anyway.

Source: Oracle

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

Source: Above

Well, I'd like to continue on this tangent, but it's getting late and I really need to think about this some more. So, I'll see you tomorrow with more.

[Prime]

Rare candy says the same thing as pokemon breeder just in a different way. Instead of saying "lay one stage 2 evolution on the basic", it says "if you have a evolution of a pokemon out, you may lay one stage 2 or stage 1 evolution on the basic". Then rare candy adds in that "this counts as evolving the pokemon" and as everyone knows, unless you have a power like eevee's that allowed evolution on first turn, evolution is not allowed on first turn. So if it tries to count as a evolution that cannot count, then the whole card doesn't work. It's like laying 2 bounce energy on a pokemon with only one energy on it. You lay the first, bounce the only energy on it then try to lay the second one but because you cannot fulfill the rest of what the card says, you can't play it.

[Kyogre]

I see your point Prime but the "This count as evolving your Pokemon" text could only refer to the special actions taken when a Pokemon evolves apply (i.e. remove special conditions). In that case it doesn't cover the no first turn evolve rule.

The easy way to handle it for now until Nintendo gets the rulings up is to play it just as it says. That means it by-passes the first turn no evolve rule, ect.

[Prime]

I see your point Prime but the "This count as evolving your Pokemon" text could only refer to the special actions taken when a Pokemon evolves apply (i.e. remove special conditions). In that case it doesn't cover the no first turn evolve rule.

The easy way to handle it for now until Nintendo gets the rulings up is to play it just as it says. That means it by-passes the first turn no evolve rule, ect.
Why does it only refer to the special actions taken when a pokemon evolves and not the evolution in whole? It says, "this counts as evolving your pokemon". If you cannot evolve your pokemon then it doesn't work. It's like using Harvest Bounty Venusaur, which would allow you to lay a extra energy. If you couldn't lay a energy to start with then Harvest Bounty would not work. That ran under the one energy per turn rule and this runs under the evolution rule. There's not parts to the evolution rule because it's all one rule. Straight from Nintendo's site:

"EVOLVE Pokémon (as many as you want).
If you have a card in your hand that says "Evolves from so-and-so" and so-and-so is the name of a Pokémon you already have in play, you may play that card in your hand on top of the Pokémon so-and-so. This is called "evolving" a Pokémon.

Example: Jake has a card called Grovyle that says "Evolves from Treecko," and he has a Treecko card in play. He may play the Grovyle card on top of the Treecko card.

You may evolve a Basic Pokémon to a Stage 1 Pokémon, or a Stage 1 Pokémon to a Stage 2 Pokémon. When a Pokémon evolves, it keeps all cards attached to it (Energy cards, Evolution cards, etc.) and any damage it might already have, but the old attacks and Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies of the Pokémon it evolved from go away. All other things about the Pokémon go away, such as Special Conditions or anything else that might be the result of an attack some Pokémon made earlier.

Note: You can't evolve a Pokémon that you just played or evolved on that turn. Also, neither player can evolve a Pokémon on the first turn. And finally, yes, you can evolve a Pokémon on your Bench - that counts as "in play"!"

Reference to blane:

"During your turn, instead of attaching your free energy card, you may instead attack two fire energy cards to one of your pokemon with Blane in it's name. (Playing additional copies of this card this turn has no effect.)"

You see that last part. You cannot play extra blane to lay extra energy because you have already fulfilled the one energy per turn rule. So it's a trainer that allows you to lay an extra energy ONLY if you meet the rule about laying one energy per turn. Same with rare candy. Only if you meet the rule of evolution, you may take a stage 1 or stage 2 evolution card and lay it on the basic that is out.

Evolving on your first turn has been a staple in the rules. The last time a staple was broken was Bounty Harvest Venusaur and it still said "if you attach an energy to one of your pokemon as part of your turn". So it must reference to breaking a rule when it is breaking a rule. Breeder didn't reference to breaking a rule, and rare candy doesn't either.

Take it as it is, but you can't play it as it reads because we are argueing about what it says right now and you know people will argue when you play it too.

In conclusion, if you want to use a special action of a event, you have to use the whole event. You can't shoot someone with a gun unless you put your hand on the gun, draw the thingey back and fire the gun. If you don't have the gun, then you can't shoot someone. If you can't lay evolution cards, then you can't evolve.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

In conclusion, if you want to use a special action of a event, you have to use the whole event. You can't shoot someone with a gun unless you put your hand on the gun, draw the thingey back and fire the gun. If you don't have the gun, then you can't shoot someone. If you can't lay evolution cards, then you can't evolve.

Technically you could hire a hitman(but that's taking the topic in a morbid direction).

PokemonUSA needs to have somebody post on this topic with an official ruling,or this will never get settled.

I've got a prerelease in portland to attend on saturday, and this card could mess everything up(and the tournament starts at 4:00 as is, so we really don't need things slowing us down).

I honestly hope it doesn't bypass evolution rules, but as a Professor and a judge I have to give both sides a balanced look(being diplomatic is a pain).

[Mr. Grass]

I'd have to say that just based on previous rulings that you should be able to use Rare Candy first turn. There are several cards that have effects that "count as evolving": Koga's Kakuna, Eevee, Erika's Clefairy. It has been ruled that all of these effects can be used on the first turn that a pokemon is in play.
So far, the only limitation I've seen on evolution is on the normal evolution that you can do by playing a card directly from your hand. Since Rare Candy is not the normal placement of evolution, it gets around the limitation. I sort of relate this to how playing the Howl Entei with Pokemon Fan Club won't trigger the power because it is being brought into play by another card rather than coming into play normally. I know it's not exactly related, but I'm doing the best I can with what I got.
I also sort of question the usefulness of Rare Candy if it's not taken to mean you can use it first turn/first turn in play. What would be the point of using it to play a stage 1 if it didn't get around the normal evolution limits? I suppose you could use it to play a Stage 1 on a baby, but then why not just say "put a stage 2 on a basic or a stage 1 on a baby"?

[SteveP]

A side note: Rare Candy is actually more powerful than Breeder. Now you can evolve Cleffa into Clefable using Rare Candy.

But, regarding the question about evolving on the first turn or the same turn it was played, we've got to remember that WOTC often consulted TPC on rulings like this. I seem to remember WOTC consulting TPC on the evo-from-deck ruling. So, naturally, you'd think that Nintendo's ruling would be not different that WOTC's.

Anyway, I can't imagine Nintendo will ignore or discard the Compendium. I see them using it as a baseline, then make changes as needed. JMO.

ADDED:

SO, IMO, Rare Candy CAN'T be used to break the first/same-turn-no-evo rule.

[NoPoke]

It is ambiguous:both sides have decent arguments in their favour.

So trying a different approach I though what would be best for the game?

In modified it seems best that Rare Candy should not allow a first turn stage two to be played. The card would unbalance the somewhat slower tempo of modified.

However the opposite is the case in unlimited. To have any use at all in unlimited then the card should allow evolution on the first turn. Unlimited's tempo is so much faster than modified that to slow the card down would remove much of its utility.

Now given that the future of the game from a commercial point of view is almost certainly modified then I anticipate that the ruling will be that Rare Candy can't be used on turn one.

So FWIW (we haven't got the cards in the UK yet :( ) I'd rule Rare Candy based upon the tournament it was being used in. My justification would be that primarily I want cards to be played with.

Anyone have the exact text of the cards? With WotC cards text in italics was reminder text that was not intended to be part of the rulings. (Tyranitars Trample in team play for example)

[BJJ763]

What does Rare Candy do in the GB game? I really don't know as i don't play it but from what i think it does is it levels up your Pokémon you give Rare Candy to. So if you have let's say 60 Rare Candies, have a Treecko, give it all 60 Rare Candies, you now have a Treecko that is 60 Levels higher than when you started. I'm sure if you let Treecko Evolve, you have at least a Groyvle if not an actual Sceptile. All just by using Rare Candy.

Now to translate that for the TGC purposes, you have a basic and you use Rare Candy on it. The only Levels in the TGC are the Stage 1 and Stage 2 Evolution cards. So from a GB view, Rare Candy should be playable on turn 1.

Just because a card does not say something does not mean it does not allow that. In the Breeder example, there was some confusion about being able to use it first turn hence the ruling in the Compendium.

yoshi - you read too much in my comment about it being like Giovanni - Giovanni breaks the normal Evolving rule. Rare Candy breaks the normal Evolving rule. In that way they are similar. Placing a Stage 2 on top of a Basic breaks the normal Rules of Evolving.

And there are only a few first turn Stage 2 cards you have to worry about as many cannot attack with only 1 Energy. THough i do hope it is erratta'ed so that 1st turn Base Blastoise......

[Kanga Da Roo]

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

Man i remember the days of Breeder. This is card IS better than breeder for alot of reasons.

I can also see both sides of the arguements as well but the card does not inlcude this very important sentence:

*You can play this card only when you would be allowed to evolve that Pokemon anyway*

So I believe based off what the card's texts says that you should be able to Evolve on first turn.

Yes it Rare Candy does say *This counts as evolving that Pokemon* but if it didnt say that sentence, you could get away with alot of other things. The special condition thing would wouldnt work because some one will think since it doesnt count as evolving then it doesnt get rid of his special condition.

Also, if it didnt count as evolving, someone might bring up that it could still use Attacks, Poke-Powers, or Poke-bodies from the previous pokemon card.


I believe by what the text says that it should be allowed to evolve first turn.


This does speed up the game in EX-on format but i dont think itll be in every deck. Who knows, the set still isnt technically out yet. We will see what happens.

I aslo agree that nintendo does need to bring a ruling for EX.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Since we are discussing all sides of this issue, and trying to make sense of why the card is worded the way it is, let's go back to the "Stage 1 or Stage 2" wording. I originally thought that the only reason to have that wording on the card would be because the card is intended to break the normal evolution rules. Otherwise, why would it reference Stage 1, which would be playable without a trainer anyway, if you had to follow the normal rules of evolution?

While posting to the thread about the new look of Babies, I realized there might be a different explanation for the Stage 1 being included on the card. By including the words Stage 1, it now opens up the possibility to breed a baby to a Stage 1, skipping the Basic Pokemon. Pokemon Breeder could not do this because it only referenced Stage 2 evolutions. WAIT you say, it specificaly says "choose 1 of your basic Pokemon in play", not a Baby. HOWEVER, the new Babies ARE classified as a Basic. Azurill to Azumarill anyone ....

BDS

[PokePop]

.
And there are only a few first turn Stage 2 cards you have to worry about as many cannot attack with only 1 Energy. THough i do hope it is erratta'ed so that 1st turn Base Blastoise......

And first turn Clefable.

The way I read it, the card is way broken and can be used first turn/turn played.

[Kanga Da Roo]

I agree. This card is broken even in EX-on format. maybe not so much in EX-on but more so in Unlimited play.

[DARKGeNGaR094]

Azurill to Azumarill anyone ....
I don't see how that could be done: Azumarill evolves from Marill, Marill is basic, Marill does NOT normally evolve from Azurill. Azurill isn't really a legal pre-evo to Marill (or Azumarill), it only evolves because of it's Poké-BODY (or power, i'm not sure). Would that mean you can't rare candy Azurill->Azumarill if there is a Muk in play?

Anyway, back on topic...
Nintendo words things differently, so comparing to Wizards cards isn't really a good way of ruling. I suggest waiting till nintendo says something or otherwise rule it like breeder, 'cause I think it's better for the game (unlimited: Turn 1 gatr/blastoise and DVPlume are good examples of broken combo's, can't think of any modified combo's right now).

[Kanga Da Roo]

Azurill is a basic in Sandstorm so YES you can evolve it into a Azumarill using a Rare Candy. All other version of Azurill would not be included with this. Only the Sandstorm version.

[DARKGeNGaR094]

That's not what I meant. I meant that Azumarill and SS Azurill are not technically in the same evo-line, so you can't evolve it.

[meganium45]

For those reading the posts, until an official word is given, or until SteveP e-mails me telling me what to do :lol: ,

At the St. Louis/St. Charles Sandstorm Release we will be ruling that Rare Candy CAN be played on the first turn to evolve.....

Awaiting being overruled, I am used to it my now, not as bad as being overruled by a gameboy, but, you know....

Meganium45

[dkates]

Technically, on the Azumarill thing, you can't go from Azurill straight to Azumarill with Pokemon Breeder because Azumarill is not a Stage 2 card. On Rare Candy, as written, it would allow first-turn evolutions and is obscenely broken. As has been mentioned, Rare Candy allows first-turn/one-turn Baby-to-Stage 1, first-turn/one-turn Basic-to-Stage-1, and first-turn/one-turn Basic-to-Stage 2 Evolutions. Baby-to-Stage 2 is not an issue, because there is no such thing as a Stage 2 line that also has a Baby. Even so, just being able to go first-turn Basic to Stage 2 is obscenely broken, especially for Unlimited. Then again, Unlimited needs more broken cards -- we already have Sneasel and Slowking. Wait! You could Rare Candy Slowpoke to Slowking turn 1! It's official, this card's more broken than Sneasel or Slowking!

[The Fish King]

I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1. It only allows you to evolve into the Pokémon that evolves from it. Charizard doesn't evolve from Charmander. It evolves from Charmeleon.

The reason the card even says Stage 2 is because there are Stage 1 cards that you can treat as Basic Pokémon, such as: Kabuto, Lileep, Anorith, and Omanyte.

I beleive this was the real intent of the card. Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.

[PokePop]

Good point Fish King. You may be right, which would be good.

***Need Chat!**

[TrueGamerX]

I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1. It only allows you to evolve into the Pokémon that evolves from it. Charizard doesn't evolve from Charmander. It evolves from Charmeleon.

The reason the card even says Stage 2 is because there are Stage 1 cards that you can treat as Basic Pokémon, such as: Kabuto, Lileep, Anorith, and Omanyte.

I beleive this was the real intent of the card. Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.

Fish King is right. 100% IMO

[mtjimmer]

"This counts as evolving that Pokemon."

1. Removes Special Conditions.
2. Counts as; is considered; equals. No first turn evolution, cannot evolve a Pokemon that was just played.

As an aside, since it doesn't say it breaks the first turn evolution rule, it can't. Quit your dreamin'. :)

If you want to start a discussion on Baby Pokemon and Rare Candy - it's...interesting as well.

The new Pichu doesn't evolve into Pikachu normally - it's got a Poke-Power, Baby Evolution. This part is kind of difficult to wrap your head around it...but it does make sense.

You play Rare Candy on Wurmple. You have Dustox in your hand. How do you know it is the Stage 2? In your head, you think 1 of 2 ways...either up the chain, or down the chain.

Wumrple -> Cascoon -> Dustox; or,
Dustox from Cascoon from Wurmple.

The only place it defines what it evolves from his Dustox down, correct? That's how you've learned it from looking at the cards. (One of the differences of coming from *playing* the TCG or GBA.)

Getting back to the question at hand, if you go down the chain...Raichu ex from Pikachu....it stops. If you go up the chain, it starts at Pichu (if you have Pichu). How does Raichu ex know that it evolves from Pichu?

That's the logic part. The answer is: You cannot Rare Candy Pichu into Raichu ex. Raichu ex doesn't think it should evolve from Pichu - Pichu now only becomes Pikachu on a technicality (Poke-Power).

Great discussion.

MTJimmer

***
Jimmer Sivertsen
Pokemon USA, Inc.

[Kyogre]

Great, thanks mtjimmer. That will clear up a lot of issues. But let me get this strait. Can you at-least use rare candy to evolve Squirtle into Blastoise?

[Prime]

If it does allow evolution on first turn then it should be banned. I mean come on, it's TOO broken. Seriously, the game was made to not be first turn evolve. They took away the retreat rule. Now they change another BIG aspect of the game. What's next? You can lay all the energy you want down every turn? Bah

[Broken Lizard]

I too hope that The Fish King is right, but I think he may not be.

If we read the text on 'Energy Evolution' Eevee, it is pretty much the same as that on Rare Candy.

Since Energy Evolution allows Eevee to evolve on the first turn, I'd argue that Rare Candy will work on the first turn as well.

YES, WE NEED A CONDUIT FOR OFFICIAL RULINGS!!!

[Kyogre]

I think that is best to go with MTJimmer's ruling on this one. I mean he is from Pokemon USA. The way to look at it is that if it doesn't say that you can break the rules then you can't.

Thanks to the Fish King though, now I am not sure what even the true intent of this card is. Is it basically an EON Breeder?

[yoshi1001]

"yoshi - you read too much in my comment about it being like Giovanni - Giovanni breaks the normal Evolving rule. Rare Candy breaks the normal Evolving rule. In that way they are similar. Placing a Stage 2 on top of a Basic breaks the normal Rules of Evolving."

True, but more accurately, each breaks one of the rules of evolving. Thusly, one has to wonder whether it breaks all rules of evolution. This is relatively uncharted waters, since virtually all similar cases involve searching the deck for cards through the use of a power or attack, not a trainer card, and also draw from your deck, not your hand. As those of you who follow the rules situation know, even minute differences can drastically change how they are ruled.

So, anyway, analyzing the structure of the three cards I outlined earlier, it becomes apparent that there are significant similarities and differences between the cards. So, the question becomes, which card does Rare Candy most resemble? It reads a lot like a rewording of Pokemon Breeder, which cannot be used to evolve first turn, but it also resembles many evolution attacks, which do allow evolution on the first turn. So it appears we have an intent/literal interpetion conflict. We also may have a broken v. non-broken conflict-it's too early to tell.

It's very difficult to resolve an intent/literal interpetation conflict, particularly when both sides claim to be properly divining both.

I'll leave you with that.

Mewtwo: Will Steve solve the problem of the ambiguous Rare Candy? Will Misty ever get a new bike? Will Brock ever get a date? Stay tuned-same Pokegym time, same Pokegym station.

Argh...remind me never to let you watch reruns again.

Drat, MT Jimmer beat me to the solution.

Mewtwo: Good. This was approaching a 5-page paper.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Well, since there is a "Master Trainer" title under mtjimmer's screen name, we now have our answer. Since he now makes the rulings, just like MTM used to, the ruling on Rare Candy is no breaking of the rules of evolution. No first turn evolutions. No evolving on the turn played. You certainly could use it like you used to use Breeder, so a Basic could go to a Stage 2, as long as that Basic could evolve normally. It can't be used on Babies, since the Evolved Pokemon cannot see the Baby as it looks back along its evolution chain. Too bad on that one.

BDS

[Orange Soda]

Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.

The first thing I thought when I saw the card text was "Hey, this thing can override Fossil Aerodactyl!", so I agree with you on that point, except for the first turn (since mtjimmer already said no to that). However...

I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1.

I'm gunna have to disagree with you there.

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

"This counts as evolving that Pokemon."

1. Removes Special Conditions.
2. Counts as; is considered; equals. No first turn evolution, cannot evolve a Pokemon that was just played.

As an aside, since it doesn't say it breaks the first turn evolution rule, it can't. Quit your dreamin'. :)

If you want to start a discussion on Baby Pokemon and Rare Candy - it's...interesting as well.

The new Pichu doesn't evolve into Pikachu normally - it's got a Poke-Power, Baby Evolution. This part is kind of difficult to wrap your head around it...but it does make sense.

You play Rare Candy on Wurmple. You have Dustox in your hand. How do you know it is the Stage 2? In your head, you think 1 of 2 ways...either up the chain, or down the chain.

Wumrple -> Cascoon -> Dustox; or,
Dustox from Cascoon from Wurmple.

The only place it defines what it evolves from his Dustox down, correct? That's how you've learned it from looking at the cards. (One of the differences of coming from *playing* the TCG or GBA.)

Getting back to the question at hand, if you go down the chain...Raichu ex from Pikachu....it stops. If you go up the chain, it starts at Pichu (if you have Pichu). How does Raichu ex know that it evolves from Pichu?

That's the logic part. The answer is: You cannot Rare Candy Pichu into Raichu ex. Raichu ex doesn't think it should evolve from Pichu - Pichu now only becomes Pikachu on a technicality (Poke-Power).

Great discussion.

MTJimmer

***
Jimmer Sivertsen
Pokemon USA, Inc.
Thanks for the Ruling

[Mr. Grass]

This ruling brings up a couple questions for me:
1. Are all the older cards that have the "counts as evolving" text also not able to break the first turn/inplay rule? So would I have to wait a turn before I could Chain Reaction/Energy Evolve/Emerge?
2. If stage 1's can't go onto babies with Rare Candy, and Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn/in play evolving rule, why does it mention Stage 1's?

[Orange Soda]

2. If stage 1's can't go onto babies with Rare Candy, and Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn/in play evolving rule, why does it mention Stage 1's?

I think it's to get around things like Fossil Aerodactyl. He never specifically said yes to it, but it's the only reason I can think of that Jimmer didn't specifically say no to.

[Gym Leader Blaine]

I think you should be able to use the card to be able to do a first turn evolve for the reason that that it is a trainer card, which from the way that I read it doesn't say you cant do it. I look at it like the evee card that lets you evolve to another form of evee when a energy is attach. Just my two cents. And if you can I can think of some pretty fun decks to make it with. :D One thing you have to remember is you will need this card and the evolution card at the start of the game for the combo that eveyone is wondering if it can be done or not.

[dkates]

Going back to Mr. Grass's last comment, I remember that previous rulings have allowed Chain Reacion, Energy Evolution, and Emerge to break the one-turn evolution rule. If I've read the Compendium correctly, any card that causes evolution to work differently allows that rule to be broken unless it says otherwise.

[Kanga Da Roo]

Ok so if you guys dont believe that this gets around the first turn evo rule then what good is the card??

Give examples on how this card is used??

I can see the point with the baby to Stage 1 BUT i still think that it still can evolve Charmander to Charmeleon first turn.

I dont believe itll can pull a breeder but atleast to a Stage 1 Evo first turn.


WE NEED A SCAN OF THE FREAKING CARD!!!! :)

[dkates]

IMO, as written, it does get around the first turn evo rule, although I think that makes it exceptionally broken. I have explained my reasons in other posts on this thread. What should be true and what is true are often not one and the same.

[Prime]

MTJimmer said the ruling himself and I agree 100%. The card never said that it broke the rule so it doens't break the rule. Cards like HB Venusaur and Blane did say that they broke the rule so they did. Also Eevee was a wizards card. There is no reason for Nintendo to have to go back to re-rule each card that WotC ruled.

[Mr. Grass]

The old cards may have been produced under Wizards but originally they came from TPC. And "It's an old card" is a sad excuse to ignore old rulings. A lot of the new rulings we have are based on older rulings. If the new cards are truly going to be compatible with old cards we need rulings that apply to all of the cards. Previous rulings with cards like Eevee and Koga's Kakuna have set the precedent that "counts as evolving" only means the cards trigger effects that occur when evolving (Chain Reaction) and are not limited by the first turn/in play restriction. This new ruling changes the meaning of "counts as evolving", so we should examine the older cards and see if we can determine a difference between them and Rare Candy. Otherwise we currently have conflicting definitons of what "counts as evolving"

[yoshi1001]

You guys are forgetting:

There is no total logic,
It's just a simple game,
but everybody's out there for the glory and fame.

[DaytonGymLeader]

Rare Candy:

Choose 1 of your basic Pokemon in play. If you have a stage 1 or stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in you hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon)

I would agree with BDS first ruling that you would follow the normal rules of evolution, since the card states This counts as evolving that Pokemon

The reason for the the stage 1 or stage 2 wording is to allow you to evolve Raichu or Raichu EX from a Pichu, and in the future other "Baby" Pokemon into the stage 1 evolution line. Baby Pokemon are no longer Baby Pokemon they are now Basic Pokemon and in the case of Pichu and Raichu you could use Rare Candy to evolve and skip the Pikachu stage.

That is my 2 cents anyway :)
I agree and don't. Look at the "baby" cards in this set. They don't have the text that shows what they evolve in to. Hopefully this is a templating problem that will be fixed very shortly. Technically, the babies can't evolve unless the text is present, unless there's a blurb in the Sandstorm Rule Book that says so. I don't think we can just take the WotC cards as precedent

I also tend to agree that this card mimics Breeder and essentially replaces Breeder in these sets. I agree that this card does not allow evolution on Turn 1 because of the text that says this counts as Evolving.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Look at the "baby" cards in this set. They don't have the text that shows what they evolve in to. Hopefully this is a templating problem that will be fixed very shortly. Technically, the babies can't evolve unless the text is present, unless there's a blurb in the Sandstorm Rule Book that says so. I don't think we can just take the WotC cards as precedent

First off, the "Baby" cards in this set are actually Basic Pokemon. That change is by design I think. They don't have text that says what they evolve into because they have a Power that allows them to evolve, and specifies what they evolve into. The times they are a changin'. :D

BDS

[Kyogre]

Could the "Stage 1" part of the text be actually useless? Either that or there will be a card that will come out that will disable players to evolve normally, thus making the stage 1 part of the effect able to bypass this evil card.

Anyone else have an idea why it refers to the Stage 1 Pokemon?

[Kanga Da Roo]

What bout evolving the same pokemon twice a turn that has already been out? Anyone think of that??

And again can anyone explain what the card can be used for?

[DaytonGymLeader]

What bout evolving the same pokemon twice a turn that has already been out? Anyone think of that??

And again can anyone explain what the card can be used for?
The text "counts as evolving" barrs that from happening.

Think of this card as a Pokemon Breeder. It does the same thing with less text.

[Orange Soda]

Jimmer's official ruling said you can't evolve a Pokemon that was just put in play, so I presume that include Evolution cards played this turn.

Edit: Darn, Dayton beat me.

[Kanga Da Roo]

so once again, What can we use this card for if we cant use it for any of other reason.

I still think it allows first turn evo but apprantly no one else thinks this.

Also it doesnt have the text that Pokemon Breeder does that says that u CAN'T use it first turn.

But Rare Candy doesnt say to skip a stage, it says evolve. Rare Candy doesnt state that you can't evolve first turn.


eDIT: There is finally a scan for the card. If that doesnt explain first turn evo then i dunno what does.

Actual Card Text: Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evloves form that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon (This count as evolving that Pokemon.)

[PokePop]

I hate to say it, but I disagree with MTJimmer regarding the phrase "this counts as evolving".

That phrase has always just referred to the removal of effects and conditions. It should not restrict this card to only evolving when evolving could normally be done.

As pointed out, what would be the point of Stage 1 being a choice?

[Dayton_Pokémom]

Possibly for "babies" as we've historically known them coming back in later releases?

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

This ruling brings up a couple questions for me:
1. Are all the older cards that have the "counts as evolving" text also not able to break the first turn/inplay rule? So would I have to wait a turn before I could Chain Reaction/Energy Evolve/Emerge?
2. If stage 1's can't go onto babies with Rare Candy, and Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn/in play evolving rule, why does it mention Stage 1's?
Question #1:

Wizards Pokemon Chat Log for 6/19/03
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #2074 from m_p_douglas:
just as a reminder Nothing nothing stops Pokemon Powers or Attacks from evolving Pokemon. Not rules, not already having evolved that turn. Not being the first turn. Not being the first turn on the table, Not a Pokemon Power like the "can't evolve fossil group"...
master_trainer_mike says, "Correct, UNLESS using the attack itslef is prevented (such as facing a baby Pokemon and missing the flip) for example"
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #2075 from i_luv_my_oddish:
All right, thanks for all of the rulings answers. I'll be keeping my eye on the Compendium. Speaking of which, do you know what's going to happen with the Compendium after Wizards loses control?
master_trainer_mike says, "We do not control the Compendium. That is a fan run web site."
master_trainer_mike says, "They are in charge of their own destiny."
master_trainer_mike says, "We wish them best of luck :)"

...............................

Question #2

From MT Jimmer:

"The new Pichu doesn't evolve into Pikachu normally - it's got a Poke-Power, Baby Evolution. This part is kind of difficult to wrap your head around it...but it does make sense......That's the logic part. The answer is: You cannot Rare Candy Pichu into Raichu ex. Raichu ex doesn't think it should evolve from Pichu - Pichu now only becomes Pikachu on a technicality (Poke-Power)."

MT Jimmer was definately talking about the "new Babies" in Sandstorm,
but the question of whether Neo Cleffa can use "Rare Candy to
become Jungle Clefable is not definately 100% yes or no in his answer.
Perhaps, we should give him a day or two to call Japan and ask them...

[Kanga Da Roo]

i personally think that the card gives u the choice of either evolving to the Stage 1 or the Stage 2 on first turn or first turn in play.

The text (this counts as Evolving the that Pokemon) only stands for the removal of special conditions. Not the restriction of evolution.

Edit: I also think everyone should look at Wally's Training. It has the same problem that Rare Candy does.

[TrEkIeV]

Well, since there is a "Master Trainer" title under mtjimmer's screen name, we now have our answer. Since he now makes the rulings, just like MTM used to, the ruling on Rare Candy is no breaking of the rules of evolution. No first turn evolutions. No evolving on the turn played. You certainly could use it like you used to use Breeder, so a Basic could go to a Stage 2, as long as that Basic could evolve normally. It can't be used on Babies, since the Evolved Pokemon cannot see the Baby as it looks back along its evolution chain. Too bad on that one.

BDS

flame me if you want, but i think mtjimmer is wrong. where does mtjimmer get his rulings from anyways? does he just make them up himself? do the rulings come from the 'research & development' department, if one actually exists at the nintendo office...? do they come from japan? where?

it doesn't matter to me if he has a fancy "Master Trainer" title under his name, a bad ruling is a bad ruling. i believe more 'research & development' needs to be done about this card.

[Timmy Two Tone]

flame me if you want, but i think mtjimmer is wrong. where does mtjimmer get his rulings from anyways? does he just make them up himself? do the rulings come from the 'research & development' department, if one actually exists at the nintendo office...? do they come from japan? where?

it doesn't matter to me if he has a fancy "Master Trainer" title under his name, a bad ruling is a bad ruling. i believe more 'research & development' needs to be done about this card.


Well, there have been several rulings in the past that MTM made and later changed, perhaps MTJ will change his mind, but he is the final authority and without rules we would have chaos...

I really liked the idea of evolving babies to the stage 1 evolution, however, it makes sense that if you start at Raichu and work backwords de-evolving into Pikachu you can't go back any further because there is no evolves from info on the Pikachu card.

I'm glad that it has been ruled that Rare Candy disallows first turn evolutions. It would be a pretty broken card if it did.

So until MTJ changes his ruling that is the ruling.

[Kanga Da Roo]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. The card's text states it plain as day on how the card is used. The *This counts as evolving* doesnt stop it from happening turn1. Alot of other cards say the same thing. i.e Chain Reaction Eevee. This card would not work the same if the (counts as evolving ) bit would mean differently because of this card.

There is an actual scan of the card. I advise every to look at it.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

flame me if you want, but i think mtjimmer is wrong. where does mtjimmer get his rulings from anyways? does he just make them up himself? do the rulings come from the 'research & development' department, if one actually exists at the nintendo office...? do they come from japan? where?

it doesn't matter to me if he has a fancy "Master Trainer" title under his name, a bad ruling is a bad ruling. i believe more 'research & development' needs to be done about this card.

No flaming required. My point is that MTJ now has the same status in the game that MTM has. He is the Organized Play Manager for Pokemon USA Inc. As such, he is the ruling authority when issues like this arise. As we transition to the new OP structure, people need to become familiar with the new people in charge. That's all I was pointing out.

As to where he gets his rulings, well, you'll have to ask him. Can he be wrong? Sure he can. It was pointed out that MTM has, on occasion, reversed a ruling. In fact, TC was often leading the opposition to ruling decisions that didn't make sense. HOWEVER, until the person given the responsibility for making the rulings (now MT Jimmer) reverses the decision, the ruling stands. Discussion certainly can continue, but Judges should rule in accordance with the ruling until it is Officially changed.

BDS

[Kanga Da Roo]

If that is the case then what is the purpose of the card? Same with Wally's Training.

I just really wanna understand the use of the card if its not a first turn evo 1. I personally dont want 1st turn evo myself i just see that by the text of the card it sure makes it sound like first turn evo.

If jimmer is our new "MTM" than can he explain the cards use?

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

If that is the case then what is the purpose of the card? Same with Wally's Training.

I just really wanna understand the use of the card if its not a first turn evo 1. I personally dont want 1st turn evo myself i just see that by the text of the card it sure makes it sound like first turn evo.

If jimmer is our new "MTM" than can he explain the cards use?

I think you got so tied up in the 1st turn evolution aspect that you are having trouble seeing the card for what it is. Rare Candy essentially is a new version of Pokemon Breeder. You use it to go from a Basic to Stage 2 directly. It's a speed card, allowing you to get a Stage 2 out on the turn after you play the Basic. It's not for every deck, but judging from the number of Pokemon Breeders that were put in decks, this card will see lots of play, even if the current ruling stands.

Wally's Training is similar, but adds a search function. It allows you to find the evolution in your deck and place it on your Active Pokemon. The way it is worded, I'd say it also allows you to skip a Stage 1, just like a Breeder. Whether these cards allow you to break the rules of evolution or not, they are very useful!

BDS

[Kanga Da Roo]

I think you got so tied up in the 1st turn evolution aspect that you are having trouble seeing the card for what it is. Rare Candy essentially is a new version of Pokemon Breeder. You use it to go from a Basic to Stage 2 directly. It's a speed card, allowing you to get a Stage 2 out on the turn after you play the Basic. It's not for every deck, but judging from the number of Pokemon Breeders that were put in decks, this card will see lots of play, even if the current ruling stands.

Wally's Training is similar, but adds a search function. It allows you to find the evolution in your deck and place it on your Active Pokemon. The way it is worded, I'd say it also allows you to skip a Stage 1, just like a Breeder. Whether these cards allow you to break the rules of evolution or not, they are very useful!

BDS

Yeah i saw that its pretty much a new breeder but what about the Stage 1 part of Rare Candy? This is the only part of this card that still confuses me.

[Porygon3]

....
and now
....
I have broken trainers...
....
yay.

[Kanga Da Roo]

I mainly wanna get this lil deal solved so when my friends and everyone else gets the set, i can have an answer to thier confusion.

[babayaga]

It was pointed out that MTM has, on occasion, reversed a ruling. In fact, TC was often leading the opposition to ruling decisions that didn't make sense. HOWEVER, until the person given the responsibility for making the rulings (now MT Jimmer) reverses the decision, the ruling stands. Discussion certainly can continue, but Judges should rule in accordance with the ruling until it is Officially changed.

BDS

Ugh! Of course, back in "the day" it would come up in the next week's chat session; most ruling corrections were made the next week (IIRC from editing the Comp). We're in limbo right now because it will be a while before that sort of feedback system is set up. What is good is that there are some people who are in contact with MTJ about this, unfortunately MTJ appears to be without the full benefit of access to the varied opinions of the community. Unless, of course, he lurks here... ;)

I wonder how this will affect interplayability of the WotC cards with the Nintendo ones, since cards seem to have been printed with different ideas of playing mechanics in mind. I guess we can't go wrong with the first rule of Pokemon playing:

1. Read the card!

Now I'm wondering if there will have to be a separate rules fork for Nintendo...

[Kanga Da Roo]

So on that thought, how should it be played??

[Prime]

The old cards may have been produced under Wizards but originally they came from TPC. And "It's an old card" is a sad excuse to ignore old rulings. A lot of the new rulings we have are based on older rulings. If the new cards are truly going to be compatible with old cards we need rulings that apply to all of the cards. Previous rulings with cards like Eevee and Koga's Kakuna have set the precedent that "counts as evolving" only means the cards trigger effects that occur when evolving (Chain Reaction) and are not limited by the first turn/in play restriction. This new ruling changes the meaning of "counts as evolving", so we should examine the older cards and see if we can determine a difference between them and Rare Candy. Otherwise we currently have conflicting definitons of what "counts as evolving"
The truth is that the old cards AREN'T compatible with the new cards. All of the old cards had "pokemon powers" and there isn't a new card alive that shuts them off. They all shut off poke-powers and poke-bodies. You add int eh fact that in modified, we weren't playing any of the old cards at all really, other that the few that was being brought back into modified by the help of LC, then we haven't been playing the old cards since....before Neo Genesis. Nintendo doesn't want to go back and issue changes for every ruling because it would be too much work. So when the new modified comes out, it won't have LC. Now my guess is as bad as yours but I think we all meet an agreement. It will either be Exp-On or EX-on. There not going to let us keep Neo Genesis and surely not give us all the cards back. So in the end, it doesn't matter if the cards are compatible with the old cards because we won't be playing them. Now for unlimited, I dunno.

What is this with everyone saying that "counts as evolving" made it so that it could evolve whenever? When you lay a evolution card from your hand down onto a pokemon, that "counts as evolving" and it does all the special things but you still can't lay the evolution down first turn. Not only does it say that it MUST count as evolving. So if you can't evolve, and it tries to cout as evolving, then it doesn't work. How hard is that to accept.

You claim you hit someone with a bat. But there is no bat anywhere, and there is no bump on the person's head. It didn't happen then. You must fullfill everything about a action to do it. For evolution to occur, even with a trainer, you must still fullfill every part of it. And guess what, the last part says that you cannot evolve a pokemon you just layed down or on the first turn. If it didn't say that then it proberly could do that but then also I could get a stage 2 on all my pokemon out first turn.

If Rare Candy would allow eolvution first turn, it would be too broken for the metagame. People would run 4 in every deck. Not adding in that it isn't a supporter, which is not common to see a broken card not as a supporter. Then add in that it breaks one of the biggest rules in the game.

MtJimmer said it, I don't see a reason to fight it. Your just wasting your time.

[BJJ763]

"how should it be played??"

The way it has been ruled. (THanks for the ruling MTJ! though i don't really agree with it) Cannot be played first turn. Cannot be played on R&S Babies.

Still need to know about the "(This counts as evolving that Pokémon)." now means "follows the normal Evolution rules" in regards to the "(This counts as evolving that Pokémon)" that means "Just a reminder that Special Conditions are removed and anything triggering an event when a Pokémon Evolves still happens."

and

Can Rare Candy be used on non-R&S Babies? (otherwise the "Stage 1" wording really leaves a can of worms)

"The truth is that the old cards AREN'T compatible with the new cards."

Funny, it has already been stated that the R&S ARE compatible with cards already released.

"You add int eh fact that in modified, we weren't playing any of the old cards at all really, other that the few that was being brought back into modified by the help of LC, then we haven't been playing the old cards since....before Neo Genesis."

Neo block and E card block are all "old" cards compared to R&S. Still have Pokémon Power in Neo. Neo & E have Babies with the Baby rule.

"Nintendo doesn't want to go back and issue changes for every ruling because it would be too much work. So when the new modified comes out, it won't have LC. Now my guess is as bad as yours but I think we all meet an agreement. It will either be Exp-On or EX-on. There not going to let us keep Neo Genesis and surely not give us all the cards back. So in the end, it doesn't matter if the cards are compatible with the old cards because we won't be playing them."

And when the announce MF is current MF with a list of cards banned.....just don't let anyone else know. ;)

"Now for unlimited, I dunno. "

Well there you have the big issue. People will be playing R&S in Unlimited. Must know how the cards work this older cards.

"What is this with everyone saying that "counts as evolving" made it so that it could evolve whenever? When you lay a evolution card from your hand down onto a pokemon, that "counts as evolving" and it does all the special things but you still can't lay the evolution down first turn. Not only does it say that it MUST count as evolving."

Discovery Eevee, promo Eevee and Koga's Kakuna all have "counts as evolving" in their Powers that allows them to Evolve the turn they are played. Even first turn (Gymbo's fantasy first turn was to have 1 Energy Evolution Eevee and 3 Chain Reaction Eevees out first turn, attach an energy to Energy Eevee, get heads, and have 4 first turn Evolutions out). See first turn evolving exists and the "counts as evolving" was just a reminder that other things happened (like Special Conditions going away from the Evolved Pokémon). So since we have had a ruling that "counts as evolving" is a reminder, we are used to it being just a reminder. Now it means "obeys the rules of Evolution" and need clarification on the already ruled cards. It's called consistency (which doesn't really exist for Pokémon but we'd really like some anyways).

Rare Candy in the GB game levels up your Pokémon so even if you just go it, if you have enough Rare Candy, you could raise your Pokémon to its Stage 2 evolution without ever once battling. So if you were going to make a card that mimicked Rare Candy in the GB, it should break the normal Evolving rules.

[Kanga Da Roo]

Thank you! Someone who finally sumed up all I was saying.

I really think that the Compedium needs to get together on the subject and dicuss this one out. The reason I say this is because alot of people look to you guys as the guys to ask about a ruling in the card game.

I agree with BJJ763. How does "Counts as Evolving" mean one thing in the past before this card and now it means totally something different. If it means what it is to be stated it mean now then it would change alot of cards of the past. (i.e Chain Reaction Eevee and so on.)

[dkates]

I agree with BJJ and Kanga -- if it counts as evolving, it just has the same effects as any other evolution, but not the same limits unless that is specifically stated. The only difference here is that the evolution is played from the hand rather than pulled from the deck, as has been the case wherever "this counts as evolving" has appeared before. All that difference means is that any game effect that specifically prohibits or affects the playing of Evolution cards from the hand, like Fossil Aerodactyl, also affects the use of this Trainer. The game may not always be logical, but we do have a system of precedents which should be used unless there is specific reason not to.

[RainbowRichards]

"This counts as evolving that Pokemon."

1. Removes Special Conditions.
2. Counts as; is considered; equals. No first turn evolution, cannot evolve a Pokemon that was just played.

As an aside, since it doesn't say it breaks the first turn evolution rule, it can't. Quit your dreamin'. :)

<snip>

Great discussion.

MTJimmer

***
Jimmer Sivertsen
Pokemon USA, Inc.

1. Agreed.

2. Disagree - too many precedents have shown that the card doesn't have to explicitly say it breaks the first turn/same turn played evolution rule to do so.

[PojosamaWannabe]

Maybe the card was made to get around pokemon powers that do not allow evolving... Just a thought.

[GOROY]

Sorry if I missed this or not but there are so many pages on this thread...
Anyway, can Wally's Training get through the first turn evolution rule, as rare candy now can't?

[Prime]

Well Pojosama brung up a very good point. People were wondering why it said "lay a stage 1" well it could and would get past a pokemon power. Now remember another person, can't remember there name, said back there that this is nintendo. Nintendo didn't write all those cards back then and nintendo didn't rule all those cards back then and now they are ruling these. They have changed the rules before and I guess they are changing them now. All the cards in the past that did it, don't I guess.

It's a brand new game folks, you should have known that from the start!

[yoshi1001]

What we have here is a case of intent versus literal interpetation. Rare Candy was never intended to break the evolution rule of first turn no evolutions. Thus, it does not. It does not say that it does, so the intent takes over. Also, keep in mind that not all WoTC rules were clarified by Japan.

[Mr. Grass]

How do you know Rare Candy wasn't intended to break the first turn evolution rule? We don't have any offical rulings from Japan. And thus far every other card that has "counted as evolving" has gotten around the restrictions unless they specifically said they didn't. And the question still stands, if Rare Candy doesn't get through evolution limiting then why have Stage 1's on the card?

[yoshi1001]

It wouldn't be the first time a card didn't quite make sense. As for what the intent of the card is, I believe that is revealed by MTJimmer's ruling. He has a more astute viewpoint that none of us share. If the intent of the card really is to allow first turn evolution, then I guess Japan will have to overrule Jimmer at some point.

[Prime]

How do you know Rare Candy wasn't intended to break the first turn evolution rule? We don't have any offical rulings from Japan. And thus far every other card that has "counted as evolving" has gotten around the restrictions unless they specifically said they didn't. And the question still stands, if Rare Candy doesn't get through evolution limiting then why have Stage 1's on the card?
It doesn't matter if it was or not. MTJimmer ruled that it doesn't. Maybe it was intended to, but until a higher up changes the rule, the rule sticks. The answer to your question is because sometimes you cannot evolve that isn't against the rules. Like with the omastar/kabutops from skyridge that says that you cannot lay a evolution card down while they are active. Well this card gets around and lets you do that. Also with the babies like cleffa or pichu, not from sandstorm but from other sets, now they can evolve into clefable and raichu. Does that answer your question?

[yoshi1001]

"Like with the omastar/kabutops from skyridge that says that you cannot lay a evolution card down while they are active. Well this card gets around and lets you do that. Also with the babies like cleffa or pichu, not from sandstorm but from other sets, now they can evolve into clefable and raichu. Does that answer your question?"

As I recall, those haven't been varified.

[Prime]

I better watch what I said. Thanks for correcting me yoshi, I was thinking up a answer for his question. Really, before they go back through every question we have, we can't see what does what with what. It's like if they just started the WotC chat when Skyridge came out. Alot of catching up.

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

Espeon walks in the room and notices the big debate.
Espeon having a great deal of Eeveelution experience
sits down and reads all the post...

Furret walks in...
Furret "What's up??"
Espeon "It's the great candy debate..."
Furret "Hmm..."

Espeon "I think I see part of the problem here."
Furret ???
Espeon "A player (who is called the Trainer of the Pokemon) has certain restrictions
placed upon them -- the three no no Evolution rules:
No evolution on turn one
No evolution the first turn a Pokemon comes into play
and No evolution on a Pokemon that has already been Evolved."
Furret nods solemnly

Espeon "However, a Pokemon does not have any restrictions placed on it
about Evolution. That is why Pokemon Powers and Attacks have never
been subject to these rules."
Furret nods solemnly
Espeon "This has always been this way, the rules restrict a Trainers actions,
but not the Pokemon's actions."
Furret "So can the new Sandstorm Wynaut be played unto the table
and the have Wobbuffet put on top of it immediately?"
Espeon "Yes, because it was Wynaut using its own Pokemon Power
and not the Trainer that caused Wynaut to Evolve."
Furret "So whether the text on an Eevee Pokemon Power is similar to
a trainer card is not really important -- it is who is doing the actual
evolving that matters!"
Espeon nods solemnly.

Furret rushes off.
Vaporeon comes in a shakes water all over Espeon.
Vaporeon "What's up??"
Espeon "It's the great candy debate..."
Vaporeon "I see, a Trainer Card must definitely say it can break the
rules of Evolution, because the Trainer is playing it, while we Pokemon
can do whatever we please, any Eeveelution knows that..."

Furret comes back with a huge sack of Lava Cookies and
begins handing them out...

A group of Cleffas and Igglybuffs come marching by carrying Balloons
and waving a Banner that reads "We love the Baby Breeder!"
They each take a Lava Cookie and continue their Parade.
Furret "A bit early to celebrate isn't it?"
Vaporeon "When the smoke clears and the dust settles, Rare Candy will
probably be a Breeder for both Basics and True Babies...MT Jimmer just gave us
a ruling on Sandstorm Pichu who isn't a Baby at all, and does not normally
evolve into any Pokemon."

[vincent0906]

According to japanese ruling.....
This card can be played even in first turn or the turn Basic Pokemon that just put in play.

[RainbowRichards]

According to japanese ruling.....
This card can be played even in first turn or the turn Basic Pokemon that just put in play.

Is this ruling published anywhere?!?!?

[Kanga Da Roo]

I personally hope thid card doesnt allow first urn evo. It would be too broken and it would be in every deck. I'm the pokemon power thing still works though.

[dkates]

I believe I said that, too, Kanga. Actually, I think what I said was that it could rebalance Unlimited, which is currently badly unbalanced IMO, but that it would totally ruin Modified. In Unlimited, Evolutions are mostly locked out because there are so many good BBPs, so Rare Candy might give them the speed they need, but Modified doesn't have these Pokemon, so the lean toward Evolutions would become an extremely unbalanced advantage for Evolution Pokemon. The difference is what other cards are in the card pool.

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

dkates is right, Rare Candy would give too much to modified. BBP's are still not commonly played w/out evos but we have seen an upturn with the old Chan, Buzz, Rocket's Chan, Rocket's Mewtwo & then all the basic ex in RS. It would make perfect sense to give modified another breeder. Nothing more.

[dkates]

Of course, since whatever ruling we use has to apply to all uses of the card, we're basically left with 3 options. First, allow it to break the first-turn evolution rule, which is fine for Unlimited but trouble for Modified. Second, follow option 1 but also ban it, independently of its set, from Modified, just like what happened with Sneasel and Slowking. Third, don't allow it to break Evolution rules, which makes the card much less useful to either format, since it basically is just Pokemon Breeder with two differences. One, you can go to the Stage 1. Two, you can ignore game effects (i.e. Kabutops, Aerodactyl) that would normally disallow evolution. I would lean toward option 2, if it were my decision -- which it obviously isn't and never will be.

[Prime]

Well when they take out LC for modified, this is the card that will replace pokemon breeder.

[Porygon3]

What does Nintendo say about all this, perhaps they nead a board...

[NoPoke]

So lets see. What can we actually do with this card.....

1) I play a basic and try to use Rare Candy to play its stage one this turn.

2) I play a basic. Next turn I try to use rare candy to play the Stage 2.

3) I play a Baby. Next turn I try to use Rare Candy to evolve the baby into a basic.

4) I play a Baby. Next turn I try to use Rare Candy to evolve into a Stage 1.

5) I play a Baby. Next turn I try to use Rare Candy to evolve into a Stage 2.

6) I play a basic. Next turn I use Rare Candy to play the Stage 1.

Looks like its ..

1) NO
2) NO (stage 2's dont evolve from basics!)
3) NO
4) NO
5) NO
6) YES

anyone think of another example where the answer is YES?

Its very rare that you aren't allowed to evolve a card that you played last turn. Looks like its another Lt Surge's Secret Plan to me! Pity, a replacement for Breeder would be nice.

[NoPoke]

Now if the answer to 2) is YES. Then we have a new definition of evolves from


Or rather I have a new definition of evolves from: up till now I hadn't considered Charizard to evolve from Charmander! If the answer is YES then Charizard does indeed evolve from Charmander. :confused: :eek:

Wonders if there is any way of abusing this new 'evolves from ' :D

[Android17a]

Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon.

Hello? It says choose a BASIC POKEMON. Choose the Stage 1 or Stage 2 card and put it on the BASIC Pokemon. Implication: you can evolve it like you would with a Pokemon breeder.

If this is not the case, the only other use for this card, as far as I can see, is to evolve on the first turn or the turn you place a Pokemon into play. If neither of these are the case, then this card would be rendered pointless - why would you have a card that lets you evolve a Pokemon if you have the card in your hand, when you can just do it without the Rare Candy card anyway?

[NoPoke]

Android17a

Rare Candy doesn't have the same kind of text that Pokemon Breeder used. Specifically Rare Candy includes the requirement that the chosen card must evolve from the basic.

check back for the earlier post from MTJimmer on page 2. Some of the prior discussion has been on if a stage2 evolves from a basic.

Note that sometimes a stage 1 pokemon is considered to be a 'basic' pokemon: eg aerodactyl. Also, a basic that evolved from a baby is not considered to be a basic pokemon any longer.

The point being that if the card does not break any of the normal evolution rules then it appears to be worthless. Well almost: there is a pokemon power that prevents evolutions rare candy would at least get around that ,I hope!

[dkates]

True. If all it does is ignore game effects, it's too situational to use. If (and I don't know whether this is the case) this card uses "evolves from" at any point, then, like I said in the post about Wally's Training, you can technically only go up one level. This is because, technically, no Stage 2 "evolves from" a Basic -- rather, it evolves from a Stage 1 which, in turn, evolves from a Basic. That being the case, the intent would have to have been to break the one-turn evolution rule, but not to create a new Breeder.

[Kyogre]

Android17a

Rare Candy doesn't have the same kind of text that Pokemon Breeder used. Specifically Rare Candy includes the requirement that the chosen card must evolve from the basic.

check back for the earlier post from MTJimmer on page 2. Some of the prior discussion has been on if a stage2 evolves from a basic.

Note that sometimes a stage 1 pokemon is considered to be a 'basic' pokemon: eg aerodactyl. Also, a basic that evolved from a baby is not considered to be a basic pokemon any longer.

The point being that if the card does not break any of the normal evolution rules then it appears to be worthless. Well almost: there is a pokemon power that prevents evolutions rare candy would at least get around that ,I hope!

All Pokemon evolves from their basic counterparts. Rare candy states that it can be stage 1 or stage 2 that you can put it on the basic that it evolved from. If you want to look at it another way, Pokemon breeder is the card missing information, the stage 1 part. Also the new cards such as Aerodactyl and the other "fossil" cards don't count as Basic Pokemon, they are now only stage 1. Which means you can use Rare Candy on a Claw Fossil and get (On the next turn) Anorith or Armaldo. I really don't know how you can say that it doesn't work as a breeder, it actually says if you have a stage 2 that evolves from a Basic then you can put the stage 2 on the basic. Just look at it this way, its the new MF's Breeder, nothing else.

[Prime]

Well we would have to get the rule on "evolves from" because to me, charizard does evolve from charmander. Same as we evolved from little organisms. It wasn't one big step, but in the long run, that is what happened.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

You guys are analyzing this to death, and coming up with some incorrect assumptions. We do have a current ruling on this, which basically states that you can use Rare Candy just like we used to use Breeder. That means, no matter what you say about the meaning of "evolves from", you can play a Stage 2 on a Basic, as long as the Stage 2 in in the evolution line of that Basic Pokemon.

The ruling on using Rare Candy on "Babies", was based on the new 'Babies', which are not classified as Babies at all. They are now Basic Pokemon with a Poke-POWER that allows them to evolve into a Basic Pokemon. The logic behind the ruling centers around the fact that it is a Poke-POWER that enables the evolution to take place. That means that the new Babies are not in the normal evolution chain of the card they evolve into, hence the Rare Candy cannot be used.

There was also a ruling on use of Rare Candy to evolve first turn or the turn a Pokemon was played. The current ruling is NO. There are some good arguments presented here for overturning that ruling, but until that happens, the answer is NO.

We also need clarification on whether the Rare Candy works on older Babies, which do state what they evolve into, but since those Pokemon say they are Baby Pokemon, the line about "Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play" might be problematic.

I just wanted to review what we know, so we don't forget the current rulings in light of all the discussion (really good discussion BTW).

BDS

[PokePop]

But note that all Baby Pokemon have the text on them to "treat this card as a Basic Pokemon" and so would meet the requirement of being "Basic"

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Good point Pop. It will be interesting to see where this one lands.

BDS

[NoPoke]

BDS where is the ruling that says that Rare Candy works like breeder?

I've checked MTJimmers reply carefully and its not stated therein. If anything the emphasis is on that the card does not break normal rules of evolution. A normal rule is that you can't miss out a stage in the evolution process.

Pop: Though (WotC) babies count as basics while in play, so you could choose a baby for the purposes of Rare Candy. MTJimmers reply specifically stated that Rare candy DOES NOT work on babies. There aren't any basics that, while in your hand, know that they evolve from a baby. So the chain is broken and you CANT pokemon breeder stage 1's or stage 2's ontop of babies.

Looking at the scan of Pichu on Zeo it seems that Pichu is no longer a baby in the sense that we understood with Wotc. The card template is identical to a normal basic with the addition of a pokemon power to allow it to evolve. The baby rule flip may still exist but sandstorm Pichu doesn't have its protection. Pichu IS now a basic just like all the other basics.

No more Babies: Long live the Basics. *sob*

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

BDS where is the ruling that says that Rare Candy works like breeder?

Oops, my bad. There is no ruling, but the card itself says it pretty clearly:

Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon.

How can you not interpret that to mean that you can put a Stage 2 on the Basic? He was stressing that the card does not break the normal rules of evolution to refute the 1st turn argument I think. I guess it's time for TC to go to work again. ;)

BDS

[RainbowRichards]

How can you not interpret that to mean that you can put a Stage 2 on the Basic?

BDS

It's a fuzzy logic thing that, since the wording is "that evolves from that Pokemon", and a Stage 2 doesn't evolve from a Basic... (I understand that it means "like Breeder", but there are some very literal interpretations going on)

[dkates]

How can you not interpret that to mean that you can put a Stage 2 on the Basic?Like I said before, technically, no Stage 2 "evolves from" a Basic. Pokemon Breeder didn't use "evolves from" in its text -- it checked for a "matching Stage 2." Slightly different concept. Still, that's getting pretty technical. One could easily also interpret it to mean a Stage 2 that matches a Basic.

[NoPoke]

BDS because the card states 'evolves from' and up until now Charizard evolves from charmeleon NOT charmander.

In earlier posts it was established that there are stage 1s that count as basics while in play. Now I DO hope that rare candy does work like breeder, even with the completely different text. It just kind of begs the quesiton as to why we wern't allowed to use all our old breeders if the card works the same way. I do hope that some of our old cards get reprinted so that they aren't all just left gathering dust in the new modified world.

[Kyogre]

Charizard is the Evolved form of Charmander. Not directly but it does. Go back to MTJimmer's Chain reasoning, Charmander-> Charmeleon -> Charizard and goes backward from Charizard -> Charmeleon-> Charmander. Which means that Charizard does "Evolve From" Charmander.

On Pokemon Breeder it says "Put that card on the Matching Basic Pokemon" therefore the Matching Pokemon must be the Pre-Evolved form of the card you are putting on it. Therefore the "Matching Pokemon" must be the Pokemon that "Evolves from" the Basic form.

Its really not that hard to misunderstand.

[Prime]

I think I found a ruling that might help with the rare candy ruling.


Pokemon Chat Report - Thursday, November 30, 2000
by Ka-Lok Fung - Scrye Contributing Editor
Contributions by CHRISBO of Team Compendium

master_trainer_mike says, "Erika's Clefairy has an attack called Lunar Power, that has you flip a coin, If heads, search your deck for a card that evolves from 1 of your Benched Pokemon and put that card on that Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.) You CAN play this attack on the first turn and you can even choose a Pokemon on your Bench that you just played this turn. This attack (like Koga's Kakuna's Emerge Pokemon Power or TR Magikarp's Rapid Evolution attack) all break the standard "can't evolve turn 1 or the turn it was played" rule."

master_trainer_mike says, "To make it easier to understand, the standard evolution rules (Can't evolve turn 1 or the turn it was played) deal with the standard means of evolving; meaning taking the next Stage Pokemon from your hand and placing it on a Pokemon. Since these attacks and powers have you take a card from your deck and place it, they are NOT stopped by the standard evolution limits. This also falls under the term "played". Aerodactyl's Pokemon Power "Prehistoric Power" says No more Evolution cards can be played. The above attacks and powers would NOT be affected by this as those cards are not "played" (meaning played from your hand)."

Hmmm, interesting.

[Kyogre]

How about this as a common rule:

Evolution Cards that are played from your hand must follow all rules of Evolution. Even if its through a trainer card or Pokemon Power/Attack.

Evolution Cards that are played from the deck do not follow the rules of evolution. Therefore they can be played on the first turn/when you just play the Pokemon.

Does that seem to cover most of the situations, both old and new?

[dkates]

Well, that makes it clear as mud. Let's see. The questions on Rare Candy's mechanic are as follows:
Can this break the standard evolution rules? Meaning, can this Trainer allow a player to Evolve a Pokemon on the first turn of the game/ first turn this card is in play? Does this Trainer ignore game effects that would normally prohibit Evolving? For example, can this Trainer bypass Aerodactyl's Prehistoric Power? Can you use this Trainer to skip a stage of evolution, or only to move to the one directly following?
OK. Now, what ruling supports each possible answer to these questions?
This Trainer does not say you can break the standard evolution rules, nor does it say you cannot. There is no precedent for assumption, since all Trainers that affected Evolution before (Pokemon Breeder, Giovanni) answered this question in their text. Here, I believe it is safe to say that it does not. Why? Because you are still playing the Evolution card from your hand -- which means you are evolving with the standard method, which is affected by these effects. As far as skipping a stage of evolution, a literal interpretation of the wording says no. However, if the answers to the first and second questions are both no, then the answer to this question must be yes, or the Trainer doesn't do anything. Since a card that literally does nothing under any circumstances would not be printed, and if it were, it would do it much more simply, this card must do something.Still clear as mud, right? Well, basically, this means that, if my logic is correct, then one of the following is true.
You can evolve a Pokemon the first turn it is in play, but only by one stage. This effect, though powerful, is not necessarily unbalanced in and of itself. However, in combination with certain cards, it could become unbalanced. You can skip a stage of evolution, either going from Baby Pokemon to Stage 1 or Basic Pokemon to Stage 2, provided you would otherwise be allowed to evolve the Pokemon. This version makes Rare Candy a very slightly more powerful version of Pokemon Breeder, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. This interpretation is the most balanced of these three. You can evolve on the first turn the Pokemon is in play AND you can skip a stage of evolution. This interpretation I doubt, because it is extremely overpowered for any format.

[Prime]

Maybe, but it's up to the MT to make a rule.

[yoshi1001]

Well, here's my theory-the card is badly worded. Of course, it makes perfect sense to the person who wrote it- he or she probably intended for it not to break the 1st turn rule and to allow basic to stage 2 direct evolution, and thought the card was adequately worded to that effect. Obviously not.

[Kyogre]

I think its obvious now that this card does NOT by-pass the rule on evolution on the first turn nor does it by-pass the no evolution on the turn you played the basic.

I don't know why but the only ruling left would have to be if it is basically the same as a breeder (I.E. Stage 2 onto Basic). Based on the card text its almost obvious that it can work just like a Breeder. If the card said "Take a Pokemon that DIRECTLY evolves from the Basic" then I can understand how it couldn't but it says a Stage 2 that Evolves from the Basic. It doesn't say directly evolves from the basic, just evolves from the basic. And all stage 2 Pokemon evolve from a Basic.

[NoPoke]

Kyogre: Yes it does cover all situations but it redefines 'played' in order to achieve that result. I suspect that would open up another can of worms ;) In particular it changes some of the existing rulings in the compendium. So though it IS an appealing rule its impact is wide reaching.

At the moment the only outstanding issue is if the 'evolves from' text on the card limits the selection of the stage 1 or stage 2 as per the normal rules of evolution. On the one hand we are told that the card does not break normal evolution rules because it doesn't state that it does, and on the other hand we have the evolution chain example used by MTJimmer in his explanation that Pichu can't evolve into Electabuz Ex. I too would use a long chain in order to emphasize the point at which the chain breaks. But if you take MTJimmer's example as proof that the card breaks the normal evolution rules (like breeder) then his initial statement that the card doesn't break the normal evo rules is plainly incorrect.

Pokemon we were often told by MTM is a collection of rulings. I'm reasonably happy with that as long as we have rules and rulings that cover anticipated play situations. To my mind the 'evolves from' issue on Rare candy is not yet closed. I'm currently racking my ancient brain to see if I can think of a way of abusing/breaking the new interpretation of 'evolves from'.

As to your second post I did indicate 6 scenarios with possible YES NO answers against each. As I stated in that earlier post the only issue outstanding is can Rare Candy be used like breeder or is it another Lt surge's Secret plan

[Kyogre]

How about this:
"Evolves From" Also known as "Matching Pokemon": A Pokemon that is either a Stage 1 or Stage 2 that has a common Basic counterpart. I.E. Charizard and Charmeleon are the "Evolved forms" of Charmander. Charmander is the "Matching Pokemon" for Charizard and Charmeleon.

Thats just my idea but is there an older ruling that explains what "Evolves From" in the Compendium that I haven't heard about?

[NoPoke]

Kyogre you are proposing NEW rules rather than interpreting/clarifying what we currently have. I can fix problems by introducing new rules too :D.

The compendium doesn't have much to say about the term 'evolves from' since it was never an issue before Rare Candy.

Why would Charizard for example say on the card that it 'evolves from Charmeleon' if it equally evolves from charmander. The simplest explanation is that Charizard doesn't evolve from Charmander.

Imagine a new player who you are coaching. They played Charmander last turn and this turn they play Charizard ontop of their Charmander. No you can't do that you explain. Why they ask? Because Charizard evolves from Charmeleon would be the reply! If rare Candy allows Charizard to evolve from Charmander then the explanation of what evolving entails just got that much harder.

remember that BAD CARDS exist: Rare Candy might be one of them despite its initial promise.

[I'm still hoping that it is a breeder in disguise. But it hasn't been confirmed yet ;) ]

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

This IS confirmed. Mtjimmer has said it's a breeder. No 1st turn. Yes basic to stage 2. That is what it is until Mtjimmer changes it. Unless he does, the options of the card are just like Breeder.

[Mr. Grass]

Kyogre: I disagree about your statement that it is "obvious" that Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn evolution rule. We have a ruling but it is still being disputed and is in conflict with older rulings.
For now I'll follow MTJ's initial ruling, but I still want to go over this topic more thoroughly, especially comparing it to Wally's Training and the older "counts as evolving" cards.
I don't see how the card could not allow you to put a stage 2 right on the basic. It says right on the card to choose a basic pokemon and put onto it either a stage 1 or a stage 2.

[Kyogre]

Mr. Grass: Yeah I guess it isn't so obvious right now. I am just taking MTJimmer's ruling as the official one.

I just think that it is a breeder, nothing more.

[NoPoke]

This IS confirmed. Mtjimmer has said it's a breeder. No 1st turn. Yes basic to stage 2. That is what it is until Mtjimmer changes it. Unless he does, the options of the card are just like Breeder.
WHERE????

I can't find any statement by MTJimmer that 'it is just like breeder'

So show me where MTJimmer says 'its just like breeder' and I can sleep happily ;)

[Kyogre]

Someone Email MTJimmer or somebody that knows whether or not this is a breeder...

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

It's on page 2 on this topic. He says it doesn't break the first-turn rule. Quite clearly putting a stage 2 on a basic as it says in the text means its like a breeder. This is already being confirmed by others. Big Daddy Snorlax said that as well today! The only thing that seems in question are all these baby matters.

[Kyogre]

Well then why are some people like NoPoke still wondering if it can work as a breeder?

[yoshi1001]

I believe this text confirms it:

"You play Rare Candy on Wurmple. You have Dustox in your hand. How do you know it is the Stage 2? In your head, you think 1 of 2 ways...either up the chain, or down the chain.

Wumrple -> Cascoon -> Dustox; or,
Dustox from Cascoon from Wurmple.

The only place it defines what it evolves from his Dustox down, correct? That's how you've learned it from looking at the cards. (One of the differences of coming from *playing* the TCG or GBA.)"-MTJimmer

[Android17a]

Well, its OBVIOUS it's just a new breeder, isn't it? If it says "Put a stage 1 or 2 on the BASIC Pokemon", what more do you need?

[dkates]

Well, its OBVIOUS it's just a new breeder, isn't it? If it says "Put a stage 1 or 2 on the BASIC Pokemon", what more do you need?No offense, but if it's so obvious, then why are we now on page 6 of this thread?

[Android17a]

*shrug*

Well, I'm gonna play it like a breeder until otherwise confirmed.

[Fox!]

Wynaut just go with the Japanese ruling of the card? I mean, NOJ did make the card, right? Shouldn't NOA follow along?

IMO, I believe this card should allow Baby to Stage 1 Evos, but not 1st turn Evos, since it'll allow Pokemon like Gardevoir, Venusaur, Sceptile, Blastoise, etc to come out on turn 1, which wouldn't be good. Previous first turn rule breakers gave those Pokemon a chance to survive beyond the turn they were played (since most had low HP) if this card is allowed to break the first turn rule, you could also have 1st turn Wigglytuff (with Boost Energy), 1st turn Steelix, 1st turn Magcargo, 1st turn Muk, etc. Each having an unfair advantage if allowed to come out on turn 1.

To summarize my opinion:
Yes to Baby -> Stage 1
No to Evo on Turn 1

[NoPoke]

The Baby issue is completely resolved. It doesn't work on babies. (Babies no longer exist in EXON, they are all BASICS with a power that enables them to jump onto the bottom link of an evolutionary chain)

It also can't be used first turn as it follows, counts as, obeys the normal evolution rules.

Yoshi: I have tried to convince myself that MTJimmers reply using Wurmple and Dustox is to show that it works like breeder rather that to establish the 'chain' reasoning that is broken when you chose Pichu or Elekid. Unfortunately the context of the explanation is that he is demonstrating the logic behind going up and down an evolution chain to prove that babies CANNOT satisfy the 'evolves from' text.

Android: If all it said was 'put a stage 1 or stage 2 on the chosen basic' then there wouldn't be an issue with interpreting 'evolves from'. Evolves from is text that has a game meaning as it appears on every evolution card! We all know that Pikachu can evolve from Pichu. But not in the game sense meaning of evolves from .

All we need is a ruling on its use for the specific example number 2) that I outlined pages ago.

[BJJ763]

For the official word, click HERE in a little while......!

We were right - you can use Rare Candy on a Pokémon that you just put into play except on your first turn. So Unlimited just got a new friend - wait until your second turn before Benching your Basic and Rare Candying it to its Stage 2!

And does not work on Babies. Any Baby.

[NoPoke]

click...
hmpf

CLICK
GRRR


CLICK

help

[RainbowRichards]

**clicks on the here link, gets:

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[BJJ763]

:eek: Jumped the gun. Sorry you'll have to wait.

[RainbowRichards]

:eek: Jumped the gun. Sorry you'll have to wait.

**waiting patiently** [tap, tap, tap] :o [whistles] :rolleyes: [does nails][toe-nails, that is] :confused:

[BJJ763]

Just cuz this is such a hot topic:

Q. Can I use Rare Candy to place a Stage 2 onto a Basic Pokemon?

A. You can use Rare Candy to evolve a Basic Pokemon into a Stage 1 or Stage 2. This essentially counts as your "Evolution" for that Pokemon that turn, although it's not restricted by the first turn the Pokemon is in play. The Stage 1 reference is because the card works on the turn the Basic is played (not 1st turn of the game though). (Sep 11, 2003 PUI Rules Team Meeting)


Q. Can I use Rare Candy to evolve Pichu into Raichu EX?

A. No, Rare Candy states if you have a card that "Evolves From" your Pokemon. Pikachu does not say that it "Evolves From" Pichu, so Rare Candy will not work in this situation. (Sep 11, 2003 PUI Rules Team Meeting)


Q. Can I use Rare Candy on the first turn of a game (when Pokemon are not normally allowed to evolve)?

A. No. There is nothing in the card that allows it to break this rule. Nothing evolves on the first turn of the game! (Sep 11, 2003 PUI Rules Team Meeting)


Q. Can I use Rare Candy on a Pokemon's first turn in play? For example, can I place down a Wurmple and then use Rare Candy on the same turn to evolve it into Dustox or Beautifly?

A. Rare Candy doesn't allow you the first turn of the game, but it does allow you to evolve a Pokemon the first turn it is in play. (Sep 11, 2003 PUI Rules Team Meeting)

Wait'll you see the others! CHeck back probably after noon Eastern, hopefully you can get there....

[RainbowRichards]

wow

Energy Evolution Eevee can evolve on the first turn of the game, IIRC.

[PokePop]

not anymore.

[RainbowRichards]

not anymore.

bummer

[dkates]

Big change, making the first-turn evolution rule all-inclusive, but I guess it makes sense.

[Prime]

I like the new ruling. It does evolve on first turn it is out but not first turn of the game. I am pleased that no first turn evol and others are pleased because of the first turn lay down evo. Nice ruling.

[dkates]

Agreed. Nice compromise. Being able to pull a Stage 2 turn 1 is very different from being able to pull a Stage 2 "out of thin air" later in the game.

[Mr. Grass]

I was hoping for a ruling like this and I'll definately be using the card in some of my decks. Just one question: Where did those Q&A's come from?

[PokePop]

The rulings came from the first PUSA-TC Rules chat.
All rulings are blessed/made by Jimmer Sivertsen.

[NoPoke]

Well this rulling has gone on my one-to-watch list. We had a few of those under WotC too. I fully expect that the stage 2 out of thin air aspect to rare candy will get changed at some point in the future. Can't say when yet ;). My crystal ball is currently completely focused on OP pre-release tournaments outside the USA.