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Thread: Why 'Playground' doesn't let the player going 2nd get around Evolution rules

  1. #26
    Administrator PokePop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austino View Post
    To simplify:

    If YOU go FIRST with Pichu, your opponent CAN'T evolve those pokes
    If YOU go SECOND with Pichu, your opponent CAN evolve those pokes.

    Correct?
    Right. Or Level Up, for Ryan's sake.
    Nopoke laid it out well.
    Is it your first turn?
    Then you can't evolve or level up.
    It doesn't matter where the Pokemon came from. It's still your first turn.

    Any turn after the first of either player, the only question is, "was this Pokemon already in play when I started my turn?"
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  2. #27
    (just wanted to clarify on the point of level Xs- better safe than sorry, and its best to be as explicit as possible)
    r

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanvergel View Post
    The reason Pichu is such a BAD and misleadingly good starter is because people don't realize how nice of an opportunity if affords the opponent. Your opponent gets to immediately evolve if you went second! Does this work for leveling up?
    ?
    its not bad if you use it with the correct pokemon (Jumpluff) but glad to see this was cleared up... reading all the comments, some made it alil mroe complcated then it seemed lol.

    My only question that i didnt see posted, is if you are the person who goes second, AFTER player 1 uses playground, you still cant use R.Candy to evolve ?
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  4. #29
    Administrator PokePop's Avatar
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    Rare Candy is a totally different thing. We were discussing normal evolution.
    Using an effect gets around timing restrictions
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  5. #30
    I digress to Duskull again. Reaper Cloth doesn't seem to be an effect you use to evolve, its text telling you that Duskull plays under a different ruleset (One where you can evolve the turn you come into play). Not being able to evolve the turn you come into play is one rule governing evolution. Another is that you can't evolve on the first turn, period. Duskull seems to only act outside the influence of the first, but he is allowed to evolve turn 1. How does this work if evolving is strictly prohibited without an outside effect on T1?
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShuckleLVX View Post
    Reaper Cloth doesn't seem to be an effect you use to evolve
    But that is EXACTLY what it is, as PokePop explained. Just picture it coming with a built in Rare Candy mechanism and you won't get it confused. It's the same with Clefairy and Murkrow also from Secret Wonders which have the same mechanic, just with different names. They override the turn 1 rule the same as Rare Candy or BTS would if you are going second. In this case, it will even work if you go first because it is built in and you don't have to play a trainer to get the effect.

    Here's the compendium ruling:

    Reaper Cloth (Duskull - Secret Wonders)
    Q. Does Duskull's "Reaper Cloth" item, or Clefairy's "Moon Stone" item, or Murkrow's "Dusk Stone" item let you evolve on the first turn of the game?
    A. Yes, they do. Duskull, Clefairy, and Murkrow can be evolved during the first turn of the game, even if you put them on your Bench or as your Active Pokemon during setup. (DP:Secret Wonders FAQ; Nov 15, 2007 PUI Rules Team)
    Which can be found here.
    Last edited by waynegg; 02/05/2010 at 02:21 AM.
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  7. #32
    I KNOW the ruling, I even mention it. What I want is to UNDERSTAND the ruling. It doesn't seem like Duskull overrides the "Cant evolve Turn 1", it only says it overrides "Can't evolve the turn you come into play", which we have well established are different rules.
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  8. #33
    Administrator PokePop's Avatar
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    You're starting with the premise that Reaper Cloth and other Items are not effects.
    They are.
    So any reasoning that follows from your incorrect premise is invalid.
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  9. #34
    with apologies for the following pedantry...

    waynegg, Just because the thread is into splitting hairs I'd suggest that the PokePOWER Baby Evolution is closer to how Reaper Cloth works than Rare Candy. The hair split being that Rare Candy is often used to skip playing an intermediate evolution card; a significant difference between it and Reaper Cloth.

  10. #35
    I run Dusknoir, from what i was told, Reaper Cloth is basiclly like Rare Candy attached to him... which then would go around the No Evolving T1. but Reaper Cloth only lets you play the Stage 1, not the Stage 2.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoPoke View Post
    with apologies for the following pedantry...

    waynegg, Just because the thread is into splitting hairs I'd suggest that the PokePOWER Baby Evolution is closer to how Reaper Cloth works than Rare Candy. The hair split being that Rare Candy is often used to skip playing an intermediate evolution card; a significant difference between it and Reaper Cloth.
    You're very right. It is much more similar to Baby Evolution, except that it doesn't HAVE to use Reaper Cloth to evolve. I just threw Rare Candy out there because it was the first thing which popped into my head for something that gets around normal evolution rules for evolving immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShuckleLVX View Post
    I KNOW the ruling, I even mention it. What I want is to UNDERSTAND the ruling. It doesn't seem like Duskull overrides the "Cant evolve Turn 1", it only says it overrides "Can't evolve the turn you come into play", which we have well established are different rules.
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    Last edited by waynegg; 02/05/2010 at 11:53 AM.
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  12. #37
    waynegg : :D

    ShuckleLVX: where does it say that the two rules restricting normal evolution are different? Different in the sense of being independant rather than one being a nuance of the other or even just a single rule that is split into two sentances to avoid those complexity adding conjunctions.

  13. #38
    To add more confusion in this, to some at least. The following is from the HGSS rulebook, page 9 at the top which I believe is what Pokepop was refering to in an earlier post.


    Sorry, you cannot evolve a Pokemon that you just played or evolved on that turn. Also, neither player can evolve a Pokemon on the first turn. And finally, yes, you can evolve a Pokemon on the bench - that counts as "in play" !


    The reason I am questioning again is the 2nd sentence... Also neither player can evolve a Pokemon on the first turn...

    If that had said ...Also neither player can evolve a Pokemon on their first turn I could fully understand. With it saying the first turn, that still leads me think this rule needs to be revisited, possibly with Japan, that the intent of the statement truly means neither players first turn, not just THE first turn.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man View Post
    To add more confusion in this, to some at least. The following is from the HGSS rulebook, page 9 at the top which I believe is what Pokepop was refering to in an earlier post.


    Sorry, you cannot evolve a Pokemon that you just played or evolved on that turn. Also, neither player can evolve a Pokemon on the first turn. And finally, yes, you can evolve a Pokemon on the bench - that counts as "in play" !


    The reason I am questioning again is the 2nd sentence... Also neither player can evolve a Pokemon on the first turn...

    If that had said ...Also neither player can evolve a Pokemon on their first turn I could fully understand. With it saying the first turn, that still leads me think this rule needs to be revisited, possibly with Japan, that the intent of the statement truly means neither players first turn, not just THE first turn.

    There is no reason to revisit the rule. Outside Mechanics (Pokemon Breeder, Rare Candy, Broken Time-Space, these mechanics on the Pokemon, etc...) have since the very beginning of the game ALWAYS ignored normal evolution rules. There is no change and honestly no reason for the confusion.
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  15. #40
    What's Playground? I've only been out of the Pokemon scene for about three weeks and I've already missed something.
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  16. #41
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    Playground is a potential fast set up attack.
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  17. #42
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    The basic thing about this, and any card game for that matter is this.

    Card text ALWAYS overrides the rulebook.

    Rulebook says "You cannot evolve on your first turn"
    Rare Candy, BTS, Baby Evolution, and the 3 held items all state you can evolve the turn you put it into play.

    You use the card text in this instance.

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  18. #43
    No, the rulebook says you cannot evolve on THE first turn. It does not specify if it applies only to the player going first or both players first turn.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man View Post
    No, the rulebook says you cannot evolve on THE first turn. It does not specify if it applies only to the player going first or both players first turn.
    It could be clarified, though. I could see that being misunderstood.
    I'll pass it on to exobyte.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShuckleLVX View Post
    I KNOW the ruling, I even mention it. What I want is to UNDERSTAND the ruling. It doesn't seem like Duskull overrides the "Cant evolve Turn 1", it only says it overrides "Can't evolve the turn you come into play", which we have well established are different rules.
    In reality, you should just read Duskull as "This Pokemon can evolve at any time."
    It doesn't matter what the first turn rule is. It says "This Pokemon can evolve during the turn it is put into play." If this happens to be on T1, it overrides that rule as well.
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  21. #46

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    Wait, so would cards like Arceus Burmy and Secret Wonders Duskull be able to evolve on turn 1 if you placed them on the field through your opponent's Playground attack, even though you technically didn't play them on your turn? Or, as others are saying in this thread, can these Pokemon evolve at any time, regardless of when they're placed on the field?

  22. #47
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    Those cards can evolve at any time.
    Bad wording for the Item/Body
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  23. #48
    i may be wrong but i think you guys are over-thinking this

    its seems to me that unless you have had the pokemon on your bench since the very beginning of your turn, you can not evolve, unless there is something on a card that strictly passes the time rule.

    doesn't seem to complicated.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by travis3290 View Post
    i may be wrong but i think you guys are over-thinking this

    its seems to me that unless you have had the pokemon on your bench since the very beginning of your turn, you can not evolve, unless there is something on a card that strictly passes the time rule.

    doesn't seem to complicated.
    Yeah.... but that's the case here, so that alone would not be enough to prevent a Pokemon from being evolved on the second players first turn.
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