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Thread: OFFICIAL: Tournament Round structure for Regionals

  1. #1
    Technical Administrator losjackal's Avatar
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    Post OFFICIAL: Tournament Round structure for Regionals

    This information about the structure of rounds at the upcoming Regionals is from Professor_Dav. It will be published in tournament documents soon, but I mentioned players have been craving this information so here it is.

    NOTE: the pertinent information for Regionals, in particular for Masters, is the 227-409 attendance range on the second chart. The point in sharing this ASAP was to start educating people about the two-day split. I expect some subtleties of the rest of the information may be better explained in the official documentation.


    Cities, States, and Small Regionals

    Attendance Swiss Rounds Playoff
    8 3 Rounds None (run only 3 Swiss rounds)
    9-12 4 Rounds Top 4
    13-20 5 Rounds Top 4
    21-32 5 Rounds Top 8
    33-64 6 Rounds Top 8
    65-128 7 Rounds Top 8
    129-226 8 Rounds Top 8
    227-409 9 Rounds Top 8



    Large Regionals and Nationals

    Attendance Swiss Rounds Day 2 Playoff
    8 3 Rounds None None (run only 3 swiss rounds)
    9-12 4 Rounds None Top 4
    13-20 5 Rounds None Top 4
    21-32 5 Rounds None Top 8
    33-64 6 Rounds None Top 8
    65-128 7 Rounds None Top 8
    129-226 8 Rounds None Top 8
    227-799 9 Rounds X-2 or T32 whichever is greater (5 rounds) Top 8
    800 or higher 9 Rounds (2 flights) X-2 or T32 whichever is greater (6 rounds) Top 8

    Last edited by losjackal; 10/11/2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Pokemon updated smaller rounds recently

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  3. #2
    Will LCs have that same round structure? Or will they be based on last season's round structures? That looks MARVELOUS for small-to-medium sized tournaments.
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  5. #4
    10 rounds for 410-799?

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    Forum Moderator sdrawkcab's Avatar
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    For the x-2 cut into day two. Is that 9 rounds total between the two days, or 9 rounds day 1, and 5 rounds day two?
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    Technical Administrator losjackal's Avatar
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    For 410-799, they play 9 Bof3 rounds on Day One, and then 5 more Rounds of Bof3 on Day 2. 14. Total. Rounds.

    How cool is that.

  8. #7
    Question about States larger than 226: How should they be run? Should you bump to 9 rounds, straight cut to T8? Or some other style yet to be announced? I love EVERYTHING else that's up there, gives Pokemon an elegant tournament structure IMO.
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  9. #8
    I think it would be better to have the day 2 entries still larger for a US nats size event. 6-3 in the first 9 rounds can still make a very good finish with 6 more rounds. Even if they don't top 8, each level of nationals is now worth a lot of points. Though US nats was already 3 days so maybe it will have its own unique structure.

    I guess in general I'd rather see the day 2 cuts larger. Why should someone who had some bad luck to go 6-3 be denied the chance to go 4-1, 5-0 the next day when it isn't adding time? From a minimizing variance over the event perspective, the day 2 cut doesn't help. (more rounds absolutely helps, very glad to see that...at least for regionals) I suppose it adds tables but not a whole lot of them.

    Otherwise, this seems like a good structure. I wouldn't mind 2-day states now though if they could get the extra swiss rounds. The extra swiss rounds is really what makes the smaller cut work, but for the 1 day events we're paying that time cost for 2/3 swiss. It's still debatable whether we'd be better off with single game 30 minutes and a few more rounds rather than the awkward 50 min 2/3.
    Last edited by Pidgeotto Trainer; 10/03/2013 at 09:25 PM.
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    Technical Administrator losjackal's Avatar
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    Yes, above 226 players would be 9 Rounds T8 in a single day by default. But with some PTOs experimenting with 2-day States, it could be different.

  11. #10
    I would have liked another round or two for swiss at some of these larger events.
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  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pidgeotto Trainer View Post
    I think it would be better to have the day 2 entries still larger for a US nats size event. 6-3 in the first 9 rounds can still make a very good finish with 6 more rounds. Even if they don't top 8, each level of nationals is now worth a lot of points. Though US nats was already 3 days so maybe it will have its own unique structure.

    I guess in general I'd rather see the day 2 cuts larger. Why should someone who had some bad luck to go 6-3 be denied the chance to go 4-1, 5-0 the next day when it isn't adding time? From a minimizing variance over the event perspective, the day 2 cut doesn't help. (more rounds absolutely helps, very glad to see that...at least for regionals) I suppose it adds tables but not a whole lot of them.

    Otherwise, this seems like a good structure. I wouldn't mind 2-day states now though if they could get the extra swiss rounds. The extra swiss rounds is really what makes the smaller cut work, but for the 1 day events we're paying that time cost for 2/3 swiss. It's still debatable whether we'd be better off with single game 30 minutes and a few more rounds rather than the awkward 50 min 2/3.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems good to me since ties will be a thing. While 6-3 might not make cut, but 6-2-1, or 5-2-2 would make cut, so it's not quite as punishing, and it takes some of the variance away of some 6-3's making cut while others don't, assuming the number of x-2's is greater than 32 which I think it should be at most things.
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  13. #12
    So regional championships with 227+ attendance have become a 3 tiered event? 9 rounds of swiss day 1 and a "preliminary" top cut of X-2 (or top 32) day 2, followed by the actual top 8 cut consisting of players with the best records on day 2. How is top 8 determined? Is it inclusive of day 1 records (14-0, 13-1, etc.) or just the best records after day 2 preliminaries where day 1 records no longer matter (5-0, 4-1, etc.)? Also, what conditions would result in a tie? Intentional draw, game 2 goes to time (>50% of prizes taken?), something else? Is there no more sudden death? Will all regionals use the 3-0-1 point system for win/loss/tie, respectively? Need answers for next week's event.
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  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
    So regional championships with 227+ attendance have become a 3 tiered event? 9 rounds of swiss day 1 and a "preliminary" top cut of X-2 (or top 32) day 2, followed by the actual top 8 cut consisting of players with the best records on day 2. How is top 8 determined? Is it inclusive of day 1 records (14-0, 13-1, etc.) or just the best records after day 2 preliminaries where day 1 records no longer matter (5-0, 4-1, etc.)? Also, what conditions would result in a tie? Intentional draw, game 2 goes to time (>50% of prizes taken?), something else? Is there no more sudden death? Will all regionals use the 3-0-1 point system for win/loss/tie, respectively? Need answers for next week's event.
    I would assume day 1 records are included in day 2, it would be horrible if they weren't. To my knowledge you get a tie with an incomplete game 3 after +3 turns or an intentional draw. There is no sudden death. If game 2 is unfinished when +3 turns is over the game 1 winner wins the match. I'm sure the point system is the same for everywhere as that is very standard and used in other games.
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  16. #14
    Makes no sense to include Day 1 in Day 2. Day 2 is likely separate with its own Opponent's Win %. This helps keep your Theme Deck R1 / R2 opponents from bringing down your Opponent's Win % as everyone in the X-2 / Top 32 cut will be competent.

    Also wondering what is considered X-2. For example, in a 227 Regional, let's say I win 2 games, tie 5, and lose 2. Do I make it to Day 2?
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FirestormXVI View Post
    Makes no sense to include Day 1 in Day 2. Day 2 is likely separate with its own Opponent's Win %. This helps keep your Theme Deck R1 / R2 opponents from bringing down your Opponent's Win % as everyone in the X-2 / Top 32 cut will be competent.

    Also wondering what is considered X-2. For example, in a 227 Regional, let's say I win 2 games, tie 5, and lose 2. Do I make it to Day 2?
    So, going 9-0 on day one is the same thing as 7-2 and the records should reset for 5 rounds of swiss? No. This isn't a top cut or single elimination. You, and everyone else shouldn't worry so much about opponent's win percentage when there are 15 rounds, either. I feel strongly about this.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoyofsho16 View Post
    ...tech against water types. which will probably be near non-existant in DP-RR. This card is okay at best. The normal Luxray GL is just AWFUL. It has no good attacks, and the Lv X attack is pretty much all it has going for it. Sure, 60 damage is pretty good early game, especially for 1 energy, but late game it is pretty mediocre at best. 5/10.

  18. #16

    OFFICIAL: Tournament Round structure for Regionals

    Did not realize this was an unknown, it's been on the Fort Wayne regional thread for awhile.

    More importantly, that post specifically states "21 points", which is far from the 0-2-7 that could cut if it was truly all x-2.

    That means 6-0-3 cuts too. Going to be very interesting.

  19. #17
    Also, am I the only one who finds it odd that they specifically call out a difference at 410, but there is no actual difference in tournament structure?
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    Technical Administrator losjackal's Avatar
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    King Piplup, you are correct, Derek explained it as best he could in this post, but not a lot of people have seen that. I received the information above, and similarly I was told I can share the formation because players need to know about the two-day split. I think until the information is publishes, there is still more to learn. For instance, Derek says he bases his "21 points" on Magic, so I suppose it remains to proven that this is the case for us. I don't know for sure how to reconcile it against the "X-2" information I have above.

    I added the below statement to my post, just to highlight what players should be looking at.

    NOTE: the pertinent information for Regionals, in particular for Masters, is the 227-409 attendance range on the second chart. The point in sharing this ASAP was to start educating people about the two-day split. I expect some subtleties of the rest of the information may be better explained in the official documentation.

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  22. #19
    The "21 point" caveat guarantees only players with 6 wins have a chance to cut and anyone with 7 wins guaranteed cut.

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    I don't see how anything short of 257 warrants 9 rounds.
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by losjackal View Post
    King Piplup, you are correct, Derek explained it as best he could in this post, but not a lot of people have seen that. I received the information above, and similarly I was told I can share the formation because players need to know about the two-day split. I think until the information is publishes, there is still more to learn. For instance, Derek says he bases his "21 points" on Magic, so I suppose it remains to proven that this is the case for us. I don't know for sure how to reconcile it against the "X-2" information I have above.
    Actually I just said that I believed that was how Magic also ran the events. I had already been told that the 21 point thing would hold true. Basically if you have 2 days you have 9 rounds, with that chart it has no other options. So with 21 points all 9-0-0, 8-1-0, 8-0-1, 7-2-0, 7-1-1, 7-0-2, 6-0-3 would make cut. Also note that it does say that it will be all those OR top 32 players, whichever is greater. So if you only have 30 players meeting that requirement 2 players that don't would also make it.

    Your record from day 1 will carry over to day 2, however you will be able to play players day 2 that you played day 1. Also, if you no show or drop, you have dropped from the tournament. You would not get any prizes or CP's.
    Last edited by farbsman; 10/04/2013 at 07:49 AM. Reason: I can't type
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  26. #22
    The additional rounds are a great implementation that complement the reduced top cut size. This system has worked beautifully for Magic: The Gathering for years. One improvement that will still need to be made is in the 50+3 time limits. 50+3 is far short of what is needed to play a legitimate Best 2-of-3 series, so far that it will reduce the amount of playable decks.

    This problem can be fixed by lowering the amount of rounds: Remove one-third of the rounds, and increase time limits by one-third.

    For example: 15 rounds of 50+3 would become 10 rounds of 75+3.

    Both use a total of 12.5 hours of play time. (10 rounds actually saves a small amount of time as the judges have less results to gather and rounds to post.) Though there are less rounds, this method greatly increases the legitimacy of the swiss rounds, and allows players to actually finish their games.

    Not everyone here has played in such a low time limit before, but I'm confident that after playing Regionals, there will be a strong agreement that the 50+3 time limits are insufficient and need to be expanded. This method allows for this without adding time to the event.
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  27. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by farbsman View Post
    Your record from day 1 will carry over to day 2, however you will be able to play players day 2 that you played day 1. Also, if you no show or drop, you have dropped from the tournament. You would not get any prizes or CP's.
    Does this mean you have to play all 5 rounds on D2 in order to get CP/prizes? Or is it just for the time between D1 and D2?

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  28. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by SMP88 View Post
    Does this mean you have to play all 5 rounds on D2 in order to get CP/prizes? Or is it just for the time between D1 and D2?
    From what I understand, yes. Dropping on day 2 is just like dropping on day one, so you get no prizes/CP.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by bullados View Post
    Also, am I the only one who finds it odd that they specifically call out a difference at 410, but there is no actual difference in tournament structure?
    It does look strange, but that's there so that we can adjust the number of day two rounds if we feel it necessary to do so in the future. For example, if all you Masters players decide that you're super excited about going to events, and there are a lot more events hitting that attendance range, we may see that 5 rounds for day 2 is sub-optimal and push it to 6 rounds in that bracket, regardless of the number of players making day 2.

    For an event like Nationals, however, where flights are likely, we'll push T32 or X-2 and better from each flight into the next day as one event, which will then run six rounds.

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    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bulbasnore View Post
    I don't see how anything short of 257 warrants 9 rounds.
    It's far better to add that Swiss round at 227 when we're taking only a T8 at the end. Particularly true of a one day event with 227 players. There are some weird points in Swiss with only 8 rounds where an X-1 has a shot at missing the cut in a T8, which we want to avoid.

    Thanks,
    Prof_Dav

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by farbsman View Post
    From what I understand, yes. Dropping on day 2 is just like dropping on day one, so you get no prizes/CP.
    Correct, not ideal, but is the way it works for now. We hope to fix that in a future release.

    Thanks,
    Prof_Dav

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