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Thread: Infinity Engine

  1. #1

    Infinity Engine

    I'd like to present several versions of a deck engine I've been tinkering with, one that is legal now, and one that will be legal when the next set is released. You'll see the basic strategy is the same, though the execution of the combo differs slightly. What I'm mostly interested in is seeing what everyone here thinks would be the ideal hitter for the second version of the deck.

    Here's the basic concept: You hit really hard every turn , and never get knocked out. In fact, unless your opponent can do more than 110 damage in one turn, they will, hopefully, never take a prize.

    First, the currently-legal list:

    2 pidgey d
    2 pidgeotto d
    2 pidgeot POP2
    2 spearow
    2 fearow d
    2 wingull
    2 pelipper d
    2 Rayquaza d (power blow)
    2 Mewtwo d
    1 Rayquaza *
    4 Holon's Castform
    Total: 23

    3 Holon Mentor
    4 transciever
    2 scientist
    1 adventurer
    4 TV reporter/Bill's Maintenance/etc.
    4 Celio's Network
    3 Briney
    4 windstorm
    Total: 25

    12 Lightning Energy
    Total: 12

    TOTAL: 60

    By first seeking out your fearow d, you should be able to set up fairly quickly. Your bench should consist of a pidgeot, a pelipper, and a fearow. The active will be rayquaza d (there is nothing better in the format currently that works here. Next format, though...well, keep reading...) . Load energy onto that rayquaza to your heart's content. Each time it takes damage, drop another one on the bench, drop the mewtwo, trans the energy to the new one, and use pelipper to pull back the damaged one. Activate pidgeot. Pick up the damaged rayquaza, and stick it into the deck. Grab it again with fearow for the next turn, and attack with the newly activated rayquaza. When you get an opportunity, pick up the mewtwo d. The briney's will help with this if you get behind a turn. Using this repetition, you should be able to maintain a consistent battery of refreshed rayquazas.

    They are, however, more vulnerable than you'd like, and the mewtwo is not the ideal way to manipulate the energy. All of that will come in the next format, with the real infinity engine. That looks like this:

    4 Mareep d (or 3 in rayquaza version)
    3 Flaafy d (2 in rayquaza version)
    2 Ampharos d (Unnecessary in the rayquaza -ex d version, which then opens up space for trainers)
    2 Ampharos (UF)
    2 wingull
    2 pelipper d
    2 spearow
    2 fearow d
    2 pidgey d
    1 pidgeotto d
    2 pidgeot (POP2)
    3 Ho-oh ex. Or rayquaza -ex d. Or (Your input here. It can be any high-hp basic)
    Total: 27

    2 Holon Mentor
    4 transceiver
    2 scientist
    2 adventurer
    4 Celio's Network
    3 Rare Candy
    4 Windstorm
    2 Copycat/Steven's/etc. (draw of your choice)
    Total: 23

    2 Fire
    2 Water
    2 Grass
    2 Fighting
    2 Electric
    (for Ho-oh)

    OR

    10 lightning
    (for rayquaza)
    Total: 10
    TOTAL: 60

    Again, fearow will be vital to setting up adequately. Fortunately, since you'll be essentially brineying something each turn, you have a few turns to stall before you get going. Here, your bench, which will be tight, will have 2 ampharos (1 of each type), the pelipper, the fearow, and the pop2 pidgeot. Your active will be your main attacker. Let's say it's the ho-oh -ex version. You have 3 basic energy on there, for 70 damage a turn. Not bad. Opponent hits you for 100. You swap ho-oh down with pelipper, activating pidgeot. Transfer the energy from ho-oh to pidgeot. Pidgeot away the ho-oh. Grab it again with fearow (it's delta, because of the ampharos d), and retreat pidgeot. Transfer the energy back up to ho-oh, attach another, and hit for 90. Repeat (Didja get all that?).

    With rayquaza -ex d, you do not need the delta ampharos, since fearow can grab it anyway. This frees up a good amount of space, both in the deck and in the bench. It does not have the damage ceiling ho-oh does, but it also doesn't have a weakness, and can hit the bench.

    A third option in the ampharos d version would be to run three major ex'es, perhaps one ho-oh, one rayquaza, and one (insert additional type here, maybe a mew -ex...to diversify types). That way, you could address various weaknesses you might encounter, fearowing for the appropriate pokemon each time.

    About 20 test runs or so of the new version (with proxies) has it set up completely around turn 4 or so (3 with the rayquaza ex version...thank god for fearow). From there, it's mighty hard to beat. It's obvious weaknesses are things that hurt/shut down powers and things that mess with the bench. Pelipper offers that free retreat, though, and pidgeot can cure what ails any pokemon you've got out there (hard to rebuild if you have to recycle the amphy though).

    Any suggestions for the deck overall, or more specifically alternatives to ho-oh, rayquaza -ex d, etc. are super-duper welcome. Feel free to tinker with it, and playtest it. Because of the myriad steps during each turn, the need to manage your energies, the potential in the ampharos d version to use almost any pokemon you'd like, and the complexity of the combination, it's a boatload of fun to play. Competitive? We'll see.

    I'm also working on (and would love input on) a version that runs fossils, jolteon -ex, and no energy. That'd be more for fun, but since fossils count as delta pokemon while in play, pelipper can swap them. (I haven't asked, but I'll betcha fearow can't grab them from the deck).

    Cheers,

    Jake/Dendro
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  2. #2
    Administrator bulbasnore's Avatar
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    Might be fun to try Crawdaunt EX, a stage 1 compromise between Ray EX, Basic, & Amphy Stage 2, since we're going for Powers here, provides a nice defensive move, and still has the 'attack with stored energy' theme.

    Good to see those Windstorm. Who will have 3/3 Cessation/Mysterious?

    I think you're right about the Fossils, they Body that makes them ∂ Pokémon in the deck, applies to, well, Pokémon, and, as you are saying, Fossils in the deck are Trainers. Worth asking though, you never know when PCL has an exception.
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  3. #3
    Crawdaunt has the flashy energy conservation goodness attack, but being a non-delta stage one, it needs the ampharos d to allow fearow to regrab it each turn (that's critical for the recycling part) and for pelipper to swap it out, and it it needs to be basic to not compromise hitting each turn. A stage one would miasma (can I use that as a verb? I just did!) the deck, at least on (my) paper. Haven't tested it yet, though. Where would you find the space for the line?

    Oh, also, note that in the ampharos d version, you really need only one copy of your main hitter. Above I have 3 ho-oh ex listed. You really only need 1. 2 would help avoid prize badness. 2 and a tech something else would be spiffy (the other rayquaza -ex?)
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  4. #4
    Wait, are you sure you aren't venusaur?:p

  5. #5
    best deck idea ever. congrats! i knew someone would find potential with peliper d. why not take advantage of hermit when the next set comes out. or buffer piece...mmm buffery...
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  6. #6
    Feature Editor Flaming_Spinach's Avatar
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    I don't particularly like the deck. It seems like too delicate of a balance to me.

    I'm not sure of how you'd do to any deck that hits the bench. ie. Megalix, Raieggs, and Flariados to name a few.


    It's definatelly an interesting deck, but I just don't see much potential with it.





    PS. There's only 1 INFINITY, and this aint it.
    Pseudo-retired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokepop
    Pokemon Catcher has already destroyed evolution decks.
    Some people just haven't realized it yet.

  7. #7
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    Jake, jake, jake, your daughter hasn't seemed to slow you down one bit. Always with those weird ideas. But you know, I've been on the other side of the table from a few of those "weird" ideas. Good luck with it Jake, I'm sure you'll make it great.

    EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. Rayquaza EX δ out of Dragon Frontiers. It has an attack for LC that lets it snipe anything for 20-30, but 50 if it has a body or power. If your behind in prizes, all C costs go away, making it able to do 70 for LL and snipe anything for just L. So you just snipe, snipe, snipe, when it gets close to die, shuffle it back into the deck and go get another and (hopefully your down on prizes) put 1 energy and keep sniping (not taking prizes). Then when your ready, just start KO'ing things. Jolteon EX might work (I doubt it) or something else.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaming_Spinach
    PS. There's only 1 INFINITY, and this aint it.
    a link? or explaination?
    Quote Originally Posted by thephoenix View Post
    When autotune, post processing, and 3 pounds of makeup make you a "seriously amazing singer", it's time for God to destroy the world and start over once again.
    Remember DX-ON

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime
    Jake, jake, jake, your daughter hasn't seemed to slow you down one bit. Always with those weird ideas. But you know, I've been on the other side of the table from a few of those "weird" ideas. Good luck with it Jake, I'm sure you'll make it great.

    EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. Rayquaza EX δ out of Dragon Frontiers. It has an attack for LC that lets it snipe anything for 20-30, but 50 if it has a body or power. If your behind in prizes, all C costs go away, making it able to do 70 for LL and snipe anything for just L. So you just snipe, snipe, snipe, when it gets close to die, shuffle it back into the deck and go get another and (hopefully your down on prizes) put 1 energy and keep sniping (not taking prizes). Then when your ready, just start KO'ing things. Jolteon EX might work (I doubt it) or something else.
    Matt, you'll note that rayquaza ex d is the one to which I refer in the second list. Hence, I'm likely to agree with your assessment (given that it agrees with mine :P). Great minds think alike, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaming_Spinach
    I don't particularly like the deck. It seems like too delicate of a balance to me.

    I'm not sure of how you'd do to any deck that hits the bench. ie. Megalix, Raieggs, and Flariados to name a few.


    It's definatelly an interesting deck, but I just don't see much potential with it.





    PS. There's only 1 INFINITY, and this aint it.
    Flaming Spinach: Not sure what to do with your post....not much substance in there. I tried adding a 2-2 line of "flaming spinach thinks this sucks", but I found I didn't have room. Likewise with the tech "Some stuff pwns this". I tried the "Flaming Spinach copyrighted the word INFINITY and didn't tell anyone" strategy on apprentice, but it lacked late-game comeback ability. I value your opinions, but given that I'm going to play this because I think it looks like a heckuva lot of fun (personal taste), I posted it in the deck help and strategy forum in order to get other's input on the decklist (help) and how they might play it (strategy). I'm not really looking for a rating of the idea. One of the things we're trying to cultivate here is an atmosphere of mutual assistance and positive reinforcement. I'm an old hand at this, so flame away on me...I think, though, that we're all looking for board members to be a little more constructive in this forum with their comments, particularly if the posters are younger/newer to the game. I will keep in mind that you feel it has balance issues...though that's pretty vague, I think I might be able to suss out some sort of constructive critique from that and see if I can address it, if I find it becomes a problem.

    ADAM: I checked out hermit, and I think it has potential in a number of decks. Not sure about this one, though...I'd opt to take that 3rd card with another draw card, or use a copycat instead. Buffer piece, or energy root, would work well if you opt to feature a non-ex attacker.

    Moza: I am positive I am neither the pokemon venusaur nor the user on the boards (Jeremy). Why do you ask?
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  10. #10
    Feature Editor Flaming_Spinach's Avatar
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    *sigh*

    You want some substance? How about this:


    The fix depends on what type of deck becomes big in your area.


    Maganium-Steelix: Ho-oh would definatelly be the better choice. Ray d ex is resisted too hardcore by Steelix to be any good. If you play Ray, they will simply send up a Steelix and snipe your Fearows and Pidgeots until you have nothing left to prevent the 2HKO on your Ray. Agro Hooh is the only real chance you have. Dugtrio's a possibility.

    Raieggs: Hard to tell which version would be better. Their Zzzaps plus Curse Stones plus BFs plus Ces. Crystals would make this a very hard match. Dugtrio might be able to save your bench (at least, until they play a Ces. Crystal and Zzzap the same turn).

    Metanite: They CAN reach 110 damage. Ho-oh would at least be able to OHKO their Metagrosses, but they will just OHKO you back (eventhough it may take a turn or two). Buffer Piece would help.

    Gardevoir d ex (yes, it'scoming): They place 1 Seal Marker and defeat everything you setup for. Since there's no way(I can see) that you're going to OHKO them, each Gardevoir will put AT LEAST 2 Seal Markers in play. The only way you have a chance is with Tropius.

    Mewtrick:

    Luarock:


    Basically, you lose to anything with power denial or bench damage. If you're looking for ideas, here's a list of what I proposed,andsome other ideas I didn't get to.

    Buffer Piece
    Dugtrio
    Ho-oh > Ray aslong as you can get the right energies on him.
    Tropius




    I g2g. Will edit or add more later.

    ttyl.
    Pseudo-retired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokepop
    Pokemon Catcher has already destroyed evolution decks.
    Some people just haven't realized it yet.

  11. #11
    Looks very nice.

    However if your opponent plays Giant Stump at any time after T4/T5 you are quite screwed. Yes I'm stating the obvious, but one fairly common card should NOT mess you up this much.

  12. #12
    Jake, Vensuar came up with an idea similar in the fact that it would last forever for the Iron Chef.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaming_Spinach
    *sigh*

    You want some substance? How about this:


    The fix depends on what type of deck becomes big in your area.


    Maganium-Steelix: Ho-oh would definatelly be the better choice. Ray d ex is resisted too hardcore by Steelix to be any good. If you play Ray, they will simply send up a Steelix and snipe your Fearows and Pidgeots until you have nothing left to prevent the 2HKO on your Ray. Agro Hooh is the only real chance you have. Dugtrio's a possibility.

    Raieggs: Hard to tell which version would be better. Their Zzzaps plus Curse Stones plus BFs plus Ces. Crystals would make this a very hard match. Dugtrio might be able to save your bench (at least, until they play a Ces. Crystal and Zzzap the same turn).

    Metanite: They CAN reach 110 damage. Ho-oh would at least be able to OHKO their Metagrosses, but they will just OHKO you back (eventhough it may take a turn or two). Buffer Piece would help.

    Gardevoir d ex (yes, it'scoming): They place 1 Seal Marker and defeat everything you setup for. Since there's no way(I can see) that you're going to OHKO them, each Gardevoir will put AT LEAST 2 Seal Markers in play. The only way you have a chance is with Tropius.

    Mewtrick:

    Luarock:


    Basically, you lose to anything with power denial or bench damage. If you're looking for ideas, here's a list of what I proposed,andsome other ideas I didn't get to.

    Buffer Piece
    Dugtrio
    Ho-oh > Ray aslong as you can get the right energies on him.
    Tropius




    I g2g. Will edit or add more later.

    ttyl.

    See? There you go. Edit out your *sigh* and you've got a constructive post free of negative attitude and contentiousness, which is all we're really looking for here on the boards. Much more helpful and bridge-building than the first one. You learn quickly! (for the relevant issue, do refer back to the forum rules for this section, particularly: "Replys must provide HELP or STRATEGY with a positive tone for the deck under discussion. Posts that bash the author or the deck will be deleted. Posts that feature a rating or an evaluation of the decks chance of success will be deleted." Do read the more in-depth version of the rules for examples of this type of post.)

    Houou: Yup. Giant stump is an issue. So's an opponent's crawdaunt -ex. In fact, there's alot of stuff out there right now that hurts this deck, but a deck with certain matchup problems isn't anything new to the format. I do appreciate input on any counters you might have to the problems you mention. Rest assured, all, I'm aware of other cards in the format that might come up to throw the old sabot into my cogs. What I'm looking for is the "help and strategy" to get around them.

    Moza: Link me up. I'd love to take a look.
    Last edited by Dendrobatida; 10/12/2006 at 07:17 AM.
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  14. #14
    Very interesting Jake. Ray ex d should provide you with an INFINITELY better attacker option next set.
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  15. #15
    Cloyster d. will keep your benched delta pokes from takin damage. cuz i see a sniped out Fearow FTW
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  16. #16
    won't this be having problems with rai/eggs with zaaping?

  17. #17
    Prime, based on the translation I'm reading, Rayquaza reduces its costs by (C), not removes all (C) from its costs.

    So it would cost LLC to do 70, not LL.
    I'm lost, scared and confused.

    11337

  18. #18
    That's only if you're down on prizes, I think you can depend on having prize advantage for most of the game with something like this. Still, I haven't seen a better basic attacker than ray d ex for this. Ho oh just looks like it'll take too long to build.

    No holon castform? I think you can afford a couple prizes early on.
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  19. #19
    Jake, you never tackled any of F_S's points lol. I'm curious as to see how you would deal in those matchups, especially Delta.
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  20. #20
    He indicated that he'd edit his post or add more later. I figured I'd wait until he was finished before tackling his suggestions.
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  21. #21
    Feature Editor Flaming_Spinach's Avatar
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    Sorry. I was at school all day.


    Re-post with edits enclosed:


    The fix depends on what type of deck becomes big in your area.


    Maganium-Steelix: Ho-oh would definatelly be the better choice. Ray d ex is resisted too hardcore by Steelix to be any good. If you play Ray, they will simply send up a Steelix and snipe your Fearows and Pidgeots until you have nothing left to prevent the 2HKO on your Ray. Agro Hooh is the only real chance you have. Dugtrio's a possibility.

    Raieggs: Hard to tell which version would be better. Their Zzzaps plus Curse Stones plus BFs plus Ces. Crystals would make this a very hard match. Dugtrio might be able to save your bench (at least, until they play a Ces. Crystal and Zzzap the same turn).

    Metanite: They CAN reach 110 damage. Ho-oh would at least be able to OHKO their Metagrosses, but they will just OHKO you back (eventhough it may take a turn or two). Buffer Piece would help.

    Gardevoir d ex (yes, it'scoming): They place 1 Seal Marker and defeat everything you setup for. Since there's no way(I can see) that you're going to OHKO them, each Gardevoir will put AT LEAST 2 Seal Markers in play. The only way you have a chance is with Tropius.

    Mewtrick: They can trap a stadium in play. Ruins runs through you, and BF stops your Pidgeots and Amphy DFs. You can 2HKO Mews, but Manectric is very hard for you to deal with. Tauros gets rid of the stadium lock.

    Lunarock: Depends on what stadium they play. They can play BF and Stone, which hurt you, but they have no way to lock them into play. If you can play around the stadiums, they still shut off your Pidgeots power. Space Center can help you.

    Flariados: Hard to tell. They can OHKO your main guys (whatever you use) if you flip a tails with Full Flame in play, or Spider Trap a Pelliper and make things hard for you. Here's another deck that plays BF. I'm not sure what can help with this one.

    Basically, you lose to anything with power denial or bench damage. If you're looking for ideas, here's a list of what I proposed, andsome other ideas I didn't get to.

    Buffer Piece
    Dugtrio
    Tropius
    Tauros
    Space Center
    Ho-oh > Ray aslong as you can get the right energies on him.


    As I said, it's too delicate. Anything that shuts down any 1 of your cards shuts down EVERY one of your cards because you need ALL of them to make the whole deck work.


    I look forward to your refutations!
    Last edited by Flaming_Spinach; 10/13/2006 at 01:56 AM.
    Pseudo-retired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokepop
    Pokemon Catcher has already destroyed evolution decks.
    Some people just haven't realized it yet.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek
    Prime, based on the translation I'm reading, Rayquaza reduces its costs by (C), not removes all (C) from its costs.

    So it would cost LLC to do 70, not LL.
    There was actually an english scan of Rayquaza EX d on ZEO, let me find it:
    http://www.sugarshock.net/zeo/mvt/ff_rayquaza.jpg

    There you go. "Ignore all C energy needed to use..."

    On the topic of authenticity, I trust that it's correct.

  23. #23
    I agree with FS, at the deck's current state- a gardevoir D would CRUSH this deck. Cessation Crystal also binds the deck up a lot (4 Windstorm is nice, but you might get locked up with a C Crystal and not have a way to counter it for a turn and get hurt big).
    Bench killing (in the form of Megalix, or Delta, or even Lunasol sniping) will hurt the deck too. Giant Stump could really hurt if used in a good combo.

    Has anyone brought up Shiftry? You have to use every power you have every turn. You also don't have a fighting or grass pokemon... The deck is also pretty slow and cumbersome. Shiftry can also snipe the bench. I see you having a huge problem against shiftry. All your pokemon take 20 a few times (Fearow can only take using its power three times... and you don't have infinite Brineys). Shiftry sniping would kill this deck. Use a power once and both Fearow, Mewtwo, and Pelipper are in range for OHKO. With a jolteon ex, you could be verrrry hurt. Jolteon ex+Shiftry=60 damage. If you already got hit for 20 by using his power, Pidgeot has 20 hp left. He's not useless, because he will die upon usage.
    Shiftry will see play, and it will hurt you a great deal.

    The deck is very frail and vulnerbale to prize issues. Against Megalix, if any pokemon is Prized and sniped, you're virtually at a loss. If they snipe your pidgeot twice, it will crush you. Snipe a Pidgeot and have one prized and it's even worse.

    Just about every big archetype will have an answer to this deck somewhere.
    Ludi- Crystal Shard OHKO all your energy. Shut down.
    Delta-Energy Root to make sure you have to 2HKO. Zzzzap the bench a few times and you're going down hard.
    Flariados-Trapping a Pelipper (like FS said) will hurt you big.
    Gardy D-A few turns of it's power and it's pretty much game. Click one on the Pidgeot P2 or the Pelipper one turn, and the other the next, or two of the same kind... Without a Tropius, you're stuck in a rut.
    Metanite-They can do the OHKO. Give it a few turns of sacrificing Castforms and they can take you down. You're also dangerously weak to Lightning, so if they manage to Reversal a Pelipper or Fearow or Pidgeot early and kill it, and if the counterparts are prized, you're stuck.
    Shiftry-The deck inherently counters this.

    This seems like a metagame deck to me.
    If you know what you're expecting, you can tech the deck accordingly and make the matchups better. At a league or CC or GC, this might work extremely well. However, come a big tournament with a lot of decks and possibilities, and it will get harder. The deck is also prone to bad luck. It's hard to set up, and bad prizes could kill you, as could a bad matchup here or there. As it is, almost every deck that is probably going to be an archetype has an easy time with you (delta, metanite, Gardy ex...)
    r

  24. #24
    Flamin' Spinach:

    Thanks for the in-depthyness! Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to give you the refutations you crave, because at its core, this is a powers-based deck...A powers-reliant deck...and it's a complicated combination. Thus, it is as fragile as you suggest. I have no "Ha-ha, my deck is perfect, because you failed to consider THIS! --------->" for you. Rai-eggs is a horrible matchup. Anything that shuts down powers is a horrible matchup - that's just the nature of this deck. In fact, that was one of the primary reasons why I questioned the viability of this deck for competitive play ("Competitive? We'll see.") in my initial post. Let me reiterate my reason for building it and intending to play with it: it looks like fun to me. And my reason for posting it: to get help with the execution of the deck. We usually reserve a matchups section for archetype sorts of decks, or tested decks. I feel like doing a complete matchups section is sort of like seeing if the sharks can penetrate your diving cage before you test whether or not it rusts...I'm asking for help with the deck itself, the main engine of it and the cards that make it work, and you want me to think about four or five steps ahead of that - remember, I'm not putting this little deck out there as a potential archetype, or trying to get it stickied as a feature article. I'm trying to get help with it....

    That being said, I also realize that your analysis of matchups is not necessarily done in order to bash my deck, or its concept. You're asking me to consider it IN a competitive format, even if it might not be my intent to play it regularly there. I dig that. In a way, it's flattering, because it indicates that you expect me to be doing most of my play at a high competitive level...or, at least, that's the way I'm gonna choose to interpret it, because it does wonders for my ego that way. Unfortunately, it might also mean that I can't just post for-fun decks and expect less scrutiny and more help. Scrutiny ain't always bad, though. So matchups...Since I still lack the cards, the best I've been able to do is simulate setups with the second version (the first, legal now, is fun to play, but pans out as you might think...stalls a bit when you have to make a choice between picking up the mewtwo or the rayquaza), and not run intense matchup comparisons. Still, lemme see if I can come up with how I'd play the decks you've listed, bearing in mind that none of this is supported by playtesting.

    Meganium-'nstuff: Meganium as an active isn't scary. Groudon isn't scary. Kyogre is, and so is steelix -ex. Dugtrio would prevent the bench damage, but as you've likely ascertained, there ain't much room for a dugtrio on your bench. I agree that ho-oh is the most viable option that I've found. The bench damage makes it a tougher matchup. One distinct possibility might be the inclusion of several holon energy and a tech delta pidgeot, to shut down powers other than mine. With the delta ampharos in play, my own pop2 pidgeot would still work. However, that's another bench slot to consider...

    Raieggs: If it was a really hard matchup for blastoise, it's going to be hard for this deck too. The windstorms will help, as will liberal amounts of shuffling in with pidgeot. I'd be more inclined to try a splashable basic fighting pokemon to address the raichus and weakness. Not much comes to mind - it'd have to be able to withstand a shot for 90 from a scramble'd raichu after taking the first down. If I ran a few holon's castform, or other pokes, once the cessation crystal was gone I could fearow for them, effectively being able to power a groudon or regirock of some sort. Hitmontop is the only basic fighting pokemon with a completely splashable attack that can ohko a raichu, and it's bleh. But yes, this is no doubt a difficult matchup. I run several pokes resistant to exeggcutor, so I don't fear that as much, but then again, who does?

    Metanite: Here I'd be looking to exploit weaknesses as well (dragonite is horribly weak to ampharos and pidgeot, metagross to ho-oh, should I go that way). The fact that it can reach 110 damage is an issue, since the deck doesn't have much space to run buffer pieces. But what deck doesn't have issues with an opponent being able to do 110 damage a turn?

    Gardevoir ex d: Another pokemon that gives anything with powers problems. POP2 pidgeot can help, and I'd probably be looking to get both in play, so that I could continually cycle out things that had seal markers on them. The delta pidgeot tech would help here, too.

    Mewtrick: Another place where the fighting pokemon would help. Or a psychic pokemon. As I'm writing these, I'm wondering - do folks do this to all decks people post? What deck posted in the last 30 or so posts would withstand a listing of ten or so other decks that give it problems? Or are you just suggesting that this deck isn't good for the current format? Maybe that's why the rules suggest people shouldn't post "This deck loses to...." type posts...it keeps focus off the deck itself and improving it, and redirects it into yet another conversation about the metagame. Does anyone just build a deck that looks like fun and take it to league anymore? Why can't I? Woe is me! Anyway, back on track. I'd definitely keep my energy well-spread out, so that once a benched pokemon took a shot I wouldn't lose all of it in one go. That way I can manage better. Fearow helps, because I can evolve without dealing with rare candies, and it allows my flaafies to evolve, because fearow would be a better choice to snipe.

    Lunarock: I'd definitely use rayquaza to snipe off the ones that shut off pidgeot. Since they'd have a tough time ohko'ing my main attackers, I'd ignore the pidgeot in the early stages and just go aggro until I found a window of opportunity.

    Flariados: They'd have to focus on pelipper, I'd imagine (Again, remember, I haven't tournament tested any of this...I was mostly looking for input on the deck itself, rather than matchup issues, which I probably would have shared after I'm able to build it and test it). While they focused on pelipper, I'd see what I could do about using rayquaza to harrass benched flareons, or ohko'ing ariadoses if I'm down on prizes. I'd particularly go for getting two pelipper out at once, since that would effectively nullify spider trap's effectiveness.

    Tauros is a nifty idea, particularly since I'd be able to use it, essentially, infinitely. It'd also make a nifty starter. There's gotta be room for it somewhere.

    Again, sorry for the lack of refutations. I didn't do a matchups section in my initial post because, frankly, I'm not there yet with the deck. You may have been looking for a more argumentative sort of back-and-forth, but I'm not ready to give it to you yet, since I'm still in the building phase with this one. The mental exercise was fun, though.

    And remember, kids, just because your deck might have a tough matchup with other decks, doesn't make it any less fun or rewarding to play (I'd argue it makes it more fun). If every player were afraid of the metagame, we'd all be playing the same deck.

    EDIT: I just read every thread on the front page of the deck help/strategy forum...this is the only one among all of them where the creator has been asked to address matchups, rather than been given help with the content of the deck. I must be special! That, or competent enough to not need input on the pokemon ratios, the draw engine, the energy allotment. Any tweaks on those? Are rare candy necessary in the second version, with spearows to fetch the evos, given that the stage 2's can't attack on t2 anyway without special energy? Should I drop the candies for tauros? Any suggestions like that?
    Last edited by Dendrobatida; 10/13/2006 at 09:45 AM.
    Den-droh-bah-tih-duh. Stress on the bah.

  25. #25
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    "Gardevoir ex d: Another pokemon that gives anything with powers problems. POP2 pidgeot can help, and I'd probably be looking to get both in play, so that I could continually cycle out things that had seal markers on them. The delta pidgeot tech would help here, too."

    Gardevior is delta itself, so delta Pidgeot would not shut it down.

    I wish I could contribute more to the idea.

    On the subject of being critiqued with matchups, I feel the reason is because people know what you've done in the past with winning tournaments and stuff. So people expect great things from you, which I guess can be taken as a compliment. The game has lost a lot of the fun factor and added more serious competitive factor in it's place. Less and less people have fun at league. So when they see a deck idea from you or any other acclaimed player, they tend to take it very seriously disregarding much of the original idea of the game, playing for fun. Just my honest opinion though.

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