Current Format

[Sweet]

What are peoples thoughts on it?

The problems I see -

Mewtwo EX is essential in any deck other than Durant. You'll either need 2-3 depending on if you run CMT or not. They're expensive.

Durant takes no skill. People can find the lists online with websites like 6 prizes underground. It's either the 3rd or 4th best deck.

Going first is too good.

Pokemon Catcher is too good.

Basic decks are the only playable decks.

EDIT:

Another problem, the lack of techs. There's never any really surprises that can come into play in games. You always know what's coming.

[cabd]

Originally Posted by Sweet

What are peoples thoughts on it?

The problems I see -

Mewtwo EX is essential in any deck other than Durant. You'll either need 2-3 depending on if you run CMT or not. They're expensive.

So just like Luxray Gl. Lv. X, then? If you cannot afford mewtwo, Messiemew is another viable option.

Durant takes no skill. People can find the lists online. It's either the 3rd or 4th best deck.

No, Durant takes more skill than you think. Knowing when to change gears, knowing when board control is better than the revive, etc.

Going first is too good.

Agreed. However, Japan printing First Ticket means they see no issue with it, so don't expect that to change any time soon.

Pokemon Catcher is too good.

Disagree. It just took the coin flip luck out of Pokemon Reversal. Now, if reversal was banned, then I could see an argument for getting rid of it.
Basic decks are the only playable decks.
Not entirely true. Vileplume decks still exist, tyram won a states, etc. They're just not as popular anymore.

Replies in Green.

[Sweet]

Originally Posted by cabd

Replies in Green.

Mewtwo counters itself, Luxray doesn't. Most decks that run Luxray ran 1, not 2 like Mewtwo. Machamp/Vilegar/Donphan etc could counter it, Mewtwo's only good counter is itself. Messiemew isn't that good.

Durant doesn't takes little skill then, but compared to Zekeel's, huge difference.

I completely agree - Pokemon Reversal was horrible with the flips, so they should ban both.

Stage 2's can be inconsistent, and get ripped to shreds by Pokemon Catcher and Mewtwo EX etc Tyram is really average, same with Vileplume varients. Why aren't they as popular...? Because they're bad. Surely if Mewtwo EX is so expensive, then stage 2 decks will be more popular?

[baby mario]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Mewtwo counters itself, Luxray doesn't. Most decks that run Luxray ran 1, not 2 like Mewtwo. Machamp/Vilegar/Donphan etc could counter it, Mewtwo's only good counter is itself.

Chomp C countered itsefl though. Many Luxchomp decks ran 2-2 Luxray (I know I did at various times). You say Champ/Vilegar /Donphan countered it . . . well, obviously not enough to prevent it being the dominant BDIF for a very long time (compare Mewtwo which has only been dominant for ONE set of tournaments).

Messiemew isn't that good.

It's ok. It's viable.

Durant doesn't takes little skill then, but compared to Zekeel's, huge difference.

Durant takes a bit more skill than people give it credit for, but it's hardly the first deck in the history of Pokemon to not require much skill. Shuppet Donk wasn't rocket science either . . . but it was a competitive deck.

I completely agree - Pokemon Reversal was horrible with the flips, so they should ban both.

Catcher makes certain decks and strategies a less attractive option. That doesn't make it bad.

Stage 2's can be inconsistent, and get ripped to shreds by Pokemon Catcher and Mewtwo EX etc Tyram is really average, same with Vileplume varients. Why aren't they as popular...? Because they're bad.

Yep, Stage 2s are dead for the moment. But a few months ago at CCs, they were dominating (Chandy, Zone, Typhlosion), and that was WITH Catcher in the format. Decks with multiple Stage 2s contested the final at Worlds. It all goes in cycles. Right now they aren't good to play. Sooner or later, they will be.

Surely if Mewtwo EX is so expensive, then stage 2 decks will be more popular?

If people really want to do well, they find a way to get Mewtwos. Just like they found a way to get Luxray LV X, or Lugia EX, or the massive amounts of EXs you needed for Absolutions etc.

[QD4U]

Durant takes skill to play. It may be "simple" in the sense that you really only use one attack the whole game, but it certainly does require skill. It also happens to be one of the worse "top" decks in the current format. It has a terrible Eels match-up and is easily donked by Celebi and friends. Definetely one of the harder decks to rack up wins with currently.

Pretty much agree with the other things you mentioned. I don't like the current format one bit. ZekEels mirrors everywhere, stage 2 decks are dead, yeah you already mentioned that but still. Patiently waiting for new sets to be released, maybe then I can start enjoying playing the game again.

[Raen]

I didn't read this thread, because I didn't want to sway my opinion.

Which, by the way, is "I like our format."

[Deoxys Cool Form]

I like this format a lot, I think the next set will make it much better though. Cards like Raikou EX, Groudon EX, Darkness etc will spice it up for sure.

[Sweet]

Durant doesn't have enough skill to deserve a place in a skill based format.

Garchomp C Lv.X was fine countering itself - unlike Mewtwo, it was difficult to fit into any deck, and it was cheap from being made into a tin.

2-2 Luxray was played to counter Vilegar; so decks like Vilegar & Machamp must have been scary enough to change decks.

Shuppet was so bad for the format - I'm not saying last format was perfect either, I just think it was much better.

Pokemon Catcher prevents so much more variety, something this format lacks.

Raen - why?

deoxys - why? I agree/hope so, it looks promising.

[machampion12]

Well at least mewtwo cant be played like a catcher like Luxray.

[baby mario]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Durant doesn't have enough skill to deserve a place in a skill based format.

Matter of opinion. If you don't want to play Durant . . . then play something that you think is more skillful. Just because you don't like a deck or a card, doesn't make it 'bad for the format (this is a mistake that a lot of people make).

Garchomp C Lv.X was fine countering itself - unlike Mewtwo, it was difficult to fit into any deck, and it was cheap from being made into a tin.

Cost is completely irrelevant. A card isn't bad for the game because it is expensive. Another mistake a lot of people make.

2-2 Luxray was played to counter Vilegar; so decks like Vilegar & Machamp must have been scary enough to change decks.

There were lots of reasons why people played 2-2 Luxray (eg: because a Chomp start was prefered to a Lux start). If Machamp was that scary, how come Psychic Toxicroak G didn't get played that much?

Shuppet was so bad for the format - I'm not saying last format was perfect either, I just think it was much better.

I liked last format better as well. But things change and good players adapt.

Pokemon Catcher prevents so much more variety, something this format lacks.

Really? I don't remember it preventing variety during City Championships, where tournaments were won by Chandy, Magnezone, Reshiphlosion, ZPST, 6 Corners, Durant, CaKE, Truth variants, Donphan/Dragons . . . and a whole lot more.

That's just a lazy cliche you are bringing out there,

[jjkkl]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Durant doesn't have enough skill to deserve a place in a skill based format.

In this format, Durant arguably requires more skill than any other deck to succeed, since you need to figure out your opponent's counter-Durant strategy and counter that. Aside from that, your comment is a value judgment, and therefore isn't very compelling.

Originally Posted by Sweet

Garchomp C Lv.X was fine countering itself - unlike Mewtwo, it was difficult to fit into any deck, and it was cheap from being made into a tin.

I'll give you the cheap part, since that's what it handy. But the former is totally wrong. Garchomp was in A LOT of decks. Dialgachomp, Sablelock, and Gengar/Garchomp are all examples of decks running the Garchomp C line. It was pretty easy to put into a deck.

Originally Posted by Sweet

2-2 Luxray was played to counter Vilegar; so decks like Vilegar & Machamp must have been scary enough to change decks.

Huh. I thought it was because getting a prized Luxray GL Lvl. X and getting Sprayed on a Time Walk meant losing the game.

Originally Posted by Sweet

Shuppet was so bad for the format - I'm not saying last format was perfect either, I just think it was much better.

How so? Shuppet didn't distort the format in any way. I didn't recall seeing any Shuppet plagues going about, messing up people's games.

Originally Posted by Sweet

Pokemon Catcher prevents so much more variety, something this format lacks.

Variety, as I regularly argue, is a weak argument for the healthiness of a format. Tons of people like the Gardevoir/Gallade format, and yet it ended up being a 1-3 deck format. I'm not going to defend or disparage Catcher, but to argue against it out of variety isn't sufficient because every format we hit a singularity.

Originally Posted by Sweet

deoxys - why? I agree/hope so, it looks promising.

Why does it look promising? It's more large Basics, which seems sort of incongruous with your argument.

[Raen]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Raen - why?

If you've read anything I've posted in the last month you would know my thinking, but I suppose I can reiterate.

My taste or distaste for a format is almost entirely related to the importance of player skill. Last year was fantastic for that; SP mirror's were incredibly skill based, and so were most of the other matchups. Deck building mattered a lot, and it was fun.

However, with the B&W rule change fiasco, that format quickly became TERRIBLE. Spring BRs were fairly lucky based and, while I still enjoyed the game, I was glad for a rotation.

That rotation didn't help all that much though. Nats/Worlds were awful in the luck department. Skill seemed at an all time low and donks and poor starts were determining winners, not player skill in and out of game. Fall BRs/Regs weren't much better.

Cities were fantastic; there was a lot of skill involved in both deck building and in-game play, and I had a lot of fun with it. We also had a nice range of competative decks which was nice, but not necessary to the format being fun. I would have enjoyed it regardless.

This brings us to now and, again, I feel player skill is very important at the moment, ESPECIALLY due to Mewtwo EX which I find to be a very punishing card when played at inappropriate times. Game are won or lost based on when you bench a Mewtwo. It is a very, very decision-making intensive format, where small mistakes lose you games. This is something I love; I can't tell you how many improbable games I've won or seen won where the winner was chosen purely based on an opponent's misplay with a Mewtwo EX. This format is not forgiving of mistakes and as such I find it a very skill based format, which I enjoy.

Of course, donks still exists, and you can still lose due to poor starts, but that's kinda just a universal aspect of Pokemon; luck is always a factor, but what matter is how much of a factor it is. I don't find it too pervasive right now, and I'm enjoying the format quite a bit.

Of course, I think I'll like the Nats format even more, but that's a different discussion entirely!

[ShadowGuard]

Originally Posted by cabd

No, Durant takes more skill than you think. Knowing when to change gears, knowing when board control is better than the revive, etc.

I've seen players making masters semifinals at Regionals with Durant without even knowing what Mewtwo EX does before the tournament. And yes, there also were good players at the tournament. If that isn't a proof that Durant takes no skill, what else do you need?

Originally Posted by Raen

Cities were fantastic; there was a lot of skill involved in both deck building and in-game play, and I had a lot of fun with it. We also had a nice range of competative decks which was nice, but not necessary to the format being fun. I would have enjoyed it regardless.

I agree that HS-NV was the best format we got in this season. Too bad CCs lost importance this year. =/

Originally Posted by Raen

Of course, donks still exists, and you can still lose due to poor starts, but that's kinda just a universal aspect of Pokemon;

You didn't play in the EX / delta seasons, did you? There were almost no donks, and thanks to the Holon Engine, bad starts were very rare in a well-built deck. And even if you got a slow starts, there weren't decks that rushed you from T1 on. There were lots of competitive, skill-based cards, you could make so many decks run.

Originally Posted by Sweet

Pokemon Catcher prevents so much more variety, something this format lacks.

This format is based on Catcher. That may not be good, but you can't just ban Catcher. Other cards, like Reuniclus, would instantly become broken (well, at least, before Raikou EX hits the field). However I agree it's too strong, but maybe Junk Arm will be rotated soon, making Catcher a lot more balanced then.


The format right isn't the best, no doubt. But looking at the upcoming sets, I think it will get better. Both Dark Explorer and the dragon sets have some interesting cards that hurt Mewtwo EX. Dark Explorers may give non-Vileplume evolution a chance again (Empoleon etc). The dragon set has some interesting skill cards.

[Miamisportsfan45]

Originally Posted by ShadowGuard

I've seen players making masters semifinals at Regionals with Durant without even knowing what Mewtwo EX does before the tournament. And yes, there also were good players at the tournament. If that isn't a proof that Durant takes no skill, what else do you need?

I can't stand Durant just as much as the next guy. But in all honesty, Durant requires a lot of skill. More skill than people realize. I've encountered the same particular moments too, having to do with Durant players and Mewtwo EX, but they didn't manage to top cut. Actually, I believe they finished even.

Maybe it's just the area you're playing in that's giving you this misconception?

Making a Durant decklist isn't as easy as it seems though. With all decks, you need to know your matchups. A good portion of luck comes into any game because again, this is a TCG. All TCG's and/or games in general have to do with some kind of luck.

Needless to say that Durant requires skill because it's clearly strategy based and netdecking a list doesn't exactly make the list. There's tons of option and variety to change things up a bit for individuality and every minor tweak makes a drastic difference. That one card tech you used makes a major difference regardless of whether it's a fighting Pokemon to counter Zekrom or a staple to counter Durant. The way you play makes a huge difference and so does the list. Resulting in individuality. Just thought I'd put that out there to open this response up a bit.

I agree that HS-NV was the best format we got in this season. Too bad CCs lost importance this year. =/

I'll agree with you on how the early season looked too... bland. But again, we had to just make do with what we had and make a competitive scenario of what was modified at the time. There were more variety than was to be expected too, afterall and great players enjoy the challenge that early in the season presented us.

You didn't play in the EX / delta seasons, did you? There were almost no donks, and thanks to the Holon Engine, bad starts were very rare in a well-built deck. And even if you got a slow starts, there weren't decks that rushed you from T1 on. There were lots of competitive, skill-based cards, you could make so many decks run.

Regardless of whether the person this was intended for did or not, I did play at that point in time and I top cut frequently. The early stages of ex, just like right now for instance, had many donks. If I recall correctly, rare candy was allowed on the first turn. Wasn't Quick Search Pidgeot in the early ex format?

This format is based on Catcher. That may not be good, but you can't just ban Catcher. Other cards, like Reuniclus, would instantly become broken (well, at least, before Raikou EX hits the field). However I agree it's too strong, but maybe Junk Arm will be rotated soon, making Catcher a lot more balanced then.

Correction. This format is dominated by Junk Arm and dependable on and feared by Catcher. You'll see and be surprised by how much of a difference it makes after a HGSS rotation occurs. Once Twins, Lost Remover, Junk Arm, and a few other notable cards are gone, you'll see. Trust me.

The format right isn't the best, no doubt. But looking at the upcoming sets, I think it will get better. Both Dark Explorer and the dragon sets have some interesting cards that hurt Mewtwo EX. Dark Explorers may give non-Vileplume evolution a chance again (Empoleon etc). The dragon set has some interesting skill cards.

I agreed with you up until the Dragon set comment.

Replied back in blue.

[ShadowGuard]

Originally Posted by Miamisportsfan45

I can't stand Durant just as much as the next guy. But in all honesty, Durant requires a lot of skill. More skill than people realize. I've encountered the same particular moments too, having to do with Durant players and Mewtwo EX, but they didn't manage to top cut. Actually, I believe they finished even.

The players probably didn't get enough luck.
And no, its not a matter of area. As I said, there were skilled players, like last year's European Champion etc. Some of them lost to Durant because of bad openings and lucky flips of the Durant player.

Originally Posted by Miamisportsfan45

Regardless of whether the person this was intended for did or not, I did play at that point in time and I top cut frequently. The early stages of ex, just like right now for instance, had many donks. If I recall correctly, rare candy was allowed on the first turn. Wasn't Quick Search Pidgeot in the early ex format?

Yes, T1 Rare Candy was allowed. Yes, Quick Search was in the format. But there were very few Pokémon that did donk-range (50+) damage on turn 1. Mainly because there weren't any Pokémon to do good damage for only one energy, and the only multi-energy were DRE (which reduced damage and couldn't be attached to basics and ex), Scramble (only if behind in prizes, so obviously not suitable for donks) and Holon's Pokémon (needed extra attachment). Oh yes, there also was Boost Energy which possibly could donk but very few decks played it.

Originally Posted by Miamisportsfan45

Correction. This format is dominated by Junk Arm and dependable on and feared by Catcher. You'll see and be surprised by how much of a difference it makes after a HGSS rotation occurs. Once Twins, Lost Remover, Junk Arm, and a few other notable cards are gone, you'll see. Trust me.

I know that the rotation of Junk Arm will change a lot. btw Lost Remover isn't that kind of problem since we get that new Hammer.

Originally Posted by nnaann

For me personally, the format was at it's worst point straight after the rotation, and the release of Next Destinies has been a huge step forward for the game. The introduction of EXs and the popularity of N have meant that players are punished for playing recklessly, and need to maintain their resources well in order to win a game. Decks like Zekrom/Eelektrik have multiple Pokemon which are able to attack, and it does take some skill to predict in advance which will be needed later on.

NV made the format better. ND didn't, not at all.
Mewtwo wars usually are decided by whether one player topdecks after the final N. Can't see the skill here. Of course, you can influence probability if you play well-thought, but that's all. In other formats, there were a lot of other skills involved, like making out-of-the-box-moves, using attacks of pre-evolutions (Flygon line!), thinking ahead to make safe plays, counting opponent's resources ect. And most important, the right use and prediction of techs like Dusknoir, Nidoqueen, or even 1-0-1 Machamp.

[SMP88]

Couldn't you have posted this in one of the other 4 topics that are debating this format?

For the record, I like the format. Cost is irrelevant when it comes to mewtwo and it takes quite a bit if skill to run any of the winning decks in this format. Knowing when to drop a mewtwo or what energy to discard with crushing hammer/lost remover takes some skill.

[Sweet]

Matter of opinion. If you don't want to play Durant . . . then play something that you think is more skillful. Just because you don't like a deck or a card, doesn't make it 'bad for the format (this is a mistake that a lot of people make).

Durant is 3rd on winning the most tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so why run the troll deck (I think that's the right name) if you can run Durant. It takes so much less skill, is so much cheaper, and has a better winning record? There's where I see the problem.

Cost is completely irrelevant. A card isn't bad for the game because it is expensive. Another mistake a lot of people make.

I've known/talked to a lot of yu-gi-oh players. They all said that the worst part to yu-gi-oh was cost. Many of them quit/changed to something else for this reason. At least yu-gi-oh as better prizes to make up for this.

There were lots of reasons why people played 2-2 Luxray (eg: because a Chomp start was prefered to a Lux start). If Machamp was that scary, how come Psychic Toxicroak G didn't get played that much?

I thought Luxray start was better? Turn 2 Bright Look, Healing Breath was pointless turn two etc because Toxicroak wrecked other match ups, and Uxie Lv.X and Lucario GL were already there.

Really? I don't remember it preventing variety during City Championships, where tournaments were won by Chandy, Magnezone, Reshiphlosion, ZPST, 6 Corners, Durant, CaKE, Truth variants, Donphan/Dragons . . . and a whole lot more.

I loved that part of the game, that was a variety right there!

For the record, I like the format. Cost is irrelevant when it comes to mewtwo and it takes quite a bit if skill to run any of the winning decks in this format. Knowing when to drop a mewtwo or what energy to discard with crushing hammer/lost remover takes some skill.

Mewtwo EX taking skill is fair enough. But if you're telling me that it takes skill to know what to Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer, you can't be that experienced in the game (sorry if that sounded harsh!)

In this format, Durant arguably requires more skill than any other deck to succeed, since you need to figure out your opponent's counter-Durant strategy and counter that. Aside from that, your comment is a value judgment, and therefore isn't very compelling.

You think Durant is the most skillful deck at the moment? Wow. Give me an example then.

I'll give you the cheap part, since that's what it handy. But the former is totally wrong. Garchomp was in A LOT of decks. Dialgachomp, Sablelock, and Gengar/Garchomp are all examples of decks running the Garchomp C line. It was pretty easy to put into a deck.

A LOT = 3 huh?

Gengar Garchomp was awful anyways.

Huh. I thought it was because getting a prized Luxray GL Lvl. X and getting Sprayed on a Time Walk meant losing the game.

1 in 10 games it will be prized. 1 in 2 games you'll be playing SP. Then there's the possibility of drawing it early on from a prize anyway. Do more statictics! Really worth it...? 3-1 Luxray was great for Gyarados.

How so? Shuppet didn't distort the format in any way. I didn't recall seeing any Shuppet plagues going about, messing up people's games.

It donked so much, that's why it was bad.

Variety, as I regularly argue, is a weak argument for the healthiness of a format. Tons of people like the Gardevoir/Gallade format, and yet it ended up being a 1-3 deck format. I'm not going to defend or disparage Catcher, but to argue against it out of variety isn't sufficient because every format we hit a singularity.

People hated the GG format?

Why does it look promising? It's more large Basics, which seems sort of incongruous with your argument.

Because there will be lots of testing to be done thus making things more fun.

[baby mario]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Durant is 3rd on winning the most tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so why run the troll deck (I think that's the right name) if you can run Durant. It takes so much less skill, is so much cheaper, and has a better winning record? There's where I see the problem.

Because you want the skill factor? Or not? It's up to you . . . no-one forces you to run Durant. Run Troll. Or Zek/Eels, or CMT . . . buy or trade for the cards you need. Simple.

I've known/talked to a lot of yu-gi-oh players. They all said that the worst part to yu-gi-oh was cost. Many of them quit/changed to something else for this reason. At least yu-gi-oh as better prizes to make up for this.

They were wrong. Cost is not the worst thing about YGO. Not by a long shot.

Cost has nothing to do with how good a format is, or how much skill is involved. I thought that was your point?

I thought Luxray start was better? Turn 2 Bright Look, Healing Breath was pointless turn two etc because Toxicroak wrecked other match ups, and Uxie Lv.X and Lucario GL were already there.

I'm not even sure what your point is about Luxchomp anymore.

I loved that part of the game, that was a variety right there!

Yes! Variety WITH CATCHER IN THE FORMAT . . . y'know, the card that you claimed 'prevents' variety

Mewtwo EX taking skill is fair enough. But if you're telling me that it takes skill to know what to Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer, you can't be that experienced in the game (sorry if that sounded harsh!)

No, it doesn't sound harsh, just a bit ignorant.

If you're telling me that there is nothing more to Durant than Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer then I will start to wonder about your experience.

[jjkkl]

Originally Posted by Sweet

You think Durant is the most skillful deck at the moment? Wow. Give me an example then.

Matthew Koo, Ontario Provincials, first place. Mel Miranda, British Columbia Provincials, 3rd place. Top Cutting with Durant takes a lot of skill, especially in the format we're working with right now.

A LOT = 3 huh?

Gengar Garchomp was awful anyways.

Strawman. I was using any example, and therefore it's no way indicative of the population sample I'm referring. I also recall Gengar C was played by Tommy Roberts, one of the highest ranking players in the UK during the SP era. Your value judgment has no bearing on the argument at hand and it not on topic.

1 in 10 games it will be prized. 1 in 2 games you'll be playing SP. Then there's the possibility of drawing it early on from a prize anyway. Do more statictics! Really worth it...? 3-1 Luxray was great for Gyarados.

You're implying a consistent distribution when certain metas can have a variety of different players and decks, thus skewing the cost-benefit relationship. In a format with more Luxchomps, it's much more important on a prize argument to have that 2-2 Luxray, because the chances of you getting Power Sprayed on a Time Walk goes up drastically. Be more mindful of tenuous relationships before you tell me to 'do more statistics'.

It donked so much, that's why it was bad.

So did Machamp. Machamp got complaints, but never distorted the format. What made Shuppet so special?

People hated the GG format?

Which people? Where? I don't see any more hate for the GG format than here, looking through Pokegym's older threads.

Replies in black. I don't appreciate your tone. It's obvious I should not have been involved in this thread.

[derpy]

Originally Posted by Sweet

What are peoples thoughts on it?

The problems I see -

Mewtwo EX is essential in any deck other than Durant. You'll either need 2-3 depending on if you run CMT or not. They're expensive.

Durant takes no skill. People can find the lists online with websites like 6 prizes underground. It's either the 3rd or 4th best deck.

Going first is too good.

Pokemon Catcher is too good.

Basic decks are the only playable decks.

correction catcher isn't too good reversal broke the format catcher made it less luck based but they came out with cards to balence out the format

[Miamisportsfan45]

Originally Posted by Sweet

What are peoples thoughts on it?

The problems I see are:

Mewtwo EX is essential in any deck other than Durant. You'll either need 2-3 depending on if you run CMT or not. They're expensive.

Again, I've been debating this on the 'gym constantly and frequently as of lately and I'll say it again. Firstly, this is only temporary. Once Dark Explorers is released, Mewtwo will see much less play. Trust me, it'll still see a lot of play - but it's play will drop to nearly half as much as it currently sees.

Secondly, there are many counters to Mewtwo than Mewtwo itself. People fail to realize that Mewtwo gives up two prizes following it's knock out. As long as you take down Mewtwo before you actually lose two non-EX or Legend Pokemon, you're in an even scenario. Not to mention, there's numerous of energy acceleration out there and there's numerous Pokemon with bulky HP as well as discard energy following there attack which decreases Mewtwo's damage output.

Regarding prices, when Yanmega and Magnezone were all seeing heavy play, these were up in the $45-60 market at one point in time to. They've dropped significantly since then as you can obviously see. When a card seems to be winning, the prices of the cards tend to be higher. This has also always been a part of our metagame and it will continue to be. Between card rarities, demand, popularity and how well it's doing along with a few other things to factor, this will also be something that will always be in the metagame. It's part of playing a TCG. This is just what keeps the boosters selling.

Lastly, all in all I have to state that Mewtwo is just another card bringing more strategy and competition to our current metagame.


Durant takes no skill. People can find the lists online with websites like 6 prizes underground. It's either the 3rd or 4th best deck.


Putting it simple, if Durant played no skill we wouldn't be seeing the same Durant players making top cut over other Durant users in the top lists.

In addition this statement I have to say that if you know your matchups and understand how to play, even a Durant mirror match shouldn't be too much of a challenge for you. Even T/S/S are considered techs and outsmarting your opponent by playing intelligently, strategically and being aware should get you by the matchup with an ounce of luck, which is another thing that will always be part of every card game.

Going first is too good.

This is most likely the statement that I agree with the most to be completely honest. This is a major advantage, but the truth is that this has always been an advantage in nearly every card game that's out there. If it's not an advantage to the player going first than it's an advantage to the player going second and nothing is gained either way. I don't see how this could be resolved over the years personally.

Pokemon Catcher is too good.

This card seems extremely broken but I think it's actually bringing a lot of strategy to the metagame. In my honest opinion, Junk Arm is making Catcher appear much more broken than it truly is. Along with the fact that basics can't be rare candied on the first turn like before and we're also dealing with large HP heavy hitting basic Pokemon.

When you think about it, we've always had it around in some way or another. Difference is, it came in different forms. Whether it was bench snipers, Pokemon Reversal, Gust of Wind, etc.

Differences here are that are format is always changing every year and it's because of this that our metagame grows and evolves, as do the players.

Lets take a quick look at this here;

Bench Snipers - We typically forsee this coming because it's usually not a basic. Though, when it has been a basic we typically can see the obstacle as a primary attacker within it's own deck. If it hasn't been a basic, assuming it wasn't strategically fit into it's own deck, the sniper consisted of either energy acceleration, first turn play evolution, or both. Needless to say, this has always been a huge comparison to the same drag to active concept as far as damage output strategy goes.

Pokemon Reversal - Has been around generally since FRLG, which was around the time that the original ex's were introduced. This concept brought an entirely different competitive aspect to the game, however, we have a coin flip to determine the active position rather than a guarantee. However, there was no Junk Arm to gain an unfair advantage point like there is now. I'd much rather prefer Junk Arm + Reversal than Junk Arm + Catcher for this reason. Not to mention, we've had Gust of Wind around before. Though, to my understanding this was during the release of Pokemon and long before the Power Creep had begun - regardless, we had a competitive TCG growing and a metagame established.

Gust of Wind - Been around since the very beginning of Pokemon. This was the exact version to Catcher. However, we had no supporters at this time and the power of supporters now were treated as trainers, or items then. Therefor, the metagame wasn't limited to the potential per turn. Despite the numbers of usable cards and the format being played then.

Basic decks are the only playable decks.

This is basically another thing I have to agree with you on - to an extent. This has brought a twisted strategy to our current metagame. Having to bench two basics to evolve to something that may or may not be OHKO'd by a basic Pokemon the following turn is just ridiculous. But it's the way our metagame is falling into the direction of. Hopefully this is only temporary as there's things hinting in the opposite direction of this as it is already. However, this still has it's own twisted strategies and benefits that help with the growth of the game. I personally can't say I agree with it or like it, but the strategy and metagame has evolved and grown to this now. All this does is make it more challenging for us and limited to our options unless/until something else happens to pop up. Regardless, there's still numerous strategies to be played, tested, discovered and above all else, there's a lot of variety and options for us to choose from.

Made my points and responses in blue. I tried to make my points as detailed and understanding as possible. I can't say I agree with you on everything, but all-in-all, our metagame is constantly changing and we're always changing with it. It's not something we necessarily have any right to complain about. Whether we like the way it is at the moment or not isn't something that matters. Fact is there's still strategy involved in the game and it's changed drastically to prevent it from being repetitive and to shape new concepts or focuses to the game itself.

[NoPoke]

Current Format: its HGSS-on isn't it?

Though at times it seems like Base all over again.

[psychup2034]

Originally Posted by NoPoke

Current Format: its HGSS-on isn't it?

Though at times it seems like Base all over again.

This might be intentional, as the parallel video games also seem like Red/Blue/Yellow all over again. (A Mewtwo as the BCIF? This is like 2000 all over again.) Brings back a lot of good memories. I like it!

[Sweet]

Because you want the skill factor? Or not? It's up to you . . . no-one forces you to run Durant. Run Troll. Or Zek/Eels, or CMT . . . buy or trade for the cards you need. Simple.

If you're looking to do well, more than have fun, which most people are, my point still stands. Would you much rather have a laugh at Nationals, or win?

They were wrong. Cost is not the worst thing about YGO. Not by a long shot.

Cost has nothing to do with how good a format is, or how much skill is involved. I thought that was your point?

What is the worst part then? These are people who compete in Yu-gi-oh tournaments and know stuff, do you? Cost doesn't affect much - but it's still a pain for poor players.

I'm not even sure what your point is about Luxchomp anymore.

That with Luxray you only needed 1, unlike 2-3 with Mewtwo EX

Yes! Variety WITH CATCHER IN THE FORMAT . . . y'know, the card that you claimed 'prevents' variety

That was because trainer lock was good. Now with Mewtwo, you have no chance of setting up a stage 2.

No, it doesn't sound harsh, just a bit ignorant.

If you're telling me that there is nothing more to Durant than Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer then I will start to wonder about your experience.

It's common sense, Durant is a no-brainer. Here's an example (I'll try my best!) -

You have a completely random person, never played Pokemon before but they know the basic rules. (I know, I know just read on)

You have 3 hours to teach them a deck, not the standard things like prizes, how many cards you draw, how many cards in a deck etc

Would you get more progress from a Durant deck or a Zekeel's deck?

correction catcher isn't too good reversal broke the format catcher made it less luck based but they came out with cards to balence out the

I hated Reversal flips as much as the next kid, but if it was good, why make an even better card when you could make some sort of counter?

Matthew Koo, Ontario Provincials, first place. Mel Miranda, British Columbia Provincials, 3rd place. Top Cutting with Durant takes a lot of skill, especially in the format we're working with right now.

I have no clue who those people are. Deck list wise MAYBE - but the best Durant lists usually (not always) have no techs.

Strawman. I was using any example, and therefore it's no way indicative of the population sample I'm referring. I also recall Gengar C was played by Tommy Roberts, one of the highest ranking players in the UK during the SP era. Your value judgment has no bearing on the argument at hand and it not on topic.

Gengar Garchomp did badly against the BDIF, Luxchomp... He avoided Luxchomp's to do well.

You're implying a consistent distribution when certain metas can have a variety of different players and decks, thus skewing the cost-benefit relationship. In a format with more Luxchomps, it's much more important on a prize argument to have that 2-2 Luxray, because the chances of you getting Power Sprayed on a Time Walk goes up drastically. Be more mindful of tenuous relationships before you tell me to 'do more statistics'.

I averaged it out, it's not perfect (obviously) but it's a pretty good guide seeing as you had Gyarados, Vilegar etc doing well too (not as good, but still) My statistic point still stands, it's a solid arguement.

So did Machamp. Machamp got complaints, but never distorted the format. What made Shuppet so special?

Shuppet donked more. Shuppet could donk if they had multiple basics.

Which people? Where? I don't see any more hate for the GG format than here, looking through Pokegym's older threads.

You bother to look through old Pokegym posts...? Anyways, people hated it. More people hated it than the more people who liked it.

Replies in black. I don't appreciate your tone. It's obvious I should not have been involved in this thread.

You get rattled by a Pokemon card debate online? It's a debate, people get rude to some extent. Professional debaters argue all the time, doesn't mean they aren't good at it. If you have no good come back, I don't blame you for trying to wriggle out of this thread.

[chrataxe]

For the love of colors...Durant takes no skill, lets get over it. Why do skilled players keep top cutting with it? Because they are more skilled than the other monkeys playing it. I promise you, Erik Nance (won second at NC w/Durant, if I remember correctly- the first "very skillfull" player I can think of that did good with it) will beat my son 9/10 times in either a Durant Mirror, and both trading off where Erik plays durant while my son plays something else, then then my son plays Durant while Erik plays something else. Erik win's because he is better. Erik is better than me too, but if I were to pick up Durant and do the same thing, it would look a lot more like 50/50-favorable. One could argue that Uxie donk took skill too, to know when you had to Dual Ball and grab a Unown R or a Crobat. I went 3-1 against durant this season, so I can't really complain, but the one I lost went like this: I'm playing Feraligatr/Kyurem/Zoroark. I start lone Kyurem. Normally, I would just go agro gatr, but can't with Kyurem start. So, I drop feraligatr and start spreading after a Raindance. I have 30 on Rotom and 60 on 4 Durants and about 40 cards left in my deck, to include a handful of water energy, a Super Rod, 2 DCE, 2 Switch, and 2 Junk Arm. I'm fully aware that the catcher is coming soon on my Feraligatr, but I'm not worried since I have many outs, which include retreating, attacking, or switching. Sure enough, he drops the catcher. In the next 3 turns, I watch 2 DCE, Super Rod, 2 Junk Arm, and 2 Switch go into the discard pile. My only out I had left was hitting 4 water energy and hoping for tails on crushing hammers. I see two water energies the rest of the game, not enough to retreat or attack. Not sure how skills becomes involved there. But, here's the worst part: had I actually taken 5 prizes on one turn like I was about to, he would have N'ed me to 1 Card, played 24 trainers to get all for Durants in play, catchered up my Feraligatr, then proceeded to do the same think. No, sorry, the deck takes no skill. Lets not confuse the deck skill level for the skill level of the player; a Skilled player can play a nonskillful deck and do better with it than a nonskillful player playing a nonskillful deck. Also, lets not confuse the skill needed to play a deck with the power of a deck. Decks CAN take zero skill and still be very powerful.

But, 2 things that really, really bug me right now is that the game play of the cards takes away from Pokemon the idea. The idea of Pokemon is that you take a a Pokemon into battle and over time, it becomes more powerful (level up, a la Level X) and evolves (a la Stage 1 and Stage 1). Unfortunately, this opportunity isn't there in this format. Truthfully, it wasn't really there last format either, but I liked the idea of SP: you could take the Pokemon of a Gym Leader and use them in battle without having to worry about evolving them during battle, which is how the gym leaders actually use their Pokemon. The difference between then and now is that we have basics that just don't do anything. But, more importantly than that, what does milling have to do with Pokemon? Oh, that's right, absolutely nothing. I don't have a problem with decking being a win condition, I have a problem with cards being printed that the point of them is to mill, like Durant and KGL. I have no problem with cards that discard here and there, but when the whole point is to force your opponent to lose by decking, that card has no place in a game like Pokemon....or ANY TCG, for that matter, since the whole point of the TCG you play is to SOMEWHAT emulate the title of the game and NO TCG has milling as part of its anime/video game/whatever. But, I digress...

As for the format, I'm not a fan. The Mewtwo war isn't as grand as everyone makes it out to be. In fact, its really simple: don't drop Mewtwo if you aren't in a position to win the Mewtwo war. If you have a Mewtwo in hand and a collector in hand, don't drop the Mewtwo first. Take away your opponents options, force them to drop first. The exchange goes one of a couple of ways: they drop for a KO (1), you drop for a revenge (2), they drop for a revenge (3), you drop for a revenge (4). Its not rocket science to see what kind of position you need to be in to start that exchange. If you drop first, you need to have taken three prizes. If you drop second, you need to be able to account for two prizes somehow, either before or after. Throw in a Super Rod, a Revive, some Junk Arms, and maybe even another Mewtwo if you can. Either way, the point is, there isn't as much skill involved as everyone says. Truth be told, there wasn't as much skill involved in the Garchomp war either, though I think an SP mirror was way more skillful than a Mewtwo varient mirror since Mewtwo gives up so many prizes and makes for a short game.

As for the rest of the Meta, I find it quite boring as well. Cities was awesome. Its not the limited number of decks that I find boring, its the fact that you can almost guess card for card someone's list. The conundrum it makes is that it makes it quite easy to guess what is coming next so you can counter it. But, the other part of the conundrum is that the decks are so powerful, there's not a lot you can do about it.