Fun UNLIMITED format - 150!

[TRAINER HEZ]

EDIT sample decklist here: http://ns0.pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163879
28/07/2012: "Damage Swap combo", Arceus rules updates and general tidy up.

[There's been several big rules updates since this thread first started as the format has got more and more popular and we've had more people to help test it. A big thank you to everyone who has helped!]

150 was created to be a fun and balanced version of Unlimited which use a 100 card singleton deck. It's great for anyone looking for a change from Modified or if you still want to use your rotated cards.
The official page is still on Facebook as Pokemon TCG 150. Since the first version we've developed a much smoother set of rules and a ban / "ex" list that balances the power level across most sets. It's been getting quite popular and a huge variety of deck types are showing themselves to be playable from aggressive beat-down to slow, stall and control types. Even some original cards are still good (Jungle Mr.Mime and Fossil Ditto are looking to be staples).

Deck building isn't as hard as it first appears, you'll soon find yourself cutting cards for those local-meta techs! If anybody would like to see some sample decks and strategies just let me know.
For those of you without Facebook here's the full rules (the more complex parts are in Errata/ Balance/ Bans):-

Basic Rules
* 150 is an alternative format for casual play. Almost any card, from any set, in any language is legal.
* This format uses a 100 card singleton deck. It can only contain 1 copy of any card, excluding Basic Energy cards which are unlimited. The usual restriction of a maximum of 4 for a type of Pokémon applies, e.g. your deck can contain 4 Bulbasaur but they must be from different sets (and not just reprints/alternate art etc.).
* Start by drawing 15 cards from your deck, select 8, shuffle them and place them face down as prize cards. The remaining 7 are your hand. From here set up as normal. We recommend pre-B&W rules, e.g. no Trainer cards can be played if you go first.

Errata / Balance / Bans
* Pokémon ex still yield 2 prizes when knocked out. Pokémon Prime and fully evolved cards printed in sets as B&W series holo rares (striped foil or higher rarity) also count as Pokémon ex. Pokémon LV.X and Pokémon Legend are treated as printed.
* The Black & White series Pokémon EX are banned.
* Abilities and Pokémon Powers are split into Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies in order to interact with other cards smoothly. If it requires activating (e.g. uses “you may”), it’s a Poke-Power. If the effect is static, it’s a Poke-Body. If a card mentions Abilities or Pokémon Powers (eg. “all Pokémon Powers cannot be used…”) this covers Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies.
* The non-Pokémon, non-Energy cards are Trainer, Supporter, Stadium. These cards are never two or more types (e.g. “Trainer – Supporter” cards count as Supporter cards, but not Trainers). The term Item is returned to simply Trainer. Cards are not given further errata depending on when they were printed e.g. Item Finder works as it is printed and cannot target a Supporter or Stadium.
* Fossils which are assigned to a specific Pokémon (such as Dome Fossil with Kabuto) count as Basic Fossils and 4 may be used in a deck. 4 Mysterious Fossils can also be used to evolve any Fossil Pokémon (including Revived Pokémon). For any other fossil cards (Holon Fossil, Buried Fossil etc.), only 1 of each can be used.
* For the purposes of evolving and levelling up only, the exact name of the Pokémon doesn’t matter. Things such as a trainer’s name or ‘Dark’ are ignored, e.g. Erika’s Oddish > Dark Gloom > Vileplume is a legal evolution line. If you level-up an ex it will still yield one extra prize.
* Pokémon SP are an exception to the evolving rule above and are treated as completely different Pokémon and can never evolve or level up into other versions of that Pokémon line. All Japanese “VS” cards count as Pokémon SP.
* You may use as many Arceus cards as you like in your deck.
* You cannot have Mismagius GL LV.X (Rising Rivals) / Porygon 2 (Unseen Forces) in the same deck as Alakazam (Base) / Reuniclus (Black & White). This includes reprints of these cards.

[CMsvW]

just wanted to say that I love this. I would love for this to become an actual recognized thing like Commander is in Magic

[TRAINER HEZ]

Thanks :} I've just got back from the local games shop, we were playing this all night, such good fun. Some Magic players doing FNM were getting interested too!
Commander started off as a fan made format, the only reason it got an official release was because it was made popular by the fans. So if you like it, tell your friends and tell people at League. The best way is to make 2 decks yourself and demo it to players. If you see anyone moan about Modified, point them this way!

[bullados]

You might want to talk to Jimmy about something like this. It seems like you two have similar thoughts on a new Unlimited format.

[TRAINER HEZ]

I had a look at Jimmy's "Battle Frontier" format, it's nice to know others are trying Unlimited play. We have actually played 150 in multiplayer using slightly altered Double Battle rules.
The main thing about 150 is that it's attempting to be both the simplest and most balanced version of Unlimited. We've tried hard not to insert rules where they're not totally necessary to keep it as simple as possible. The only part that might not suit this is 8 prizes, but players should feel free to alter their prize amount to suit the length of game they want.

[Unfallible]

Originally Posted by TRAINER HEZ

I had a look at Jimmy's "Battle Frontier" format, it's nice to know others are trying Unlimited play. We have actually played 150 in multiplayer using slightly altered Double Battle rules.
The main thing about 150 is that it's attempting to be both the simplest and most balanced version of Unlimited. We've tried hard not to insert rules where they're not totally necessary to keep it as simple as possible. The only part that might not suit this is 8 prizes, but players should feel free to alter their prize amount to suit the length of game they want.

Please don't take this as an insult (this is a great game), but many of your rules are unnecessary. For example, rules are already in place for card interaction involving pokemon powers/pokepowers/bodies/abilities. Forcing the player to break these up manually seems odd to me. Likewise, telling the player to treat BW-on holos as EXs is likewise arbitrary (at least to me). 150 may be the most balanced unlimited format, but Jimmy's is, IMO, much simpler.

[TRAINER HEZ]

I wasn't saying Jimmy's game has unnecessary rules, sorry if it sounded like that, it's a good way to play multiplayer which the official rules don't support.
As far as the Poke-power thing goes the rules already in place don't allow for true interactions between what are essentially the same mechanics with different names. For example, Dialga G Lv.X shuts down poke-bodies but doesn't affect static "Abilities" (such as say, Samurott's Shell Armor) in the official rules, where as most experienced players will instantly recognise it as a Poke-body effect that should interact with Dialga Gs effect.
The ex rule is arbitrary in some ways, a few of the B+W holos don't deserve it, but a blanket ruling was much simpler. The power creep occurred mainly at holo rarity in the B+W sets, they're equal or greater in power to most original exs, this ruling balances the power level across many years worth of sets so all of them become playable again. Unfortunatley we don't get the foil borders on our holos that the Japanese get, which would have made it a lot easier to spot.
Anyway, I hope that clears up where we're coming from with these ideas. We've been working on this for over a year now and this is the best way we can find to make the most of the huge cardpool that Unlimited gives us without obsoleting older cards through newer cards raw power level.

[SuperWooper]

The BW holo rule makes sense to me, but it doesn't stop Reshiram and Zekrom from being imbalanced. They have rare versions in Next Destinies.

[TRAINER HEZ]

The exact wording of that rule has been updated on the official page: "Cards printed in sets as Pokémon "Prime" and B&W series Holo Rares (striped foil or higher rarity) also count as Pokémon ex." This catches the non-holo reprints.

It's so good to play Resh and Zek as exs, you can FEEL the balance returning to the game :P I still run a Reshiram in my Blaziken deck... the Full art makes a fine ex and it still often sweeps a couple of Pokemon before going down.

[Unfallible]

Originally Posted by TRAINER HEZ

The exact wording of that rule has been updated on the official page: "Cards printed in sets as Pokémon "Prime" and B&W series Holo Rares (striped foil or higher rarity) also count as Pokémon ex." This catches the non-holo reprints.

It's so good to play Resh and Zek as exs, you can FEEL the balance returning to the game :P I still run a Reshiram in my Blaziken deck... the Full art makes a fine ex and it still often sweeps a couple of Pokemon before going down.

The rules makes sense, but it doesn't make the game any simpler. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the OP said that he valued simple rules. I don't think that the "Holo-rares are EXs rule helps with this." While it might make sense to treat the dragons as EXs, you would be hard-pressed to convince me that said ruling helps Braviary EP's cause.

[TRAINER HEZ]

I think Balance takes precedence over Simplicity in this format, as it's made for advanced players anyway. It's trying to get a good mix of Balance and Simplicity that's the challenge. Braviary EP doesn't deserve ex status, no (it's not even good as a regular) but the 2 dragons sure do and compared to past cards, so does Emboar for example. A specific "ex list" would be awfully hard to remember though, so a few cards like Braviary EP take the fall so the majority of the Holos get brought down to a more fair power level in a way that's easy to remember.

As the rules stand a player with mostly ex series and a player with mostly D&P series and another with mostly B&W series cards can all play against each other and be on fairly even ground.

As far as unessential rules go I was referring more to things like having a Commander Pokemon in the deck (similar to the popular MtG fan-made format). People should feel free to try things like this with 150, but we left it out of the official rules.

Anyway, thanks for showing some interest Unfallible, maybe give it a go (either with real cards or online) and see how it feels to you in practice. The more people we get testing it, maybe we can make it even better with everybodies suggestions.

[thunderjolt]

Where/what do you test a 100 card deck on the internet? Would playtcg.me support this, or redshark?

[TRAINER HEZ]

Playtcg won't support it, you can't pick cards outside Modified. Anything else like Redshark should be fine. I use LackeyCCG, it's a bit clunky but you get pictures which is nice when you may not be familiar with all the cards used.
Then there's always the old fashioned webcam/Skype method :P
Hope you give it a try, maybe a multi colour Eevee deck with Ho-Oh?

Also, I've added a sample decklist to the original post for anyone who missed it.

[Envoyofduels]

I tried a couple games of this last night and I have to say that I enjoyed it. I am planing on introducing this to my local league players as it will be a fresh new concept to change things up a bit. Also I do hope that this catches on by the time nationals rolls around so I can play new people in this @ league. ;)
Posted with Mobile style...

[hampuse1]

Originally Posted by TRAINER HEZ

ERRATA / BALANCE.
* Pokémon ex still yield 2 prizes when KO'd. Pokémon "Prime" and B&W series Holo Rares (striped foil) also count as Pokémon ex. Pokémon "LV.X" and Pokémon "Legend" are treated as normal. The new Pokémon "EX" are banned.

You could maybe rephrase this to: "Pokémon "Prime" and B&W series Holo Rares (striped foil) that can't evolve also count as Pokémon ex."

Would only make the Legendary pokemons EXs.

[TRAINER HEZ]

To Hampuse1: That is how we originally did it! The problem with this is most of the "Striped foils" are equal to the Primes in power (which are in turn equal to ex). It is true the Basic Legendary Pokemon in B&W are the most over powered, but the stage 1s and 2s get much more of a chance to shine in this, much slower format up to the point where they can equal or better the Basic Legendaries late game, even as exs. We'd rather not have to make these tweaks, but the power creep since HGSS has made it necessary, especially in the B&W sets.

To Envoyofduels: I'm really glad you've been having fun with it! Several people at my League have just straight up quit Modified recently due to the imbalance in recent set design, but just couldn't bring themselves to quit Pokemon 100%. They're all just playing 150 now and are loving the sheer depth of the usable (not just available, but Usable) card pool and the variety each game brings. Did you enjoy the new setup rules? Drawing your hand and prizes together means you can always make a decent start and your key cards don't get prized... it's like a mini-game in itself :}

Finally, if anyone does try this, feel free to try and break the game where ever you can! Only lots of testing can weed out some of the more degenerate combos, Eviolite and Mr.Mine (Jungle) for example can be nigh impossible to cope with in most circumstances, where as Mr.Mime is just a significant pest otherwise.
But, first and foremost, have fun with it! If your favourite Pokemon is uh... Dustox, go ahead and build a Dustox deck! I'm sure you can make it work ;)

[RogueListers]

Originally Posted by TRAINER HEZ

But, first and foremost, have fun with it! If your favourite Pokemon is uh... Dustox, go ahead and build a Dustox deck! I'm sure you can make it work ;)

My favorite Pokémon are Tyranitar and Sneasel, so I feel like I'd be copying you if I made a 150 with it :(

I guess I could make a Blastoise deck though, as almost every single one printed has energy acceleration built in... *Starts making a decklist*

Man, it's like building a rogue deck, you have so much fun doing so and feel so original :D

EDIT: So I've decided to make a fossil deck, but I'm kind of confused as to how it will work. Can I run, for instance, 4 Mysterious Fossil (MF) and 4 Old Amber (OA) and 4 Old Amber Aerodactyl (OAA)? Or 4 Mysterious/4 OA/1 OAA, or 4 MF/1 OA/1 OAA, or 4/OA+OAA=4, or 4/OA + OAA=1? Kabutops Arceus has an awesome attack I want to take advantage of, but it requires discarding one of a Helix, Dome or Old Amber. That could mean either 3 possible discards, 12 possible discards or 16 possible discards, depending on if OAA would work for it or if I can run 4 of each fossil.
As an addition to that last question, what about cards like Strange Cave and Fossil Egg? Can they put a Rampardos or Shieldon on the bench? Can I put DEX Aerodactyl on top of an Old Amber or Mysterious Fossil?

[TRAINER HEZ]

Hey RogueListers, I'm glad you're enjoying the deck building aspect. There's a girl at our League who uses fossils in a lockdown strategy, it's very mean!
Unfortunately, fossils have become one of the biggest rules problems for us because of how their rules have changed over the years!
*Your options for Aerodactyl are 4 MF and 4 OA or 4 MF and 4 OAA. You choose which Pokemon-specific fossil (or Basic fossil as we're calling them) to use and then you can use 4 Mysterious Fossil per deck on top of that, I'll talk to the team and aim to make this more clear.
*Any Aerodactyl can evolve (or be put into play) from any of the above fossil cards.
*As for Kaputops, it'd be 12 discards, just go with the actual names on the card.
*Fossil egg = yes, all fossil/revived Pokemon can evolve from Mysterious Fossil. Strange Cave = no, it specifically names certain cards again.
* Pokemon that evolve from Fossils and Revived Pokemon are terms that should be used interchangeably so the new and old cards interact in a sensible way. Twist Mountain works the way you want it to :P

Hope that's everything you needed to know, if there's anything else, please ask. When you've got a list together post it in the deck forum and I'll have a look...

One last thing: http://ns0.pokegym.net/gallery/showi...?i=49161&c=227 > http://ns0.pokegym.net/gallery/showi...?i=20360&c=133 > http://ns0.pokegym.net/gallery/showi...?i=34926&c=175.
Yeh, that's right. Turn 1 trainer lock and all you need is a Dome Fossil and a Fighting Energy ;)

[RapidashFTW]

Thankyou for coming up with this amazing format!!!
I just spent a couple of hours throwing together a deck, and it looks awesome!
One question though, why are you continuing to adhere to the 4 of rule? Surely it shouldn't matter, considering that we are already restricted to one of a card. TBH, all I really want is a format where I can make an all eevee deck, but no one will let me :(
I was wondering if there was any specific pokemon that the four of rule stops for being overpowered. If not, I suggest scrapping it all together, as there is no need for it. Pokemon TCG introduced it as a means to stop people playing an entire deck of overpowered cards, Mewtwo EX for example, but your format already has enough balance.

[TRAINER HEZ]

Hi, I'm glad people are enjoying it! We've just got an article on SixPrizes front page if you're interested! (see sig.)

Originally Posted by RapidashFTW

I was wondering if there was any specific pokemon that the four of rule stops for being overpowered

This point has come up before, but there's a few Pokemon that would get quite broken without the limit. The most obvious being Gyarados Stormfront (http://ns0.pokegym.net/gallery/showi...?i=41030&c=194). Being able to dump nigh-unlimited Magikarp and 1 hitting everything ever for free is quite nasty. There's others to a lesser extent like the various Beedrills.
As far as an Eevee deck goes, there is the "Max loophole" you can use to squeeze an extra Eevee in your deck. Lt.Surge's Eevee counts as a different Pokemon for deck deck building purposes but is allowed to evolve into any "Eeveelution". A 5-10 or even up to 5-12 line of Eevees would probably be fine, as you're using it's evolutions in a Toolbox manner, searching up the right one to evolve for each situation.

[RapidashFTW]

Ah, I see where you are coming from with the Gyrados thing. Good idea about the Eevee. Would Eevee δ count as a different one? Technically it has a different name.

[Unfallible]

Originally Posted by RapidashFTW

Ah, I see where you are coming from with the Gyrados thing. Good idea about the Eevee. Would Eevee δ count as a different one? Technically it has a different name.

Delta species has never counted as a different name. It simply denotes that the card is a different type than usual.

[TRAINER HEZ]

Unfallible is right, delta isn't part of it's name. You could squeeze more Eeveelutions in the deck though by using a Pokemon "Star" version and any SPs of them.
It's testing day again tomorrow and we're planning on doing another article for SixPrizes, are there any topics anyone would like covering? Let me know ASAP and we can research and test ideas for it over the next week or so. Perhaps tips on deck building?

[PMysterious]

This is a good idea. Well, time to build Rain Dance.

[RogueListers]

Here's a fossil deck for anyone wanting to see how they work :D
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread...76#post2274976


EDIT: Rulings question:
If I have Omanyte FO in play, and I use Persian HS's attack (or Hooligan's Jim & Cass or another card like that), can I choose from the face-up cards or will I have to close my eyes or something?

Omanyte
Pokemon Power: Clairvoyance
Your opponent plays with his or her hand face up. This power stops working when Omanyte is Asleep, Confused or Paralyzed

Persian HS
Sharpen Claws
Flip 3 coins. For each heads, discard a card from your opponent's hand without looking