Should we add another benefit to evolving? (If so, what)

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by tutti

What part did I miss? As far as I can tell, you explained that these cards would be out of the format and are irrelevant to your argument, then you pointed out my stupidity regarding Exp. Share, then you said a "no damage" rule would be too complicated for new players.

So if you understood my arguments about rotation then why bring up Energy Switch? You may as well point out that Neo Genesis Slowking really ruins my plans as well.

I said a "no damage" rule would be too complicated for new players and that we have already seen that this bothers TPC. It isn't just me trying to be picky, but pointing out that arguing for it is like arguing for full tournaments of best two of three: we've basically been told "no" already.

I will add that it feels like we are giving TPC another chance to make bad cards this way. Bad cards can be overpowered to me, they can be underpowered to me, and they can be technically balanced but horribly boring and serving no purpose in the game.

I fear an increase in the latter because of a "no damage first turn" rule; cards will keep being designed as is and while the format will hopefully improve, instead of filler because the format is broken we'll be getting more filler where the excuse is "we have to make cards like this". You may write that off as a "me" thing if you wish.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

I don't mean to offend, but I thought that no one knew exactly how the card designs were made. For all we know...

We don't know details. Obvious joke is obvious, but the message behind the joke is that they don't take care and if they don't... then they've misled the players thinking that they do. It isn't ever assumed that they randomly pick stuff, and that they do indeed play test and try to anticipate the format with their designs.

Don't worry, I am not going to make any claims that the current format does not require skill. I do wonder if skill would be higher in the game worked out I believe it should, but if the game were supposed to be exclusively about skill the rules would be radically, radically different.

I do argue that there are certain kinds of skill that are under or over utilized in the game. This can be most understood when someone tries to put forth arguments for a sideboard in Pokemon; Pokemon is not really designed for such a mechanic and when the game is properly run it really shouldn't be an issue. You cannot and should not have a "strong" match against every deck you face. It is the wrong part of the tournament structure being questions (again, these are my opinions).

And now for Ignatious...

Originally Posted by Ignatious

Again, I don't think there is a problem with our format. Stage 2s suck. Even a stage 2 as nuts as Magnezone isn't seeing play but that's perfectly fine. We have a great meta, creative deck construction, and skill intensive games. I think the skill of this format would rival the SP format, if the first turn rule would have some form of balance, that is.

This is what really removes you from the debate; you are very biased against Stage 2 Pokemon. When the game is properly balanced no Stage is inherently better or worse than others; the game has seldom every been properly balanced in this regard. You also enjoy a much faster game than many of us do. You are entitled to enjoy what you like, but can you not see what you're overlooking?

The things you don't like because you don't find them enjoyable to play are the things most of us normally find enjoyable to play but also are finding significantly underwhelming this format. You choose to love the format and blame this failing on the inherent design of the Evolution mechanic; we choose to love how the game has worked in the past and could work in the future and write of the format as failing.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

Alright. If stage 2s are desperately needed to be happy with the format, the only way to make them work is to solve the issues I posted above.

Right... some people advocate this, and I've repeatedly explained why suggestions like this just don't work. It is a matter of speed. Get this, some people play a game to... play a game! Crazy, am I right? Seriously though, that's what it comes across to players like me when we try to argue for a better paced format. You've got some people who just want a format where the game is over by a player's sixth turns tops, while others want it to go the distance.

You can think of it like you would a video game. Some people enjoy "microgame" based game play... and I am one of them. I can also enjoy epic, lengthy gameplay. The difference? Microgame based gameplay is for video games. Not TCGs. Not where you spend time testing your deck, trading for cards, driving to events, etc. Plus most Microgame based gameplay isn't one mistake equals instant game over.

[Ignatious]

Originally Posted by Otaku

This is what really removes you from the debate; you are very biased against Stage 2 Pokemon. When the game is properly balanced no Stage is inherently better or worse than others; the game has seldom every been properly balanced in this regard. You also enjoy a much faster game than many of us do. You are entitled to enjoy what you like, but can you not see what you're overlooking?

The things you don't like because you don't find them enjoyable to play are the things most of us normally find enjoyable to play but also are finding significantly underwhelming this format. You choose to love the format and blame this failing on the inherent design of the Evolution mechanic; we choose to love how the game has worked in the past and could work in the future and write of the format as failing.

Right... some people advocate this, and I've repeatedly explained why suggestions like this just don't work. It is a matter of speed. Get this, some people play a game to... play a game! Crazy, am I right? Seriously though, that's what it comes across to players like me when we try to argue for a better paced format. You've got some people who just want a format where the game is over by a player's sixth turns tops, while others want it to go the distance.

You can think of it like you would a video game. Some people enjoy "microgame" based game play... and I am one of them. I can also enjoy epic, lengthy gameplay. The difference? Microgame based gameplay is for video games. Not TCGs. Not where you spend time testing your deck, trading for cards, driving to events, etc. Plus most Microgame based gameplay isn't one mistake equals instant game over.

Pokemon takes more time, and is a more lengthy card game in general compared to every single successful TCG. In fact, other TCGs have enough time to play a 2/3 match within their 30 minutes. I don't understand the need for slower play. The way card games are made/played these days would agree with me on this, I don't understand where the idea of lengthy gameplay for TCGs came from. Perhaps you would like for them to be more lengthy, but they simply are not this way. If some want a longer game, and some want a shorter game, it s only natural for those not getting in their way to complain, regardless of which way it is. These complaints are unstoppable. What do you want done about it, have your way so that others complain? How about accept it the way it is, regardless of which it is. Just a heads up though, I'm sure the game will remain fast paced for a long time.

My love for a faster paced format has nothing to do with the discussion. The format takes skill. It has an effective metagame. It allows for creative deck types and deck construction. I have played this game since it came out, an played competitively since Neo Destiny. My greatest achievements come from this era. I know how the game used to be, the formats took skill, had a metagame and allowed for creativity all at the same time. The games were slower, which allowed for stage 2s to exist, but again, some people like that, and others don't. I don't.

My whole point from the beginning was that our format is fine the way it is. Even if you did make stage 2s playable, some would complain and others would enjoy. Truth is, the formats don't get much better than this, even though it's not satisfying your (any many others) personal niche.

[EliGagerNorris]

Originally Posted by Otaku

And now for Ignatious...



This is what really removes you from the debate; you are very biased against Stage 2 Pokemon.

And you are very biased against big Basic Pokemon. :)

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Ignatious

Pokemon takes more time, and is a more lengthy card game in general compared to every single successful TCG.

Which is why I am not playing those TCGs.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

In fact, other TCGs have enough time to play a 2/3 match within their 30 minutes. I don't understand the need for slower play.

Pokemon doesn't play best two of three matches in the 30 minutes, and even if it could, the fundamental design of the game is geared towards slower play, with factors such as Evolutions and the Prize based game play.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

The way card games are made/played these days would agree with me on this, I don't understand where the idea of lengthy gameplay for TCGs came from. Perhaps you would like for them to be more lengthy, but they simply are not this way. If some want a longer game, and some want a shorter game, it s only natural for those not getting in their way to complain, regardless of which way it is. These complaints are unstoppable. What do you want done about it, have your way so that others complain?

You're a customer. I'm a customer. We both let the seller know what we want and they decide which is better to deliver. I understand why you enjoy the game being fast paced. You yourself said most other TCGs are even faster, so... have you considered that you can play them? I am not telling you to stop playing, I am merely pointing out you have alternatives. I don't. I've tried other TCGs and found Pokemon to be my favorite even before factoring in my fondness of the franchise itself.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

How about accept it the way it is, regardless of which it is. Just a heads up though, I'm sure the game will remain fast paced for a long time.

If I should accept the way the game is, and complaining is inevitable... shouldn't you simply be silent and accept my complaining? If the game remains fast paced, at least I've been allowed to say my peace. Well, unless you're in charge, apparently.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

My love for a faster paced format has nothing to do with the discussion.

Everyone is biased. It is a side effect of being alive.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

The format takes skill. It has an effective metagame. It allows for creative deck types and deck construction.

You protest too much methinks; notice how I said the game requires skill right now. Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself? Or did you mistake me for vaporeon?

Originally Posted by Ignatious

I have played this game since it came out, an played competitively since Neo Destiny. My greatest achievements come from this era. I know how the game used to be, the formats took skill, had a metagame and allowed for creativity all at the same time. The games were slower, which allowed for stage 2s to exist, but again, some people like that, and others don't. I don't.

And this is why I pointed out you have reason to be biased. You said it yourself: this is the formats where you have done the best and you love it. Would you be so fond if you not only weren't on top, but were actually performing the worst you ever had? Doing well this format doesn't negate your input, but it does color it and needs to be acknowledged.

Originally Posted by Ignatious

My whole point from the beginning was that our format is fine the way it is. Even if you did make stage 2s playable, some would complain and others would enjoy. Truth is, the formats don't get much better than this, even though it's not satisfying your (any many others) personal niche.

Your point actually seems to be that I shouldn't be allowed to voice my opinions on the game, even though I've been playing the game as long as you have, helped others learn how to play, written articles on the subject, and studied the game quite a bit. I have never been a big name player, but that's okay: I don't deserve that. Even when I am at the top of my game, so to speak, I tend to choke under pressure in tournaments.

You know what? That's fine by me; while I'd love to be a champ I know I my ego inflates like a balloon filled by mechanical methods. Thing is, whether I am winning or losing will affect how I view the game, I admit this. I admit this so that I can then try to adjust for it. Right now I am neither winning or losing a lot. In fact, I've had a hard time getting to play lately, and I only bring that up to point out I am talking to people.

I hear people's complaints, and I look to see if there is a way to solve them. Perhaps TPC has already done this, run the numbers, tested the ideas, and the game really is running the best it can. In which case I kindly ask them to quick making so much filler. Kind of hard to complain about useless Stage 2 Pokemon eating up space when they aren't in a set, you know? For that matter, hard to complain about useless Stage 1 and Basic Pokemon if they aren't getting made, either.

Originally Posted by EliGagerNorris

And you are very biased against big Basic Pokemon. :)

Just checking: how long have you paid attention to what I said? Just curious; when the formats have been dominated by Evolutions, save those times I'd been on hiatus, I've then made the similar arguments for "restoring fully Evolved Basic Pokemon" to their rightful place. Plus right now, I actually am arguing for all fully Evolved Pokemon to be on an equal playing field; Stage 2 Pokemon have it worst right now, then Stage 1, but even many Basic Pokemon have been reduced to nothing but set filler because the power creep became the power leap.

[tutti]

Originally Posted by Otaku

So if you understood my arguments about rotation then why bring up Energy Switch? You may as well point out that Neo Genesis Slowking really ruins my plans as well.

It was just a side comment, it wasn't meant to be taken as further argument. It was just meant to make the example, based on the premises I thought were the case, not seem completely idiotic. I can't fix it being not relevant though, so let's put it aside?

Originally Posted by Otaku

I said a "no damage" rule would be too complicated for new players and that we have already seen that this bothers TPC. It isn't just me trying to be picky, but pointing out that arguing for it is like arguing for full tournaments of best two of three: we've basically been told "no" already.

I did explain that I don't think this rule would be complicated at all. If TPC's problem is a complicated first turn rule, then that shouldn't extend to a simple one.

Originally Posted by Otaku

I fear an increase in the latter because of a "no damage first turn" rule; cards will keep being designed as is and while the format will hopefully improve, instead of filler because the format is broken we'll be getting more filler where the excuse is "we have to make cards like this". You may write that off as a "me" thing if you wish.

Why would they "have to" make cards like that though?

[EliGagerNorris]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Just checking: how long have you paid attention to what I said? Just curious; when the formats have been dominated by Evolutions, save those times I'd been on hiatus, I've then made the similar arguments for "restoring fully Evolved Basic Pokemon" to their rightful place. Plus right now, I actually am arguing for all fully Evolved Pokemon to be on an equal playing field; Stage 2 Pokemon have it worst right now, then Stage 1, but even many Basic Pokemon have been reduced to nothing but set filler because the power creep became the power leap.

It was just an observation I made. Just because someone has a bias towards something shouldn't mean they can't participate in a discussion, which was the opposite of what you said to the other person. After all, everyone has bias.

[Ignatious]

Originally Posted by Otaku

You're a customer. I'm a customer. We both let the seller know what we want and they decide which is better to deliver. I understand why you enjoy the game being fast paced. You yourself said most other TCGs are even faster, so... have you considered that you can play them? I am not telling you to stop playing, I am merely pointing out you have alternatives. I don't. I've tried other TCGs and found Pokemon to be my favorite even before factoring in my fondness of the franchise itself.

Sure, you have a right to complain. At least while you complain, don't boast that you know how to make the format better. Understand that your adjustments to a format only satisfy you, and those that share the same opinion. I've read your posts and you act like everyone wants to see slower play and stage 2s. Slower does not = better. Heck faster doesn't = better. Again, I'm not advocating 'fast format for life!' I'm merely suggesting that our format isn't bad. If the tables were turned, and it were a game of set up, I shouldn't complain either, so long as it was a good format otherwise.

Originally Posted by Otaku

If I should accept the way the game is, and complaining is inevitable... shouldn't you simply be silent and accept my complaining? If the game remains fast paced, at least I've been allowed to say my peace. Well, unless you're in charge, apparently.

If I should be silent and accept your complaining, shouldn't you be silent and accept mine? This can go on forever, and isn't a very good point. We're having a discussion here, I'm going to try and explain that you are wrong and that I am right, while you do the same, respectively. I feel as though people shouldn't complain about this, and if they do, their complains aren't very logical with the grand scheme of players and their opinions. If you feel like I shouldn't voice my disagreement, then say so, but I get the feeling your comment above was entirely hypothetical.

Originally Posted by Otaku

And this is why I pointed out you have reason to be biased. You said it yourself: this is the formats where you have done the best and you love it. Would you be so fond if you not only weren't on top, but were actually performing the worst you ever had? Doing well this format doesn't negate your input, but it does color it and needs to be acknowledged.

My apologies. That meant to read: my greatest achievements came from the era I was previously referring to. Some of the "back in the day" eras. My point was that I am successful in both.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Your point actually seems to be that I shouldn't be allowed to voice my opinions on the game,

Again, of course you have a right to complain, but I don't agree with the complaining.

Originally Posted by Otaku

I hear people's complaints, and I look to see if there is a way to solve them. :

The method here, is to make others complain as well. It's an endless cycle. Why not complain about something that doesn't have such a solution, perhaps when the format itself actually is bad, and everyone (more or less) can agree. The release of BW rules with the existence of Sableye was a perfect example of how the format would have been terrible, and everyone agreed (more or less).

[Mystery Thing]

A bunch of posts on here are starting to stray from the topic, guys.

You're supposed to be talking about benefits for evolution cards. Not format balancing.

Kindly steer it back in that direction, please.

[bullados]

Originally Posted by Mystery Thing

A bunch of posts on here are starting to stray from the topic, guys.

You're supposed to be talking about benefits for evolution cards. Not format balancing.

Kindly steer it back in that direction, please.

They are one and the same.

The purpose for bringing up benefits for evolution cards is an attempt to balance the format.

We are exploring other ways of balancing the format as well.

After a page, the original topic was pretty well used up. So, we moved in a natural direction.

There are times when the natural evolution of a topic is still on-point with the original purpose. This is most definitely one of those times.

[evil psyduck]

If this gets out of line again it will be locked.

[EliGagerNorris]

That's his point though... it wasn't getting out of line... but whatevs.

[Ignatious]

As a life motto, I usually say 'don't complain, just adapt'. You realize for anyone to be within this 'benefiting group' they must have first adapted to the format, then proceeded to benefit. I am in fact asking for you, and those that dislike the pace of the format to adapt. The only other alternative is to change the game to make other people complain instead. Even if the format were stage 2 dominant, I would advocate adaption over complaining. I would play a stage 2 deck and have fun with it as well. In fact, history would suggest I already have.

I don't see some form of 'magical solution' being possible. Where the game is both short and lengthy. I don't find that realistic what-so-ever. Take out the fact that I enjoy the game as it is and look at what I'm saying; don't nit pick at a good format. By nit picking I mean making a large issue out of something that is not a large issue. The things I find to be large issues have been already stated, but I'll recap here; Skill intensive; Luck minimized; good deck options; innovative deck creation. If those 'large issues' are getting out of hand, then that would be when even I would complain. Or I would simply stop playing (a form of adapting).

There's a time and place for everything. Here and now; not the time for complaining.

PS. Evolutions and lengthy games tend to go hand in hand. I'm against making evolutions more powerful (or basics less powerful), Otaku is for it. I feel as though we are in fact discussing the topic at hand.

[raw19]

I don't feel we need any new abilities for Stage 2's. I predict anything we add would be too confusing for new players and, ultimately unnecessary.

I'd be happy just seeing some more of the awesome things we already had in the past. Speedy Evolutions (Pre-nerf Rare Candy, Broken Time Space), free retreat (Jumpluff HGSS), Playable Ability/Power/Body (Empoleon DE, Magnezone TR, Vileplume UD), decent and low energy attack (Empoleon DE, Jumpluff HGSS, Machamp SF), and nice hp score (Tyranitar Prime).

I feel that if more of these come into play in future sets and especially with a Broken Time Space reprint, then there'll be a lot less complaints about useless/dead Stage 2's and a lot less discussions about what should be done to fix that.

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

All the stage 2's now have pathetic attacks that are easily overshadowed by basics. If there's a Stage 2 that's worth setting up to give you an edge in winning (like how Magnezone was in the pre-EX format), maybe the format would be better balanced. Maybe a Stage 2 that does 100 damage for 2 energy? It's just a thought.
Posted with Mobile style...

[EliGagerNorris]

Aw yeah, Garchomp. Combined with Altaria it could make a tier 2 deck at least.

[Shen]

I've been meaning to post in this thread but haven't had a chance to read through the whole thing so forgive me if this was mentioned already. I did a quick text search and didn't find anything related to it.

How about taking away X2 weakness on evolutions and give them back +10 ~ +40 like back in the DP series? +30 on Stage 2's was the norm but some things (like Machamp Lv. X) had a +40 weakness. It makes sense to me, and we could keep the big basics with X2 weakness. It doesn't seem fair for a basic to have the same HP as Stage 2, and both of them are just as easy to KO. Imagine some of the current Stage 2's with only a +30 weakness. Empoleon wouldn't have to worry about Thundurus and it could work around Zekrom's Outrage. Magnezone could take a hit from a fully loaded Terrakion and Landorus. I can't think of many more common examples, but I mean still Typhlosion could attack a Kyurem (non-EX) and not have to worry about the Outrage OHKO, Gothitelle might be viable, Chandelure might still have a chance after Dark Explorers is released, etc. I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea.

This seems like a fair way to go right now to me. We've completely done away with the additive weaknesses, I don't get why we bother printing "X2" on the cards anymore as it's pretty much implied. Everything has a X2 weakness... except, I believe, there's a legal Pikachu with a +10 weakness lol. Still, we should bring this mechanic back. It would balance evolutions/basics and it wouldn't make match-ups as weakness dependent. Also, I think it would be a bad idea to introduce something like Lucario GL or Lake Boundary that gave everything a X2 weakness in this kind of format UNLESS it was given through the ability of a Stage 2 Pokemon.

[Ninja]

Originally Posted by Shen

I've been meaning to post in this thread but haven't had a chance to read through the whole thing so forgive me if this was mentioned already. I did a quick text search and didn't find anything related to it.

How about taking away X2 weakness on evolutions and give them back +10 ~ +40 like back in the DP series? +30 on Stage 2's was the norm but some things (like Machamp Lv. X) had a +40 weakness. It makes sense to me, and we could keep the big basics with X2 weakness. It doesn't seem fair for a basic to have the same HP as Stage 2, and both of them are just as easy to KO. Imagine some of the current Stage 2's with only a +30 weakness. Empoleon wouldn't have to worry about Thundurus and it could work around Zekrom's Outrage. Magnezone could take a hit from a fully loaded Terrakion and Landorus. I can't think of many more common examples, but I mean still Typhlosion could attack a Kyurem (non-EX) and not have to worry about the Outrage OHKO, Gothitelle might be viable, Chandelure might still have a chance after Dark Explorers is released, etc. I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea.

This seems like a fair way to go right now to me. We've completely done away with the additive weaknesses, I don't get why we bother printing "X2" on the cards anymore as it's pretty much implied. Everything has a X2 weakness... except, I believe, there's a legal Pikachu with a +10 weakness lol. Still, we should bring this mechanic back. It would balance evolutions/basics and it wouldn't make match-ups as weakness dependent. Also, I think it would be a bad idea to introduce something like Lucario GL or Lake Boundary that gave everything a X2 weakness in this kind of format UNLESS it was given through the ability of a Stage 2 Pokemon.

I agree with everything you just said. It makes everything a bit more balanced, and weakness doesn't make a Pokemon useless or good.

[TRAINER HEZ]

The + Weaknesses were a great method for designers to set the power-level of a card, as said above, if evos had + weakness and the big legendaries had x2 there'd be some sort of balance returning. x2 weakness increases the role of luck in a tournament as you can get paired against a deck you have a type dis/advantage with, forcing the outcome of the match in one direction before it begins. Weakness is a useful mechanic to keep certain decks in check in a meta, but the deciding factor in matchups should be the actual decks strategy (e.g. Disruption vs Setup or Control vs Aggro) and of course, the players skill.

Anyway! Back to the exact title of the thread, no Evolutions don't need any extra benefit (except maybe the above weakness point) they are fine, the benefit to evolving was once to obtain stronger Pokemon, but that's no longer the case due to the ridiculous Basics that were printed this year. The solution to the problem from the OP is hope that these "Big Basics" eventually cycle out and don't return and/or play another format/game in the meantime.
It's not a matter of fast formats = good or slow formats = good, a healthy format features decks that operate at different speeds and with different strategies. There's a place for Basic "haymaker" decks, but there should be other playable archetypes included in the sets design.

[Box of Fail]

Really love to see Tomb back. Or some sort of hard ex-stopping stage 2. Or un-nerf of candy. Really, I don't see why candy was ever changed.

If candy isn't un-nerfed, however, Machamp would have little benching potential and still be a pretty legit card to bring back. You wanna play 170 hp 2-prize basics? Haha, Take Out etc.

Or of course, there is the chance to print evolved ex's, which we still haven't seen in this second ex format (and some of which were quite good back in the day). The only thing that makes me hesitate here is that I don't think Stage 2s ought to RULE the format either.

So, I think a better idea is to increase the HP threshold for stage 2s. When 130 hp basics (let alone exs) are running rampant, it only makes sense to have there be more stage 2s with 140 hp + (and not just bulky ones like T-tar). I don't see why a stage 2 shouldn't have HP in the neighborhood of a basic ex, if you're not gonna print stage 2 ex's (which I think they ought not to, but the moneymaking potential is so high I think it's inevitable)

Yes, this is still more power creep but PCL keeps putting themselves in situations where the power creep of some aspects of the format is so great that the only way to offset it is more power creep.