Vileplume from Freeze Bolt revealed

[Croatian_Nidoking]

Reshiram and Pokemon Catcher say hi.

- Croatian "quadruple your pleasure" Nidoking

[Raen]

This is stupidly good and makes matchups all-important.

I hate this card with a passion. 2x weakness is horrible compared to +30. 4x weakness is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Regis_Neo]

Could be fun, it could theoretically make fun for eeveelutions or 4/6 corner variants.

[thepliskin5005]

Well like i said in another post this would be amazing with keckleon and from riseing rivials and porygon z from great encounters in the ruby and sahphire on format. But i really cant find this good with any thing elise.

[ShadowGuard]

I could think of an anti-meta deck using that Vileplume, with Excadrill, Rayquaza etc, but that will depend on how the metagame will look like.

But I wouldn't overrate that card. It's a stage 2 after all and very situational. History shows that such cards don't get very successfull - especially not in a metagame with Catcher and Rare Candy handicap so that 1-0-1 techs aren't viable.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Raen

This is stupidly good and makes matchups all-important.

I hate this card with a passion. 2x weakness is horrible compared to +30. 4x weakness is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

If it wasn't on a Stage 2 Pokemon, I'd be worried... or as others have pointed out, if we had some of the "classical" Kecleon that were able to fairly easily become all types. Perhaps even if we were getting it in a format that still had Vileplume from HS: Undaunted. The big thing is, we are in a format where the vast majority of card are already OHKOed via their Weakness. This would allow some lesser cards to be able to do that, but said lesser cards would then struggle when not Type-matching. This is coming out post-Dragons; Colorless Weakness seems to have been phased out, but we'll still have nine Types to cover for a deck that can handle "anything".

Of course, realistically a deck may be able to get by covering only a handful, but then we come back to the earlier point: damage output on Pokemon is so high that even Pokemon EX are unlikely to be safe. The real danger to this card is the tendency of TPC to design something and "forget about it" or at least significantly under estimate it until late in the format, and the fact that despite yearly rotations are set-blocks seem to be built with no clear division every four or five sets.

Still, lest I misrepresent myself, I do agree that the damage doubling Weakness needs to go. I've never been good enough at the video games to give anything but a novice's opinion, but if it works out there, it is because of all the other (painfully complex) factors not present in the TCG. Returning to the +X and -Y variable Weakness and Resistance would be much better in the long run for the game, I think.

[baby mario]

Thank goodness we will still have Catcher in the format.

Otherwise it would be dominated by crappy Basics that do 40-50 for 2 + Vileplume.

[Otaku]

In all seriousness, would it?

I mean, we have a format full of awesome Basic Pokemon already, that also OHKO or at least nearly OHKO almost everything they face. What's the point of a Sawk hitting 80 for and 160 for (due to quad Weakness) or a well timed Terrakion hitting for 180 (due to Weakness) because of it's probable-to-trigger extra damage clause was indeed activated? Or a Landorus that can accelerate Energy for itself and otherwise usually survive a hit (and thus get off at least one Gaia Hammer for 160 via normal doubling Weakness)?

Fast-weenie hitter backed by a Stage 2 versus huge Pokemon EX often backed by little else. Without Pokemon Catcher I'd say such a deck actually has a chance, but shouldn't dominate, or at least any better than a generic Potpourri style deck (Haymaker that hits most or all Weaknesses).

[Otaku]

First things first, we've got another thread on this here. No, not saying that should be "the" thread, just that it exists. We have the catch of this is "News", but the actual discussion of a single card strategy... yeah, better in a non-news forum. Maybe a Mod can merge the threads?

Originally Posted by Shino Bug Master

Maybe you don't understand how good x4 is. Super Effective 50 damage is now 200, which KOs anythign in the format with eviolite attached. That is rediculous, and will completely change meta math. It will make healing decks like the nats winning Hydregion a lot worse. And the format should be slow enough where Vileplume is viable.

Let us think carefully about this. We are already in a format where most Pokemon just need a PlusPower or two in order to OHKO something Weak to it. Those Pokemon are already Energy efficient. Vileplume is a Stage 2 Pokemon, so while it can make some "weenies" strong enough to OHKO Pokemon EX or other Stage 2 Pokemon... they will still be weenies. If this effect was on a Basic Pokemon, it'd be horrifyingly potent. On a Stage 2, your opponent is apt to have one-to-three turns to brutalize you before you get set-up.

How are we likely to run Vileplume, and which build is better than the alternatives?

1. With Pokemon EX - Pokemon EX are already strong, fast, and most that see play exploit double Weakness. You're probably better off making room for Sableye and Energy to recycle those PlusPower than try to combine them with a Stage 2 that will also amplify your own Pokemon's Weaknesses.
2. With big, Basic Pokemon that are not Pokemon EX - Most Pokemon are already strong and fast and exploit double Weakness. While they are unlikely to score a OHKO against a Pokemon EX, it again is close enough that PlusPower is likely to close the gap, and since you're losing one Prize per Pokemon instead of two, that's where you generate your "advantage".
3. With Evolutions - You're finally seeing some significant advantage generate, Pokemon that would struggle to score a 3HKO scoring a OHKO. You're also running multiple and/or branching Evolutions, and the deck has a much higher chance of misfiring.

Originally Posted by Shino Bug Master

Obviously though, it has to abuse weakness, and abuses yours too. SO not broken beyond all belief. Definately gonna be cool though.

@GSwab: The format will be much slower, and without PONT and Junk Arm, holding on to Catchers won't be as easy. As far as fire types that do 40, there really isn't much that you can just stick in any old deck, especially with such little energy acceleration/movement. And do we no that ths Oddish has 40 HP? It could be buffed up by now, since this VIleplume has 140 hp.

My testing is showing that the format will be slower... not "much slower". Currently I am only testing with cards out in the U.S. but even then, the big difference is that there is an extra turn or two of set-up, and a deck that can't multi-task while setting up (e.g. get something ready quick and then have time to at least start on the next Pokemon) might see a lull or two for "reloading" its Pokemon. Definitely slower, but it is basically one notch of separation... and that is without cards we know are coming that remedy it.

1. Emolga w/Call For Family - It's a turn or two later for setting up Basics over Pokemon Collector... but you've got your Supporter uses still.
2. Tool Scrapper - You know how a lot of Pokemon are surviving shots only due to Eviolite? That won't be an issue much longer.
3. Ether - Item based Basic Energy acceleration. If you hit a Basic Energy, you're an Energy attachment ahead. If not, you know what your next topdeck is barring "interference".

While you have found it difficult to reliably get Items... well that's relative. Compared to right now it seems hard. Compared to what I'd call "normal", it's a little easier, owing to strong draw Supporters. I know other long time players disagree, but the last format or two has been pretty ridiculous with respect to draw/search power/recursion power. We can't rely on two Pokemon Catcher getting recycled as needed by Junk Arm, but we can still make room for three or four and between early game copies of N and anytime copies of Professor Juniper, not having one means you've already used some or you're having real bad luck.

[baby mario]

Originally Posted by Otaku

In all seriousness, would it?

Probably not.

I just wanted to say 'thank goodness for Catcher'

[Prime]

Originally Posted by Otaku

First things first, we've got another thread on this here. No, not saying that should be "the" thread, just that it exists. We have the catch of this is "News", but the actual discussion of a single card strategy... yeah, better in a non-news forum. Maybe a Mod can merge the threads?

Good idea and I agree.

This is a single card, not an entire set. So, this discussion so go on in this forum.

[ninetales1234]

Sounds like maybe a few basic pokemon that do damage, but just not enough (right now), will now be put in decks to exploit weaknesses.

Durant with pluspower to KO Kyurem? Sure! j/k

[Wes1234]

I posted something about this in my "Rise of the Eeveelutions" thread just yesterday. Figured I could contribute to this discussion by copying and pasting it here....

Originally Posted by Wes1234

...if you think about it, even Leafeon and Glaceon might pair up well with Vileplume. Remember the "filler" Quick Attack they both have? They can do 40 damage on a coin flip for a single colorless energy. Run Fliptini to make this more reliable and your energy line will not have suffer from running multiple types. You can just stick to whatever you find consistent.

40x4=160 <---- Ugly number for Terrakion and Ho-oh EX to stare down. And lets not even talk about what Jolteon will do to Empoleon and Tornadus EX.

Best part of all, everything except Vileplume can be searched out via Level Ball.

The biggest issue this idea faces, though, is deck space. 4 Eevees + 2 Leafeons + 2 Glaceons + 2 Jolteons = 10 pokemon right there. 3 Vileplume + 1 Gloom + 3 Oddish + 4 Rare Candies = 11 cards. 21 cards all for a pokemon group that lacks a way to combat threats ONLY with grass, water, and lightning weaknesses (and psychic weaknesses if you include Mew EX). Darkrai EX will have a feild day with all the 90- HP pokemon. In addition, Vileplume is Catcher bait.

My potential solution? Drop the Jolteons for your own Darkrai EXs and run dark energies to give your Vileplume a free retreat. Darkrai EX is the main attacker with Leafeon/Glaceon providing back-up to sweep up easy Terrakion and Ho-oh EX KOs. Empoleon will just have to be combated head-on. Dark Claws will let Darkrai EX's attack drop benched Empoleons down to 110 HP with the 30 snipe, so it's completely possible to have a feild day with Empoleons in this regard, as they have to two-shot you AT BEST, and even then, you can recover instantly. They, however, have to burn through Piplups, RCs and Empoleons just to keep up.

It's still clunky, but it might have a shot. Only time will tell, though. My faith in stage 2s hasn't really ever been that high, especially with the thousands of bulky EXs in today's format that are a lot less of a hassle to get out.

At least in something like that, though, Darkrai EX is the main attacker and doesn't hinge on Vileplume for every game.

[GoldenSwablu]

Aerodactyl and Twist Mountain could help a Vileplume deck by letting them get away with doing even less damage. It could allow a deck of easy to set up basics work well, and would help Leafeon and Glaceon kill EXs weak to grass and water. However, on paper it seems that there are no obvious ways to abuse the opponents' weakness with Vileplume w/out being over or under-reliant on it. Only time will tell if Vileplume decks will be a strong force in the format, or it will be just another useless card.

[Manifesto]

Geez. Did everybody forget that Leavanny from NV is still legal?

Leaf Tailor: Each of YOUR pokemon that have any energy attached to it has no weakness.

[Wes1234]

Originally Posted by Manifesto

Geez. Did everybody forget that Leavanny from NV is still legal?

Leaf Tailor: Each of YOUR pokemon that have any energy attached to it has no weakness.

Leavanny is a Stage 2 and is generally too clunky to include in a deck as a tech. Most people will aim to target down the Vileplume itself if Vileplume sees any play at all, rather than use a clunky STage 2 tech.

[Pikajew1213]

it's gonna be that 1-0-1 tech you play when there is nothing left for your deck

[Wes1234]

Originally Posted by Pikajew1213

it's gonna be that 1-0-1 tech you play when there is nothing left for your deck

Only if you run Rare Candies, and that would mean that you run Stage 2 pokemon. Empoleon is the only respectably decent Stage 2 right now as far as a BW-on format is concerned. All other decks would need to destroy their consistency just to fit in an EXTREMELY situational tech.

[Pikajew1213]

^are you basing this on no dragon types yet?

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

this thing worries me. We could see a nasty counter to the meta with

Vileplume + Terrakion (Kills Dark) + Verizon EP (kills Terrak/Groudon) + Giratina-EX (kills dragons and works with grass energy)

or something. Sure people will say it'd be tough in theory and sure catcher would try to kill vileplume, but realisticly it would not be too hard to get 2 vileplumes in play and catcher will be a lot harder to play whenever you want because of the loss of Junk Arm. sure Skyla helps get catcher out, but how many of those are you really gonna play in a format with only 2 hand refresh supporters and 2 draw supporters? Prism and Ether would also make this deck all the more easy to play. Of course, this vileplume won't be released for half a year or so, but something tells me that a deck as consistantly good as Darkrai won't be going away until it gets rotated or some amazing sure-fire counter comes up. Terrakion also is too good to be unused in a format that has an abundance of Darkrai. Just an idea, and I'm sure I'll be getting half a million hateful replies as to why this is irrational and wouldn't work, but even so, Vileplume might not be as insignificant as people think in a format with such powerful basics that counter each other.

[rluxio]

Huh makes you wish that the Kecleon that was every type was back doesn't it,

[Pikajew1213]

No^
Kecleon isn't dragon type :P

[N plasma]

with all of the over powered basics, its only fair to make a STAGE 2 BE ABLE TO ONE SHOT A BASIC.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by AlmightyGoldenGarchomp

this thing worries me. We could see a nasty counter to the meta with

Vileplume + Terrakion (Kills Dark) + Verizon EP (kills Terrak/Groudon) + Giratina-EX (kills dragons and works with grass energy)

So based on what we do know, Giratina EX and Terrakion already see play because they already hit hard enough against x2 Weakness. With their own Weaknesses also quadrupled, they are quite vulnerable to the counters already being played/planned on being played. Your exact example I know was meant to be just that, an example and not the default, but think of how hard it really is to hit every Weakness...

...and that's what you'll have to do. We've got Fighting decks running Groudon EX and Landorus already. Their Weakness is Water, not Grass. All the Pokemon in that list are just hitting for normal damage. It sounds suicidal to run a Pokemon EX that has a Weakness with Vileplume; even a fast one is likely to be OHKOed; the max HP is 180 and that means just 45 points of damage (not that it could literally be that number) OHKOs them. As a Pokemon EX, your opponent just has to take it down before said Pokemon EX KOs two Pokemon to break even. So that's now a matter of two Pokemon hitting for about 30 points of damage each for the biggest Pokemon EX!

Instead of Leavanny countering this card, it might be needed to use Vileplume effectively itself. I mean, the "weenie rush" idea also suffers: even if you're using non-Evolved Basic Pokemon that need a single Energy to attack and exploit quad Weakness... they are weenies. If their Weakness(es) aren't present, your opponent has a good chance of running over them with normal tactics anyway.

Originally Posted by AlmightyGoldenGarchomp

or something. Sure people will say it'd be tough in theory and sure catcher would try to kill vileplume, but realisticly it would not be too hard to get 2 vileplumes in play and catcher will be a lot harder to play whenever you want because of the loss of Junk Arm. sure Skyla helps get catcher out, but how many of those are you really gonna play in a format with only 2 hand refresh supporters and 2 draw supporters?

Your information here is bad. First, if it is easy to get two Stage 2 Pokemon into play, it is also probably easy to draw into an Item players have four copies of, let alone the fact we are getting a pseudo-reprint of Warp Point in the form of Escape Rope (plus various other Pokemon that snipe or manipulate what is Active).

The converse is not true; if it is easy to draw into a Pokemon Catcher, it still may not be easy to set up two Stage 2 Pokemon. Yes, we are talking two copies of the same Stage 2, but it still takes time and resources. Plus it isn't just setting it up, it is setting it up while pulling, playing, and powering up the Pokemon you need at the moment to exploit Weakness. For many, if you aren't powering them up in a single turn you're not going to be able to build sustainable advantage.

The big thing is you counted wrong. We have Professor Juniper, N, Cheren, and Bianca for draw power in the next format. That is four Supporters, not too. Bianca and Cheren aren't ideal, but Cheren has done an adequate job in my play-testing and the Japanese lists I've seen seem to favor Bianca. Maxing out all of them is 12 draw Supporters, and you can run Random Receiver to give better odds of drawing into the one you want.

Losing Junk Arm just means no more casually tossing Items for discard costs or being able to recycle a TecH copy as needed. Anything important you just have to run in threes or fours.

Originally Posted by AlmightyGoldenGarchomp

Prism and Ether would also make this deck all the more easy to play. Of course, this vileplume won't be released for half a year or so, but something tells me that a deck as consistantly good as Darkrai won't be going away until it gets rotated or some amazing sure-fire counter comes up. Terrakion also is too good to be unused in a format that has an abundance of Darkrai. Just an idea, and I'm sure I'll be getting half a million hateful replies as to why this is irrational and wouldn't work, but even so, Vileplume might not be as insignificant as people think in a format with such powerful basics that counter each other.

Ether only works with Basic Energy and is semi-random. I think Ether will be a great card, and if decks can adjust their builds properly a possible staple. Odds are a Vileplume deck will need some form of Energy acceleration, but Ether can only do so much unless most of your attackers use the same basic Energy card. If another source of Energy acceleration is used, then Prism and/or the Blend Energy cards would likely be a huge help.

Don't set up people disagreeing with your Theorymon as "hateful replies"; you made your points and I presented my counter-arguments... some of which have already been made earlier in the thread.