BW-on Discussion and Top tier decks for 2012-2013 season

[Otaku]

It is called "Pokemon Catcher". Or are you claiming there is a deck that runs all of them? That's three kinds of Energy, basic Energy if you want Terrakion EX to really be useful.

Only a few decks rely on Pokemon EX almost exclusively... and expect them to adapt by running some non-Pokemon EX now... at the very least if Sigilyph is good, they'd run it too. XD

In direct match-ups, Raikou EX can just snipe around it until the opponent is down to Sigilyph... which can only do 50 points of damage per attack since Raikou EX is (usually) shedding all it's energy.

[untitled]

Originally Posted by ssjoddish

but what about rayquaza ex mewtwo ex terrakion ex raikou ex and tornadus ex?

Well, aside from Terrakion-EX and to a lesser extent Mewtwo-EX, all of those attackers have a very manageable retreat cost. So you're throwing three energy on a very low-HP Pokemon in a deck with very limited energy acceleration to make them retreat to a non-EX attacker. It's a very risky game plan, especially considering attacking with Darkrai is equally effective if you have a Max Potion.

Rayquaza has also been really underperforming in my testing. It never works better than Zekrom unless I charge it for an extra turn, at which point it's a huge liability.

Raikou is completely irrelevant because it snipes the bench as effectively as it attacks the active and Sigilyph doesn't do very much damage to it.

Tornadus-EX, Terrakion-EX, and even Mewtwo-EX to an extent are all part of the "basic beatdown" decks that Hydregion is great against anyway. A simple Shaymin-EX late-game can basically sweep these decks since they have to have a charged Terrakion-EX out to energy accelerate and Shaymin OHKOs Terrakion.

But I already admitted it's a good Mewtwo counter.

Edit- Oops, looks like Otaku beat me to a couple of my points.

[Otaku]

I am starting to think someone I chatted with was right. I may have to do an "Otaku on Pokemon History" Blog or article series on Pojo. Too many people don't understand that Sigilyph is just the new Sandstorm Wobbuffet... which was killer in some decks but mostly existed just so that running a pure Pokemon ex deck was a bad idea.

Speaking of history, there is also the return of Warp Point, even if it will be called "Escape Rope" now. Veteran players already learned how useful a "Switch + Pokemon Circulator" is, and with Pokemon Catcher to add to it? Amazing!

[hiddnen]

Was thinking same thing about escape rope... :)

[Durant Eats Children]

Originally Posted by TnTimmy

1. Hydreigon (dark trance) Exs is a deck that has the same comcept as Kinklang but it uses Hydreigon as the main attacker which for a psychic two darks and a colorless does one-hundred and forty and discards two darks. This decks idea is to use Hydreigon to deal high damage and only gives up a single prize card. This also uses Darkrai to give everything free retreat and other Exs to just counter what you are playing against. Now the best thing about this is you do Hydreigons attack discard two darks then idealy you can dark patch then move them to your active and when he is damaged move all the energy off max potion move it all back on and continue with the attacking. A main last card this deck has is Sabeleye he is your main setup support since early you need to use alot of trainer to get up and going and late game he is used to retreive more dark patches and more max potions to continue running well.

Hydregion isn't meant to be an attacker in this deck.....

[Human Destroyer]

He is actually plenty usable as a secondary attacker if needed. Darkrai EX should be your primary attacker though, and use Sigilyph for Mewtwo EX.

[Durant Eats Children]

Originally Posted by Human Destroyer

He is actually plenty usable as a secondary attacker if needed. Darkrai EX should be your primary attacker though, and use Sigilyph for Mewtwo EX.

Oh, I realize that it can be used as a secondary attacker, but the OP is selling it like it should be the main attacker for the deck, which it shouldn't be.

[Otaku]

This sounds more like miscommunication with a side of Devil's Advocate.

The aforementioned Hydreigon is a formidable attacker, but your focus should be on Darkrai EX (or another appropriate attacker). Stage 2 Pokemon may be viable with the slight slowdown early game in BW-On, but you still don't want to be having to set them up over and over again when your opponent is just dropping Basic Pokemon, even Pokemon EX.

Neither should you be afraid to ever attack with it; it's attack cost is fine given the deck it is in and unless your opponent OHKOs it, with the standard set-up you should be able to move a Darkness Energy to it in order to free Retreat it (via the Ability on Darkrai EX), then drop a Max Potion to flush away the damage.

[Charranitar]

Tier 1 - Zekrom/Eelektrik
Tier 1.5 - Hydreigon/Darkrai
Tier 2 - Zoroark/Darkrai/Sableye, Darkrai, Garchomp/Altaria, Gothitelle, Accelgor
Tier 2.5 - Empoleon, Emboar, Fighting

[Otaku]

Why half point tiers? Tiers are relative. You can have as many as you want be "competitive", after all. Just because referring to something as "Tier 3" meant it wasn't competitive in a past format, doesn't mean it can't be something competitive now.

Of course, you're free refer to them how you like; I just want to know if there is some TCG player's international committee issuing guidelines or something. ;)

[Human Destroyer]

I think it goes like this or something (SixPrizes has some system I think):

Tier 1: The best, most consistent decks.
Tier 2: Decks that are good, but are probably not good enough to win against the Tier 1 decks unless they are made as a specific counter to them.
Tier 3: Viable decks that haven't really seemed to do too well.
Rogue: Anything else.

[King Piplup]

Originally Posted by Human Destroyer

I think it goes like this or something (SixPrizes has some system I think):

Tier 1: The best, most consistent decks.
Tier 2: Decks that are good, but are probably not good enough to win against the Tier 1 decks unless they are made as a specific counter to them.
Tier 3: Viable decks that haven't really seemed to do too well.
Rogue: Anything else.

Tiers change on people's opinions, unfortunately.

[Human Destroyer]

Well remember, the WHOLE METAGAME changes based on people's opinions. If a card is good but not many people run it, it's going to be good because nobody will have a counter for it. Now if everyone plays the card, everyone needs to counter it. This was a vicious (and disastrous for some) cycle with Mewtwo EX, where you had to play him or risk losing as Mewtwo swept your whole team. Now we're seeing some great counters like Sigilyph, who cna pretty much wall Mewtwo entirely AND OHKO him if he has at least 4 energies attached (likely considering the nature of Mewtwo).

[King Piplup]

Originally Posted by Human Destroyer

Well remember, the WHOLE METAGAME changes based on people's opinions. If a card is good but not many people run it, it's going to be good because nobody will have a counter for it. Now if everyone plays the card, everyone needs to counter it. This was a vicious (and disastrous for some) cycle with Mewtwo EX, where you had to play him or risk losing as Mewtwo swept your whole team. Now we're seeing some great counters like Sigilyph, who cna pretty much wall Mewtwo entirely AND OHKO him if he has at least 4 energies attached (likely considering the nature of Mewtwo).

I meant the definition of the tiers.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh, I thought you meant which decks inhabit which tiers. Nevermind then. XD

[deashira]

I could be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere that Tiers are (or perhaps were originally) ranked by how much a deck is played, not by how well it performs. Now, you might think that decks that perform better will see more play, but in reality it's simply a matter of perception. So, tiering is simply a popularity contest.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the decks that won nationals in the US and Canada.

RM

[hiddnen]

Ya I was always aware of tiers likelihood of being played mixed with competitiveness.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by deashira

I could be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere that Tiers are (or perhaps were originally) ranked by how much a deck is played, not by how well it performs. Now, you might think that decks that perform better will see more play, but in reality it's simply a matter of perception. So, tiering is simply a popularity contest.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the decks that won nationals in the US and Canada.

RM

That is what tiers originally referred to, at least if memory serves. I believe that is how it was thought of for games like Magic: The Gathering. However a significant number of people use it to refer to overall "power" or playability of a deck, whether intentionally changing the definition or not.

In either case, I dislike that many are married to a three tier system. Some Pokemon formats especially have had enough decks that could justify adding another tier or two. This usually occurs because several popular decks are "staggered", and forcing them into the same tier is grossly misleading and if applied consistently, might put a half dozen decks (which might be the entire popular metagame) into the same tier, ultimately making classifying them in the first place useless.

Oh, and I like to add a Tier 0 for decks I personally consider "broken". This may be due to using overpowered cards, or an overpowered combo. This is a retro-active label for the most part. Sabledonk was Tier 0. Note that it also doesn't have to be the best deck; who really wants to lose to a deck where you never get a single turn? The only reason it is unlikely for a deck to fit this description with poor match-ups is that such a deck is unlikely to be played anyway, and thus largely unknown.

Now in games like Yu-Gi-Oh, Tier 0 serves a more useful purpose, like what cards you need to buy low and sell high and expect to be hit at the next Ban/Restricted list update. Boy that was depressing when I played that game.

[TnTimmy]

To everyone that read that hydreigon is suppose to be the main attacker that is just what I read and since the 140 has such synergy with patch and his ability it seemed right to me.

[hiddnen]

It has synergy sure but even hitting at 140 I wouldn't want to have my energy engine in active spot very often, same story with kk. Final battle for may
Championship was his only ko/ maybe even attack whole tourny.

[HerpTheDerp]

Originally Posted by TnTimmy

To everyone that read that hydreigon is suppose to be the main attacker that is just what I read and since the 140 has such synergy with patch and his ability it seemed right to me.

He is a viable attacker but considering the other dragon being released in the same set, it would be a HUGE liability to leave him in the active. He is the basis of the deck as Darkrai can tank for as long as you can get Max Potion. Hydreigon will die in one hit from Garchomp/Altaria decks, which WILL be as prevalent as Hydreigon/Darkrai decks. So unless you are going up against a deck that you know it won't be running Garchomp or be able to drop a fully powered Rayquaza, then sure he will be a good attacker. But considering the amount of resources you are going to put in just to get him out, I would not risk any chance of him being killed. Catcher KO's will be hard enough to deal with, you wouldn't want to give them up for free.

[hiddnen]

Exactly. Well put! Lol