Preleases running out of Promos

[SD PokeMom]

read 'pop's post above mine. your question can just as easily be turned around to 'what do the competitive players have against the casual players?'

is it really so horrible to have ONE event, held four times a year just for the fun of it, with no prizes on the line?

[NoPoke]

no one is ruling out competitive players. The event isn't tailored towards competitive players but they can still play / have fun / get the swag.

[IMO release events are the strongest marketing initiative that POP has. As such that have to target new/inexperienced players and their parents]

[Jaeger]

Mom: Once again I don't think you and I are on as far opposites as it seems. I agree PR's should not have additional prizes such as packs, but perhaps look into something else...like all of the undefeateds getting a "winner" stamped card or pin like they did in the past. Nothing that will add pressure or anything but something small that rewards players...this is more of a suggestion and not something I would be heart broken on either way. At the same time I agree fun should be the primary goal.

I also think a great compromise between the casual and competitive player is drafting...something I think Pokemon would look more into in the future. I find the format easier to build decks and I can also do a better job of getting commons and uncommons I want from the set. Its a bit more stuctured but at the same time still the same "fun"atmoshphere as PRs

---------- Post added 08/07/2012 at 07:57 PM ----------

Originally Posted by NoPoke

no one is ruling out competitive players. The event isn't tailored towards competitive players but they can still play / have fun / get the swag.

[IMO release events are the strongest marketing initiative that POP has. As such that have to target new/inexperienced players and their parents]

That is an extremely good point.

[P_A]

Originally Posted by SD PokeMom

read 'pop's post above mine. your question can just as easily be turned around to 'what do the competitive players have against the casual players?'

In answer to your question: Absolutely nothing, 'Mom. They're no competition! Sorry, just had to add a little humour there.

Not trying to be argumentative and all, but it looks like it's catching on .... that prereleases CAN be improved. That's the focus of that "other" thread. Seems we're getting off the topic of this thread and bringing the argumentative spirit over to this one. Too bad, since it doesn't have to be that way at all. To many people it looks like PTO's on one side of the fence and almost everyone else on the other. Not a good sign.

[ShadowCard]

Originally Posted by PokePop

It says that Prereleases are not about competition.
They are not ALL about the competitive player.
It says that parents of young players (and the younger players, quite often) want to finish up after 3 hours or so at an event and going longer makes what was a great time into a grind for them.

This has nothing to do with cutting the event short in order to do an after draft.

In fact, an afterdraft that 99% of your prerelease players play in makes it sound like they are interested in staying longer than 3 hours.

Originally Posted by PokePop

Prereleases are a party.

Yet players look forward to the afterparty more than the actual party .

PokePop, SD PokeMom, it appears you missed the point of my post completely. I'm not saying anything about the competitiveness of the event or the number of rounds. I'm saying that players are putting more focus on the after event than the main event. That is a reflection of a low opinion they have for a prerelease. They don't really care about the main event--the party--it is what happens after the party that they are interested in.

If you want to wrap that in a competition perspective, players wanting to play in a booster draft afterward could be a symptom that they are seeking a more competitive event to play in using the new cards that a prerelease does not satisfy. PokePop said 99% of his prerelease players also play in the booster draft. Are there prizes for those booster drafts? If so, that's a lot of players looking to play in a more competitive format.

Originally Posted by SD PokeMom

is it really so horrible to have ONE event, held four times a year just for the fun of it, with no prizes on the line?

Don't we have league for that, only the players don't have to settle for 4 times a year because most leagues are weekly?

[tutti]

99% of the players in his draft were playing in the prerelease, not the other way around.

...did the other thread spill over into this one?

[Charranitar]

I don't think it's good for Pokemon to not have any sealed events that are meant to be competitive. Maybe they could do one weekend of non-competitive pre-releases where you just get your 8 packs as you do now, the promo, and the deck box, followed by a second weekend of pre-relases where you get 8 packs and none of the side products, but plus the prize support of a booster box for first, half box for second, and 1/4 box for 3rd/4th.

I would venture to guess the second weekend would have much higher attendance than the first weekend. Contrary to the belief that some seem to have, I think a lot of new players and less skilled players would really like a chance at a box. Lesser skilled players will probably never win significant prizes in a Premier Event, maybe win a couple of packs at a Battle Roads if they're lucky, but most can't even do that. Having an event series where lesser skilled players would be on more even footing for playing into the prize support would probably really appealing to these players, while also being appealing to competitive players who would hope to use their skill advantage to try to take some of these tournaments, even if they don't necessarily pull the best cards compared to other players.

[Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Charranitar

I don't think it's good for Pokemon to not have any sealed events that are meant to be competitive. Maybe they could do one weekend of non-competitive pre-releases where you just get your 8 packs as you do now, the promo, and the deck box, followed by a second weekend of pre-relases where you get 8 packs and none of the side products, but plus the prize support of a booster box for first, half box for second, and 1/4 box for 3rd/4th.

I would venture to guess the second weekend would have much higher attendance than the first weekend. Contrary to the belief that some seem to have, I think a lot of new players and less skilled players would really like a chance at a box. Lesser skilled players will probably never win significant prizes in a Premier Event, maybe win a couple of packs at a Battle Roads if they're lucky, but most can't even do that. Having an event series where lesser skilled players would be on more even footing for playing into the prize support would probably really appealing to these players, while also being appealing to competitive players who would hope to use their skill advantage to try to take some of these tournaments, even if they don't necessarily pull the best cards compared to other players.

The amount of cheating when a box involved basically puts it out of the question.

[bullados]

ShadowCard: You missed a word in there. "Competitive players". Every one of your references ti "Players" is actually a reference to "Competitive players".

And, like Tutti said, you got Pop's point backwards. I thought that 75% retention was pretty darn good, and I think Pop thinks the same. But that almost everybody in the Draft also plays in the Prerelease says a lot more about the popularity of the Pres.

[ShadowCard]

The PR happens first, then the draft. Let me know if I understand this statement correctly,

Originally Posted by PokePop

99% of the players in my afterdraft also participated in the PR.

If PokePop has 100 players in the PR, 99 of them stayed for in the draft. Is that correct?

If so, the point about time is null because the overwhelming majority of players who played in the PR showed little sign that +1hr of a new event would stress their schedules any more than +1hr caused by a 4th and 5th round would have.

If the afterdraft has prizes, it shows that the players would prefer to make time in their schedules for an event that has prizes instead of playing an additional 2 rounds that have no benefit.

That players base a decision on attending a prerelease on whether or not there is an afterdraft means that they value the afterdraft more than the prerelease. It is not the party that attracts them but instead the activity after the party.

[psychup2034]

Originally Posted by ShadowCard

The PR happens first, then the draft. Let me know if I understand this statement correctly,
If PokePop has 100 players in the PR, 99 of them stayed for in the draft. Is that correct?

If so, the point about time is null because the overwhelming majority of players who played in the PR showed little sign that +1hr of a new event would stress their schedules any more than +1hr caused by a 4th and 5th round would have.

No, what Pokepop is saying is that if he has 100 players in the draft, 99 of them also played in the PR before the draft. Big difference.

[espeon200]

Originally Posted by ShadowCard

The PR happens first, then the draft. Let me know if I understand this statement correctly,
If PokePop has 100 players in the PR, 99 of them stayed for in the draft. Is that correct?

If so, the point about time is null because the overwhelming majority of players who played in the PR showed little sign that +1hr of a new event would stress their schedules any more than +1hr caused by a 4th and 5th round would have.

If the afterdraft has prizes, it shows that the players would prefer to make time in their schedules for an event that has prizes instead of playing an additional 2 rounds that have no benefit.

That players base a decision on attending a prerelease on whether or not there is an afterdraft means that they value the afterdraft more than the prerelease. It is not the party that attracts them but instead the activity after the party.

He's saying that his numbers for the draft are smaller than his numbers for the PR, but he has almost no one coming exclusively for the draft since most of the players in his draft also played in the PR.

[PokePop]

The PR happens first, then the draft. Let me know if I understand this statement correctly
If PokePop has 100 players in the PR, 99 of them stayed for in the draft. Is that correct?

No, not at all. Generally, I get about 2/3rds of the players staying for a draft.
What it means is that if I have 20 players in the draft, all 20 of them usually had also played in the prerelease. Once in a while, every few events, someone shows up late and plays in the draft without having been at the prerelease.
If it ever became an issue where numerous players were skipping the PR and just coming for the draft, then I probably would enforce a rule about participation in the PR. But I don't have that problem, so I don't have a rule.

If so, the point about time is null because the overwhelming majority of players who played in the PR showed little sign that +1hr of a new event would stress their schedules any more than +1hr caused by a 4th and 5th round would have.

No. Not at all. Through experience, I noted that players were not enjoying rounds 4 & 5. They were all ready to be done with their sealed decks after three rounds. They were all ready to either call it a day or move on to another activity, such as the draft.

If the afterdraft has prizes, it shows that the players would prefer to make time in their schedules for an event that has prizes instead of playing an additional 2 rounds that have no benefit.

Again, 1/3 of the players were not. It is that third, the young players with parents, and new players, that the PR format is better suited for than a draft format. Again, we are trying to meet their needs and grow the game. I am doing this by offering a combination of activities, some that suitable for all players, and some that are better suited for competitive players.

I've made my reasoning pretty clear on why adding competition to a PR is a bad idea.
PTOs are not all agreeing with this point because we are Stepford wives. They have lived through the issues that prizes brought into PRs and those problems greatly outweighed the benefits.
Agree with it or not, competition via prizes for winning are not coming into PRs.
And I'm done with this and the related topic. I've said everything that I can say within my NDA.

[UnpokemonMom]

Originally Posted by PokePop

It is that third, the young players with parents, and new players, that the PR format is better suited for than a draft format. Again, we are trying to meet their needs and grow the game. I am doing this by offering a combination of activities, some that suitable for all players, and some that are better suited for competitive players.

And as a newcomer, and a parent with younger kids, I do appreciate a "competitive" environment that isn't cutthroat competitive. All the kids want to win, of course, but I didn't see any crying or bad sportmanship when they lost.

I enjoyed the pre-release events as opportunities to get the new cards before the stores sell them, as well as the opportunity to meet older players (the league events in our area seem to be mostly kids) and a chance to practice my new skills!

[homeofmew]

Not all PTOs do after drafts though, I wish there were some drafts here.
I think the last draft I was in (POKEMON) was Crystal Guardians (?)

[PokePop]

Originally Posted by homeofmew

Not all PTOs do after drafts though, I wish there were some drafts here.
I think the last draft I was in (POKEMON) was Crystal Guardians (?)

And, if I might suggest, having players request that from their PTOs would be a productive discussion, rather than pushing for changes to the PR structure that have zero chance of happening.

Caveat: Some venues would not allow the TO to hold side drafts. This should be taken into account so it may not be possible for all PRs to have side drafts.

[raznprince]

Originally Posted by PokePop

If it ever became an issue where numerous players were skipping the PR and just coming for the draft, then I probably would enforce a rule about participation in the PR. But I don't have that problem, so I don't have a rule.

Funny you mentioned that, Pop, because I know a particular region that is notorious for this as I have witnessed (not participated) firsthand experience. While I no longer play in said region due to military relocation and personally do not agree with this practice, I will play the "ignorance" card and say it's the PTO's event and he/she does what he/she wants to satisfy his/her players. It is not my intention to start a junk storm mentioning this, therefore I will not publicly divulge any specifics out of fear of reprisal, but any brass with particular interest in this issue can PM me. At the very least, it is worth noting that there are places out there that do as you mentioned.

Originally Posted by PokePop

Through experience, I noted that players were not enjoying rounds 4 & 5. They were all ready to be done with their sealed decks after three rounds. They were all ready to either call it a day or move on to another activity, such as the draft.

This is to point out to the general public that not all PTOs conduct their consnesus set 3 rounds of PRs. Some choose to extend based on division attendance with the opportunity available to drop after the third round. Imo, 3 rounds of PR does promote more fun and less competition and is more efficient use of players' time.

Other than taking a food break, who, after having dropped after 3 rounds of PR would be interested in playing in a draft but has to wait on players who are also interested in playing in the draft but choose to play out their PR rounds? This, of course, assumes that there is sufficient product to support a draft after the PR.

[SteveP]

My PTO only holds 3 rounds of the pre-release, and no side drafts. In the past, we've done theme deck challenges.

Do the side-drafts use boosters from the new set? Are the prizes boosters from the new set?

[PokePop]

Originally Posted by SteveP

My PTO only holds 3 rounds of the pre-release, and no side drafts. In the past, we've done theme deck challenges.

Do the side-drafts use boosters from the new set? Are the prizes boosters from the new set?

Yes. But of course, it depends on there being sufficient supplies.
Occasionally I have to limit the size of the side event due to how much product I have and to make sure I have enough for remaining PRs.

[homeofmew]

Originally Posted by PokePop

And, if I might suggest, having players request that from their PTOs would be a productive discussion, rather than pushing for changes to the PR structure that have zero chance of happening.

Caveat: Some venues would not allow the TO to hold side drafts. This should be taken into account so it may not be possible for all PRs to have side drafts.

I don't have any issue with the PR structure, the 3 round thing done here and other parts of the country doesn't bother me at all.
Actually I like it. All I was saying it would be nice is pokemon had different formats of tournaments once and a while ie pass-drafts.

Now I am not implying we should have like type 1, type 2, standard, vintage, ect. But booster drafts, and maybe one other type of play other than modified- constructed.

[PokePop]

Originally Posted by homeofmew

I don't have any issue with the PR structure, the 3 round thing done here and other parts of the country doesn't bother me at all.
Actually I like it. All I was saying it would be nice is pokemon had different formats of tournaments once and a while ie pass-drafts.

Now I am not implying we should have like type 1, type 2, standard, vintage, ect. But booster drafts, and maybe one other type of play other than modified- constructed.

I didn't mean that you did have issues. I was talking to the participants in the thread, in general. Those that are pushing for changes in the PR format. I'm saying that what you are saying, that having side events where they are not currently offered would be nice, is a better avenue to explore.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by P_A

In answer to your question: Absolutely nothing, 'Mom. They're no competition! Sorry, just had to add a little humour there.

Not trying to be argumentative and all, but it looks like it's catching on .... that prereleases CAN be improved. That's the focus of that "other" thread. Seems we're getting off the topic of this thread and bringing the argumentative spirit over to this one. Too bad, since it doesn't have to be that way at all. To many people it looks like PTO's on one side of the fence and almost everyone else on the other. Not a good sign.

To be fair, the other thread had a problem: the most vocal poster and topic starter pushing for change has very specific changes in mind that undermine the point of the Pre-Release. It made it very hard to get anything useful out of the thread constantly having to point out flawed reasoning.

So it took a while for good ideas like encouraging shorter Pre-Releases main events and having a side event as well. Locations that can't get enough time for a longer tournament are justified in having just one event, or when product is too scarce, etc. The point of a Pre-Release is to show off new product while at the same time providing an extremely laid back, minimally competitive tournament environment. It is mostly a training exercise, the step between Pokemon League and Battle Roads.

Seriously, it is a tournament structured so that new players and experienced players will both need time to build a deck and write out a deck list; imagine if it was a regular, constructed event! Better to have something where people learn the motions for a serious tournament in a less serious atmosphere.

Tying all this into the main discussion, it brings up supply issues for Pre-Releases. TPCi needs to really work on their logistics, because Pre-Releases, especially with additional side events, are a beautiful way to satisfy the whole player base. I know shipping everything back and forth can be a huge issue because it is a huge expense and a hassle besides. A single promo running out in select locations is an embarrassment but not a gamekiller. Having it happen to regularly, or finding out that supplies are just too limited for the event? That can be a real turn off to would-be customers.

[Bigbowlr1037]

Originally Posted by Charranitar

I don't think it's good for Pokemon to not have any sealed events that are meant to be competitive. Maybe they could do one weekend of non-competitive pre-releases where you just get your 8 packs as you do now, the promo, and the deck box, followed by a second weekend of pre-relases where you get 8 packs and none of the side products, but plus the prize support of a booster box for first, half box for second, and 1/4 box for 3rd/4th.

I would venture to guess the second weekend would have much higher attendance than the first weekend. Contrary to the belief that some seem to have, I think a lot of new players and less skilled players would really like a chance at a box. Lesser skilled players will probably never win significant prizes in a Premier Event, maybe win a couple of packs at a Battle Roads if they're lucky, but most can't even do that. Having an event series where lesser skilled players would be on more even footing for playing into the prize support would probably really appealing to these players, while also being appealing to competitive players who would hope to use their skill advantage to try to take some of these tournaments, even if they don't necessarily pull the best cards compared to other players.

Your ignoring the point that many people have made. The ONLY possible way for this to work is to have it week 1 day 1 and every tournament MUST start at exactly the same time otherwise PEOPLE WILL CHEAT. If its day 1 week 1 and everything starts at noon then people wont have cards to cheat with and it could be feasible. But sunday of the first weekend would have to be the prereleases we have now.

[Swordfish1989]

In a different TCG I used to play in the pre-releases were competitive. Winners won playmats, deckboxes, and packs. But at the same time, all pre-releases happened at the same day at the same time.

People would be given their packs to open. After opening, you'd record all of the cards you received on a paper they gave you. Then you'd fold up the paper (with the cards) and hand it to the TO. After everyone finished, the TO would hand those 'packs' out randomly (no one ever got the cards they pulled themselves) and only then would you build a deck.

It was very well run, and no one could cheat.

[Bigbowlr1037]

Originally Posted by Swordfish1989

In a different TCG I used to play in the pre-releases were competitive. Winners won playmats, deckboxes, and packs. But at the same time, all pre-releases happened at the same day at the same time.

People would be given their packs to open. After opening, you'd record all of the cards you received on a paper they gave you. Then you'd fold up the paper (with the cards) and hand it to the TO. After everyone finished, the TO would hand those 'packs' out randomly (no one ever got the cards they pulled themselves) and only then would you build a deck.

It was very well run, and no one could cheat.

Yes this is the best way to prevent cheating. This biggest difference is the young kids, the games you played were probably mostly players over 15. How do you tell a 9 year old to give back the hooh ex he just pulled and take this beautifly. Thats the biggest reason(along with pokemon not being designed for limited events) sealed cant be done comprtively with pokemon.