Experimenting With Older Formats

[Otaku]

Below is a proposal for an "experimental format", the goal of which is to both have fun while better understanding the game. It is me, so it is pretty long-winded as I like to be thorough explaining myself.
Skip to the Official Proposal if you just want to be quick about it!

Actually don't: this seems to be confusing people.

As many of you know, I like analyzing this game. In fact, I probably enjoy over-analyzing the game. Still, this is how I learn about the game, and I often find that my initial impressions were completely wrong about something once I really think about it, and do some experimentation.

That is what this thread and its suggested format(s) are to be about. In some cases, aspects of formats simply were never challenged by the actual Organized Play. You might have someone vehemently defending a somewhat radical position such as "[Insert archetypal card/] only dominated because it was a good but balanced card but the majority of players didn't question the hype and ran it!"

At other times, the nature of the internet has failed to preserve a credible record; sites that got it wrong are as archived as sites that got it right, and even some of us who were there don't really remember. This can be extra frustrating since principles, effects, and even cards so often occur in a somewhat cyclical pattern.

For a while now, on my own, I've begun toying with something I would have railed against 10 years ago. I really began to take a look at what I claim to be the earliest "complete" format for the TCG: Base Set through Fossil. This occurred because someone posted on the Gym who had dug out his old cards, as had his friends, and just thought it would be fun to use their Base-Fossil (I don't believe they played the contemporary game at all).

While trying to help them, I dug out my copy of the Pokemon Trading Card Game for the Game Boy Color. While definitely not a true emulation of the Base-Fossil era as it contained some extra cards, was missing a handful of cards likely because the effects would be complicated to code, and the computer overall wasn't especially skilled or running established decks, it was still something; on par with testing against a newer player.

While I am pretty sure the people I mentioned no longer come around much, they had instituted a short, self-imposed ban list (Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal). Coupled with all the reprints/updates/homage cards we have now, I began wondering "How many of the 'old broken cards' were actually broken?" My initial testing shows that really, it was mostly S/ER that caused problems.

I don't want to go into too much detail as I fear I could bias testing results, but I fear if I don't explain things a little bit, many will write it off as nonsense. Without S/ER, building bigger Pokemon (Basic Pokemon or Evolutions) with bigger attacks becomes easier. Nothing stops you from using "Haymaker" Pokemon in other decks as the supporting Pokémon they were likely meant to be; they square off while your "bigger" stuff builds. Going aggressive and OHKOing Evolving Basic Pokemon carries the risk that your opponent is thrashing you with something for early game.

Official Proposal
So the official format proposal is for Base Set, Jungle, Fossil, and WotC Blackstar Promotional cards 1-15 and with Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal banned. I hope this to just be the beginning; if a compelling reason can be given why banning a different or additional cards would improve the card pool, it can be tested at a later date. The next logical step otherwise is to see what happens when Team Rocket is incorporated. I'd also like to eventually start testing past Modified formats, first as they were and then with potential bans.

I just wish to get people play testing these kinds of things since they do teach us so much about the game; there are so many cards I used to believe were flat out broken, but have now been reprinted and actually improved the game state. Those wishing to help just need to have some fun play-testing, and then I'd appreciate it if they PM or e-mail me a simple report. If you really want to go all out with a pseudo-tournament report listing a dozen matches in detail, okay. If you just want to write a paragraph explaining your overall experience and anything interesting you noticed, as well as your own final conclusion, that works as well.

I do want to avoid everyone posting such results here. Still, if that is how it has to be done, that works as well.

So I hope you give due consideration to this proposal. My early testing has been promising and fun, but I am having some difficulty finding opponents online (irl play is not an option for me at the moment) who have both time and experience with the older formats, though I am happy to have some players who didn't experience the original Base-Fossil era first hand willing to learn how to really play some of those older decks, and would welcome more. If you'd like to help me directly, again, PM or e-mail me about it. That information should be available on my board profile.

[Diaz]

Everyone is trying to "fix" unlimited. No one is actually digging into unlimited to make sure it's broken. I don't think it is. Just play some unlimited.

[Ness]

Team Rocket is a rather innocuous set and would fit in easily. Most of the cards that would be imbalanced in unlimited are in Base Set. You'd be able to add the gym expansions without much disruption to fairness, either, though Team Rocket's Trap might mess things up.

I gave up on unlimited just because there would be so many ridiculous combinations of cards that just automatically win the game, IMO, so there really isn't much skill in it. Rather, it's who sets their combination up first. The most recent was a combination told to me by Kyle Sucevich of Emboar, Shuckle, Forretress and Espeon. With Shuckle, Emboar and Espeon in play, one fire energy allows a player to draw his entire deck. Then, he can infinitely attach to Forretress, and wipe out the entire field of Pokémon in play using its Pokémon Power. Certainly sounds fun unless you're the one playing against it, lol.

But even if you do draw some interest, you'll never draw much. Not enough people own these obscure old cards, nor are people going to want to try to hunt them down. These kind of formats are best for a group of eight friends holding their own small tournament.

[Otaku]

First things first; I changed the topics title. I hope it makes things more clear what the goal of this thread is, since at least two people have clearly misunderstood the point.

Originally Posted by Ness

Team Rocket is a rather innocuous set and would fit in easily.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I almost started this experiment with just Base Set, Ness. The idea is to start with a modest card pool so that I can understand things better. I want to get into the designer's heads more. Besides better understanding what happened "back in the day", I can try to use that to understand what is happening now.

For example, I realized if you simply don't get the whole "Haymaker" thing, if you're approaching the TCG straight from the video games without prejudice, so much of the game's early structure makes total sense... for a slower paced game that never was. The idea that players could be so aggressive and toss so many cards seems to have completely escaped the design team.

Team Rocket does contain Dark Vileplume, Rainbow Energy, Rocket's Sneak Attack, Challenge!, Imposter Oak's Revenge, Nightly Garbage Run, and Goop Gas Attack. I am actually very eager to start using them in testing but I need the "before" data first. All of the above could be huge, and several should be based on the data I do have. Perhaps the most important will be Nightly Garbage Run; it allowed a level of "aggressive" play that is naturally punished more harshly in Base-Fossil, where a discarded Pokémon or basic Energy card is gone for good barring certain attacks, Revive (if it is a Basic Pokemon), or Recycle.

Originally Posted by Ness

Most of the cards that would be imbalanced in unlimited are in Base Set. You'd be able to add the gym expansions without much disruption to fairness, either, though Team Rocket's Trap might mess things up.

We shall see. My current testing has been showing the discard costs proving a lot harsher. Losing S/ER really impacted how I had to play... but it might just be me, hence the need for more play-testers!

Originally Posted by Ness

I gave up on unlimited just because there would be so many ridiculous combinations of cards that just automatically win the game, IMO, so there really isn't much skill in it. Rather, it's who sets their combination up first. The most recent was a combination told to me by Kyle Sucevich of Emboar, Shuckle, Forretress and Espeon. With Shuckle, Emboar and Espeon in play, one fire energy allows a player to draw his entire deck. Then, he can infinitely attach to Forretress, and wipe out the entire field of Pokémon in play using its Pokémon Power. Certainly sounds fun unless you're the one playing against it, lol.

This part is largely irrelevant since I am not worried about Unlimited. After seeing how many sets can be effectively added in here, I will likely tackle "Rocket On! Modified". I don't think the Gym sets are as safe as you do... but then again I named seven cards from Team Rocket that I believe will have significant (if not dramatic) impact on this experimental Base-Fossil format. If things do prove unusually "calm", I may play around with more sets but I really doubt things would remain diverse enough by the time I got to Neo Genesis, let alone through the other Neo Expansion.

Originally Posted by Ness

But even if you do draw some interest, you'll never draw much. Not enough people own these obscure old cards, nor are people going to want to try to hunt them down. These kind of formats are best for a group of eight friends holding their own small tournament.

Or playing online. I am not looking at creating a "third format" for the game. I am looking for some help to learn, to study, and to have fun. The more the merrier, but if it is only a handful, it will still be most useful.

[bullados]

Couple of quick questions...

1) Are you thinking about the original rules? RS era? BW era? Modern?

2) Original print? Or with the current erratas? Basically, is Bill broken or terrible? Is Potion decent or terrible?

3) Do you think you'll be exploring the possibility of Limited or Semi-Limited?

[Rambo]

I've been reading for a while and have to say I'm impressed what I'm seeing and actually really starting to like the look of this. I've always wanted some sort of format designed in the way you speak for current times.

The main problem is obviously the amount of people up for this, as it's not a universally exciting idea, and most people don't own these cards, and are too lazy to build decks for online play. I have a friend that I'm going to try and convince to do this with me though, and hopefully we can get some results.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by bullados

Couple of quick questions...

1) Are you thinking about the original rules? RS era? BW era? Modern?

2) Original print? Or with the current erratas? Basically, is Bill broken or terrible? Is Potion decent or terrible?

3) Do you think you'll be exploring the possibility of Limited or Semi-Limited?

Good questions: that should have been mentioned in my first post!

1) I have been testing with the original rules. I would like to eventually test with the others, however.

2) Original text, unless an errata was issued that was from that time frame. Since I recall WotC hated to issue errata, I doubt there are many.

Examples

• Bill is an Item ("normal Trainer"). Testing it as an "Item" in a later format (that is, one where it had initially been reprinted as a Supporter) may be interesting, but that would be down the line a ways.
• Potion removes two damage counters; if I had it remove three it'd be pretty slick in a format where () doing 40 is a strong attack.

3) I won't rule it out. I may consider altering the allowable amounts of certain cards, but that will be a separate step, if not separate "experiment". We need to keep track of variables.

[bullados]

So, 20 self damage for Confusion, infinite retreats, etc. Got it.

[Griftiest]

Bill as an item is stupid and instantly turns me off of any unlimited format.

Changing the rules any more than necessary is also stupid.

[cabd]

Originally Posted by Griftiest

Bill as an item is stupid and instantly turns me off of any unlimited format.

Changing the rules any more than necessary is also stupid.

These two directly conflict with each other....

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Griftiest

Bill as an item is stupid and instantly turns me off of any unlimited format.

Changing the rules any more than necessary is also stupid.

Good thing we aren't talking about Unlimited, but a Base through Fossil format to test some aspects of the game.

[Sentimental_Blastoise]

Happy to help test. No school like the old school.

You can probably tell what was biased towards playing in base set. ;)

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Darkrai Trainer]

Has anyone played any of these formats yet to try them out?

[rokman]

Originally Posted by Ness

I gave up on unlimited just because there would be so many ridiculous combinations of cards that just automatically win the game, IMO, so there really isn't much skill in it. Rather, it's who sets their combination up first. The most recent was a combination told to me by Kyle Sucevich of Emboar, Shuckle, Forretress and Espeon. With Shuckle, Emboar and Espeon in play, one fire energy allows a player to draw his entire deck. Then, he can infinitely attach to Forretress, and wipe out the entire field of Pokémon in play using its Pokémon Power. Certainly sounds fun unless you're the one playing against it, lol.

So basically, you either run that.

Or T2 Muk EX ;)

[Ness]

There's a Grimer with Ascension...pretty sure you could run T1 Muk ex!

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Darkrai Trainer

Has anyone played any of these formats yet to try them out?

I've been trying. Right now I have four players willing to test via Redshark. I don't know if anyone is testing IRL or not. The big hurdle I think is a lot of my testers don't have a great deal of experience with the early days of the game. I myself happened to have been in an area where I got the experience despite not having played "competitively during this time (or rather, the local metagame didn't survive long enough for everyone to have the cards needed for the top established decks).

The other issue is timing; few of us are available when the others are. So yeah, anyone else want to join in? What little testing I've done is inconclusive; neither proving nor disproving my little theories.