2 gardy or 3?

[espeon1]

Hey everyone, I am thinking of running GG since the card Double Colorless energy is coming back in the HGSS set this month. I need to know if I should use 2 Gardevoir (Yes I know how to spell it right), one Gardevoir X and 1 Gallade, or 3 Gardevoir, 1 Gardevoir X and 1 Gallade. Please help.

[Phazon Elite]

Personally, I'd use 3 Gardy SW, 1 Garde X and 1 Gallade. maybe take one SW Garde out for a PL Garde, I dunno.

[Mach]

Taking out a SW Gardevoir for a PL Gardevoir is your best bet. It gives you more flexibility offensively, since you can easily transition between a T2 Psychic Lock/Cut to the other on T3 if necessary.

[Xuii2-the-cleric]

3 is what i useill hit u up

[butlerforhire]

With DCE at your disposal, you don't need to be moving energy around to have quick back-up. Running only 2 SW Gardevoir is a bad move.

[Deoxys Cool Form]

3 Gardevoir is better. You want to keep the lock going, and with two it won't do so well.

Play 1-2 Gallade. But if you don't have the room then one Gallade is fine.

[Mach]

Coming from someone who's actually tested this, I can say that the adaptibility will save you games that you would've lost otherwise.

Anything that can discard your Energy (Typhlosion, Dialga G) will go for the DCE. If you have the PL Gardevoir, then at least you can still attack if you've got Energy on your bench.

Even earlier on in the game in the initial stages of the lock when Gardevoir is doing 60, and your opponent throws up something resistant to Psychic/that has over 60 HP to take a couple of hits while they set up behind it, being able to swap over to Gallade, drop a Mesprit, and OHKO without missing a beat is still a great option.

You'll notice I separated it out so that when you quote this it's easier to pick what you want to argue with.

[dave321]

OKAY. So, actually running this very deck at the moment I can tell you what works best for me is:

1 Gallade
2 Gardevoir SW
1 Gardevoir X
1 Gardevoir PL

Gardevoir PL is a 100x better attacker (it has a 1 energy attack that does minimum 30), and it has 10 more HP without level xing it. Power Lock IS pretty disruptive but some decks will fall a lot more easily to a straight up tanking by Gardevoir PL. This is also the one you'd level X so you can keep your Gardevoir SW(s) safe on the bench wihtout being succeptible to flygon, and if you really wanna power lock then just do the old switcheroo with teleportation and move up your energies.

In my opinion, you can also run another gallade, but if you do then take out a gardevoir SW.

[JPN Gallade]

I already made a GG deck for HGSS and I can tell you this. I really would run 3 Gardevoir SW and 1 Gallade. The thing is, the main strategy of the deck is to literally Psychic Lock as much as you can to slow the opponent down. That's why I'd run 3 Gardevoir SW and 1 Gallade. Gallade is basically there to take down your opponent's real bulky pokemon. Although the downside of running 1 Gallade is that it can be bad when prized, you still have Azelf to get it out of there.

Thus, this is what I would do:

3 Gardevoir SW
1 Gardevoir Lv.X
1 Gallade SW

Following along with this Gardy/Gallade line, run 2 Kirlia SW and 4 Ralts PL.

Also, I wouldn't really run Gardevoir PL. You have DCE, and it already gives Gardevoir SW enough speed, so I don't really think you need Gardevoir PL.

[dave321]

Originally Posted by JPN Gallade

I already made a GG deck for HGSS and I can tell you this. I really would run 3 Gardevoir SW and 1 Gallade. The thing is, the main strategy of the deck is to literally Psychic Lock as much as you can to slow the opponent down. That's why I'd run 3 Gardevoir SW and 1 Gallade. Gallade is basically there to take down your opponent's real bulky pokemon. Although the downside of running 1 Gallade is that it can be bad when prized, you still have Azelf to get it out of there.

Thus, this is what I would do:

3 Gardevoir SW
1 Gardevoir Lv.X
1 Gallade SW

Following along with this Gardy/Gallade line, run 2 Kirlia SW and 4 Ralts PL.

Also, I wouldn't really run Gardevoir PL. You have DCE, and it already gives Gardevoir SW enough speed, so I don't really think you need Gardevoir PL.

You have 4 unsearchable special energy in your deck - Gardevoir PL + 2 SW IS more useful than 3 SW because unless you draw into the DCEs then you're screwed, while Gardy PL is searchable and a siple evolution gives you the ability to make your attacker work. Just for it's power alone, we're talking, but it's one energy attack is great - if you can candy a T1 gardevoir PL you can potentially get the donk, either way Gardevoir PL is no laughing matter.

[Fire Master]

I've tested the deck a lot, and I found Gardevoir Pt to be especially useful if you're running Super Scoop Up, if just to keep the energies in play. Otherwise, it can be a bad draw. Say you start with Ralts, Candy and Gardevoir Pt (and no Pokémon searching cards), then it would have been better to run 3 Gardevoirs SW, so that Gardevoir Pt you started with would have been a SW one.

[dave321]

Originally Posted by Fire Master

I've tested the deck a lot, and I found Gardevoir Pt to be especially useful if you're running Super Scoop Up, if just to keep the energies in play. Otherwise, it can be a bad draw. Say you start with Ralts, Candy and Gardevoir Pt (and no Pokémon searching cards), then it would have been better to run 3 Gardevoirs SW, so that Gardevoir Pt you started with would have been a SW one.

With that logic you should replace every tech with something from your main attacker line. Obviously Gardevoir PL is not part of the main strategy and if you draw into it and get a 'bad start' (though I myself would consider that to be a pretty awesome start if I had an energy) it's bound to happen just as often as Azelf will be your only basic or you'll get a ralts and a hand full of trainers against spiritomb.

Personally I don't see much use in running that many of the same card when there is another with a pokepower that can increase consistency and decent attacks. If Power Lock isn't an effective strategy against the deck you're facing and your gallade prizes are flipped, what are you going to do? Or better yet what if your 1st Gardevoir SW dies? To put it in your words "If the Gardevoir SW on your bench would have been a PL one" then you'd be able to attack with PL but if SW needs 3 energies, even with DCE what are you gonna do? I think doing 30+ damage is better than having to skip a turn myself but...

[Fire Master]

I was saying that a 3rd Gardevoir SW increases consistency, not that Gardy Pt is bad. The one above was just an example (that happened to me), but I myself run a Gardy Pt in my deck. It can help often, but often it´s useless or you have something better to get: it´s situational. Running a 3 or 2/1 line depends on the decks being played in a given area. If Gardy Pt helps, then use it, but if not, then a3rd SW will be better. I like to use Gardy Pt to charge a Dusknoir in 1 turn an attack with it to KO unexpecting opponents later in the game.

[Phazon Elite]

Originally Posted by dave321

With that logic you should replace every tech with something from your main attacker line. Obviously Gardevoir PL is not part of the main strategy and if you draw into it and get a 'bad start' (though I myself would consider that to be a pretty awesome start if I had an energy) it's bound to happen just as often as Azelf will be your only basic or you'll get a ralts and a hand full of trainers against spiritomb..

What you're not getting is that running a PL Garde means you can only run two SW Gardes, thus limiting your ability to Power lock. I would maybe run Pokehealer, SSU, Queen, or some other decent healing card to remedy this, thus reinstating your Power locking consistency.

[GOROY]

You could always run 3 SW & 1 PL, but then you don't get the Lv. X - which can also be situational..

[Mach]

Originally Posted by Phazon Elite

What you're not getting is that running a PL Garde means you can only run two SW Gardes, thus limiting your ability to Power lock. I would maybe run Pokehealer, SSU, Queen, or some other decent healing card to remedy this, thus reinstating your Power locking consistency.

What you're not getting is that simple Psychic Lock repetition isn't going to be enough to win higher end games come States, or even during BR's or CC's. SP decks have the Cyrus engine to work from, the Gengar SF matchup is basically target practice for Gengar, and now that we have Copycat and Professor Oak's New Theory coming out in HGSS. We're not even going to even touch on how bad the Dialga G matchup can be. I mean, I even lost a game during BR's while using Gardevoirs because someone figured out that if they start with Unown G, they can do 80 damage T2 since you can't touch them yet.

Just like Kingdra has evolved since it's inception as a deck focused on the Aqua Stream late game into something that can consistently do 100-20 per turn, Gardevoir is going to have to evolve to match a changing metagame, too. Gardevoir's biggest asset as of right now isn't the ability to power-lock per say, but the ability to force your opponent to have only a few choices offense-wise. The major problem for Gardevoir is that our format is so wide open right now as opposed to 07-08 that it's impossible to prepare a deck to handle all of it.

The way you are suggesting Gardevoir should run is reminiscent of that style a couple years back, with the addition of newer tech cards like Poke Healer +'s or Super Scoop Up's. The difference is that back then, Gardevoir decks basically had to worry about Gardevoir decks and the odd Empozong. Lake Boundary proved to be a single card that could turned the matchup for both. The old strategy just won't work now because 60 for 3, even 2 with DCE, just isn't a high damage output for the resources and time required to set it up, when you consider that the majority of the current metagame doesn't even need a turn to start charging an attacker since they can start pulling 60+ for one Energy right out of the gate.

On the topic of techs, there are also a lot of newer things for Gardevoir builds to play around with, like Mesprit LA that lets you lock powers without having to use Psychic Lock. Or Nidoqueen, which lets you rotate your Gardevoirs around to keep them alive longer. You could even play around with Machamp or Gengar SF to let you turn around certain SP matchups. One thing that people are failing to realize is that Telepass + Cosmic Power + Set Up + a Supporter on top can equal some insane techs being run. One deck I saw at a Cities was basically Gardevoir, but with every tech known to man thrown in there. He almost cut with that, too.

I'm not directing this toward you personally, Phazon, but in general. It's actually pretty rare that I go into strategic detail on 'Gym. It's just that the line of thought here is very two dimensional when it comes to Gardevoir. I just wanted to get out that Gardevoir can pull off more than a simple Psychic Lock chain.

[butlerforhire]

Gardevoir PL is inferior to Gardevoir SW. Psychic Lock is the most disruptive attack in the game, doing 60-80 for 2-3 energy cards (DCE factored in, as well as Expert Belt) and cutting off all Powers for a turn, with no way to remove that effect. Only a handful of decks in this format, or any format for that matter, can function very long, let alone thrive, without Powers. Right now, it's mainly Gyarados. How does GG handle that? Wager them before you KO a Gyarados and take away their huge hand full of Rescues. Against every other deck, including SP, Wager + Psychic Lock is devastating. SP has Cyrus, but what good is that when they can't stockpile due to Wager? How is an SP deck going to win games when it can't Bright Look, Healing Breath, Flash Bite, Galactic Switch, etc.? Also, a lot of SP decks do run Claydol-- it isn't like SP decks entirely subsist on the Cyrus engine. Furthermore, in those SP match-ups, Gallade with Expert Belt is incredibly strong, possessing the ability to OHKO 3 separate lv. Xs (if it has access to all six unflipped prizes), unless Dialga G lv. X is among them (then it will probably be devoting most of its prize flips to KOing it, although that's perfectly fine). It also OHKOs Luxray GL lv. X without any flips or Expert Belt.

Copycat was available when GG had its real reign of terror, and so was Steven's Advice, which is better than the new Oak Supporter. Both cards were useful against Psychic Lock, but they weren't GG killers by any means. What are the odds that one of those cards is drawn into after a successful Wager anyway? How many of them will decks run? Cynthia's is another great recovery card, and it can work wonders under a lock, but any non-permanent form of draw is eventually going to fizzle out, and when it does, Psychic Lock returns the opponent to the state of deprivation they were in before.

It's common knowledge that Telepass affords more options to tech than most decks. That has nothing to do with the Gardevoir SW versus Gardevoir PL argument. Psychic Lock chaining IS what wins games, and it IS the focus of any good GG deck. Gallade is an amazing threat to always have looming in the background, but the goal truly is to Psychic Lock into the wee hours of the morning.

[Phazon Elite]

I'm just gonna reply to the stuff that is in rebuttal to my statement. Also, laptop has crappy keboard, so eply wll be dumb and short. Bored

Originally Posted by Mach

What you're not getting is that simple Psychic Lock repetition isn't going to be enough to win higher end games come States, or even during BR's or CC's. SP decks have the Cyrus engine to work from, the Gengar SF matchup is basically target practice for Gengar, and now that we have Copycat and Professor Oak's New Theory coming out in HGSS. We're not even going to even touch on how bad the Dialga G matchup can be. I mean, I even lost a game during BR's while using Gardevoirs because someone figured out that if they start with Unown G, they can do 80 damage T2 since you can't touch them yet.

Just like Kingdra has evolved since it's inception as a deck focused on the Aqua Stream late game into something that can consistently do 100-20 per turn, Gardevoir is going to have to evolve to match a changing metagame, too. Gardevoir's biggest asset as of right now isn't the ability to power-lock per say, but the ability to force your opponent to have only a few choices offense-wise. The major problem for Gardevoir is that our format is so wide open right now as opposed to 07-08 that it's impossible to prepare a deck to handle all of it.

The way you are suggesting Gardevoir should run is reminiscent of that style a couple years back, with the addition of newer tech cards like Poke Healer +'s or Super Scoop Up's. The difference is that back then, Gardevoir decks basically had to worry about Gardevoir decks and the odd Empozong. Lake Boundary proved to be a single card that could turned the matchup for both. The old strategy just won't work now because 60 for 3, even 2 with DCE, just isn't a high damage output for the resources and time required to set it up, when you consider that the majority of the current metagame doesn't even need a turn to start charging an attacker since they can start pulling 60+ for one Energy right out of the gate.

I'm not directing this toward you personally, Phazon, but in general. It's actually pretty rare that I go into strategic detail on 'Gym. It's just that the line of thought here is very two dimensional when it comes to Gardevoir. I just wanted to get out that Gardevoir can pull off more than a simple Psychic Lock chain.

As butler states, Garde's versatility is common knowledge. P-Lock is the main strategy, but it can easily switch depending on the situation. Yes, 60 + lock T3 is not good enough, but 80 + lock T2-3 may very well be. 80 is usually enough for a 2HKO. Of course, E-Belt is risky, but Queen/SSU/Healers/Garde PL all make it workable.