Luxray errata?

[Porii Sames]

Has anyone noticed that the Japanese Luxray Gl Lv.X can only hit one of your benched Pokemon wtih Flash Impact, but the American one can hit any Pokemon, including your active Pokemon.

Should this be errata'd? Discuss.

[amphachu]

I never realized it. I dont think it really matter because most people throw the dmg onto a benched pokemon anyways, so Luxray isnt easily koed.

[Porii Sames]

It might not matter usually, but it might. The fact that it's been out for this long and hasn't been errata'd is crazy, and the fact that it's so common means that it probably cost at least 1 person a match.

[TheGeneral]

It's because no one cares

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by TheGeneral

It's because no one cares

dot dot dot


Anyway, unless you can read Japanese (can you? o_O), I would assume you are reading a Bangiras translation or something, which - while they are generally reliable - are not official and therefore not always accurate.

The English card is the final authority on ... the English card. If there is no errata, it was correctly translated.

[ShadowCard]

Originally Posted by Kayle

Anyway, unless you can read Japanese (can you? o_O), I would assume you are reading a Bangiras translation or something, which - while they are generally reliable - are not official and therefore not always accurate.

The English card is the final authority on ... the English card. If there is no errata, it was correctly translated.

So many things wrong with this quote I don't know where to begin

not official =/= not always accurate. There is no connection between the two unless the two are using each other's notes.

absence of an errata =/= correctly translated. Absence of an errata only means we will use the incorrect translation. Playing by the mistake does not mean the mistake is correct. It only means we agree to play the card incorrectly, as told to.

Kayle, what you've just said is the equivalent to calling an "A" student an unreliable person from whom to get your notes if you were absent from class. An "A" student: generally reliable but not official (the student isn't the teacher) and therefore not always accurate. Yeah, the student makes mistakes, but using that as an excuse to not get/accept that student's notes, as if the student habitually makes mistakes and is undeserving of the reputation he/she has for good work, is an insult.

The bias of continuously using the term "unofficial" against Bangiras's translations is nothing short of an insult given the number of times Bangiras's translations have been helpful in discovering errors.

The official source makes mistakes. It may be a shock to hear this, but they are human too . Let's figure it out, correct it if a mistake exists, and move on instead of trying to discredit a source that may have exposed an error.

[TheGeneral]

Originally Posted by ShadowCard

So many things wrong with this quote I don't know where to begin

not official =/= not always accurate. There is no connection between the two unless the two are using each other's notes.

absence of an errata =/= correctly translated. Absence of an errata only means we will use the incorrect translation. Playing by the mistake does not mean the mistake is correct. It only means we agree to play the card incorrectly, as told to.

Kayle, what you've just said is the equivalent to calling an "A" student an unreliable person from whom to get your notes if you were absent from class. An "A" student: generally reliable but not official (the student isn't the teacher) and therefore not always accurate. Yeah, the student makes mistakes, but using that as an excuse to not get/accept that student's notes, as if the student habitually makes mistakes and is undeserving of the reputation he/she has for good work, is an insult.

The bias of continuously using the term "unofficial" against Bangiras's translations is nothing short of an insult given the number of times Bangiras's translations have been helpful in discovering errors.

The official source makes mistakes. It may be a shock to hear this, but they are human too . Let's figure it out, correct it if a mistake exists, and move on instead of trying to discredit a source that may have exposed an error.

And that's how you do that, Kayle

[Mystery Thing]

I disagree @ the insult comment. They are unofficial. No matter what. No matter how accurate they are, they are unofficial.

That doesn't mean they're wrong. That doesn't mean they don't count for anything. I don't dispute that they can be very useful for a variety of things. But they ~are~ "unofficial."


As for the "If there is no errata, it was correctly translated." comment, well... Neo Slowking, anyone?

[NoPoke]

lots of biases evident :(

unofficial is unofficial.
In the absence of an errata players can expect the english card to form the basis of how a ruling is made.

So am I biased? Or just accepting the only practical position that keeps rules anarchy at bay? As players you do want consistancy at tournaments, right?

[ShadowCard]

Originally Posted by NoPoke

In the absence of an errata players can expect the english card to form the basis of how a ruling is made.

That's a better way of putting what I was trying to say when I said "Playing by the mistake does not mean the mistake is correct. It only means we agree to play the card incorrectly, as told to."

The overall point being that when a translation is questioned, we should be attempting to verify it rather than attempting to discredit the person with an alternative translation. Verifying is constructive while trying to discredit the person takes us nowhere.

[Jariel]

i think nobody bothered since noone uses it on the luxray itself and has a general tendency of using/damaging the bench

i dont see the problem anyway

[Skytso]

Quick, somebody find a japanese pokemon forum and see if they're upset by this!

I don't think that they would care honestly. Who puts the backlash onto luxray anyway??

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by ShadowCard

absence of an errata =/= correctly translated. Absence of an errata only means we will use the incorrect translation. How do we really know it's an incorrect translation then? Playing by the mistake does not mean the mistake is correct. It only means we agree to play the card incorrectly, as told to. It's not incorrectly if that's what it says on the card. It only becomes incorrect once there is errata.

Kayle, what you've just said is the equivalent to calling an "A" student an unreliable person from whom to get your notes if you were absent from class. An "A" student: generally reliable but not official (the student isn't the teacher) and therefore not always accurate. Yeah, the student makes mistakes, but using that as an excuse to not get/accept that student's notes, as if the student habitually makes mistakes and is undeserving of the reputation he/she has for good work, is an insult. While we're talking about "so many things wrong with x", this analogy is very flawed as well.

The bias of continuously using the term "unofficial" against Bangiras's translations is nothing short of an insult given the number of times Bangiras's translations have been helpful in discovering errors. ???? THE TRANSLATIONS AREN'T OFFICIAL. Are you mad bro??? Bangiras does not work for Pokemon, her translations do not actually have sound bearing on the English translations, they are not official. I can completely understand making one really simple mistake on one card (that just happens to be Luxray GL Lv. X) and would not take it against her credibility on the cards at all! Weren't you just about to say that people make mistakes???

The official source makes mistakes. It may be a shock to hear this, but they are human too . See! You were! Let's figure it out, correct it if a mistake exists, and move on instead of trying to discredit a source that may have exposed an error. Don't you think after two years of using a card that won two consecutive world championships, they would have found the error if there was one worth correcting?

Originally Posted by Kayle

The English card is the final authority on ... the English card. If there is no errata, it was correctly translated IN EFFECT.

Goodness!

I try to state things simply when I feel that it's effective. I felt no need to jump into an explanation about errata and the process of creating it, nor did I want to assume I knew the mechanics of any portion of that process in order to make my point make sense. All I know is, the card has been out for... a long time now, right? Don't you think that, by now, if a mistake had been made they would have found out?

I would never get my notes from another student, by the way, no matter what that student's grade is. Poor example. Notes are an extremely subjective, user-defined thing. Reading a "straight-A" student's comprehensive notes would confuse me compared to the simple, this-is-what-the-teacher said notes I would normally take.

Bangiras' translations are an amazing thing; the ability to look at a set of cards and see what they do far before they are released is a wonderful asset to the Pokemon competitive community and I think it's really amazing that she's willing to dedicate all that time to it. I have no desire nor compulsion to discredit that talent and that effort. It's just... I thought you said everyone makes mistakes? Unless Bangiras is, you know, an alien.

If you really want to jump so far into this that you're going to completely shred an "incorrect but effective" point, fine: I'll just sit on the sidelines with a belief you may disagree with but will probably like better: The card is two years old now and has been featured in metagame decks since its release. I'm sure it has been researched tirelessly since then. Japanese and United States players have played together, using this same card in the same room, two years in a row and the card was featured in about four different World Championships decks.

If they haven't fixed it by now, I really doubt there's anything to fix.

[PokePop]

Originally Posted by Skytso

I don't think that they would care honestly. Who puts the backlash onto luxray anyway??

You might have to if Luxray is the only Pokemon you have in play.
Or what if all your other Pokemon only have 30 or less HP left?
There are times when you do want to do this.

Originally Posted by Kayle

If they haven't fixed it by now, I really doubt there's anything to fix.[/b]

Inviting Strike, anyone?
Mistakes don't get corrected if it is not realized that a mistake was made.
This is the first that I've heard of this potential mistranslation.
Two World Championships with Luxray GL being a key card in top decks and I've never heard of any Japanese player raising an objection to someone trying to put the damage onto Luxray.
Maybe it's just luck that the situation never happened, since it is a rare thing to do.
Maybe the official translation is correct.
I don't know.
I do know that Bagiras usually gets these things right, so I am going to pass this along for a closer look.
But for right now, we play it the way the official card printing is.

[gallade]

I put damage on luxray all the time.

[lucario aura wielder]

there`s been a few cards mistranslated with the dp block but most of them aren`t that diffrent that`s probably why they don`t errata them.

[Porii Sames]

I agree with PokePop on this one; it won Worlds TWICE. And SURELY there's a time where it mattered.

Is there any way to clarify this with P!P?

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by Porii Sames

Is there any way to clarify this with P!P?

'Pop says he will pass it along. If it's an issue they'll look into it.

@Pop: Inviting Strike was kind of in debate/limbo all year though, wasn't it? It's kind of an odd case and certainly a lot more important than whether or not you can target Luxray with the backlash (not to discredit your examples!).

[baby mario]

So . . . if they errata'd it, what would it mean if Luxray X was the only card on your Field?

Could it self-damage then?

Would you not be allowed to use Flash Impact?

Would you be able to avoid the damage completely?

[Porii Sames]

Probably the 3rd option; it doesn't HAVE to do the damage. It's like hitting Quagsire GL.

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by Porii Sames

Probably the 3rd option; it doesn't HAVE to do the damage. It's like hitting Quagsire GL.

Not really - if you choose to hit Quagsire GL, it's still a valid target but there's an effect preventing the damage. Luxray wouldn't even be a valid target.

[ShadowCard]

Kayle, it is a contradiction to say a card is correctly translated until an errata is given. If the card is correctly translated, an errata is not needed.

Notice I never said that Bangiras is error-free. You are right, we don't know that the alternative translation doesn't contain a mistake. However, just because they are unofficial does not mean they should be held as inaccurate. You are right to point out they aren't official, but it is wrong to connect that with accuracy or reliability. Bangiras's translations are a tool. Rather than attempt to discredit the person who has an alternative translation, we should do something constructive by attempting to prove that the card is correctly translated (so, Bangiras's translation is in error) or prove that the card is incorrectly translated (so, the card's translation is in error). Your attempt to claim incorrectness as being correct is simply making excuses. Let's put excuses aside and work finding out which translation is wrong

Kayle, it occurs to me that maybe you are a victim of poor wording? Reading over what you said, were you highlighting that we are supposed to continue playing the card as written until we are told otherwise by the Rules Team, and that no one should play by an unofficial translation, because the alternative translation needs to work its way through proper channels to verify it? If this is in fact what you were getting it, it doesn't say anything about the accuracy/reliability of Bangiras's translation, just that it needs to be double-checked like any source should be

Originally Posted by Kayle

Not really - if you choose to hit Quagsire GL, it's still a valid target but there's an effect preventing the damage. Luxray wouldn't even be a valid target.

That is where it gets interesting, isn't it? A player can currently T2 Luxray GL lvX and Flash Impact for the win even if Luxray GL lvX is the only pokemon the player has in play. If the alternative translation is correct, that option is no longer doable.

[Chairman Kaga]

自分のポケモン1匹にも、弱点・抵抗力に関係なく、30ダメージ。

jibun no pokemon 1 hiki nimo , jakuten . teikouryoku ni kankei naku , 30 dame^ji .

Deal 30 damage to 1 of your Pokemon (do not apply Weakness or Resistance).

Nothing to see here, move on.

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by ShadowCard

Kayle, it is a contradiction to say a card is correctly translated until an errata is given. If the card is correctly translated, an errata is not needed.

READREADREAD

The English card is the final authority on ... the English card. If there is no errata, it was correctly translated IN EFFECT.

IN EFFECT. I could point to any card out there without errata and you would say that it is correctly translated and I would ask "How do you know? Did you translate the card yourself?" No, you didn't, so how do you know? You don't! Your statement "if the card is correctly translated, errata is not needed" cannot be determined as true from our point of view because we cannot determine if the card is correctly translated. All we can determine is if there is errata.

I apologize for the ferocity, but nothing quite gets my goat like having to repost the same point multiple times... ><

Notice I never said that Bangiras is error-free. You are right, we don't know that the alternative translation doesn't contain a mistake. However, just because they are unofficial does not mean they should be held as inaccurate. You are right to point out they aren't official, but it is wrong to connect that with accuracy or reliability. Bangiras's translations are a tool. Rather than attempt to discredit the person who has an alternative translation, we should do something constructive by attempting to prove that the card is correctly translated (so, Bangiras's translation is in error) or prove that the card is incorrectly translated (so, the card's translation is in error). Your attempt to claim incorrectness as being correct is simply making excuses.

I find your point of view slightly ludicrous because there is nothing either of us could really do that could not be done better by someone else.

The only thing either of us can contribute to this topic is this argument, and our own beliefs on the translation. I shared mine. That is all.

Kayle, it occurs to me that maybe you are a victim of poor wording? Reading over what you said, were you highlighting that we are supposed to continue playing the card as written until we are told otherwise by the Rules Team, and that no one should play by an unofficial translation, because the alternative translation needs to work its way through proper channels to verify it? If this is in fact what you were getting it, it doesn't say anything about the accuracy/reliability of Bangiras's translation, just that it needs to be double-checked like any source should be

...That's sort of what I was saying. Not quite, but rather close.

Going back to my limited knowledge of the Neo Slowking incident: if a card is "mistranslated" but is never corrected, it is to be played however it was translated, and whether or not there is a mistake is entirely subjective if it can even be determined at all. Neo Slowking was never corrected (or at least not very quickly), was it? We can say that it was "mistranslated" (and technically, we are right) but there is no real way for us to confirm that: PoP is responsible for that translation and when they translate a card, it's been translated. That's it. As for Luxray, We are not the authorities on this, nor is Bangiras, and while I respect the goal of using the translations to bring this apparent discrepancy to light, the card has been in common circulation and play for multiple seasons. This is its third year in legal play.

A more recent card? Perfectly reasonable thing to question. The only reason I stand (stood) where I am (did) is because this card has seen so much play already and has been so central to the metagame for so long that I would find it absolutely amazing if PoP actually only now realized that they needed to correct the card. Even if it is "wrong", PoP obviously doesn't mind it how it is!