Call energy

[mrbusterman11]

Some people say if you run call you should run 3 or 4.
Is it worth it to run 1 or maybe 2.
Looking for some feedback/advice
Thanks

[LegendaryLugia]

In any deck that requires Colourless energy to attack, run 4 Call.

[cmak37]

Originally Posted by LegendaryLugia

In any deck that requires Colourless energy to attack, run 4 Call.

So if I have a Dunsparce donk deck, then I should run 4 call? Thanks for the advice!

;)

[LegendaryLugia]

Sorry, any deck that requires Colourless energy to attack (and is not a donk deck).

[xcfrisco]

before you ask yourself should i run call?, always ask yourself what does call do that it does better than other cards.

As an energy card, single colorless energy is pretty inferior to any colored energy. So as a card that meets energy requirements, call a pretty bad card. It also only works on the active pokemon, so attaching it to a mono colored-energy attacker is effectively a waste of an energy attachment that turn (ie you fall behind a turn on energy attachments). Lastly, a lot of decks have attacks that have much better utility T1 than getting two pokemon on the bench. When you go 2nd, call energy isn't nearly as good imo. Pokemon Collector does what call does better(and is probably the best supporter you can use T1 unless you're playing SP and want to Cyrus instead, but even that is debateable).

HOWEVER, call does something no other can do. Gets basics on the bench when you go first. This does a number of things, helps prevent you from getting donked, allows you to start evolving basics T2, increases the amount of pokemon you have in play for things like power spray and jumpluff's main attack, etc.

So first to see if your deck even warrants call energy, what kind of deck are you running?

Lets fast forward and assume your deck would benefit competitively from running call energy than without it (I can think of only a handful of decks that are better suited not running call). The purpose of all my arguments is to show you call is a pretty bad card if you dont use it T1, maybe even T2 (although in this fast paced format, if call is your best/only attack T2 then you're probably going to lose the game, lol). So if you want to use Call T1, ESPECIALLY if you're going first, and if the card is not searchable and your draw options are limited cause its the beginning of the game, then the only way to start with call energy is to maximize the amount of call in your deck.

Using the "=1-HYPGEOMDIST (N, Z, X, Y)" syntax for Excel, we can calculate the odds for starting with call based on a 60 card deck (represented by Y), drawing 7 cards (Z), and going first (represented by N, where turn one is represented by the number 0). Now we just plug in for X based on 1-4 (the amount of Call energies in your deck).

Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 4 copies: 40%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 3 copies: 31.5%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 2 copies: 22%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 1 copies: 11.67%


At only 1-2 call energy, you're honestly going to get more utility in more of you games running other cards, even basic colored energy imo. This same formula can be used to calculate your odds of starting with a basic pokemon too in your opening hand.


PS. Someone check my math as I'm not 100% sure on this, lol

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by cmak37

So if I have a Dunsparce donk deck, then I should run 4 call? Thanks for the advice!

;)

anyone with the experience to build a donk deck should know better than to run four call in them anyway...

I wouldn't run Call in a Mew deck centered around AMU, though, even though Uxie can use it. Etc etc. It's getting to be more and more of a judgement call.

As far as actual numbers, two is pretty useless, but 3 or 4 is up to the builder. I don't run 3 in anything except Dialga. It's either 4 or 0.

---------- Post added 01/03/2011 at 11:04 AM ----------

Xfrisco, I'm pretty sure that math is right.

[Happiny13]

4 is nice with power spray, but if that's not your focus as SP decks are flexible then you could go for 3. 2 is okay in certain decks, but it's usually not worth it.

[Rogue Archetype]

That USED to be the old adage ("4 or none") because the call didn't serve much of a purpose if you didn't start it.

However, with cards like Energy Exchanger, you very well could play around with running TECH energies now like 2 call and 2 recover energy, 3 DCE, and just exchange for whatever is needed. Energy Exchanger is sorta like have a VS Seeker for special energies! (then you can junk arm when it's needed again).

Just a thought :/

BUt... yeah... I'd still run 4 if you need to get that bench down.

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by Rogue Archetype

That USED to be the old adage ("4 or none") because the call didn't serve much of a purpose if you didn't start it.

However, with cards like Energy Exchanger, you very well could play around with running TECH energies now like 2 call and 2 recover energy, 3 DCE, and just exchange for whatever is needed. Energy Exchanger is sorta like have a VS Seeker for special energies! (then you can junk arm when it's needed again).

Just a thought :/

It'd work like that for something like DCE, but the thing about running "4 or 0" with Call is that the whole reason you run so many is to increase your chances of starting with it. If you need to Exchanger for it, you didn't start with it and it doesn't do you any good. Odds are if you could have played Exchanger on your first turn you didn't need Call anyway.

[xcfrisco]

Bah I knew there was something a little off with my numbers, i forgot to add-in that you get to draw a card on your first turn too.

These are the updated numbers:

Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 4 copies: 47.5%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 3 copies: 39%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 2 copies: 30%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 1 copies: 19%

So by dropping you Call enregy count from 4 to 2, out of a 10 game set, on average, you will have 2 less games where you will start with call energy. Not worth it man imo. After seeing the numbers it seems like 3 is the lowest you can go, but its hard to argue against that magic 47.5% number (that means that roughly 1 out every 2 games you will start with call energy!)

Its all about consistency. Call energy (plus some things like Uxie LA and 2-4 Pokemon Collector) will greatly increase your decks consistency in getting down basic pokemon early game. With this fast-paced metagame where games are over in T4 or less, I dont think one can afford to not run this card!

And if you're not running a heavy call energy count, 4 Pokemon Collector is almost mandatory imo.

[Barkjon]

Totally either 3 or 4, otherwise it is a waste.

[mrbusterman11]

So for example 1 or 2 call energy in luxchomp
Would be a waste because I could be making the deck more consistent???

[Mama_Luigi]

Yush
You def want 4 in luxchomp though

[prodigal_fanboy]

Originally Posted by Rogue Archetype

That USED to be the old adage ("4 or none") because the call didn't serve much of a purpose if you didn't start it.

However, with cards like Energy Exchanger, you very well could play around with running TECH energies now like 2 call and 2 recover energy, 3 DCE, and just exchange for whatever is needed. Energy Exchanger is sorta like have a VS Seeker for special energies! (then you can junk arm when it's needed again).

Just a thought :/

BUt... yeah... I'd still run 4 if you need to get that bench down.

Name a single deck that runs Energy Exchanger that doesn't max its most valuable special energy, at least.

Name a single deck that runs Energy Exchanger (Dialgachomp is the only one I can think of with repeat CC wins that might run it, some Luxchomp builds tech it).

Dialga and Luxchomp both also max out the special energy they would most frequently grab with EE (Special Metal for Dialga and DCE for both).

Granted, on occasion Dialga may elect to grab Warp with EE, but that is more a factor of Warp's benefit doesn't justify running more when you factor in space concerns.

Run 4 Call Energy. If you think you can get away with three, you're probably wrong. If you're not, you would know enough about deckbuilding to not start this thread.

Run four.

[RB Golbat]

Originally Posted by xcfrisco

Bah I knew there was something a little off with my numbers, i forgot to add-in that you get to draw a card on your first turn too.

These are the updated numbers:

Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 4 copies: 47.5%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 3 copies: 39%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 2 copies: 30%
Odds of starting with 1 or more call energies in when running 1 copies: 19%

So by dropping you Call enregy count from 4 to 2, out of a 10 game set, on average, you will have 2 less games where you will start with call energy. Not worth it man imo. After seeing the numbers it seems like 3 is the lowest you can go, but its hard to argue against that magic 47.5% number (that means that roughly 1 out every 2 games you will start with call energy!)

Its all about consistency. Call energy (plus some things like Uxie LA and 2-4 Pokemon Collector) will greatly increase your decks consistency in getting down basic pokemon early game. With this fast-paced metagame where games are over in T4 or less, I dont think one can afford to not run this card!

And if you're not running a heavy call energy count, 4 Pokemon Collector is almost mandatory imo.

Not to rain on your parade, but do these numbers include the chance that the card is prized (since between your opening hand and your first draw, you put 6 cards in your prizes)?

[xcfrisco]

Originally Posted by RB Golbat

Not to rain on your parade, but do these numbers include the chance that the card is prized (since between your opening hand and your first draw, you put 6 cards in your prizes)?

lol no I did not but I dont think it makes a huge difference. For simplicity's sake I took the pool of all available cards after you've drawn your first 7. The math gets convoluted cause then we have to factor the odds of having a call energy prized, and you also have no knowledge of whats in you prizes.

I'll take a stab at it, but for only 4 Call energy. These are the odds of top decking a call energy depending on how many are prized and assuming you didn't start with any call energy in your opening 7 card hand because you wouldn't need to "top-deck" another call energy if you already have one in your hand (no fancy math needed for this)

Odds of top-decking a call energy while having 0 of them prized: 8.5%
Odds of top-decking a call energy while having 1 of them prized: 6%
Odds of top-decking a call energy while having 2 of them prized: 4%
Odds of top-decking a call energy while having 3 of them prized: 2%
Odds of top-decking a call energy while having 4 of them prized: 0%


So we have a total of 6 different scenarios here.

Odds of starting with at least one or more call energy in your opening 7 card hand: 40%
Odds of starting with one or more call energy with opening hand plus being able to draw one more card 0%, 42%, 44%, 46%, 48.5% (different percentages based on how many call energy are prized)

Your true average over a course of like a million draws will hover around the 46-48% range (which is what the simple math that doesnt take prizes into account tells us) because the odds of prizing 3-4 call energy is abysmally low. Though, the logic for figuring out the odds of having X amount cards prized is escaping me at the moment, lol.

[Nekizalb]

I say it's not worth it to run 1 or 2 Call Energy because the chance of starting with one when you need it is too little. But, as xcfrisco's math shows, running 4 could make a deck relatively consistent, and thus worth it.