Fossils plausible???

[Melee Mewtwo]

Kabutops is a cool Pokemon and I was in the mood to toy with him. So, naturally I looked at Kabutops AR which had interested me but never convinced me that it could be competitive. However, things have changed since then and the latest set has brought two new cards to the table that may redeem this awesome Pokemon. The first one is Seeker. Now it isn't too terribly spectacular, but it can be used with Omanyte's PokePower to get a fossil from the discard back into the hand. (And maybe do something nice with a Stage 1's PokePower in the meantime) The next card is far more useful. Junk Arm. Yes, Junk Arm can easily put a discarded Fossil back into my hand, or any other useful trainer for the matter. So, I am hoping that a fast, consistent deck can be made with Kabutops being able to keep up the Primal Scythes easily. Here are some cards I have considered.

Kabutops AR: The main attacker. With Dome Fossils's Rock Reaction PokeBody, getting a quick 70 isn't too difficult.

Kabutops MD: Ehhh, trainer lock could be useful. Not too good outside of that.

Kabuto MD: It has a PokePower that helps me set up AND it gets around trainer lock.

Kabuto AR: Also useful to setup. It makes going first with a Dome Fossil not so bad. With just a Dome Fossil and fighting Energy, I can get out a Kabuto who can search for much wanted evolutions.

Omanyte MD; Great for recovery. Can be combo-ed with Seeker. It also gets around trainer lock.

Omastar MD: Primal Swirl FTW. Useful to get rid of annoying Vileplumes. It also helps with my Gyarados match-up. With Warp Point/Cyclone Energy/Circulator/whatever I can Primal Swirl to make that big, bad, tank become a puny, little Magikarp. It can also be used to get cheap KOs on any damaged, evolved Pokemon.

Aerodactyl MD: it's PokeBody looks a lot better at first glance than it does after some consideration. The only thing I can see it be useful for is to help a Belted Kabutops OHKO a Garchomp C Lv.X arter it uses Healing Breath. (IF it uses it)

Aerodactyl AR: Searches for Fossils. This can fuel Kabutops or just help me set up.


Why not Omanyte and Omastar AR: Omanyte's Collect is nice, but I shouldn't be in the situation where I need it in the first place. Omastar may seem to work well with Kabutops, but it requires a discard full of Fossils. So, either

A) I load my list with needless fossils, thus killing consistency.

or

B) I discard all of the Fossils I would have used for my support Pokemon, thus crippling Kabutops effectiveness.

Either way, it's a two energy attack on a Stage 2 that has to be rebuilt up after use. Just not worth it.


So, can Kabutops be a competitive threat? How do you think its match-ups are with current popular decks? All comments are appreciated. (I'll form a skeleton list soon)

[grassmaster239]

There are 2 problems
Spiritomb
Vileplume

[Melee Mewtwo]

Can you explain? Kabuto and Omanyte MD help me set up around trainer lock. Omaster MD takes care of Vileplume with Primal Swirl. I may try Cyclone Energy which could deal with Tomb. Either that, or I can just attach a Fighting energy to my Dome Fossil to evolve into Kabuto. Then, drop Kabutops and Primal Scythe for the KO (Don't forget about BTS). They are annoying, but it seems like they can still be dealt with. I could be wrong though, Theorymon can be VERY misleading.

[espeon1]

He means that you can't play the fossils onto the bench while under trainer lock. Most players would have 2 tombs out anyway, just in case you're able to set up even though trainer locked.

[Melee Mewtwo]

That is what I figured, but I should have probably explained what Kabuto's and Omanyte's PokePowers do. Both have a PokePower that lets me flip a coin and if I get heads search my deck (if Kabuto) or discard (if Omanyte) for a Fossil and put it on my bench. Thus, allowing me to get around trainer lock.

[Tagrineth]

The problem is you auto-lose to a Spiritomb start if you start with your non-Fossil basic in your deck (which IS required).



edit: OH my god. Mew Prime. LOL. Send Off Kabutops if you're up against Trainer lock. hahahaha.

[FunnyBear]

We've all built this deck. It was obvious from the pre-release. The reason you don't see it around is that it didn't work too well. Even against non-trainer lock, its clunky and hard to get things out. There's just so many more ways of searching out a Pokemon than a trainer, call energy is useless, etc.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Tagrineth

The problem is you auto-lose to a Spiritomb start if you start with your non-Fossil basic in your deck (which IS required).

Actually, there was a ruling change (not sure when exactly), as far as starting hands go fossils are like any other basic Pokemon. Meaning, if i start with a Dome and a Uxie, I can put the Dome active and keep the Uxie in my hand.

Originally Posted by FunnyBear

We've all built this deck. It was obvious from the pre-release. The reason you don't see it around is that it didn't work too well. Even against non-trainer lock, its clunky and hard to get things out. There's just so many more ways of searching out a Pokemon than a trainer, call energy is useless, etc.

Yes, but (correct me if I'm wrong) everyone was combining Kabutops with Omastar AR, so of course it didn't work. What I am suggesting is just using Kabutops with some fossil support to have fast and reliable Primal Scythes. Which, is something that I think wasn't really possible until the advent of Junk Arm.

Just to give you all an idea of what I have in mind, here is a quick list...

Pokemon:17
0-4-4 Kabutops (2 AR, 2 MD- 4 AR)
0-3-1 Omastar (MD-MD) (Omanyte is to recover fossils in the discard and Omastar is a tech to help with things like Gyarados and Vileplume)
0-2 Aerodactyl AR (Searches for fossils. When I don't need to search anymore, Aerodactyl can be Scooped. The Old Amber can then be used for Primal Scythe and Aerodactyl can be used to help pay for Junk Arm.)
2 Uxie
1 Azelf

T/S/St: 34
4 Dome Fossil
3 Helix Fossil
2 Old Amber
4 Fossil Excavator (Great in fossil decks)
2 Seeker (Helps with donks and is a guaranteed SSU)
4 Junk Arm (Gets rid of unneeded cards. Thins out hand, which works well with Uxie. Gets back discarded Fossils to reuse.)
1 Vs. Seeker (can be abused with Junk Arm. Good to get back a needed Supporter.)
4 SSU (Great to reuse Uxies. "heal" damaged Pokemon. Extra Primal Swirls.)
4 BYS (Thanks to Rock Reaction, Kabutops plays like a Stage and Omastar is just a tech, so BTS is more useful than Rare Candies.)
2 Expert Belt
1 Palmer's Contribution (I can use Powers to recover fossils, but not the evolutions.)
1 Warp Point (Generally useful plus it combos well with Primal Swirl)
2 Bebe's Search (To make the deck not so supporter heavy. Puts Kabutos back in the deck for Rock Reaction. Can search for Aerodactyl, which Fossil Excavator can not.)

Energy: 9
7 Fighting
2 Cyclone (Useful to force away lone Spiritombs. Combos with Primal Swirl to get rid of threats like Gyarados.Reusable when the Pokemon it is attached to is brought back to the hand via SSU or Seeker.)


Just for clarification (I'm really bad at making what I'm asking clear): I'm not trying to make this out to be BDIF or some ingenious, super awesome, rogue deck that I (some creative genius) came up with and plan on using it to win big tournaments. I'm just wondering that perhaps Kabutops may actually now be a viable, competitive threat and I want to hear what everybody else thinks. I could be terribly wrong, and if I am, I just want to know why. Junk Arm really seems to do wonders for this deck, since not only can it be used to easily refuel Primal Scythe but it also helps get rid of useless clutter in my hand allowing Uxie to become VERY useful. (especially when you thrown in SSU) So, how do you think it matches up against other popular decks like Luzchomp, Gyarados, Dialgachomp, ect? Is it something that could establish a reputation? (even if it is only as a tier 2 deck)

[Tagrineth]

Originally Posted by Melee Mewtwo

Actually, there was a ruling change (not sure when exactly), as far as starting hands go fossils are like any other basic Pokemon. Meaning, if i start with a Dome and a Uxie, I can put the Dome active and keep the Uxie in my hand.

There was a blatantly implied "Start with your non-Fossil basic and no Fossils already in hand" there, but thanks for assuming I don't know the rules.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Oops sorry, I misunderstood your post to mean that Spiritomb would kill me because I would be stuck playing a non-fossil basic due to the ruling that you can not open with a fossil. That was why I informed you of the new ruling. I did not mean to imply that you were a noob.

Originally Posted by Tagrineth

The problem is you auto-lose to a Spiritomb start if you start with your non-Fossil basic in your deck (which IS required).

What made me think you were going by the old ruling was the "which is required" bit. I took it to mean that the old ruling required me to open with a non-fossil basic thus allowing Spiritomb to shut me down. Fortunately, I now know better. Unfortunately, I don't understand what you meant by your post, particularly that last bit. Could I ask you to go through the trouble of explaining it to me, I somehow always find a way to confuse myself with the simplest of things.

[Tagrineth]

What I mean is, your deck list is required to have at least one legitimate basic pokemon in it.

And you WILL get hands where you start with that pokemon, and no fossils. If your opponent then leads with Spiritomb... you just lost the game.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Required by the rules or just that I should really make sure to remember Uxie?

[MegaVelocibot]

Originally Posted by Melee Mewtwo

Required by the rules or just that I should really make sure to remember Uxie?

A quick answer for you comes from the theme deck rulebooks:

Originally Posted by HS Triumphant Rulebook, p.17

How Do You Make a New Deck?
To make a new deck, start by looking at the different Energy types on your various Pokémon
that you want to have in your deck. Your deck should probably include one or two Energy
types, and you can choose to add some Colorless () Pokémon if you like. If you just
choose one Energy type, you will always have the right kind of Energy for your Pokémon
but not as much variety. If you have several Energy types, you will have more Pokémon to
choose from, but you will run the risk of sometimes not drawing the right type of Energy for
your Pokémon. It is a game rule that you must have at least 1 Basic Pokémon in your deck.
(A “Basic Pokémon” is considered a Pokémon with “Basic” as the Pokémon’s Evolution Stage.)

[Melee Mewtwo]

Oh, I feel stupid now . Thank you for informing me, I didn't know that. (Well, I knew you had to have a basic, I just didn't think that fossils wouldn't count.)

Okay, so now that I understand that... Yes, not opening with a fossil against a Spiritomb isn't good. My only hope at that point would be to use Cyclone energy to force away Spiritomb. Double Tomb stops that though. I suppose it's kind of like VileGar staring with Gastly against a Sableye. There's nothing you can do about it, even if you might have had a chance of winning if you had a bit more luck with your opening hand. Trainer Lock isn't the only thing that Kabutops will have to fight against. Let's take a quick look at Kabutops vs. Popular decks in the format.

vs. Luxchom: Kabutops abuses Luxray's wearknees. Garchomp can snipe the supporting Pokemon on the bench. MD Kabutops may be useful here. Kabutops 2HKOs Garchomp. Garchomp 2HKOs Kabutops.

Vs. DialgaChomp: DGX shuts down Rock Reaction. Deafen. Garchomp.


Vs. Vilegar: Already discussed. If Kabutops gets past the initial trainer lock, it has a fighting chance.


Vs. Gyarados: G-dos has resistance. Primal Swirl.


Vs. Sablelock: Sablelock can sometimes shut down any deck. Garchomp. (I don't know much about Sablelock to really say mcuh)


Just to start giving a bit of a idea. Outside of DialgaChomp, I don't see any obvious wins or loses so far. Going into more depth may change that.

[yoyofsho16]

Why are y'all flipping out about running 1 Basic? Lol I think he would do that for setup anyways.

[Melee Mewtwo]

They weren't "flipping out", they were explaining to me how starting with a non-fossil against a Spirirtomb is pretty much auto-loss. They were also informing me of a ruling I wasn't aware of.