So, is SableDonk really going to ruin BRs?

[ajhawk]

I'm just curious, but how much testing has been done with SableDonk against a MD-On ReshiBoar or Zekrom/Magnezone Prime deck?

I know J-Wittz's video was against a SP deck. In his video he pulled of around 120ish? (???) damage.

Can SableDonk pull it off against a deck that runs 4 130hp basics AND 4 Spiritomb Ar along with some Magnemite or Tepig? I know that SableDonk is a beast, but can it handle that?

What happens if you SableDonk cannot handle this? Will it drop in play and really let the current format open up? Will it keep being played at a high level and the format consist of only 3ish decks?

I can honestly see ReshiBoar or Zekrom/Magnezon Prime hold it's own. Getting out three basics will not be a huge problem, and with one likely having 130hp, one likely being Spiritomb Ar, and one other, I am curious to see testing results of this match-up.

[z-man]

You're very narrow minded in this regard. Reshiboar and Zekzone (or just straight Zekrom) do do better against Sabledonk than most decks. In a good scenario, Sabledonk cannot beat these decks. The problem is that these decks are subpar against some other decks in the format. I would have difficulty justifying myself playing any form of Zekrom as I have found that it has serious difficult against SP. Reshiboar... I have yet to test a lot in the current format (I am excited for HGSS-on), but I would theorymon that it has difficulty setting up against SP. Spray really hurts decks like that. It may have to play Spiritomb to keep competitive, but I don't know how competitive it can be. While both decks do well against Sabledonk, I could not justify myself playing them in BRs. I may as well be playing Sabledonk myself because Resh and Zek really rely on good matchups, so, if I were to play the random win game, I would rather play something that can win games easily against a multitude of decks... thus Sabledonk.

[Naki Feralkin]

If it does, it does. Battle Roads is a low K-value tournament. I understand there will be a lot of disheartened players coming out of BR's due to the disgusting factor, however a noble sacrifice in a low K-tourney as opposed to witnessing this garbage at nationals. I'll take it.

Truth be told, I think I can survive the donk nonsense, but I still run Sableye, which is still the key point being addressed in this potential format shift.

[Redados1]

I played Sabledonk at the modified tournament at the prerelease. I needed an Expert belt to win. I have four cards in hand: 3 Victory Medals and a Dual Ball. I flip 8 tails. That was my only loss: where I whiffed on the donk. Just sayin'.

[DarthPika]

Just run 4 zekrom, 4 resherim, 4 snorlax, 4 *instert something big and fat* as your only pokemon, lose to everything else, but beat Sabledonk EVERY time. :p

[TheDancingPeanut]

My brother and I played 10 games this weekend. He played SD, I played T-Tar with Sableye.
7 out of 10 games ended in one turn.

[supertyranitar]

Uh, yeah, Sabledonk IS going to be a huge issue, and will probably ruin BRs. And, even if it does not end us, the fact of the matter is, things like Gyarados get to be put on overdrive. The BW rules do not need to mix with these overly powerful cards. Period.

[Pikabruce]

At Leage tonight I played 3 games with Sabledonk against ReshiBoar, but ReshiBoar had 4 Sableye in his deck, not 4 Spiritomb. Sabledonk won 2 of the 3 games, including winning a game which had a Sableye vs. Sableye start and ReshiBoar got to go first. (He Impersonated a Collector, but never got a chance to lay the 3 Pokemon onto the bench.) Of course, just 3 games doesn't mean anything.

[chriscobi634]

Yes it will most likely ruin BRs. But even if PTCi doesn't get the numbers they expect at BRs for justifying a HGSS-on format for Nats they should look at all the people on these threads who all have already started planning for a HGSS-on format. As it just goes to show how tveryone is sick of the current format, even before the B/W rules everyone was already sick of that format. WE WANT CHANGE!!

[Happiny13]

You can underestimate it until you see it work. My friend donked me when I had 170 HP in play.

[ajhawk]

Originally Posted by z-man

You're very narrow minded in this regard. Reshiboar and Zekzone (or just straight Zekrom) do do better against Sabledonk than most decks. In a good scenario, Sabledonk cannot beat these decks. The problem is that these decks are subpar against some other decks in the format. I would have difficulty justifying myself playing any form of Zekrom as I have found that it has serious difficult against SP. Reshiboar... I have yet to test a lot in the current format (I am excited for HGSS-on), but I would theorymon that it has difficulty setting up against SP. Spray really hurts decks like that. It may have to play Spiritomb to keep competitive, but I don't know how competitive it can be. While both decks do well against Sabledonk, I could not justify myself playing them in BRs. I may as well be playing Sabledonk myself because Resh and Zek really rely on good matchups, so, if I were to play the random win game, I would rather play something that can win games easily against a multitude of decks... thus Sabledonk.

First, you are very rude. I was simply asking a question that I was curios about. That is what message boards are for. To immediately call someone out as "narrow minded" is both immature and lazy.

Second, Reshiboar does not get owned by power spray in the current format. Inferno Fandango is not sprayable and a good list for the current format will either run multiple PONTS or Engineer's for draw/refresh along with Ninetales to get around the Power Spray. It might even run some. gasp, Judge.

Third, there have been many people playtest both Reshiram and Zekrom against SP with the results being even for Reshiram and only slightly-unfavorable for Zekrom.

Fourth, if SableDonk is truely going to be everywhere at BR, then (given that you are not playing SableDonk) playing a deck with a good match up against the BDIF is not a terrible play.

Fifth, ReshiBoar, in the MD-on format, has extremely favorable match ups against most of the non-SP decks.

---------- Post added 05/02/2011 at 11:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Pikabruce

At Leage tonight I played 3 games with Sabledonk against ReshiBoar, but ReshiBoar had 4 Sableye in his deck, not 4 Spiritomb. Sabledonk won 2 of the 3 games, including winning a game which had a Sableye vs. Sableye start and ReshiBoar got to go first. (He Impersonated a Collector, but never got a chance to lay the 3 Pokemon onto the bench.) Of course, just 3 games doesn't mean anything.

In the current format, Spiritomb Ar is hands down the better option for ReshiBoar. So, I would be interested in testing that match up.

---------- Post added 05/02/2011 at 11:50 PM ----------

Originally Posted by TheDancingPeanut

My brother and I played 10 games this weekend. He played SD, I played T-Tar with Sableye.
7 out of 10 games ended in one turn.

Let me just get this out there: I KNOW SABLEDONK IS VERY GOOD AGAINST ALL THE DECKS THAT WE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT.

I want to know if it wins 50+% of the time against ReshiBoar and to a lesser extent Zekrom.

T-Tar does not help to answer that. T-Tar only has the Spiritomb Ar to counter SableDonk. The two decks I'm curious about have 130 hp basics to take a beating.

I am not saying that I know the answer. I was just asking.

[Jaeger]

Originally Posted by z-man

You're very narrow minded in this regard. Reshiboar and Zekzone (or just straight Zekrom) do do better against Sabledonk than most decks. In a good scenario, Sabledonk cannot beat these decks. The problem is that these decks are subpar against some other decks in the format. I would have difficulty justifying myself playing any form of Zekrom as I have found that it has serious difficult against SP. Reshiboar... I have yet to test a lot in the current format (I am excited for HGSS-on), but I would theorymon that it has difficulty setting up against SP. Spray really hurts decks like that. It may have to play Spiritomb to keep competitive, but I don't know how competitive it can be. While both decks do well against Sabledonk, I could not justify myself playing them in BRs. I may as well be playing Sabledonk myself because Resh and Zek really rely on good matchups, so, if I were to play the random win game, I would rather play something that can win games easily against a multitude of decks... thus Sabledonk.

In a good scenario Sabledonk won't beat anything, the deck takes advantage of going first and the ablitity to KO multible Pokemon.

---------- Post added 05/03/2011 at 12:32 AM ----------

Originally Posted by ajhawk

First, you are very rude. I was simply asking a question that I was curios about. That is what message boards are for. To immediately call someone out as "narrow minded" is both immature and lazy.

You mean like asking a question on an online message board instead of testing the match up yourself?

[ajhawk]

Originally Posted by Jaeger

In a good scenario Sabledonk won't beat anything, the deck takes advantage of going first and the ablitity to KO multible Pokemon.

---------- Post added 05/03/2011 at 12:32 AM ----------



You mean like asking a question on an online message board instead of testing the match up yourself?

Yes, maybe "lazy" was a bad choice of word, but what I meant is that it's lazy to call me narrow minded without knowing anything about me or what my limitations are.

First, I am not nor pretend to be an expert on SableDonk. To be honest, I could probably only put together 30-40 cards from a solid SableDonk list. I do not know, with any depth, how to make a donk deck work really well. So, I realize my limitations as a donk deck builder and am asking the community for help. It does not good to test with crappy lists. The results do not mean anything.

Second, I do not have a testing partner. In my town, no one else my age plays Pokemon competitively and unfortunately RedShark is not updated yet for Black and White (I have not seen this on PokeBeach). So, not only would the deck list I would test for SableDonk be crappy, I would have to play solitaire games where I am also not good at maximizing the effectiveness of donk decks. Again, my testing would be relatively worthless.

I recognize my limitations and ask for other people's opinions/help where I fail.

[Naki Feralkin]

I also find it more amusing when you win a coin flip against Sableye with your own Sableye and then Pokemon Collector a Mesprit.. Oh whoops, no more Crobat G/Uxie. I'll just set up now, thanks.

[drug_duck]

No. How are you able to lay the Mesprit on the Bench if you Collector'd it T1? And your being able to Impersonate a Collector has only a 50% shot only at achieving that, the other 50% of time you get donked before you even get to draw a card.

[Lunar Wing]

@drug duck: A little behind the announcements, aren't you? The new Black and White rules make it so that the person going first can use Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums on their first turn. If you win the coin flip with your own Sableye like Naki Feralkin said then you would be able to use Pokemon Collector turn one for your Mesprit, and play it down in the same turn.

[flariados]

You would first have to have a collector in your hand when you play Mesprit. If you haven't got one in your opening hand your kind of done.

[drug_duck]

And if you didn't win the coin flip you're also done. I thought Naki meant impersonating a Collector but yes, still relies on good draw AND a coin flip win so my argument still stands. :P

[bullados]

I have two completely different, but also completely valid, answers to this question.

No. It will not ruin BRs. SableDonk is a roughly 60% win deck, almost regardless of the situation or the opponent. It will ruin days where a better player is simply not allowed a turn in his or her game. And it doesn't particularly care which Pokemon the opponent has in play either. But it also has a 40% loss rate, almost regardless of the opponent, and it loses straight to a Spiritomb start unless it either has a Collector or an Unown D and a Crobat. It will not win the majority of BRs.

Yes, it will ruin BRs. SableDonk is a roughly 60% win deck, almost regardless of the situation or the opponent. It will ruin days where a better player is simply not allowed a turn in his or her game. And it doesn't particularly care which Pokemon the opponent has in play either. It can and will run roughshod through virtually anything your opponent sets up on turn 1. It's the ultimate non-skill deck, it adversely affects how people build decks, and it denies opponents the chance to actually play the game. This is different from UxieDonk because SableDonk has the ability to manipulate the opening coin flip with a Sableye start, which is almost always a winning proposition.

[Jaeger]

Originally Posted by bullados

I have two completely different, but also completely valid, answers to this question.

No. It will not ruin BRs. SableDonk is a roughly 60% win deck, almost regardless of the situation or the opponent. It will ruin days where a better player is simply not allowed a turn in his or her game. And it doesn't particularly care which Pokemon the opponent has in play either. But it also has a 40% loss rate, almost regardless of the opponent, and it loses straight to a Spiritomb start unless it either has a Collector or an Unown D and a Crobat. It will not win the majority of BRs.

Yes, it will ruin BRs. SableDonk is a roughly 60% win deck, almost regardless of the situation or the opponent. It will ruin days where a better player is simply not allowed a turn in his or her game. And it doesn't particularly care which Pokemon the opponent has in play either. It can and will run roughshod through virtually anything your opponent sets up on turn 1. It's the ultimate non-skill deck, it adversely affects how people build decks, and it denies opponents the chance to actually play the game. This is different from UxieDonk because SableDonk has the ability to manipulate the opening coin flip with a Sableye start, which is almost always a winning proposition.

Ryan if your not playing Tomb its closer to 80%+ and if they start Sableye and go first I would say its well above 90%.

[Naki Feralkin]

Originally Posted by drug_duck

And if you didn't win the coin flip you're also done. I thought Naki meant impersonating a Collector but yes, still relies on good draw AND a coin flip win so my argument still stands. :P

You fail to realise you don't always need Collector. Bebe's Search can also tutor a Mesprit, plus you have the possibility of having someone else benched to lower the possibility of a donk, and with numerous chunky pokemon in the game still, that should also give you a hand.

All you need is a way to get to Mesprit and you've shut down their donk.

Also, no. I'm not impersonating. If anything, I'd attempt to collector/bebe's, then Impersonate for a Judge or an Initiative to really just ruin your day.

[Flareon]

I'm not predicting it to be that big of a deal. Serious players skip battle roads to preserve their ratings, the remaining players don't have access to the cards/don't know about it... so you will have a few jerk faces bored enough to "play to win" at a Battle Road - at least that's what I'm predicting.

[Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Flareon

I'm not predicting it to be that big of a deal. Serious players skip battle roads to preserve their ratings, the remaining players don't have access to the cards/don't know about it... so you will have a few jerk faces bored enough to "play to win" at a Battle Road - at least that's what I'm predicting.

Really did you just use the term "jerk face" and say that only bored players play to win at Battle Roads?

[headsrcool]

I predict the best players will use Sableye. We have only battle roads to prove a rotation is needed. In fact, I encourage everyone to use Sabledonk. The more illegitimate, the better.

[PokeMedic]

Originally Posted by headsrcool

In fact, I encourage everyone to use Sabledonk. The more illegitimate, the better.

The mere act of playing Sabledonk didn't make a person a jerk, but this certainly would. I considered doing this for the fun, but a lot of people are probably going to never forgive and never forget.