Does Donchamp have any bad matchups?

[Qwachansey]

[Carvanha]

Anyway, it has bad times with Yanmega prime, which could be a 'Bad matchup'.

[soul prodigy]

Yeah. Yanmega/Kingdra, one of the most popular expected decks, is almost an autoloss. RDL techs are problematic too.
Posted with Mobile style...

[DarthPika]

This is a joke, right?

[Qwachansey]

Hmmm better put a Lightning tech in that case. I could always add Bouffalant for RDL.

[Blitzer]

Originally Posted by soul prodigy

Yeah. Yanmega/Kingdra, one of the most popular expected decks, is almost an autoloss. RDL techs are problematic too.
Posted with Mobile style...

Completely disagree. Donchamp has quite a few techs for RDL, which is almost easy :P (Zoroark, Buffalo) and there is no such thing as an almost autoloss in the case of Donchamp. If Donchamp can manage to get the two champs switching I dont see Kingdra Yanmega coming back after a lot of one-shots :P And I actually dont think KingMega will be that big at all, it just became renowned from canadian nats, so people would have to have a LOT of faith in it to switch now.

People say Yanmega counters and beats Donchamp.. That is a lie.

But yes, you can say that Kingdra/Yanmega is a bad matchup, but I would say Donchamp has a good fighting chance in any matchup.

[The Light]

Originally Posted by Blitzer

Completely disagree. Donchamp has quite a few techs for RDL, which is almost easy :P (Zoroark, Buffalo) and there is no such thing as an almost autoloss in the case of Donchamp. If Donchamp can manage to get the two champs switching I dont see Kingdra Yanmega coming back after a lot of one-shots :P And I actually dont think KingMega will be that big at all, it just became renowned from canadian nats, so people would have to have a LOT of faith in it to switch now.

People say Yanmega counters and beats Donchamp.. That is a lie.

But yes, you can say that Kingdra/Yanmega is a bad matchup, but I would say Donchamp has a good fighting chance in any matchup.

Ok, enjoy starting with your bouf which will be stuck active half of the game. Good luck getting two champs switching when I knock out all of your machops. DonChamp is significantly slower than Kingdra/Yanmega which will be set up and destroying all of your basics by t3. I won't need to come back when all of your pokemon have been knocked out. It will be huge, I can guarentee it. Not really, it proved itself in the only credible HGSS-on format tournament.

[Redsteal]

Originally Posted by The Light

Ok, enjoy starting with your bouf which will be stuck active half of the game. Good luck getting two champs switching when I knock out all of your machops. DonChamp is significantly slower than Kingdra/Yanmega which will be set up and destroying all of your basics by t3. I won't need to come back when all of your pokemon have been knocked out. It will be huge, I can guarentee it. Not really, it proved itself in the only credible HGSS-on format tournament.

In Canada..... so no, now we will see this week when nats starts and all, and i play donchamp and all you have to do is put one ruins of alph in and your "bad mach up" becomes easier... and kingdra yanmega is a joke, it only worked cause its Canada and that none of the other hyped decks that are any good showed up and to prove my point zekrom won Canadian nationals, so that right there is a joke in itself

[Blitzer]

Originally Posted by The Light

Ok, enjoy starting with your bouf which will be stuck active half of the game. Good luck getting two champs switching when I knock out all of your machops. DonChamp is significantly slower than Kingdra/Yanmega which will be set up and destroying all of your basics by t3. I won't need to come back when all of your pokemon have been knocked out. It will be huge, I can guarentee it. Not really, it proved itself in the only credible HGSS-on format tournament.

Who says that I'll bench by bouf till you attack. Any smart player wont bench bouf till he/she knows that it is safe. I can say that I have only lost 3 games to Kingdra/Yanmega usuing Donchamp, and I can bet that you have NEVER tested the matchup because you obviously are theorymoning almost your entire argument as you probably have NO experience with Donchamp. Kingmega will definitely see play, but I do not expect it to be popular as the people playing it would only have less than a week to properly test it.

In my opinion, the only way Donchamp usually loses to the deck is if it gets t1-t2 judged. That is usually extremely difficult to come back from.

---------- Post added 07/06/2011 at 05:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Redsteal

In Canada..... so no, now we will see this week when nats starts and all, and i play donchamp and all you have to do is put one ruins of alph in and your "bad mach up" becomes easier... and kingdra yanmega is a joke, it only worked cause its Canada and that none of the other hyped decks that are any good showed up and to prove my point zekrom won Canadian nationals, so that right there is a joke in itself

Alph isnt really needed, as Champ one shots Yanmega and Kingdra anyway. Alph just is unneeded weight.

[vegitalian]

Originally Posted by Redsteal

In Canada..... so no, now we will see this week when nats starts and all, and i play donchamp and all you have to do is put one ruins of alph in and your "bad mach up" becomes easier... and kingdra yanmega is a joke, it only worked cause its Canada and that none of the other hyped decks that are any good showed up and to prove my point zekrom won Canadian nationals, so that right there is a joke in itself

"it only worked cause its Canada"
"all you have to do is put one ruins of alph in"
"none of the other hyped decks that are any good showed up"

Hilarious.

Seriously though, Donchamp can't take a whole lot of disruption, and in order to one-shot, it needs three turns of energy attachments, which are all gone in one KO. Donphan is easily one-shot by Kingdra (for 1 energy + 2 spray splashes), and cannot return the KO. Donchamp is also not an auto-win against Magneboar, or Reshiboar. Even Typhlosion (of all things) can screw it up fairly well.

Is it good? Yes, but it does have several bad matchups out there.

[Blitzer]

Originally Posted by vegitalian

"it only worked cause its Canada"
"all you have to do is put one ruins of alph in"
"none of the other hyped decks that are any good showed up"

Hilarious.

Seriously though, Donchamp can't take a whole lot of disruption, and in order to one-shot, it needs three turns of energy attachments, which are all gone in one KO. Donphan is easily one-shot by Kingdra (for 1 energy + 2 spray splashes), and cannot return the KO. Donchamp is also not an auto-win against Magneboar, or Reshiboar. Even Typhlosion (of all things) can screw it up fairly well.

Is it good? Yes, but it does have several bad matchups out there.

Donphan only attacks at most twice in that matchup, Buffalo and champ will be attacking farrr more.

Donchamp while I agree it does not autowin Reshiboar or Magneboar, it does have a good matchup versus them which is what makes it a strong deck. I only really see Kingmega, and Samurott as Donchamp's only really unfavorable matchups.

Also, while I do not agree with the canadian bashing, I do agree that your nationals will not have a huge effect on the US.

[vegitalian]

Originally Posted by Blitzer

Donphan only attacks at most twice in that matchup, Buffalo and champ will be attacking farrr more.

Donchamp while I agree it does not autowin Reshiboar or Magneboar, it does have a good matchup versus them which is what makes it a strong deck. I only really see Kingmega, and Samurott as Donchamp's only really unfavorable matchups.

Also, while I do not agree with the canadian bashing, I do agree that your nationals will not have a huge effect on the US.

I never argued as to whether it will have a huge effect on the US or not. Essentially, there were four very powerful rogue decks revealed at Canadian Nationals. Any of these four in the hands of a good player could do well at U.S. Nationals; however, U.S. Nationals features a greater number of meta decks. Will our sample size prove to be a glimpse of the top decks at U.S. Nationals? I doubt it, but I can see a few of the decks emerging at the top, along with a few other rogues (though a larger percentage of meta decks in top cut).

I was merely defending my deck against your claim that it needs to T1 or T2 judge to win the matchup. I've tested the deck for weeks against Donchamp, and if anything Kingdra/Yanmega is the one that needs to be seriously crippled to lose to it (or be donked by Tyrogue - that always works). Looking at the facts that make it an awful matchup in bullet points (who doesn't love bullet points?):

• When Champ goes down, so does 3 turns of Energy attachments
• Donphan does bench damage, Yanmega snipes - Donphan makes snipes easier
• Machamp is usually Rare Candied, and even if not, is vulnerable to being devoluted by Jirachi for an easy kill
• Judge messes the deck up, real bad

[Blitzer]

Originally Posted by vegitalian

I never argued as to whether it will have a huge effect on the US or not. Essentially, there were four very powerful rogue decks revealed at Canadian Nationals. Any of these four in the hands of a good player could do well at U.S. Nationals; however, U.S. Nationals features a greater number of meta decks. Will our sample size prove to be a glimpse of the top decks at U.S. Nationals? I doubt it, but I can see a few of the decks emerging at the top, along with a few other rogues (though a larger percentage of meta decks in top cut).

I was merely defending my deck against your claim that it needs to T1 or T2 judge to win the matchup. I've tested the deck for weeks against Donchamp, and if anything Kingdra/Yanmega is the one that needs to be seriously crippled to lose to it (or be donked by Tyrogue - that always works). Looking at the facts that make it an awful matchup in bullet points (who doesn't love bullet points?):

• When Champ goes down, so does 3 turns of Energy attachments
• Donphan does bench damage, Yanmega snipes - Donphan makes snipes easier
• Machamp is usually Rare Candied, and even if not, is vulnerable to being devoluted by Jirachi for an easy kill
• Judge messes the deck up, real bad

I can understand those points, but you are referring to a consistent t2-t3 double mega, double kingdra, which i wou expect to be difficult :P A t2 donphan, t2 champ is much easier and only requires one eq on a 4 bench to be effective. Also, buffalo 2 ppowers works to :P. the one point I am in extreme agreement is, is judge, but i feel that can be countered with maxed draw supporters.

[chrataxe]

Are we really having a conversation about how good the matchup favors Donchamp against Kindra/Yanmega? Seems kind of like saying Zekrom has a favorable matchup against Donchamp....

Don't forget, it doesn't matter that you one shot him, he spreads damage and ruins your set up with Jirachi.

[untitled]

Sorry for how newby of a question this is, but why is Machamp used in Donchamp? Is it just for muscle? Because if so, why not use like a stage 1 or basic card instead to speed the deck up? Is there not a better alternative or does Machamp serve another purpose?

[Gamer1oo]

Originally Posted by untitled

Sorry for how newby of a question this is, but why is Machamp used in Donchamp? Is it just for muscle? Because if so, why not use like a stage 1 or basic card instead to speed the deck up? Is there not a better alternative or does Machamp serve another purpose?

machamp is in there to hurl donphan into ur opponent when ur losing, that is the main purpose of course



jk!!!!!!!!!
he is mainly there for the fighting tag

[untitled]

Ok thanks, as a returning player that was the last deck I didn't understand.

But on topic- from what I've heard (haven't tested it) Blastoise/Floatzel can be a little rough if it gets setup.

[Gamer1oo]

i think it would do ok but if it hit zerkrom it wouldnt stand a chance but otherwise pretty good if set up

[ElectivireFan15]

If you've got your DonChamp built to what it should be, it's hard finding room toadd in a 1-1 line of Zoroark for RDL match-ups, because you need somewhat heavy lines of all your T/S/S (excluding a few). But thats just my opinion on it. Also, Canada plays a bit differently than the U.S. So the reason Yanmega was so dominant there was because it's different there. I expect to see a lot of it at Nats cause of how well it did in Canada.

---------- Post added 07/06/2011 at 11:02 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Gamer1oo

i think it would do ok but if it hit zerkrom it wouldnt stand a chance but otherwise pretty good if set up

PlusPower and Earthquake. Problem solved.

[soul prodigy]

Don't worry people; I'll save this debate ;).
Ok, first I would just like to say it's good to see everyone actually putting reason behind their arguements for a change.
But here I go: The debate is whether or not Yanmega builds, in this case Kingdra/Yanmega builds aren't a near autoloss for Donchamp, and well I have to disagree to that. Here's why. Let’s say you use Cleffa to eeek a new hand. An intelligent Yanmega player would be a fool not to judge that hand away immediately. And since Yanmega is my main attacker, I can easily get one out turn two and if you flipped tails on the sleep for Cleffa, I can snipe, but if you did flip heads, I can knockout your Cleffa. Also, let’s say you attack me with Donphan... that’s a misplay in itself because your Donphan will never one shot my Yanmega, my Kingdra will one shot your Donphan, or place a damage counter on it the next turn for the knockout. But here is why Donphan is really Ironic in this matchup. The damage that you need on your bench sets your own pokemon up for knockouts... your machops only have 60 HP, 50 HP after you earthquake. So Yanmega snipe (40) + Kingdra pokepower (10) = KO. Also, in reference to Ruins of Alph... why would this card ever be used? It’s worthless in half of your matchups, and actually will set your Donphan up for a KO from Magnezone and Zekrom... so it’s counter productive againest Magneboar and ZPS... which runs Yanmega... And it was stated that Donchamp will have two Machamp out each reversing and each hitting for 150 damage each. Yeah that would be a great setup, but I am judging you and you will actually be able to pull off, in all this disruption, two Machamps, each with two fighting and a DCE that also only have one damage counter on the each… that seems a little farfetched. In Donchamp, cleffa is your draw power and against Yanmega, it isn’t a reliant source of speed, and my Yanmegas still two shot your Machamps. To summarize, my deck out speeds you, it is difficult for me to be one shot, I disrupt you, and your own strategy sets yourself up for knockout… how is that a remotely good matchup?
And RDL counters were brought up too, so you will risk consistency to run a counter to RDL? And if someone is teching in RDL they would be stupid to rush with it when only two or three prizes have been taken and it’s possible your opponent runs an actual counter. RDL is a last ditch pokemon used to take knockouts when things seem to be going bad, or a pokemon that should be used to secure victory when only two prizes are needed. BTW, Zoroark will be seen coming as is therefore not a viable counter.
I’m not trashing Donchamp, it’s a good deck, but Yanmega/Kingdra is certainly an uphill battle.

[Blitzer]

But it is not an autoloss, it all requires just a bit of luck. You are also referring to the fact that you will likely get out yanmegas and kingdras before I get out donphans and machamps. How is that? I have a stage 2 and stage 1, and so do you. Whoever sets up first and ruins the opponents set wins. Or, if Donchamp DOES get the double champ spinning, I'm sorry, but I don't see Yanmega/Kingdra winning. But, I WILL say it is unfavorable to Donchamp soley because of the resistence with Yanmega and the easy one shot with Kingdra.

And to those of you who think there will be a lot of it at nats, I agree, but I would like to say the quality of the lists are very likely low. This short time of hearing about the deck and US nats is not enough time for a powerful list to be formed.

And also, why is everyone saying zoroark, bouffalant is an infinitely better RDL tech as you can keep it in your hand till it is needed. :P

And, I NEVER said it was a good matchup in reference to the above post, so obviously you didnt read correctly. And you are also referring to the BEST case scenario of t2 megas and kingdras, which I will say now is very difficult to pull off.

[baby mario]

Originally Posted by ElectivireFan15

Canada plays a bit differently than the U.S

How so?

Is there a special Canadian way of playing that they all have to use? I would like to know more.

Yanmega/Kingdra might not be an autoloss (hey, you could Tyrogue donk them).

But it is a horrible match up every way you look at it: Weakness, Resistance, Machops getting sniped, them being so much faster than Champ . . .

[soul prodigy]

Lol I like you Blitzer, you use logic, your also awake at this late hour. I agree I'm not sure why people mentioned Zoroark because well yeah... kind of worthless, as with Ruins of Alph. And I did read your post, "good fighting chance" is what you said, also many are behind Donchamp insisting it can late game beat any deck. The post wasn’t in direct affiliation to your post, but to show as I said that this is a bad matchup… remotely far from a good matchup. But anyways, I do out speed you. My Yanmega and Kingdra don’t require energy and I am in control of when Judge is played, unless you’re teching one. In a perfect set up for you will take 3 turns to get out two Machamps that can switch, a bench of damaged pokemon, and the necessary energy… absolutely perfect setup though. I need an active Yanmega and a Kingdra on my bench, and a Judge to attack with and disrupt, which is a lot easier to pull off.

[Nintendan]

^It is def not autoloss.
I beat a Kingdra/Yanmega with DonChamp. It is most definitely winnable. Machamp 1-shots everything. Once you him rolling, you've pretty much won.
Unfavourable? Yes.
Autoloss? No.

Edit just realized ninja'd.

[Redsteal]

Originally Posted by soul prodigy

Lol I like you Blitzer, you use logic, your also awake at this late hour. I agree I'm not sure why people mentioned Zoroark because well yeah... kind of worthless, as with Ruins of Alph. And I did read your post, "good fighting chance" is what you said, also many are behind Donchamp insisting it can late game beat any deck. The post wasn’t in direct affiliation to your post, but to show as I said that this is a bad matchup… remotely far from a good matchup. But anyways, I do out speed you. My Yanmega and Kingdra don’t require energy and I am in control of when Judge is played, unless you’re teching one. In a perfect set up for you will take 3 turns to get out two Machamps that can switch, a bench of damaged pokemon, and the necessary energy… absolutely perfect setup though. I need an active Yanmega and a Kingdra on my bench, and a Judge to attack with and disrupt, which is a lot easier to pull off.

So you have four judges and no offense even if judge makes our hands the same and what not, there have been many times that i have gotten a good hand from a judge and the person playing the judge have gotten nothin for them self and lost the game because the got nothing, and Donchamp runs like 6 to 8 draw supports so more then likey you will always get one after someone judges you