Pre-XVII Werewolf Metagame Analysis

[Sandslash7]

Greetings, and welcome to the PokeGym Werewolf Metagame Analysis thread! Thank you for taking the time to come to this thread, and for your investment into this game and the community it has created. Thanks is also due to Cardzmaster2004 for bringing Werewolf to the PokeGym, and for his interest in the game. Without him and this game the Pokegym would be definitively more boring.

Written by:
Sandslash7
Ikrit

WARNING!
The following contains commentary on WW that may be uncomfortable for players in the game. You may experience: disappointment, humor, excitement, trepidation, awkwardness, anxiety, or anger following the reading of this post. However. This post and thread are in the best interests for everyone and this game as such, it is recommended that this be REQUIRED reading for all those interested in Pokegym Werewolf from this point on. ALSO: Any “CAP”s “bold” ”Italics” or color are for emphasis alone. Due to the length of this post it can fall victim to TL;DR syndrome and as such the emphasis markers serve to identify primary and secondary theses throughout.

Now, you may be wondering why this thread is necessary. Before that however, it is necessary to establish a baseline by examining some history of Pokegym Werewolf.

Pokegym Werewolf started back in 2006 when Cardz brought it to the forum. Unfortunately WW I had some issues (to be dealt with later), but it jumpstarted the WW playing on the Gym.
6 years later, there have been a grand total of 14 completed games of WW on the Gym. (IV was hosted at Origins/cancelled and VII [LOST] was cancelled). However, this will be the first time WW games, their trends, and the current meta have been objectively analyzed. There have been various semi-pertinent discussions in the post-game of most WW games, but this will be the first outside work that will analyze the meta as a whole and take into consideration multiple WW games.

Now, to get to the why: We (henceforth: SS7 and Ikrit) have increasingly noticed that there are systematic problems that are becoming both increasingly dangerous and increasingly prevalent. We discussed the issues between ourselves and have come to the conclusion that these issues exist and are dangerous. Still, to be sure, we extended our discussion to several other players as well as some completely external third parties. Resoundingly both ourselves and the other players have become sure that something needs to change.

It is also important to understand that we love this game. WW is really one of the only reasons some of us come to these forums, from the matching of wits with the players, to the friendships that exist simply because of WW, to the stretching of logic and discernment. We have thoroughly enjoyed butting rhetorical heads with you all, and this has been an incredibly fun and enriching experience.

And so, because of our love of WW, we have become sure that this discussion is necessary as the agent of this necessary change.

__________________________________________________

A brief outline of the thread(searchable by the tags):

Focuses:

1. Analyze the previous games to discover trends in victory conditions and other notable variables {TG}
2. Identify balance issues, which is a meta-analysis of the above category {IBI}
3. Determine balance issues and identify role creation issues that are breaking the game {RC}
4. Examine moderation Issues, which bridge balance/role creation to interactions with players {PMI}
5. Address player issues, examining the now-present bad habits that are increasingly plaguing Gym meta. {API}
6. Finally, concisely list overall recommendations.{REC}

Appendices:

1. Abbreviation/Definition List {ADL}
2. The grand history of Mr. X {MRX}
3. Links to WW data in various formats {WWD}

Note one: Focus five is by far the primary and most important topic, and the initial reason for this thread’s conception.

Note two: This thread will NOT be a “complain about WW MCV” thread. There WILL be issues discussed here from X, XV, XVI and other WW games. But this thread will not be sidetracked by excessive complaining over one particular issue or game. Data collection, analysis, and discussion is good. Unnecessarily negative criticism is not, and will not be tolerated.

__________________________________________________

Section 1: Trends in Gameplay {TG}

Initially, let us take stock of the possible win conditions that have been held by players in WW games in the past. Once these WCs are established and defined we can identify their interactions.

Town: These players must lynch or kill all wolves and other scum (LMS indies/third parties) to be victorious.

Wolves: These players must kill enough townies at Night until their remaining numbers are equal, at which point the wolves gain a majority and win inevitably. A less frequently used win condition was that the wolves would have to kill enough townies so that the remaining number of townies matched the initial number of wolves at the beginning of the game.

Third Parties: These players would generally have varying WC’s based on in-game flavor and are quite diverse, from cultists to objective based WCs.

LMS Indies: There are different types of indies, but these are similar to ‘Serial Killers’ in their WC and ability to have a kill. Sometimes these indies only receive a kill once other parties such as the wolves have been eliminated.

Survival Indies: This type of indie mainly works alone, only having to stay alive until the Endgame, where they may win with any “primary team,” whether wolves, town, or third party.

Now, there have been 14 completed WW games on the Gym. Six have been won by Independents of the LMS flavor. Eight have been won by Town. Lets break this down more specifically.

WW I: Town victory, but with a little help of poor sportsmanship. If you’ve never heard the story of Mr. X, please jump down to the bottom for Appendix 2: {MR.X}.
WW II: Indie victory by Cardz (delay-action SK Mewtwo)
WW III: Indie victory in the form of Mason Group “Assassins”.
WW IV: This was to be held at Origins, but was cancelled, so there is no data here.
WW V: Indie victory in the form of Mason Group “Bombers”.
WW VI: Indie victory with Mr. X(I believe LMS WC).
WW VII: This was WW LOST Edition, and was cancelled.
WW VIII: Indie victory by Pokepockets(LMS WC).
WW IX: Indie victory by Sdrawkcab(LMS WC).

Here is where the analysis gets interesting, after having six games in a row won by indies, the pattern shifts.

WW X: Town Victory by a hair.
WW XI: Town Victory.
WW XII: Town Victory by a hair.
WW XIII: Town Victory.
WW XIV: Town Victory.
WW XV: Town Victory by a hair.
WW XVI: Town Victory.

However, this data needs to be broken down statistically to be turned into actionable information:

Just about forty percent of games have been won by indies, while almost sixty percent have been won by town. No games have been won by wolves. The indies who have won have been those with LMS-type win conditions, notably this is the most prevalent win condition for indies to have. Survival-only indies are a very different animal and are thus not noted above. Third parties have not won, so their percentage matches the wolves at zero.

Now, after the indies won several games, we see the town start reigning, even if many of them were close victories.

There are a few reasons as to WHY the town began winning instead of the indies, and is still winning to this date. Some of the more obvious possibilities are:

1. Increasing Player skill

   Outlines one of the more probable reasons. Good townies will be able to evaluate the indies and wolves and lynch them. An LMS indie has only his personal skill, while the town can call upon the eyes and minds of upwards of 20 players to find trends and such.
   

2. The Town’s PR’s have gotten better

   This is one of the primary reasons. At this point there have been no vanilla town roles for a few games now. This means that almost if not every townie has a role useful to the town, and this means that indies are much easier to find and remove.
   

3. Indie roles have become underpowered

   This isn’t the issue as LMS indies haven’t been gimped noticeably if at all.
   

4. Infighting within the scum hurts both groups

   This is a good reason. It is obviously more strategic for a wolf to convince the town to lynch an indie, as it results in town credit. By comparison it makes no sense for a wolf to attempt to convince the town to lynch a townie when an indie is afoot.
   

5. The Indie players have not gotten better as fast as the town has

   This seems obviously untrue as the indies and townies are pulled from the same stock of players.
   

Now. To answer the bigger question: Why have the WOLVES never won a WEREWOLF game (haha… irony).

Here are the possible reasons:

1. Players have gotten better

   It is difficult to lay blame at this issue, because as the town becomes better, the wolves would become better as well, especially considering that some of the LYLO games that resulted in townie wins have been recent, namely XV.
   

2. The Town’s PR’s have gotten better

   This is a primary and exceptionally evident issue. Town power roles have gotten ridiculous in recent games. Especially information roles. This will be treated in depth in Section 2.
   

3. Wolves’ roles are underpowered

   This is the antithesis of what is happening. Wolf roles have been getting more and more powerful over recent games. The combination of Redirector/Role Cop was included in the most recent game, XVI, and it is VERY powerful. Not to mention the “Godfather” abilities that have been added, giving the Alpha Werewolf the ability to be undetectable by traditional Seers.
   

4. Infighting within the scum hurts both groups

   Agreed that this is definitely contributing. A brief example from WW XV the Alpha being targeted by 2 Town roles AND the Sith (Third Party “cultist group”) for his demise. The Sith definitely assisted in the downfall of the wolves, and vice versa.
   

5. Wolf players have not gotten better as fast as the town has

   This does not seem to be the issue, as similar to the indies, the wolves are pulled from the same stock. The wolves have never won regardless of the players whom have been wolves.
   

6. Wolf players are not good enough at both scumhunting/day play as well as fake role reveals

   The scumhunting could be part of it. However it is near impossible to differentiate these two issues based on the play we have seen, because wolves generally are discovered based on a variety of scumhunting methods and role information.
   

In addition to the trends in the victorious faction, there are also other evident trends in gameplay. Games have been getting longer. Extraordinarily so. The average game of Werewolf before XII was around 10 pages long (at 40 posts per page, ~400 posts). The average game AFTER XII is now 54 pages long and over 2000 posts long.

What does this mean for gameplay? Well there are a couple of things. The first is that people are talking more and using more deduction/logic. This is a good thing and should be supported completely. The second is there are more junk posts that clutter up the thread, making searching for said logic and reasoning harder. This is bad, and should be avoided (see XVI for needless bumping issues, as well as Section 5) XVI, the most recent game, had over 4400 posts in it. I think this bloating is excessive. XV had great conversation in it (especially late game) and was over 40 pages and 1500 posts shorter. This, again, will be discussed in greater detail in Section 5.

OK, so we’ve gone over some trends in gameplay. All 14 completed games have been examined. Through this examination it has been noted where the indies, town, and wolves have won, as well as other gameplay trends such as game length.

TL;DR? {TG}

1. Indies won the early set of games, and Town has been victorious in the latest set (Indies won six and the town has won eight games respectively)
2. Town victories have been very close to being either Wolf (twice) or indie (3 times) or 3rd party (2 times). However, wins are what is important, not “close losses.”
3. Some hypothetical reasons have been noted for this abrupt change in victorious faction.
4. The drastically increased length of game that occurred during and after XII has also been examined.

__________________________________________________

Section 2: Balance Issues {IBI}

First, understand that this topic is not formed out of any negative feelings about recent or non-recent events. This thread goes WAY beyond game balance and design and that really is only a side-issue to the primary one in Section 5. Nonetheless balance has been an issue in our eyes for some time, even back to WW X, and due to the evidence and data we have collected it needs to be addressed.

Taking a look at the data collected from these games we can pull out some very clear balance issues that may address the trends stated above. There is a link appended to this document in Appendix 3: {WWD} which points to a Google Spreadsheet set with all of the raw data accumulated if you would like to double-check any statements OR see it for yourself. These graphs, charts, and statistics will be referenced in this and the following section liberally.

1. Lack of faction win balance

   There are three(two primary) factions in this game. If the games were balanced, the factions that would have won would ALSO be balanced. See Graph #7. This is a representative pie chart of what faction has won how many games. The numbers are here:
   

   Indies: 42.9%
   Wolves: 0%
   Town: 57.1%
   

   Now admittedly fourteen is a rather small sample size. It is possible that that has some part to play in the statistical breakdown. If we look closely the Wolves were one cycle from winning, twice. Independents, however, were ALSO one cycle from winning, twice. Regardless, being close to winning is not winning, and in the vast majority of these cases the only reasons the wolves/indies lost were the systematic problems that will be examined here.
   

2. Wolf to town ration

   Look at Graph #1.
   
   From Mafiascum: Under “C… Flavorless”

   Originally Posted by Mafiascum Wiki

   The standard is for scum to make up anywhere from 25% to 33% of the number of players based on how powerful the Town is.

   So if we see Graph #1, there has only been one place (WW IX) when the werewolves have ever been within the lower bound of that “suggested range”. Not only that, but the percentage of the town that the wolves comprise has been decreasing over time. Now, this decreasing trend is only .3% per game, but still the trend is there, and thus far there has been only one game where a “wolves-to-town” ratio reaches the lower bound of the “optimal” range.
   
   Clearly this trend should be reversed in future Werewolf games, and the amount of wolves restored to the correct ratio.
   

3. Increasing overabundance of IRs

   Look at Graph #2 and #5.
   
   As time has passed, more and more information roles have been added into the game. In XV (arguably the worst offender), there were at least 12 roles that gave information about other players in some fashion, whether seers, pseudoseers, detectives, and other roles. This is very unbalanced. Theoretically that game could be “over” in 3 days, because by that time every player would have been seered/etc and all of the scum would be known.
   
   We are also averaging an increase of an additional information role every other game, and that has been building for sometime. The more information roles that are added to the game, the greater the slide towards the town and away from anything resembling balanced.
   
   Graph 5 shows us that the issue is not that more seers have been added. It shows that, in addition to a “set” number of seers per game there are additional “other information” roles, such as detectives, watchers, and other roles that gather information. The drastic increase in these additional information roles seem to be what is causing the issue.
   

4. Increased town-aligned win condtion percentage

   Look at Graphs 3 and 4.
   
   These two graphs show us the differences between the number and breakdown of players (respectively) in games won by indies versus townies, as well as games before XII versus XII and following.
   
   Now, you may be wondering why XII is being used as a “benchmark.” By examining the data it is clear that games before XII are very different than XII and those that came after. XII was a turning point that has lead us inexorably towards the point we are at now. And the statistics play that out.
   
   So, going back to Graph 3: Games won by townies had approximately the same number of wolves and indies as games won BY indies. However, games won by townies had an average of five more town roles added on top. We can see that more town roles weights the game towards the town side, and makes it much more difficult for anti-town alignments to win.
   
   Graph 4 also shows a similar trend. Games from XII onward have increased numbers of townies AND independents, while not having an appreciable increase in wolves as well.
   
   Again, we are seeing the games being unbalanced towards one alignment based on sheer numbers, while not taking into account the other increases we’ve seen in information roles.
   

5. Increased town PR#

   Look at Graph 6 next. This shows the increase in “traditional” power roles per game. Traditional was defined: “Seer, Priest, Roleblocker, Vigilante, or Other Information Role.” Effectively the “basic” roles that we come across, without individual moderator’s flavor that may change or add fresh, new ideas. More of these power roles for the town means more overall power for the town, which means greater imbalance in each game as a whole, if it is not balanced by increasing wolf power as well. However, this does not mean that increasing wolf power to counterbalance is recommended. The more power each side has...the harder it is to maintain balance of power.
   

6. Wolf Power roles

   Now I will commend the mods for putting in wolf PRs. This greatly helps even the odds in their favor AND also gives them a claim for when people come knocking on their door. The number of wolf PRs has also been increasing as well. A longtime tradition of having a “conversion” role gave way to putting in “traditional” roles such as Role Cop, Redirector, 1-shot Vig, and others. However, even with these buffs, the wolf side still has not managed a victory yet.
   

7. Power creep

   Power creep has been a growing problem. Whenever power creep occurs balance becomes exponentially harder. This is especially true when this power creep comes about through the use of unique roles. Unique roles are untested and as such regularly have unforeseeable balance concerns when utilized by an intelligent player. The answer to an increasingly powerful town is not to increase the power of the wolves. This game is not a game of nights instead it is a game of days and nights. Player skill is sacrificed when power creep is indulged, not to mention the problem that balance is much more difficult.
   

TL;DR? {IBI}

1. Victory has not been balanced among factions.
2. Werewolf % vs. Village has only been optimal once in the entire history of Gym WW.
3. Increased information roles is an unbalancing factor.
4. Increased townie number has not been matched by equivalently increased Wolf number
5. Increased townie PR number is an unbalancing factor.
6. Scum PR’s, while important and on the rise, have not been able to match the above factors.
7. Power creep is not a problem that should not be fixed by further power creep.

__________________________________________________

Section 3: Role Creation Issues: {RC}

As outlined above, there has been an increase in town power roles over the past few games. These power roles also include an increase in information-type roles as well. We have also seen an increase in WW PRs, but this has not been enough to counterbalance the town side of things, nor is increasing power creep tenable.

So. We have problems with role creation.

1. Lack of vanilla roles

   When was the last time you saw a vanilla townie role? We’ll answer that one. There have not been vanilla townie roles since WW XIII (and before that the last one was WW X). What does this mean? This means that anyone who claims to be a vanilla townie will immediately be lynched because the only people who are vanilla are werewolves with no PR (which is condemning, as wolves until recently rarely had PRs).
   
   Now. Do people LIKE getting a vanilla role? Not necessarily. However, for the good and balance of the game it is imperative that vanilla townies be put back into the game. It is also imperative that people who receive vanilla roles do not despise them and play them poorly. Indeed there is much power in being a vanilla who can say anything and accuse anyone without worry of harming the town due to dying to the wolves and the town losing a PR. Every town needs pushers. It is doubly dangerous if the pusher is one who has a PR. Being a VT stretches your personal playing skills like no other.
   
   It is good for a couple reasons.

   1. It reduces the strength of the town, something that we think is sorely needed based on the data collected.
   2. It allows wolves the ability to claim vanilla townie without the ramification of instant death.
   3. It forces players to rely on logic and reason to find werewolves and scum, rather than just waiting for the next Night cycle, making them better players in the long run.
   4. It allows players to play without the fear of the town losing a PR.

2. Increased information roles

   This is also an issue with the increase in information roles other than seers. During the creation of the game the moderator must make sure that they understand the ramifications of putting in additional information roles, especially when said role can be described as a “seer by a different name.” If there are 2 Seers and 5 information roles, 3 of whom are effectively “seers” as well, does it make the game unbalanced to have 5 Seers running around? YES, it does, greatly so!
   

3. Game flavor

   Flavor or theme is also an issue if a Mass-claim happens. Mass-claim, if not planned for, can be extremely broken for either the wolves or the town. In our case it has been hurtful to the wolves primarily, since werewolves in our games either are vanilla or are “obviously evil” based on their name, with the notable exception of Shauntal in XVI. Therefore, the creation of the roles should take into account the possibility of a mass-claim of either names or roles.
   

4. Game unbalance

   The point stands that with so many information roles (many of which are “seers by a different name”) WW has become unbalanced towards the town side, effectively making playing a scum an uphill battle against almost inevitable defeat. In a balanced and fun game, each major faction should have an equal shot at winning. Besides this, with this huge increase of information roles, players have become reliant on mod-fed results via information roles rather than scumhunting, logic, and reason.
   

TL;DR? {RC}

1. VTs are needed for many reasons to make the game balanced and players better overall.
2. Too many information roles unbalance the game towards the town.
3. Wolves and indies don’t have protection from Mass-claim of roles OR names, which could be: Inclusion of VTs, Inclusion of “safe-claims”, Inclusion of WW PR’s, Reduction in “obviously evil” names, or other additions.
4. These issues are tipping the scales heavily in the town’s favor, and reducing the quality of the players.

__________________________________________________

Section 4: Modding Issues {PMI}

To start with, the moderators should be applauded for taking time out of their schedule to host a game for our fun and enjoyment. All WW players are indebted to and should gratuitously thank Cardz, LOLZ, ShellShock929, Spoinkmaster, Absoltrainer, DukeFireBird, Lucario EX, and Arcanine/Arbok Master for their willingness to be mods/narrators for WW games. However, occasionally issues arise that must be acknowledged and dealt with about how a moderator has constructed or run a game.

1. Obvious imbalance in games

   The above evidence has incontrovertibly shown just how the games have been weighted towards the town players, based on sheer number of wins as well as quantity and quality of PRs and information roles. Balance should be taken more into account for games following XVI. Future mods should follow the Mafiascum link to modding tips above which will definitely help balance issues.

2. Individual/paired role broken-ness

   Cardz I think was the most flagrant of all violators. In WW X he gave DarthPika the broken role of the Vouger, where the vouger would avoid every role targeted at him on an 80% chance, In addition to auto-dodging the first kill role directed his way. This is utterly broken and was one of the only reasons why the Town won WW X at all (notable is that the vouger was the last remaining townie).
   

3. Update writing

   Absoltrainer is the most obvious culprit here. His updates consisted of direct notation of where every single person in the game was during the night. This was one of the primary reasons why the wolves lost in XV, in addition to all of the information roles (12) he included. AAM was much better at not showing what every player was doing during the night as well as giving the wolves things to “do”, and most of the other mods did not show every action at night. By making updates “perfect attendance” it reveals too much information to the town, and does not allow wolves and indies to hide behind the appearance of not doing anything. Updates should be seriously condensed and give MUCH less information than Absol’s.
   

4. Timing of updates and vote-counts

   Now I’ll start with saying that it is completely understandable and good for real life to take priority over WW games and stuff. If you’ve got a commitment outside of the forum, please take the time to resolve that urgent priority over WW modding. I completely agree with that. However. If you have signed up to mod a game, then WW becomes a priority for you, and if you don’t have anything urgent going on, time should be diverted to fulfill that commitment.
   
   I’m also very glad that Cardz introduced the “co-mod” system for XVI, and I hope that this starts being used to great effectiveness in all future WW games. The “co-mod” should also know all roles and be actively involved in the game.
   
   In short: Vote-counts do not take long to do, and should be fairly consistent (once a real-life day sounds optimal and doesn’t let things get out of hand). Especially with the Co-Mod system vote-counts should not be something the players have or need to clamor for.
   
   Updates should be prompt, but due to their length it is understandable that a delay may occur. Part of these delays could be countered by shortening the updates overall. If you are delayed by life circumstances, a quick note for ending the day and a solid timeframe for when the update should appear will be acceptable. But if you promise a timeframe that is direct, (“end of day” or “in 4 hours”) by all means stick to that deadline. If you can’t guarantee a specific time, don’t promise it.
   

5. Veracity, justice, and separation from play

   AAM is the example for this infraction. He allowed a player to directly influence the flavor of the updates and mislead the town by posting at the players request to “validate” the player’s “role.” Effectively, he lied for that player and changed the impression people had of that player to that player’s advantage (a fake role reveal). When this was proven to be a lie/false, it was also shown that the mod helped the player with this lie, and damaged the gamestate. The game was tarnished because the mod: one, became ostensibly “biased” towards one player and, two, became untrustworthy about all other information revealed in updates previously and henceforth in that game. The very act of intentionally or unintentionally lying to the players caused player trust in the mod to be lost, in addition to butterfly effect changes to the game emanating from D1 when the mid-game update was posted until the end of the game. While these changes could be undone, the damage could not. Lastly, the mod should be wholly separate from the players. Namely besides fixing errors that are required, it is imperative that the mod not interact in the game in ways that may allow for players to get reads. A Mod’s in-game interaction should be limited to fixing errors, dealing with rules infractions, vote-counts, and updates.
   
   We must strive hard for the mod to remain unbiased, completely trustworthy, separate from the game, and the final say on issues.
   

TL;DR? {PMI}

1. Mods need to be more aware of balance between the factions included in their games.
2. Mods need to also be aware of individual or paired broken roles and remove/change them.
3. Mods should be intentional in their update writing and not add too much information, because it turns the game into simply an easy puzzle.
4. Mods should be consistent and prompt in their updates and vote counts, unless real-life responsibilities out-prioritize their online WW commitment.
5. Mods must remain unbiased, utterly truthful, and completely separate from the players.

__________________________________________________

Finally, we reach the HEART of this thread.

Personal Playing Issues. {API}

1. Vet reverence

   This was harped on a bit in XVI, but it needs to be addressed further in a less biased setting. Vet reverence needs to stop. Let us get a definition before proceeding.
   
   Vet reverence is when a player or the player’s ideas are treated preferentially because of past experience or performance. This player’s ideas and statements are placed on a pedestal, so to speak, due to the player’s presence in earlier games. This pedestal involves increased attention to their posts, increased deference to their ideas, and more “forgiveness” when they make “errors” in play, (usually by assuming they are doing something else) among other issues..
   
   This is bad for several reasons:

   1. It allows “vets” to determine the direction of the town and wolves, which stagnates the meta.
   2. It causes the “vets’ ” skills to deteriorate because not as much rigor or thinking is required of them.
   3. It creates a groupthink sheep mentality in which those who are not treated as “vets” tend to adopt this same tendency of reverence, continually perpetuating this reverence.
   4. It leads to the elevation of players based on actions that are not relevant to the current game.

   
   First, on “vet” direction. Due to the reverence of these vets in any group they are in, be it town, wolf or other scum, they are given respect and allowed to guide the ideas, methods, and play of the group they are in. This obviously can lead meta stagnation, because those who have played the most are the least likely to adopt innovative styles of leadership. Furthermore, due to the pride of being considered a ‘vet’ it makes them less likely to try new things personally and corporately in WW. While this does not preclude new meta it places an extreme damper on its development and use.
   
   While it not only mutes positive changes, except those coming from vets, it also multiplies negative changes by vets. Because of the bias inherent in the peer-review of vet methodology it is much more likely that a negative vet method will be accepted and continued.
   
   As such, vet reverence/preference not only squashes the majority of positive changes (as majority of players are not treated as vets) it also increases the likelihood of negative meta changes. This results in at best a stagnating meta, and possibly a deteriorating meta.
   
   Secondly, due to the preferential treatment of both their speech acts and the ideas contained within their speech acts, it promotes skill deterioration among these players. This is because of two things: One, regardless of the rhetorical and syntactic design in their posts, their posts attract more attention and are more likely to be read and considered. Secondly, because they are “vets” and ostensibly more “capable, experienced, intelligent,” etc., the ideas within their speech acts are less rigorously examined before being agreed with and enacted.
   
   This leads to a natural deterioration of vet skills due to the very nature of how their posts are treated. They do not have to stretch their rhetorical skills to make their speech act stand out. Furthermore they do not have to contend against as much logical rigor because such rigor is not demanded of them.
   
   Thirdly, this preferential treatment is self-perpetuating through a stand alone complex. Specifically, the preferential treatment creates an environ in which preferential treatment not only occurs but is expected of members. This merging of peer-pressure and devaluation of new players(to be more thoroughly examined later) creates an effect by which new players play, learn, and gradually adopt this same mentality themselves.
   
   Lastly, these actions and favoritism lead to the elevation of certain players over other players for things that have no relevance to the game they are currently participating in. So what if one player played well last game? If they play wolfy/bad this game it doesn’t mean that play should be allowed to slide “because they are ‘vets’.” One should always evaluate a player based on their play in current games above all else. It has been argued that it is necessary to examine current game playstyle of a player in contrast with previous game playstyle for the purpose of determining OOC play. While this can on occasion lead to good reads on alignment, it seems clear that it causes a more negative effect by which players are tied to their previous play style. This also leads to a meta stagnation, and as such the negative effect is more grievous than the small advantage it affords the town...which has already been demonstrated to be unnecessary.
   
   As such, players should be dealt with within the context of the current game. Each game should be a contained unit for reads and treatment.
   

2. Rudeness

   Rudeness is unacceptable. There are many, many ways to create emotional and logical pressure on other players that do not requiring demeaning them nor their ideas in any way. Furthermore, there are several players who attempt to justify their rudeness to others by saying that it is a necessary part of the game to create pressure. First, that is wrong because it is easy to create pressure by noting “inconsistencies”, adding votes, and other tactics. Secondly, even under the non-existent circumstances of rudeness being needed for pressure it still should not be utilized; because it is not worth it as will be shown momentarily. It may be strategically positive in nature, however there are boundaries that should be in place for how players should interact with each other. Rudeness is anything that demeans the player. Saying someone is wrong is not demeaning...telling them they suck is.
   
   It is important to realize that there are three purposes to Werewolf. In no particular order:

   1. To win.
   2. To have fun and help others do the same.
   3. To become better and help others do the same.

   
   Being rude can in some instances assist in winning, however there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. It impairs other’s ability to have fun. Furthermore it also drastically decreases the likelihood of them becoming better. As such being rude to other players is not worth the possible benefit.

3. Mod/Role overreliance

   Another systematic problem with the way WW is played is how reliant the town has become on information provided to them from the moderator. This is especially seen in the most recent WW games (XII and onward) due to the higher percentage of information (or pseudo-information) roles in the game. Unfortunately, players are primarily relying on the Night update(information straight from the mod), their own role(also straight from the mod), or other players’ roles to base their cases/reads off of. This habit completely overlooks any Day evidence, play, and reads for the “better” evidence handed out by the mod or by other players. At minimum, this causes the early Days (1~4) to be pretty much devoid of any helpful lynches or tactics, relegating them to bandwagons and lucky hits or misses. If Day evidence and logic would be used, the early days can easily be as fruitful as later discussion, when enough “Night information” has built up that someone RRs to out a scum.
   
   There are two factors, inexorably linked, which contribute to this habit.
   
   The first is the Update itself, be it Night or Day. As outlined above, the mod may include useful information in the update. However, when players only use this resource and forgo making reads off of Day play this stunts their ability to differentiate between wolves and town. These players solely analyze the update, and make assumptions and plans based on the updates alone. This can backfire horrendously when the update is untruthful (though it shouldn’t be), but regardless the update is only one piece of the puzzle. Updates provide helpful hints, but they can never substitute for a great read one can get from uncovering a trend in voting or the way one player acts about another player. These reads and trends found in Day play cannot be obscured by the mod, nor can they be “hand-waved” away by the offending player.
   
   The other is information from roles, whether one’s own or other players’. Unfortunately, if a player relies primarily on their role for information to use for deciding upon lynches, if said player is dealt a role that does not provide information in a new game that player suddenly loses their entire reason for playing. These players find themselves without the tools needed to combat the wolves and indies, and soon give up on the game because they never learned how to uncover trends in gameplay or reads off of posts. Eventually, this leads to their lack of interest in the game and ultimately hurts the town. These players, instead of using Day skills to uncover the scum and assisting the other town members, become dead weight, unhelpful to the town and eventually free lynches for the wolves and indies.
   
   The flip side to only relying on your role for information that helps you understand the game is that it emphasizes lurking. Players who use their role to get the vast majority of their reads end up lurking quite a bit, trying to stay under the radar until they can get a handle on how the game is panning out, based on the information the mod gives them every Night cycle. This lurking from ostensibly town players allows wolves and indies to play right along, as if they also had a PR that they were successively using each Night. This lack of participation during the day harms the town just as much as lack of participation from those who rely on PRs for info and do not receive them.
   
   Effectively, if players only utilize their roles and the updates (Night specifically), they are ignoring, discounting, and de-emphasizing ONE HALF of the entire game, and thus harm the town and the game by playing, in a best case scenario, at 50 percent capacity. To truly excel at WW, one must use both role and update information coupled with a complete understanding of correct Day play and how to read other players.
   

4. Plethora of small meaningless posts

   This was an issue seen greatly in XVI, but again it is becoming systemic to the game as a whole, and must be dealt with.
   
   Many posts with only small bits of information is harmful to the game. These microposts lengthen the thread unduly and dilute the reasoning and logic contained within them. This dilution causes players to have to skim through the thread relatively quickly to condense what the player microposting is saying into a discrete unit. By “encouraging” this skimming, these microposters are encouraging less intense focus and consideration on any one particular post. Thus, each post in the game, especially if it is small, gets only a cursory glance, causing posts with legitimate logic to fall through the cracks and be lost in an endless sea of posts without meaning. This oversaturation of a thread affects the game multiple ways.
   
   First is that the posts themselves don’t encourage deep thought or stimulate the town towards finding scum. These posts may or may not have any reasoning, logic or unique thoughts in them, due to their small size. Thus, the amount of time the average player must spend looking for helpful discussion and reads is increased, due to the amount of posts they must process and sift through.
   
   Second, these posts can veil the presence of posts with unique knowledge, good reads, or scummy play. Due to the sheer number of these inconsequential microposts the town invariably stops paying attention to every post, and good information and play is lost. This invariably hurts the town and allows wolves and indies to hide their contradictions and mistakes.
   

5. Responses out of emotionalism

   It is very challenging to not let one’s emotions get the best of them when playing a game that is highly competitive and can get quite heated (see rudeness). However, when emotions run high rudeness and other negative attitudes can ensue easily. Emotionalism is fine...in some circumstances it is perfect. Whenever it crosses the line into bitterness or rudeness against other players it has gone too far.
   
   Also as a note simply to increase quality of play, it is also important to realize that emotional wolves make dead wolves and emotional townies tend to tunnel. As such, both of these groups become better when they restrain emotionalism rather than allowing it to guide them.
   

6. Condescension to newbs

   Don’t condescend to “newbs”. Seriously. First, it is rude. Second, it helps perpetuate the vet reverence because by looking down on someone for their “supposed” lack of experience you reinforce the false dichotomy of experience equaling quality. Third, many times good ideas and possible meta-changes are proposed by these “newbs” and they are completely ignored. Effectively everything that is bad about assuming vets deserve reverence is mirrored by the same mistake of assuming that “newbs” are incapable. It is in all circumstances the play of a player should determine how they are treated, not their previous successes, failure, or lack of either. Judge the play not the player...do not make presumptions about the play of the player based on their experience or lack thereof.
   

TL;DR? {API}

1. Vet reverence causes meta-stagnation and loss of skill
2. Rudeness is not worth it
3. Mod/Role overreliance causes degradation of skill
4. A plethora of small meaningless posts dilutes logic
5. Emotionalism leads to poor play
6. Condescension to “newbs” is unacceptable

__________________________________________________

Section 6: Overall Recommendations {REC}

These recommendations are based off of the data we’ve gathered, as well as off of the trends and meta that has been seen and elaborated upon in the above sections.

1. Werewolf % should be between 25-33% of town
2. Number of information roles needs to be decreased
3. Increased townie number should be matched by equivalently increased wolf number
4. Number of town PRs needs to be decreased.
5. Scum PRs should be decreased for ease of balance of power between town and wolves.
6. Factional powercreep should not be fixed by increased powercreep of other factions.
7. Number of VTs need to be increased.
8. Wolves and indies need protection from Mass-claim of roles OR names in heavily themed games
9. Mods need to be more aware of balance between the factions included in their games.
10. Mods need to also be aware of individual or paired broken roles and remove/change them.
11. Mods should be intentional in their update writing and not add too much information, because it reduces player skill.
12. Mods should be consistent and prompt in their updates and vote counts, unless real-life responsibilities out-prioritize their online WW commitment.
13. Mods must remain unbiased, utterly truthful, and separate from the players.
14. Players should reject vet reverence.
15. Players should create peer-pressure against rudeness.
16. Players should intentionally reduce their reliance on Mod/Role information.
17. Players should reduce the number of small, meaningless posts that dilute logic.
18. Players should be wary of excessive emotionalism.
19. Players should judge plays not players.

__________________________________________________

So, what does this mean for the game of WW? It is hoped that players take these considerations to heart, and examine for themselves the facts of the meta that have been elucidated here. Everyone is welcomed to discuss and debate these topics, and are encouraged to do so to bring further growth out of the changes presented here.

We would also like to specially thank in no specific order:
Absoltrainer
Arcanine/Arbok Master
orcmonkey2000

Ultimately we thank all of you for reading through this and striving to better this game we all love.

__________________________________________________

Appendix 1: Abbreviation/Definition List {ADL}

WW = Werewolf or werewolf, check context.
WW “Roman numerals” (WW XV) = Werewolf game 15 etc
Mod = Moderator/Host/Narrator
N#/D# Update = Update written by mod for Night/Day noted by number
N#/D# = The Night or Day of that number
Cycle = One period of time, whether Night or Day. (so Day 2 is cycle 3)
Indie = Independent Aligned Player
Village = Total number of players in a game, regardless of alignment
Townie = Town Aligned Player
Town = Group of players having a Town alignment (or adjective describing one’s town-ness)
3rd Party = Player of Non-Indie, Non-Town, Non-Wolf Alignment
Role = Role/Ability received from the mod
Scum = Anti-town Aligned Player (Non-Town Faction OR Anti-Town Indie)
LYLO = Lynch-or-Lose scenario for the town, where if they do not lynch a wolf/indie then the wolves/indies win.
OOC = Out-Of-Character (used in reference to playstyle)
Gym = PokeGym
WC = Win Condition
LMS = Last Man Standing (WC)
NK = Night Kill
PR = Power Role
RR = Role Reveal
IR = Information Role
VT = Vanilla Townie
Vig = Vigilante
SK = Serial Killer
Mass-Claim = Tactic where all players claim their role/name/both.

__________________________________________________

Appendix 2: {Mr. X}

Well, if you’ve never heard the story of Mr. X, take a seat around the campfire while we share the story of how the most famous of WW antagonists had his creation!

WW I was a VERY Pokemon themed WW game. Every person was a Pokémon of some fashion or other. The game progressed pretty well for the town, and we lynched a Wolf D1. Soon N2 was upon the town. That night an individual who joined the forum under the Name Mr. X sent out a PM to various players in the game, claiming to want revenge on the wolves. In the PM, he included the names of the remaining wolves, as well as the order in which to lynch them. The town eventually lynched these players in that order the next 3 days, and the town won very convincingly, only lynching a townie once, if at all.

Fortunately, Cardz was alerted of this issue, but he decided to let the game play out to see how this event affected the players. Sure enough they played right along with the PM. Cardz revealed at the end that the game had been spoiled by Mr. X.

In WW III, Tourney Pros, Cardz decided to actually add Mr. X into the game itself as the person who had hired the werewolves. After this addition and the evolution of his character, other mods began using Mr. X in other scenarios, and he became integrated into our WW lore.

And thus, Mr. X, the antagonist you all know and love was originally an antagonist to Werewolf as a whole, so Mr. X’s stance as being antagonistic to the town fits perfectly. It’s a pretty funny story now and gives us some really unique flavor for our WW games that dates back to the very beginning.

__________________________________________________

Appendix 3: Werewolf Data {WWD}

Here is the link to our data spreadsheets in excel.
Here is the link to our data spreadsheets in google docs.
Here is the link to our graphs in a pdf.
Here is the link to our graphs in a xps.
Here is the link to our graphs in a docx.

[Absoltrainer]

Sandslash, you and me (and Ikrit) have been discussing everything in the above post consistently for the last 3 or 4 months or so, and you know I agree 100% with everything on here. If I have time, I'll make a bigger post, but I just want to acknowledge that I agree with every word

[PMysterious]

I actually think this thread will help many of the current moderators and the moderators to come. Thanks SS7 and Ikrit.


Well, that's quite the interesting story on Mr. X. I wonder if I get to see him someday. Hold on, someone's at my door. Prepare to die PMysterious. Wait, no. Ghetsis! I'm sorry for you being in my soul! I promise to... Enough!!!! Mr.X is coming to see you. Mr.X? Wait, in my room? With your dead body in it. Wait, was Mr. X the one who sent the beam flying? Why in fact, yes. KILL HIM! "scream"

Originally Posted by PMysterious

You are Darth Jigglypuff. A Pokemon Sith Lord. You were the youngest Pokemon Jedi and loved by many. However, Jedi Piplup attacked you with no reasoning behind it and you died around 10 minutes later. After a few days you became revived and now you want revenge on Jedi Piplup to this day. You also kill and destroy everything in your path because of how dark you became.

Role: (Jedi Hunter): During the night, you can PM the moderater the name of 1 alive player. If that player is Jedi Piplup, you WILL kill him with no question. However, if not, there is a 25% chance of being noticed. However, there is a 60% chance that you'll kill your target.

Win Condition
Be the last one standing
OR
Kill Jedi Piplup and survive till the end of the game.

[Sandslash7]

Excellent. Have you taken a look at the data? It paints a very vivid picture of the trends as they sit right now.

While balance isn't the primary issue, it is definitely something that I think is necessary to discuss and very pertinent to future games.


If you have any other comments, please do share them!

[PMysterious]

GOOD GRIEF! That is a lot of work you guys have done. I'm surprised that you guys took a lot of effort just to do one of the biggest posts I have seen in my life AND all of that data.

P.S. Don't use the role I have put in when Mr.X killed me, please. It is MY role and no one elses, okay?

Also, just for ATs sake.


OH GOD!! I AM IN CONTROL of the "BORED LOCKDOWN!"
End of story.

[Sandslash7]

It is a lot of work.

So many hours were spent on this thread. Because we love WW, and we want WW to level up and evolve. We felt that Gym WW is worth it, and that the players and the community here are worth that investment.

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

A couple of quick points:

1. Mods should write their own rules for their game. Rules should be about 10-15 and be concise. General explanation of how mafia is played should live elsewhere and not clutter up the opening posts.

2.

Wolf players are not good enough at both scumhunting/day play as well as fake role reveals
The scumhunting could be part of it. However it is near impossible to differentiate these two issues based on the play we have seen, because wolves generally are discovered based on a variety of scumhunting methods and role information.

I believe faking roles is a huge issue on the gym. Wolves should not have to be able to fake convincing roles in order to survive. In the Gym meta this is unfortunately the case. I know in XVI I tried to stop this by making lots of random roles and giving the wolves a safe-claim. XV also did this to an extent with the Imperial Agent role. These trends should continue.

EDIT: VT roles are great for this as well as SS7 pointed out. There ARE other ways around this as well.

3.

see XVI for needless bumping issues, as well as Section 5) XVI, the most recent game, had over 4400 posts in it.

Agreed. The posting that was not game related really needed to stop. At MafiaScum, I know mods can lock the thread at night. This may be a good idea here. Also, would it be possible to take out the double post eliminator in WW to remove the need for a lot of bumps. Also speech impeds should not limit word count too much as that distracts from the spirit of scum hunting and bloats the thread. (See Jp and AT's fake imped last game).

4. About rudeness. I disagree with the reasoning for banning it, but agree that it should be banned. Rudeness is a pretty potent tool for gauging someone's alignment. Unfortunately, it does have the side-effects of making the game less fun for other players, particularly new players. Since the gym does not have newb games or multiple games going on at once, I believe that rudeness should be banned to allow newer players the chance to learn. I disagree about it not being effective for scum-huntingthough.

[cabd]

Some personal things that bug me:

Well, actually, just one right now.

Too many people use school as an excuse to lurk and people buy it. I don't care if you're the best student in the whole wide world, if you cannot take time to play the game then the town should be feeling okay pressuring or voting for you. Allowing it makes it a safe wolf claim.

[Benzo]

You guys ever consider having assistants to mod a game? Design, balance, create roles- and get some input on adding twists into the plot?

I thought it was cool to be able to claim items, Pokeballs, ect...... but it was complicated. It did add a bit of play into the game- but the way it was distributed was tough. I think more thought is needed to play test the idea or collaborate with other WW hosts to see if there is a better system/way to implement "bonus" material before putting it into the game.

[PMysterious]

@cabd: Hey! I was telling the truth about that one! I'm 14 years old. Of course I would have school in April and May. I still had time for the game, but using school as an excuse? Nope. I'm not using it as an excuse.

[cabd]

One thing I do as a game host/mod is use random.org to assign items/extras/etc. Or, i'll use a hidden thing created at the beginning. For example, the 3rd vote on the person lynched day one gets XYZ item that night...

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

Originally Posted by cabd

Some personal things that bug me:

Well, actually, just one right now.

Too many people use school as an excuse to lurk and people buy it. I don't care if you're the best student in the whole wide world, if you cannot take time to play the game then the town should be feeling okay pressuring or voting for you. Allowing it makes it a safe wolf claim.

Oh, that reminds me of two more points.

1. Jason's suicide in XVI was against the spirit of the game, I felt. I think that the rules should be changed in the future to give bans in the next game to players that flagrantly violate the rules. TK's was at least strategical, but I still think the rule should be made to prevent people from doing that by banning them from the next game(s). I am not saying Jason should be banned. What he did was technically within the rules of the game at the time.

2. Priority should be given to players to register for games who are active. Players who are inactive for large periods of time or are not dedicated to the game should be given low priority for registration. I realize this is hard to do, but it could be done in a next-game basis. so if someone replaces out of a game due to inactivity, then they would not be allowed in the next game unless a shortage of players was had (or maybe they could only go on the waitlist). Then after THAT game they could enroll normally again.

[Sandslash7]

Cardz did institute the "Co-Mod" system into WW (which is VERY GOOD).

However it could be used to even greater effect, like you said Benzo, by allowing the Co-Mod access to the game before hand so they can add/tweak/balance things and throw in cool ideas.


Honestly in XVI the co-mod system didn't get much more above an occasional vote-count from Cardz. It can drastically be expanded for the games' benefit!

(did that answer your question?)


About the items. Indeed items can be a cool thing to add it, but I feel that they should be the rare exception, rather than something present in high quantities. Also as you were saying distribution is tough. More consideration on the part of the Mod who implements them would be required.

[cabd]

On the issue of vet status issues, there is in fact an experiment going on right now to test the notions of identity and input worth. It's on 6P, though. And still in progress.

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

We need to talk about randomization of roles as well I believe. I know different mods do it different ways. I did it 100% random. I took a list of roles and a list of players and randomized the players. Then I matched the first role with the first random player, etc. So totally random. AT, how exactly did you do XV?

SS and I were worried about possible imbalances due to bad luck with randomization. I know on mafiascum they always do what I did (100% random). They would be hateful of any other system. I understand there feelings on that, but I think the gym is different and should be treated differently. The primary difference between the gym and MS is this: The gym has one game going at a time while MS has LOTS of games going at once. Oftentimes players are in 4 games at once and simply join another when they die. That means that a game with bad random balance (in player skill) isn't a huge deal because you can just queue for another game and not care. On the gym, if an unbalanced game exists then all the players are locked in it until the end.

I do want to make an important point about this though. Each player should be equally likely to receive each role. Teams should be balanced by player skill without respect to who has the PRs. A new player and a very good player should be given the exact same chance at being: the alpha wolf, the seer, the priest, etc. This prevents the town and wolves from just lynching/NKing all the known good players in order to off all the PRs easily.

I think the mods should roughly divide players into 3 groups (newish players, semi-skilled players, and very skilled players). Then a proportion of each team should be drawn from each group. FOR EXAMPLE. Assume a 24 person game with 6 wolves and 18 town. Assume you have 4 "very skilled" players, 12 "semi-skilled" and 8 "new" players. The wolf team is 6/24 or 1/4 of the total population. Therefore 1/4 of each of these individual groups should be chosen as wolves. 4 / 4 = 1 very skilled wolf, 12 / 4 = 3 semi-experienced wolves, and 8 / 4 = 2 newish wolves. I realize that complications with this system include: the mods ability to judge player skill correctly and uneven numbers. The example I gave was very clean. Once the group of wolves has been randomized, the individual assignment of roles within that wolf group (and also the town group) should be randomized. That way a new player could theoretically end up with any role in the game. In fact, every player would be equally likely to receive any single role in the game. The advantage is that the teams are evenly balanced to skill.


An alternative to the above would be to simply do fully randomized but reroll the assignments until you think the teams look roughly even based on player skill alone. (Once again who gets PRs should not be accounted for at all, and all players should be equally likely to get one).

[Benzo]

@SS7- yes. With a Co-mod knowing the outline and had a bit of "play" in creating some of the roles- there is less likely to have too many issues between the players and the mods, as long as the two mods keep good communication between themselves.

I am not against the idea of items, rare is better (IMO) but high quantity is not so in favor to me.

[PMysterious]

Originally Posted by Arcanine/Arbok Master

We need to talk about randomization of roles as well I believe. I know different mods do it different ways. I did it 100% random. I took a list of roles and a list of players and randomized the players. Then I matched the first role with the first random player, etc. So totally random. AT, how exactly did you do XV?

SS and I were worried about possible imbalances due to bad luck with randomization. I know on mafiascum they always do what I did (100% random). They would be hateful of any other system. I understand there feelings on that, but I think the gym is different and should be treated differently. The primary difference between the gym and MS is this: The gym has one game going at a time while MS has LOTS of games going at once. Oftentimes players are in 4 games at once and simply join another when they die. That means that a game with bad random balance (in player skill) isn't a huge deal because you can just queue for another game and not care. On the gym, if an unbalanced game exists then all the players are locked in it until the end.

I do want to make an important point about this though. Each player should be equally likely to receive each role. Teams should be balanced by player skill without respect to who has the PRs. A new player and a very good player should be given the exact same chance at being: the alpha wolf, the seer, the priest, etc. This prevents the town and wolves from just lynching/NKing all the known good players in order to off all the PRs easily.

I think the mods should roughly divide players into 3 groups (newish players, semi-skilled players, and very skilled players). Then a proportion of each team should be drawn from each group. FOR EXAMPLE. Assume a 24 person game with 6 wolves and 18 town. Assume you have 4 "very skilled" players, 12 "semi-skilled" and 8 "new" players. The wolf team is 6/24 or 1/4 of the total population. Therefore 1/4 of each of these individual groups should be chosen as wolves. 4 / 4 = 1 very skilled wolf, 12 / 4 = 3 semi-experienced wolves, and 8 / 4 = 2 newish wolves. I realize that complications with this system include: the mods ability to judge player skill correctly and uneven numbers. The example I gave was very clean. Once the group of wolves has been randomized, the individual assignment of roles within that wolf group (and also the town group) should be randomized. That way a new player could theoretically end up with any role in the game. the same would go for a skilled player. The advantage is that the teams are evenly balanced to skill.


An alternative to the above would be to simply do fully randomized but reroll the assignments until you think the teams look roughly even based on player skill alone. (Once again who gets PRs should not be accounted for at all, and all players should be equally likely to get one).

And I got Ghetsis through this method?

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

I did fully random. So I wrote down all of your names in random.org. Then I hit "randomize list". Then I took the randomized players list and assigned them to the roles in order that the roles appeared in my notes. So yes. It was 100% totally random. I didn't try and do my proposed method of balancing player skill.

I think that this method is nice in theory, but doesn't work as well when you factor in the gym conditions: only one game is going at a time and all games are fairly long. This means that an imbalanced game will result in one drawn out and mostly uninteresting game that everyone watches. On MS the abundance of games makes this less of an issue.

EDIT: I do believe it is VERY important that all players be equally likely to receive all roles though.

[PMysterious]

I actually have an idea.

http://www.barryfunenglish.com/enter...domStudent.php

Yeah, I know it looks like a school device but let me tell you when assigning roles or doing things that anyone can get, this works wonders.

[ProHawk]

Very well thought out and written. I am not sure how helpful my comments will be as I have only participated in one game of WW, whereas this covers a whole range of them. However, I agree with the recommendations, and am sure they will indeed help in the balancing of the game.

I agree with vanilla townies, but only if they make up the majority and not the minority. Perhaps roles that would have normally been given out at the beginning of the game can be progressively added mid-game based on how the players are playing. Perhaps it could be used to "award" players and give an incentive toward improving meta.

Unfortunately the "heart" of the thread is where I don't necessarily agree on all points.

Vet Reverence

In terms of vet reverence, I can see how it needs to stop, but I don't see how it can stop. Social interaction will present a group with leaders and followers. People can and will be influenced by others in one way or another. A major influence will be the strength and skill of the player. I think that vet reverence is just a factor in a social game. The biggest thing that can be done to change vet reverence is to get new players into the game. Indeed, it is an area that only can be improved individually.

Mod/Role Over-Reliance

The Mod/Role over-reliance is where my inexperience is making this difficult to understand. We talk a lot of using the day play analysis, but all I can see out of day play analysis is WIFOM. The examples given about analyzing day play are "uncovering a trend in voting or the way one player acts about another player". From my understanding of WIFOM, trying to analyze the actions of a player is a dangerous way to play and will ALSO lead to unhelpful lynches, bandwagons and lucky hits or misses.

While I agree that both day play reads AND update/information should be used in conjunction, I feel that this section devalues the use of update/information too much. I would argue that day play reads should be used as secondary evidence, while update/information should be used as primary evidence.

I think that rather than decreasing reliance on mod/role information, they should work on improving their use of day activity analysis in conjunction with factual information.

Plethora of small meaningless posts

Aside from bumps and posts without any content toward the game, I don't see how one can judge what is meaningless and what is not. What I don't understand is how are many posts with only small bits of information any different from large posts with a great deal of information?

In terms of thread length, it would increase only the number of pages and post counts, but the content would be the same split into 10 small posts or put into 1 long post. It would take a person the same amount of time to read through a giant post as it would be to read a bunch of small posts. Small posts can encourage thought; size does not always matter. I suppose this section could have benefited from a definition such as was given for vet reverence.

The other problem with this section is the argument is made for one faction. What if small meaningless posts are an intentional part of ones play style to accomplish exactly what has been stated that it accomplishes? If the town stops paying attention for any reason (small post or otherwise) that is the fault of the town, not the small poster, and they (the town) should reap the consequences.

Responses out of emotionalism

While I agree that rudeness and demeaning remarks should be left out of an argument, I believe that emotion can have an important role both in obtaining reads and revealing information intentionally or unintentionally. It may be correct in that logically, emotional responses are detrimental, however it is an important tool in a social game. I don't feel that it should be outlawed. Again, as was stated, it is a matter of personal improvement to attempt to keep emotions out of responses. I like the summary stated that players should be weary of excessive emotionalism.

[cabd]

In terms of vet reverence, I can see how it needs to stop, but I don't see how it can stop. Social interaction will present a group with leaders and followers. People can and will be influenced by others in one way or another. A major influence will be the strength and skill of the player. I think that vet reverence is just a factor in a social game. The biggest thing that can be done to change vet reverence is to get new players into the game. Indeed, it is an area that only can be improved individually.

Which brings us to the solution I'm testing right now. Namely, what would happen if every player was given a new username, with zero posts. And then were forbidden to reveal their actual name?

The answer so far is that it makes players use more logic and day hunting, and much less night play. Also, it makes reads more valuable than evr since you cannot use past games as "cheat reads"

[desufnoc]

I think it is making the game on 6p alot more interesting

[jpulice]

This is a great write up, thank you for doing this. One thing which should be considered is true majority votes to lynch. Stop the plurality lynches please. Forcing the town to vote makes people step up and take a stance. I find the lack of voting to be a major town asset for a few reasons.

1. No one likes to be on the lynching block. The natural instinct is to fire back or consider your attacker scummy in the process. This helps create some confusion for the wolves.
2. Once the count gets to about L-3 or L-4 you are all but dead, so it forces early reveals. Fine if your town...
3. There is something to be said for actually hammering someone also. Someone has to end the day and it can be very nerve wracking as town to drop the hammer. It ends the day, you tend to look scummy (if it's to quick).

Also it just makes the days drag out. I'm sure there are more reasons floating in my head but I gotta get ready for work.

[King Piplup]

Originally Posted by jpulice

This is a great write up, thank you for doing this. One thing which should be considered is true majority votes to lynch. Stop the plurality lynches please. Forcing the town to vote makes people step up and take a stance. I find the lack of voting to be a major town asset for a few reasons.

1. No one likes to be on the lynching block. The natural instinct is to fire back or consider your attacker scummy in the process. This helps create some confusion for the wolves.
2. Once the count gets to about L-3 or L-4 you are all but dead, so it forces early reveals. Fine if your town...
3. There is something to be said for actually hammering someone also. Someone has to end the day and it can be very nerve wracking as town to drop the hammer. It ends the day, you tend to look scummy (if it's to quick).

Also it just makes the days drag out. I'm sure there are more reasons floating in my head but I gotta get ready for work.

So, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you proposing getting rid of the "Day ends after X votes" concept? If so, I believe that, if anything, the town needs to actually lynch once they have a target. All the continuation of that day does is leave the potential for mis-lynches. JMHO.

Originally Posted by PMysterious http://pokegym.net/forums/images/wpo...s/viewpost.gif
You are Darth Jigglypuff. A Pokemon Sith Lord. You were the youngest Pokemon Jedi and loved by many. However, Jedi Piplup attacked you with no reasoning behind it and you died around 10 minutes later. After a few days you became revived and now you want revenge on Jedi Piplup to this day. You also kill and destroy everything in your path because of how dark you became.

Role: (Jedi Hunter): During the night, you can PM the moderater the name of 1 alive player. If that player is Jedi Piplup, you WILL kill him with no question. However, if not, there is a 25% chance of being noticed. However, there is a 60% chance that you'll kill your target.

Win Condition
Be the last one standing
OR
Kill Jedi Piplup and survive till the end of the game.

Why....Why....Why....???? The destruction of Piplup is not permitted by any means!!!

(Arg, you aren't over that yet??? )

[PokeChampofPokeBeach]

Fantastic read, thanks for writing this! I definitely learned a bit, there more than a few points where I realized "Oh snap, I did that!" xD *cough vet reverence cough* This seems like it will become a resource for both players AND moderators alike.

For the record, I don't think Jason should be banned from the next game. However, his suicide is very anti-SOTG, considering he did not play to his win condition. As a townie, I personally feel it was his obligation to at least the day run its course. Ending the day he way he did is anti-town, which is against his win condition.

However, seeing as we seem to be going through a bit of a transformational period anyway, I'm fine with letting it slide. In the future, I would highly recommend banning suicide on policy, at risk of being banned from the game for either a temporary or permanent amount of time.

I have no other thoughts, very nice read.