Slaking DRX, is it really as bad as it seems?

[Fox_Master51]

Even as the eternal optimistic Pokemon Connoisseur that I claim to be, even I have to agree that the new Slaking's Ability is just plain stupid. If the opponent's active is a Basic then Slaking cannot attack. They really give this to us now of all times? In a metagame brimming with Basic Pokemon? So Slaking must turn to a certain pile of garbage for help. It's attack on the other hand is pretty cool. Crushing Blow does 100 damage with the added effect of discarding an Energy attached to the Defending Pokemon. All for a nominal fee of 4 Energy. Despite my above ranting I think It could make a fun rogue deck when paired with Garbodor. The sucky thing is that unless you run like 4 Tool Scrapper, you can't run other Ability Pokemon (Tool Scrapper being for trashing the Tool on Garbodor, to use other Abilities). But that doesn't short you out too much. There are still things like Terrakion and such to aid in your efforts.

Anyway, what do you guys think about a Slaking / Garbodor rogue deck?

[JandPDS]

Originally Posted by Fox_Master51

Even as the eternal optimistic Pokemon Connoisseur that I claim to be, even I have to agree that the new Slaking's Ability is just plain stupid. If the opponent's active is a Basic then Slaking cannot attack. They really give this to us now of all times? In a metagame brimming with Basic Pokemon? So Slaking must turn to a certain pile of garbage for help. It's attack on the other hand is pretty cool. Crushing Blow does 100 damage with the added effect of discarding an Energy attached to the Defending Pokemon. All for a nominal fee of 4 Energy. Despite my above ranting I think It could make a fun rogue deck when paired with Garbodor. The sucky thing is that unless you run like 4 Tool Scrapper, you can't run other Ability Pokemon (Tool Scrapper being for trashing the Tool on Garbodor, to use other Abilities). But that doesn't short you out too much. There are still things like Terrakion and such to aid in your efforts.

Anyway, what do you guys think about a Slaking / Garbodor rogue deck?

Hmmm 100 damge for 4 energy on a stage two that cant hit most of the metagame, when Empoleon can do 120 for one energy? I dont think you will have much success with it but good luck.

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

"Slaking DRX, is it really as bad as it seems?"

Yeah, I'd say so.

[kirbyking]

Originally Posted by AlmightyGoldenGarchomp

"Slaking DRX, is it really as bad as it seems?"

Yeah, I'd say so.

You are wrong it's worse.

[GoldenSwablu]

I am doubtful that this will ever be remotely good deck, but some ideas:
-I think running it w/ Bouffalant DRX is better than running it w/ Garbodor. Takes out EXs, and takes up way less space.
-Needs something like Tornadus or Tornadus EX as a fighting counter.
-It could use Aspertia City Gym when it gets released.
-DCE abuse, a lot of it.
-Needs Darkrai EX for free retreat or many, many Switch.
-Needs a form of energy accel/movement of some sort. Eels, Energy Switch, Klinklang/Hydreigon, Terrakion EX, Emboar, etc.

[Fox_Master51]

Originally Posted by kirbyking

You are wrong it's worse.

You guys don't have to rub it in, ya know

[kirbyking]

Originally Posted by Fox_Master51

You guys don't have to rub it in, ya know

Sorry couldn't help it :/ I don't think this will truly go anywhere in the meta game. This is one of those cards with an ability you wonder why it was ever created.

[JuStuPro]

The Truth (hehehe ^^) is that it will not get anywhere in the Top Tiers with the cards we have and the cards that will come until November.
However, just to stop thinking about it by saying it is a bad card doesn't help either, so let's rethink about it.
The additional effect on the attack is really nice. The HP is also good, with Aspertia gym and Giant Cloak it is a MONSTER to take down.
It would have 190 HP and only give up one prize while discarding your opponents.
Additionally, Fighting isn't as important anymore as it was, because it doesn't counter all the top decks anymore.
However, the attack cost and the ability which makes it only usable with Garbador or a second attacker is pretty bad.
By the way, to compare it to Empoleon with the "Empoleon is doing 120 for one Energy" arguement is just not right, cause normally it only does 120 against unprepared players and Gartaria, everybody else knows how to play without using all of his Bench space.
However, to make Slaking work we need Aspertia, so we can also abuse the ether engine. This makes it at least more possible to build a Slaking T3 without needing 2 DCE's.
To fit anything together without leaving out something important is pretty hard, but if someone would be able to do it it could be a somewhat decent Surprise deck, but to do this is a pretty hard task...

Another possibility could be to build a tank deck without Garbador and with things like Bouffalant and Blissey DEX...
I will try to build a list for both ideas and post it here later.

At least we could try to make this card somewhat working instead off giving up wihtout even trying, it doesn't hurt anybody of us investing a little bit of time in a card with such an awesome Pokémon =P

[Fox_Master51]

I never said it would be Top Tier. I just said it would be a fun rogue deck. Sorry I didn't specify on that.

---------- Post added 08/02/2012 at 09:53 AM ----------

Originally Posted by JuStuPro

Another possibility could be to build a tank deck without Garbador and with things like Bouffalant and Blissey DEX...
I will try to build a list for both ideas and post it here later.

At least we could try to make this card somewhat working instead off giving up wihtout even trying, it doesn't hurt anybody of us investing a little bit of time in a card with such an awesome Pokémon =P

Please do I'd like to see that. Slaking isn't all bad so It will come as a surprise to some.

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by Fox_Master51

I never said it would be Top Tier. I just said it would be a fun rogue deck. Sorry I didn't specify on that.

There's a big difference between a fun deck and a rogue deck. Rogue decks can be fun, but most fun decks are absolutely not rogue.

Slaking could be a lot of fun, sure. But it's the farthest thing from rogue imaginable.

Edit: Let me clarify what I mean by this!

A rogue deck - the standardly accepted definition in upper-tier circles - is one that counters the metagame. It's a deck that takes a combination of cards and turns them against the common decks, beating things by attacking from an angle no one is used to.

I'm old-fashioned, but some of the best examples of rogues I can think of are Sablelock and Flygon Lock. (Locking is not the only way to do this, but it was pretty successful in my time.) Sableye won games by destroying your hand turn 1 - no one expected it when it first appeared, and it completely wrecked the tournament, which happened to be US Nationals. Flygon won games by trapping something useless active in a format where everyone had stopped running Switch, and using a poke-body to mill the opponent into oblivion. Again, it completely wrecked the tournament... which was Worlds. (Lost in finals iirc.)

Rogue decks' huge success, when executed correctly, earns them a lot of idolization and people are always thinking that making a "rogue" deck is the way to win games. But they're poorly understood. Flygon RR was a great card already, and Flygon Lv. X was well-known for its utility at destroying other Lv. X cards. Sableye was already one of the best starters in the game, and everyone ran Judge already, too. Rogues aren't "bad cards made good" - they're good cards, cards that we know are already good, used in an unexpected way.

If you want to make fun decks, that's fine - you probably shouldn't be asking for help, though, because we're going to be looking for the competitive angle, and lots of fun decks aren't very competitive. Even though they might be loads and loads of fun.

[Fox_Master51]

Huh. I keep thinking 'rogue' means that it's cards that no one uses or decks that aren't Top Tier or something like that. There should really be a Pokemon Dictionary on this site.

[jerin]

I've had the same thought your having. Maybe with some sort of crushing hammer and enhanced hammer enhancement. Add darks and sayble to re use. The disruption between that an the attack might be nice. If its all dark already add new hydregion and move energy so you can max potion. Just some thoughts.

[Otaku]

Kayle: To be fair, like many TCG terms both contemporary and historical usage for a "Rogue Deck" do not require the deck win. Perhaps this was the original intent, or perhaps it Evolve from the success notable "rogue" decks have had; people ignore all the "failed rogue decks" or don't realize that some people were going rogue just because they hate playing established archetypes, not because they were trying to "metagame" a win.

[Fox_Master51]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Kayle: To be fair, like many TCG terms both contemporary and historical usage for a "Rogue Deck" do not require the deck win. Perhaps this was the original intent, or perhaps it Evolve from the success notable "rogue" decks have had; people ignore all the "failed rogue decks" or don't realize that some people were going rogue just because they hate playing established archetypes, not because they were trying to "metagame" a win.

There we go thats what I wanted to say.

[Otaku]

A Slaking deck, by Kayle's definition, just needs to succeed to be "rogue"; literally success or failure dictates whether it is a "rogue" deck or a failed deck. Not trying to pick on Kayle or anything, but sadly we Pokemon players are a bit sloppy with our jargon. This reminds me why players such as myself get really picky about preserving terminology; while it is true that people will adapt their language over time, it needs to be done with guidance. Notice how some terms lose their usefulness because the original definition is either no longer the primary definition, or in effect at all.

Deck "Tiers" came to this game from Magic players... and Tier referred to how popular a deck was, not how well it did. Generally speaking, the better a deck performed the more widely it was played, so it is easy to see how many people merely assumed it referred to how "good" a deck was. By now, in Pokemon the definition has changed; Tiers do indeed refer to how well a deck is performing, even if it is not heavily played. Personally, while I care what deck is strongest, that is highly subjective, so knowing what deck is most played is probably more useful, since that is quantifiable (but still affects the metagame).

TecH, when the term was coined, was very explicit about its use; it only applied to Trainers and was intended for single cards. I believe they then relaxed it a bit to allow for non-attacking Pokemon, and up to two copies of said card. The term further relaxed to include attacking Pokemon and Energy (though the latter was mostly because it took that long for an Energy card to be worth "TecHing" into a deck). Also the crazy spelling was dropped (it wasn't vital).

Now I have to fight to prevent people from mistaking "splashing" with "teching", or even simply running; putting three copies of a Trainer does not count as "tech"; you're just running that Trainer! It certainly doesn't apply to running a significantly fleshed out Pokemon line; that is called splashing. Three of a Basic Pokemon is splashing if the Pokemon isn't fully supported by the deck, or simply running it if the Pokemon is. Two slots for a 1-0-1 Stage 2 line in a deck that runs Rare Candy can now be considered Tech (especially if it isn't meant for attacking), but even a 2-1-2 line is probably too significant.

"Going rogue" as a term predates TCGs; simplified it means breaking the rules. In a TCG, it would be the "rules" of how to win. Surprise is a huge advantage for most TCGs, and Pokemon is no exception; the best players know themselves, know their decks, and know the metagame. A "rogue" deck is thus an unknown; obviously the individual cards are not a secret, but even if it is just how the deck runs the championship player now has to wing it, to "guess" how best to play.

Under times of stress, people will follow routine, instinct. That is why high risk jobs drill proper procedure until it is second nature; the cop/firefighter/soldier/EMT won't have time to think during a crisis situation. No one's life may be on the line, but most players value victory high enough that preparation for a tournament includes drilling so that the best moves are second nature. Rogue decks confuse all this; completely alien decks by being unknown, new takes on older decks by "working the wrong way". It won't let you win just by being rogue, but eventually it became apparent that a top player with a rogue deck has an incredible edge.

Eventually I might get around to commenting directly on Slaking. I am trying to make Garbodor/Slaking work. Right now, I think I just need Ether to do it.

[yoshi1001]

The only other thing I could think of is Mew Ex, which ironically has less HP and gives up two prizes, but at least it doesn't have that pesky ability!

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

even if evolutions are slowly returning, you still have Darkrai-EX, Mewtwo-EX, Tornadus-EX, Terrakion, Terrakion-EX, Rayquaza-EX, Groudon-EX, Rayquaza, and soon Landorus-EX and Keldeo-EX. Now, if you go to some high ranking tournament (states at the least), how many do you think you will see? I darn lot, I'd say. Slaking is useful in its own way, but when it is in a format with so many powerful basics, can it really keep up? Lets say you run it with Garbodor. Thats 2-1-2 or so slaking and 2-2 Garbodor for modest lines of both. Thats 9 cards of your deck. Add in the rare candies, tool cards, and hammers, and there's not too much room left for a ton of other useful stuff. Even then, is it worth it? A stage 2 that removes energies and does 80 for 2 DCEs, but is harmless to the entire non-dragon meta? It could be a fun league or BRs deck, but I don't think he's going anywhere, especially with the OHKO from Terrakion and no Eviolite.

[David Thomas]

Slaking DRX, is it really as bad as it seems?

Yes.

seventeen

[Kayle]

I feel pretty misunderstood and confused by Otaku's posts here, regarding the definition of rogue and whatnot. x_x

What my point comes down to is that Slaking is a bad card. There is no way to get around it. There is no reason to use it, other than the fact that LOL, IT'S SLAKING, HAHAHA. (Which is a pretty good reason in some circles ^ ^.) Any deck you build with Slaking that has a shred of success, could likely be improved by swapping Slaking out for another Pokemon line, with greater speed and an ability that lets it actually attack the majority of the format. I'm not hating on the card (well, maybe I am, but not blindly) - it feels extremely obvious that the card itself is simply inferior to pretty much every other option out there. There is NO reason to play it, except that you don't want to play anything else, and/or you just want to play Slaking because hey, it's Slaking.

Bad as it seems, yes. Unusable no, but exactly as bad as it seems.

[homeofmew]

Even when using Garbordor, the attack is bulky and doesn't do enough damage to basic exs. it is a pretty bad card lol

[Otaku]

100 damage and discarding an Energy isn't enough?

As has been stated, the Ability seems to almost cripple the card. My difficulties when testing come from getting both Slaking and Garbodor set-up ASAP. One or the other is within reason, but both strain my build's resources. This was like just one to three battles, so I am really hoping it was a bad build.

Get the attack going fast enough, and as the DCEs, Prisms, etc. hit the discard pile, Slaking has time to get two shots in. What about Energy acceleration? Remember, Garbodor is rocking your Bench; Abilities are all shut down.

So 100 over two turns plus Energy discarded. If it isn't enough to go toe-to-toe with Pokemon EX (when Abilities are shut off), it's only short by like 10 points of damage (e.g. enough that you would 2HKO a Pokemon EX through Eviolite).

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by Otaku

100 damage and discarding an Energy isn't enough?

[...]

So 100 over two turns plus Energy discarded. If it isn't enough to go toe-to-toe with Pokemon EX (when Abilities are shut off), it's only short by like 10 points of damage (e.g. enough that you would 2HKO a Pokemon EX through Eviolite).

The card has 150 HP, does 100 damage for 4 energy, and discards an energy. It has 4 retreat and a weakness to a common tech attacker.

Garchomp has 140 HP, does 100 damage for 1 energy IF you have the Altarias out. It has 1 retreat and a weakness to itself.

Garchomp is MUCH faster even when factoring in Altarias, much more easily swarmed, much more tactical thanks to its more agile retreat, it packs access to a secondary attack that will do even more damage (for only a second energy, no less), and it doesn't have a crippling Ability that you need to work around in order to hit most of the format.

The are only two reasons you would build a Slaking deck and not a Garchomp deck. Either you don't have the money to build a meta deck, or you just don't care to play the best card and want to smack someone with Slaking. There is no argument that Slaking is in any way superior to Garchomp.

I could make other comparisons. This is the most apt IMO.

[JuStuPro]

Did anyone ever say that Slaking is better then Garchomp? I think not... It's attack is still not that bad at all, don't forget it can discard any energy, not just special. This can bring opponents in big trouble pretty fast.
And believe it or not, there are people who also play Pokémon for fun and not just for competitive reasons. Additionally Slaking is such a cool Pokémon, I think it is the Pokémon where most people can identify with. ^^
If you want to win tournaments, yeah then just play Garchomp, but there is no reason then to say again and again that Slaking is bad... we all know this XD
But if someone wants to see the WTF face of there opponent if you bench a Slakoth, then let him try it, and who knows, probably anyone can really make this work...

However, Slaking Garbador will not work, I tested it a lot and it is just no good. Hoever, the idea of pairing Slaking with MewEX is pretty interesting. you could pair it with Eels if you want it (please I don't want to hear that I could just play Zekeels, thats to simple ^^).
Or you could search out the DCE's with Roserade and put something like Pinsir for early disruption in it. It would be like a MewEXToolbox...

A rough deck with that could look like:

Pokémon(18):
2-2-2 Slaking
4 Mew EX
2-2 Roserade
2 Pinsir
2 Sableye

T/S/S (34)
2 Rare Candy
4 Level Ball
3 Devolution Spray
4 Eviolite
2 Switch
4 Pokémon Catcher
2 Pokémon Communication
4 Cheren
4 N
3 Juniper
2 Recycle

Energy (8)
4 DCE
4 Prism

It is no detailled or tested list, I don't know if it will work as I think it could, However, it makes great use of Mews ability. What should be in there would be Tool Scrapper, does anybody know what to put out for?

[Otaku]

If one is going to do a head-on comparison, do a head-on comparison. Spin it (that is, cherry pick which aspects you are comparing) and I'll kick into CotD mode and do a detailed analysis to point out the spin. Since I already actually did, I'll send it to Kayle via PM, and if he decides to simply delete it, well I'll will have made the key points here, so honestly that would be a reasonable response.

Most already knew Garchomp easily outperforms Slaking, but the questions are "By how much?" and "Why?".

A lot of players are wondering how successful it will actually be. I am still trying to avoid becoming a skeptic, but it looks like Garchomp will be one of those decks that is hard to beat if it sets up fast and is hard to win with when it doesn't... and the ratio of those scenarios one-to-the-other may keep it from being a reliable tournament winner (though always a threat to face).

Originally Posted by Kayle

The card has 150 HP, does 100 damage for 4 energy, and discards an energy. It has 4 retreat and a weakness to a common tech attacker.

Garchomp has 140 HP, does 100 damage for 1 energy IF you have the Altarias out. It has 1 retreat and a weakness to itself.

Nothing stated about Slaking was incorrect, but if you're doing a straight-up head-to-head, you don't get to factor Altaria, and if you're including supporting Pokemon, Garbodor or other possible partners for Slaking like Mew EX must be included. Cards face off against cards, combos against combos, and decks against decks. This wasn't even needed to prove a point; Mach Cut is a great attack; it may hit for only 60% of the damage of Crushing Blow, and it may only discard Special Energy, but it also only requires and not .

Fighting Weakness is one of the worst in the coming format, but Dragon-Type Weakness is one of the few that may legitimately be worse. If you're going to emphasize the "common tech attacker", then you need to bring up that Garchomp isn't Mewtwo EX. What do I mean?

Mewtwo EX became the only Psychic Pokemon worth playing (not that a lot were all that good before it debuted). The Japanese tournament results and reports from early testing indicate Garchomp will merely be one of several Dragon-Type Pokemon worth playing, and thus will be getting drilled by several other tournament winning Pokemon. That is why players dwelt on Mewtwo EX "...only being Weak to itself".

Originally Posted by Kayle

Garchomp is MUCH faster even when factoring in Altarias, much more easily swarmed, much more tactical thanks to its more agile retreat, it packs access to a secondary attack that will do even more damage (for only a second energy, no less), and it doesn't have a crippling Ability that you need to work around in order to hit most of the format.

Correct, but don't leave out that it does appear to have just as resource intensive a deck build as Garbodor/Slaking, and doesn't shut down the Abilities some of the hyped decks right now. Note that Garbodor Slaking isn't shutting down the entire decks, though; you can shut down Dark Trance but if Darkrai EX is already ready to go, it can slug it out with Slaking and still come out ahead (though at least discarding Energy off of it may slow down a second Darkrai EX). Slaking are so slow to prepare, though that it would be hard to keep pressure on, and of course if Garbodor is KOed or switched off... we know who wins.

Originally Posted by Kayle

The are only two reasons you would build a Slaking deck and not a Garchomp deck. Either you don't have the money to build a meta deck, or you just don't care to play the best card and want to smack someone with Slaking. There is no argument that Slaking is in any way superior to Garchomp.

I could make other comparisons. This is the most apt IMO.

Who has said otherwise? If my conjecture that a Garbodor/Slaking deck could be strong if the set-up issues (including Energy acceleration) could be addressed... that isn't like saying it is better than Garchomp right now (if it would be even then).

[Kayle]

Originally Posted by JuStuPro

Did anyone ever say that Slaking is better then Garchomp? I think not... It's attack is still not that bad at all, don't forget it can discard any energy, not just special.

I don't have the time right now to respond to both this full post and Otaku's full post. It seems like my argument is rapidly becoming irrelevant anyway, but I still feel pretty misunderstood.

Slaking is a bad card; that much we must accept. (100 for 4 is bad. IT JUST IS. You can still use it, but it's still bad.) It isn't unusable, and it isn't without some good qualities, but overall its numerous weaknesses make it overall a poor choice for any deck from a competitive mindset.

If you're using it, that's fine. But there will pretty much always be better options. If you're going for a Garbodor lock deck, for example, you'll have Cobalion to compete with as a secondary attacker.

If you don't care that there are better options, and/or if you're just interested in making Slaking work, then go ahead and theorize away! More power to you, and if I had more time and energy and didn't feel kind of like I was digging myself a grave already, I'd be happy to help come up with ideas.

But the question the thread asked was, "Is Slaking really that bad of a card?" And no matter how you spin it, the answer is yes.