Trying to rectify Electrode -ex with Pokemon Retriever

[Dendrobatida]

I was told earlier this week that pokemon retriever could not be used to shuffle less than 3 pokemon into your deck. The card says:

"Search your discard pile for Basic Pokémon and Evolution cards. You may either show 1 Basic Pokémon or Evolution card to your opponent and put it into your hand, or show a combination of 3 Basic Pokémon or Evolution cards to your opponent and shuffle them into your deck." [from the Pokemon-tcg.com database]

The compendium states:

"Q. If I try to use Pokemon Retriever but have less than 3 Pokemon in my discard pile, am I allowed to shuffle the 2 Pokemon or the 1 Pokemon (whichever the case may be) into my deck? Or am I forced to choose 1 of those Pokemon and put it into my hand?
A. It's either three into the deck or one into the hand. You cannot put less than three into your deck. (Feb 10, 2005 PUI Rules Team)"

Seems fine to me. The wording on pokemon retriever does not include "Up to," ergo, it's three in the deck or one in the hand, no more, no less. That I get. What puzzles me is the corresponding ruling about Electrode -ex in light of the decision about retriever (or vice versa, depending on your angle). Electrode -ex's pokemon power states:

"Poké-POWER: Extra Energy Bomb
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may discard Electrode ex and all the cards attached to it (this counts as Knocking Out Electrode ex). If you do, search your discard pile for 5 Energy cards and attach them to any of your Pokémon (excluding Pokémon-ex) in any way you like. This power can't be used if Electrode ex is affected by a Special Condition. " [from the Pokemon-tcg.com database]

The compendium states:

"Q. What happens if you try to use Electrode-EX's "Extra Energy Bomb" and you have less than 5 energy cards in your discard pile?
A. If you have five, you must take five. If you have less than five, you must take whatever you have. It does not say "up to 5" on the card. (Oct 28, 2004 PUI Rules Team)"

To me, the wording seems identical; thus, if the two were to be consistent, if you decide to use pokemon retriever to shuffle pokemon back into your deck, you must take as many as possible up to three (i.e., if there are two, and you choose the shuffle in option, you must take two rather than just one. If there are 3, you must take all three, etc., as electrode is currently ruled) or, alternatively, if you decide to use electrode -ex's pokepower, you must have at least five in the discard to garner the effect (as retriever is currently ruled). However, the lack of "up to" in retriever negates your ability to use its shuffle-in option, whereas the lack of "up to" in Electrode's power has been ruled to imply an "up to 5, provided you are taking the maximum number you possibly can without going over five." How would I explain this discrepency to a younger player at our league who uses both cards?

Cheers,

-Jake/Dendro

[metagross]

I guess that if Retriever would be worded to take either 2 to hand or shuffle 3 then it will be ruled, that if you have 1 in discard pile you have to take that one into your hand. Seems to me, that because you fullfil requirements for one effect and not for the other, you have to use the one, you meet requirements for.

[PokePop]

There is one big difference between the cards that you are ignoring.
Pokemon Retriever tells you what to do with a quantity of cards less than three.
It tells you to take one and put it in your hand.
Therefore, you have a choice that you can fullfill.
Electrode ex has no such choice so you do the most that you can.

[Prime]

What happens if the Pokemon Retriever is played and there are no pokemon in the discard pile?

[Orange Soda]

Then you wasted a trainer, I guess.

[Professor Aspen]

Nope, I don't think you can play it... You have to play a trainer for a purpose.

[Prime]

I know there have been rulings that defy that.

Q. Are you allowed to play Energy Recycle System if you have no basic energy cards in your discard pile?
A. No, you are not allowed. "Search" is used here as a general term. (Mar 18, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

That's my answer, but I feel there has been rulings about searching and finding none.

Q. If you use an Energy Search and don't find any Basic Energy, do you still discard the Energy Search?
A. Yes, you would still discard it. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

Q. If you use an Energy Search and don't find any Basic Energy, can you then play another Energy Search even though you know it will fail?
A. Yes, you can search for energy cards even if you know you won't find them. They exist as legal cards, therefore they can be searched for. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team; Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

Wow, look how that contradicts itself.

Q. Could I use Friend Ball to copy a psychic type even if I don't play psychic in my deck?
A. Yes. Since it is theoretically possible that you may have a Psychic type Basic in your deck, you can play it. (Jun 3, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

I know this doesn't answer the main question, but it definitely adds more to the pot. PokePop says that there are only two options, put 1 in the hand or 3 into deck, but it seems that you might be able to get a third option, do nothing. And if that's true, why is there no fourth option, get up to 3 and put it into your hand. It would just make sense really.

EDIT: After a little thought, I feel this is the answer to my question. When searching the deck for a card, there is always the possibility that the card could be in there. So even if you don't find it, you can still search for it again. But with the discard pile, because you can look through it as much as you want and so can the opponent, there is not always a chance that a card is in there and so you can't just search and not find it.

[NoPoke]

it isn't play EXACTLY as written. More like do what the game designers say on the Japanese cards. Even that isn't quite weak enough. Play as the game designers tell us is correct even if that disagrees with the card text. There I think I'm finally getting the hang of pokemon rullings *grin*

[PokePop]

Here is why these rulings are different:

Everyone can KNOW what is in your discard pile.
It is available knowledge.

What is in your deck is not available knowledge. You may happen to know because you just did a search last turn, but in principle, the contents of your deck is unknown to the game in general.

So, you can't try to take something from your discard pile that is obviously not there. The "Game" knows that the card is not there and won't let you play the Trainer.
Your deck is another matter. The "Game" doesn't know what's there or not, only what could legally be there. So it knows that you don't have a card that evolves from Blaziken because that's not a legal card. So you can't play a Wally's Trainer on a Blaziken.
However, the "game" does not know that you have used up all the energy cards in your deck even if you know it, and so you can play an Energy Search card to search your deck.
See the difference?

[SteveP]

yah, at MtnW Regionals, this issue came up with a Rocket's Ball where the player used one Rocket's Ball to no effect (no Pokemon to retrieve from his deck), then did it again, just to deplete his hand.

If you played the Ball once with no effect, and you've not recycled any Pokemon, then playing the Ball again seems wrong. IMO, there should be a rule that states "actions may NOT be taken if it's known that none of the effects can be achieved." However, "searching your deck" COULD be considered an effect, since doing so requires a playable action, as stated indirectly by Prime.

Regarding the Pokemon Retriever question, if a card offers two choices, if one effect can be achieved fully and the other effect not, then fully-achieveable must be chosen, IMO. That's how we do it in other TCGs I play.

FYI NOTE:

On more than one occasion, I've had to stop a player from looking at the cards in his deck when using a Pokemon Retriever and/or Energy Recycle. Searching your deck is granted only when you play the applicable action. Retriever and Recycle DON'T allow that action.

[Dendrobatida]

Originally Posted by PokePop

There is one big difference between the cards that you are ignoring.
Pokemon Retriever tells you what to do with a quantity of cards less than three.
It tells you to take one and put it in your hand.
Therefore, you have a choice that you can fullfill.
Electrode ex has no such choice so you do the most that you can.

Didn't ignore that- posted it as part of the card text in my initial query, and carefully considered it prior to asking. Here's why I asked anyway, vis a vis the text to which you're referring: it doesn't tell you what to do with a quantity less than three. It tells you what you may do with a quantity that is exactly one, provided you want that effect. The card, using "may," gives you a choice. My initial post deals with the trainer in situations when the player using the card chooses the second effect. Given that choice, I would think the first option would be irrelevant once it wasn't chosen; if they had the same effect (both going into the hand, for example) perhaps I could see the two being of equal value.

[The Gorn]

It seems to me like the wording on Extra Energy Bomb has been misinterpretted.

Town Volunteers was ruled 5 or none if you recall.

I'm not sure why the difference. It should be 5 or none. It doesn't say "up to."

Electrode-EX's "Extra Energy Bomb" attack should be re-evaluated.

Dr. Dendro! I like it!

[NoPoke]

or the all important 'upto' didn't make it onto the English card.

When was Town Volunteers changed. I am still under the possibly incorrect notion that you take 5 if there are 5 or more applicable cards in your discard pile otherwise you take the maximum. There has to be at least one applicable card in order for Town Volunteers to be played.

[Dendrobatida]

Originally Posted by The Gorn

Town Volunteers was ruled 5 or none if you recall.

Might've been Time Capsule to which Mr. Gorn refers.

[The Gorn]

How about the ruling on Energy Recycle System

QUOTE: "Well, since it does not say "up to", it's either shuffle in exactly 3 Basic energies or you can put 1 Basic energy into your hand. If you only have 2 Basic energies in the discard pile, then 1 to your hand is the only option available. (Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)"

Mr. Gorn. SWEET

[Bitoru_Sama]

And what about Life Herb being used in a pokemon with no damage counters/no special conditions? Since it says "all if there is less than six" zero is included?

[NoPoke]

zero now seems to be reserved primarily for your hand size. So unless there is damage or a special condition I'd say that you can't deliberately waste Life Herb.

The Gorn: I haven't found a reference in The Compendium EX that says that Town Volunteers is now 5 or nothing. Doesn't mean that you are incorrect as rullings can take time to get into the compendium. Do you recall where you say the rulling?

seems like Broken Lizard has been asking this very question for a while...

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6713

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7164

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7570

and then in the June 10th compendium update....
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread...own+volunteers we get an answer but Lizards original posts remain without a reply.

I have found nothing in the OP card errata
and nothing on the POP rullings forum either.

[again, this doesn't mean it isn't there just that I can't find the rulling that you are thinking of]

[PokeMontoya]

I think someone has been watchin the Matrix Reloaded too much Ergo, Vis a Vis