Round II: Superwooper VS Cardzmaster2004

[Cyrus]

Superwooper

Iron Chef Round 2 Challenge
vs Cardzmaster2004 (5)

Name: SuperWooper (1)
Date: September 28, 2005
Division: Freak
Ingredient: Electrode (HL #5)

Deck name: Thunder Turtle (HL-On format)

Pokemon: 22
4 Plusle (DX #44)
4 Voltorb (HL #80)
3 Electrode (HL #5)
1 Electrode ex (RG #107)
2 Pidgey (RG #73)
1 Pidgeotto (RG #45)
2 Pidgeot (RG #10)
2 Squirtle (RG #83)
1 Wartortle (RG #50)
2 Blastoise ex (RG #104)

Energy: 17
12 Water
5 Lightning

Trainers: 21
4 Rare Candy
4 Celio's Network
3 Copycat
3 Steven's Advice
2 Rocket's Admin
3 Mr. Stone's Project
2 Pokemon Retriever

Setup: You want to start with Plusle again in this situation. I had a rough time deciding whether or not to go with just LNS/Great Ball instead of Plusle, but I ended up choosing Plusle because a T2 Pidgeot is very important in a deck with 3 evolution lines. After 2 attacks from Plusle, you should have 2 Voltorb, a Pidgey and a Squirtle on your bench. Obviously, you want to evolve these into Electrode HL, Pidgeot and Blastoise ex, respectively. The Electrode ex shouldn't be used too early - it's for extreme situations, so keep it safe and out of harm's way for now.

Putting the deck into motion: Electrode HL's second attack instantly KOs itself and the opponent. However, it takes 3 colorless energy to use and none of them can be special energy. For you to consistantly blow up Electrode HLs, you need a source of energy attachment that will get you more than just you single energy per turn. This is where Blastoise ex comes into play. His power lets you attach water energy from your hand to Pokemon on the field in unlimited quantities, but at a cost: a damage counter per energy. However, since Electrode is just going to blow itself up, the damage it takes really isn't significant enough to merit spaces for healing cards. Pidgeot is there for searching capabilities, because every time you want to blow up another Electrode, remember that you will need five cards in your hand: Voltorb, Elecctrode, and 3 Basic energies.

Why this works: 2 Pokemon Retriever give you the potential to blow up Electrode HL FIVE TIMES, if necessary. Remember that in today's ex-centered metagame, 4-5 Electrode will probably get you your six prizes, but Blastoise ex is a decent attacker and can collect your fifth or sixth prize if necessary. Once you've got your Electrode up with 3 energy and you blow it up, you should put Pidgeot active. Your opponent attacks, and then the Voltorb on your bench, if you have one, should evolve into another Electrode. If not, search using Celio's Network for a Voltorb and Rare Candy straight into Electrode. Between Celio and Pidgeot, you should be able to get an Electrode off every two turns at maximum. Mr. Stone's Training Method gets 2 of the 3 energy you just burned with Electrode HL's Mass Destruction back, and Pidgeot can find a third, if necessary. Since Pidgeot has a free retreat, just go back to your newly powered Electrode and blow it up. Rinse and repeat until all your prizes are gone.

Odds 'n' Ends: The Electrode ex is a last-ditch attempt to get energy back on the field. If you can use Mass Destruction for the game and not lose all your prizes in some sort of bizarre board situation, Electrode ex can destroy itself and get 5 energy back onto the field (except exs). In addition, Electrode ex's attack, which does 30 plus 20 more damage for each energy on the field you discard, works well with Blastoise is your opponent's deck is weak to lightning. Rocket's Admin is especially cool in this deck since you're blowing up your own Pokemon on a regular basis. This will give them less cards to work with after a well-timed Admin. The Lightning energy are primarily for Voltorb's attack, Recharge, since it can power up your first Electrode more quickly if you end up starting with HL Electrode, but Electrode ex and Plusle also make use of them, so I bumped the count up. The Water energy are in short supply, it may seem, but Mr. Stone's Project in a multiple of 3 virtually lets you use the same 1 Water energy 6 times over. The drawing engine is pretty balanced. I was thinking about a lone PETM for Blastoise ex and Electrode ex, but decided against it because I would have to sacrafice a Celio for it, and getting out Pidgeot with Celio is more of a priority.

As for the deck name, Thunder Turtle, Electrode is a lightning type and Blastoise is a turtle. Plus, I think Thunder Turtle is the name of a McDonald's promo Yu-Gi-Oh card *bleh* that was lying around my house from when my younger brother got a happy meal, and it just kinda popped into my head. Electoise, Blastrode, H(2O)-Bomb were some of the other names I thought of, but I decided on this one. Enjoy. ;/

~Cardzmaster2004~

Teacher: Well class, welcome back to Creativity Middle School. I hope you all
had a nice extended Fall Break. Now let’s all get in our seats and get right
down to business. Does anyone remember what I assigned to be looked at over the
Break?

*Non-descript-Asian-girl-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity
raises her hand*

Teacher: Yes non-descript-Asian-girl-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity
Tachisimi Konaniswa?

Tachisimi: We were supposed to look at the cards the kids in the lower classes
are using in their current pokémon decks. Specifically,w e were to analyze
their overuse of the card Electrode HL.

Teacher: Good job, non-descript-Asian-girl-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity
Tachisimi Konaniswa. You get a gold star for today.

*Tachisimi beams with pride*

Teacher: Now, aren’t we all glad we’re in the advanced placement class for your
level, i.e. The Iron Chef Advanced Class. Doesn’t that make you all feel
special?!? (teacher beams)

*classmurmursundertheirbreath*

Teacher: OF COURSE YOU ARE! That’s why you’re here. Now, let’s a take a closer
look at the card. Does anyone want to do a short analysis of the first attack?

* non-descript-Hispanic-boy-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity
raises his hand*

Teacher: Yes non-descript-Hispanic-boy-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity
Eduardo Guadalupe Esperanzo Toteca Adalando Fernando de Goméz?

EGETEFG: Bueno, la cosa primera que nos ven es una que lo necesito…

Teacher: Eduardo, english…

EGETEFG: Sorry, teacher. Attack number…eh…on takes one…eh…EenergeE?
and…eh…takes…eh…30 points without…eh…

Teacher: Good job Eduardo! You got through the name of the attack without
saying “eh” more than five times. You get a gold star!

*EGETEFG beams but has no clue what the teacher just said*

Teacher: Now, to clarify what Eduardo said, and to expound on it, I’ll walk us
through the attack. Now, the attack is called “Swift” and costs on Lightning
energy as Eduardo was going to say. However, nothing can prevent this attack
from doing more or less than 30 damage. Now, this is a very solid attack, but
can someone see why this attack isn’t that good?

* non-descript-disbaled-girl-inserted-into-this-story-solely-for-the-purpose-of-diversity-in-the-back-of-the-classroom
raises her hand*

Teacher: Yes Marissa?

Marissa: Well, Mrs. Teacher Lady, the attack is on a bunch of other pokémon too,
so the attack isn’t that special.

Teacher: Good job Marissa! You get a gold star too. So, if this attack is so
non-descript, why should we use this card?

*Black-kid-in-back-of-classroom raises his hand*

Teacher: *grabs onto desk* OK, T-Bonez, I’m ready now. Hit me with your worst.

T-Bonez: Yo, teach, I ain’t be goin’ der now, word? I wuz jus’ gonna say that
Electrode’s gotta kick *** second attack, dawg.

Teacher: *relaxing* Wow. That wasn’t that bad at all T-B. And that comment was
actually really good. But you still used one curse word. Only a silver star
for you.

T-Bonez: What the ()&# )@#$& @#$&(%) you @(&$()! little @(&)(# @($) son of a
(&@**^$ !!!!!!!! *T-Bonez whips out his pocketknife*

*security officers lurking in the back of the classroom grab T-Bonez before he
takes two steps and drag him, kicking and screaming, into the back of the dark
closet from which they emerged*

Teacher: So glad I had them install that secret surveillance area back there.
Now then, let’s look at the card again. Electrode EX’s second attack is the
real purpose any deck would want to run it. For three basic energy, you get to
KO your opponent’s pokémon, no questions asked. But, in turn, you must KO
Electrode HL.

*stupid-steriotypical-blond-girl-in-the-second-row-who-chews-gum-while-twirling-her-hair
raises her hand*

Teacher: *sigh* What is it stupid-steriotypical-blond-girl Janet?

Janet: um, yeah, that’s just stupid. I mean, yeah, it gets a KO, but you have
to lose all that energy. And that’s just stupid, because, I dunno, its like,
yeah, stupid. All that nergy in your discard pile isn’t doing anything. So,
its just stupid. And I don’t like it.

Teacher: Oh contraire, Janet. Check out this highly original and deserving of
winning Iron Chef: Ago of Kabuto Round Two deck from Head Cardzmaster, 2004…
---------------------------------------

Pokemon:

4 Voltorb HL
3 Electrode HL
2 Zapdos EX (yeah, I know. Not very original. But keep reading.)

3 Numel EM (Collect)
3 Camperupt DX

2 Vulpix HL
2 Ninetales EX
1 Ninetales HL

Trainers:

4 Celio’s Network
3 Prof. Elm’s Training Method
4 Mary’s Request
2 Steven’s Advice

2 Desert Ruins
2 Fluffy Berry

3 Pokemon Reversal
3 Warp Point

Energy:

7 Lightning
6 Fire
2 Multi
2 Boost

In depth line by line anaysis:

Electrode HL: Line needed for the deck. Chose not to run Electrode EX b/c of
the enormous prize difference it would create to make up the lost ground. And
Electrode EX isn’t very original. The Voltorb chosen was chosen because he
allows a turn 2 Mass Destruction, which can really disrupt your opponent. Mass
Destruction is definitly the main focus, and Camperupt serves to power it back
up or, should need arise, power up the cleaner. Swift is another good attack,
but should only be used in very specific situations. The general rule is: If
its Evolved, Destruct it.

Camperupt DX: This takes the place of where you would normally see a couple of
Electrode EX. Camperupt’s first attack allows you to attach 2 basic E in the
discard pile to any of your pokémon in any way you like. Wanna power up another
Electrode HL? Go ahead. Wanna plan for some fire blasting with NinetEX? Go
ahead. The choice is up to you here. His second attack, while interesting, is
mostly useless in real-time game situations.

Ninetales EX: I hesitated on these last two cards the most. NinetEX is already
rising to popularity in many areas and may end up becoming a large part of many
decks. But this deck needed a secondary attacker and NinetEX fit the bill.
Requiring only one (R) for Fire Blast comes in handy, especially when you
started with an Ascended NinetEX and have only a boost in your hand and your
facing down the barrel of a Zapdos EX. Ascension Vulpix is used to accelerate
out Ninetales or NinetEX as the situation may deem it. Finally, a TecH
Ninetales HL is used to combat decks heavy laden with EX pokémon. While not the
greatest attacker, it can cause your opponent to spend valuable resources to
switch to plan B in the middle of plan A.

Zapdos EX: This one hurt the most. I hate ZapdEX decks. I think they’re carbon
copy and passé. But this deck NEEDS something easily splashed to combat
LudiCargo decks. With only two open slots and nowhere to make more room, I gave
in and added ZapdEX. Hopefully, you’ll only need one, but you should be bale to
find the other should the need occur.

The Supporters: 7 evolution-searching specific cards are needed to run the
amount of evolutions this deck needs. I would have run Jirachi (either), but
that, too, is commonplace and this competition calls for something above and
beyond the norms of today. Only 6 draw Supporters are present as you’ll be
searching for evolutions more than needing straight drawing. Theoretically,
once you have five energy somewhere on your side of the board, you should be
able to recycle them for the rest of the game.

Desert Ruins: Anti-EX TecH. This deck gets hurt vs. EX laden decks. Electrode
helps combat that as is, but the other cards could use a helping hand. Since
ZapdEX will be used so sparingly, I don’t see a problem with using this card.
The only EX you should be using a LOT would be NinetEX, and its below the 100 HP
mark. Very convenient.

Fluffy Berry: Part of a combo. See below.

Warp Point: Warp Point + Fluffy Berry = frickin’ broken. It gets rid of
status, helps you bring something up they don’t want to, and just generally
disrupts their strategy. It’s a nice combo and helps you run evolutions in and
out of the active spot.

Pokémon Reversal: Can be added to the above combo to be even more broken. In
essence: Warp Point + Fluffy Berry + Pokemon Reversal = Better than you in so
many ways…

Energy: The energy mix took me a while to figure out. Electrode needs enough
basic energy to get of his attack by turn 2 to disrupt the best. But he can’t
use special energy, like the Multi and (sadly) Boost included. The reasons for
their inclusion? Ninetales EX benefits greatly from a Boost out of nowhere, and
Multi helps out with ZapdEX and NinetEX. 2 of each is all that is needed as you
don’t want to load up on too many Multi as they’ll cancel each other out, and
NinetEX is the only one who needs Boost, and that’s only in very situational
events. So I think this balance is fine. I’d almost go with more Fire than
Lightning if it weren’t for the ZapdEX TecH.

There’s the deck for ya. Hope y’all enjoy ripping it apart!
--------------------------

Teacher: well, I think that just about outlines everything. Any more questions?

*per-usual-caucasion-male-in-next-to-back-row raises his hand*

Teacher: Yes Michael?

Michael: I don’t see why were can’t just go ahead and use Rayquaza EX and
Electrode EX and…

Teacher: GUARDS! GET THE BLASPHEMER!

*guards rush out from same closet and drag Michael in. The class turns around,
mortified. Teacher turns pale white*

Teacher: *sluring her speech* Well I think that’s enough for today. I’m going
to pick up my things off this desk and run out the door. If I’m here tomorrow,
we’ll be studying the evolution of the Pokémon Color Pie. Make sure to study
the chart on page 47. There’ll be a quiz on Wednesday! See you tomorrow!

*Teacher rushes out the door. The rest of the class is still staring at the
cabinet, mortified*

[Cyrus]

Because I typed out the reviews for this match TWICE, but my 'net died on me, I'm going to just post scores

Superwooper:

Deck: 7/10
Creativity: 3/5
Card Use: 4/5

OVERALL: 14/20

Cardzmaster2004:

Deck: 6/10
Creativity: 3/5
Card use: 3/5

OVERALL: 12/20

WINNER: SUPERWOOPER!!!

[Venusaur]

I like Cardz intro!

[Prime]

Superwooper's Deck: This will not start with Plusle that much. I can see that from here. 12 basics, 4 being plusle, 33.3% chance of starting with plusle, it could take a while to get setup, which is really bad. I honestly don't see the deck being able to pop out attackers, as your losing 3 water energy a turn and can only bring back 4 max, and only have 12 water energy. Stone helps, but come on, when your main attacker is discarding 3 energy everytime, or most of the time, and the best answer to that is a supporter that brings back 2, which you only run 2 of, your going to run out of energy. I think the high number of supporters is really the only thing I like.

Cardzmaster2004's deck: I definitely feel Camerupt's second attack is far from useless. For one more energy than Medicham, you can hit any two pokemon of your choice for 30. Of course, it might not be the best in this deck, but it definitely could be useful in some other decks like espeon ex, or decks that include devolution. I think using Camerupt for the only reason but to bring back 2 energy is not the best idea. There could be better pokemon that can bring back 2 energy that might be more useful. None come to mind, but again, I'm not looking for it either at the moment. You run fire energy, a good amount of it, yet no Moltres, and you run a good amount of electric, yet no Rayquaza. Sure, you want to be original, but when there are cards that work well with the deck, you should try it. I feel the change in confusion about retreating really just ruined Ninetails EX's first attack. For one energy you can GOW up anything and it might take 20, next turn, they retreat and hit you for damage. It's not that useful. Ninetails second attack is pretty nice, but I don't know if you want to discard more energy, especially when Electrode takes 3 basic energy with him everytime he explodes. Why 2 Desert Ruins? You can't search for them, and you won't be able to keep them out effectively with only two, but I see where your going with it. I just don't see it being consistant enough to even run in the deck. How do you get setup? If you start with Vulpix, you ascend, and then have an attacker, and have to draw into a bench and stuff. If you start with Voltorb, you can recharge and hope to draw into more basics and an electrode. If you start with Numel, you get to collect, which is like one of the worst attacks in the game IMHO. And theres not that many supporters to cover the hole a searcher-like pokemon like Pidgeot or Magcargo would take up. Decks don't get setup by themselves. If your not running Pidgeot or Magcargo, run more supporters. I would have ran Electrode EX, as unoriginal as it seems. IMHO, originality shouldn't mean more to the deck than the deck's composition. Make the best deck you can with the added ingredient. You might lose some points in originality, but you should get a better score in deck score. The deck just seems inconsistant, really inconsistant.


I think for ideas, both people come up with some somewhat creative ideas. But I feel to be a Iron Chef, you need to come up with creative ideas that work. My Gengar EX/ Blastoise EX/ Dusclops EX deck might be original, but it probably won't work well at all, and an Iron Chef wouldn't make a deck that wouldn't work to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.

Good job to both of you too.

[Prime]

Hmm, I can't edit my message. Correction, SuperWooper ran 3 Mr. Stone's Project.

[SuperWooper]

Originally Posted by Cardzmaster2004

Pokemon:

4 Voltorb HL
3 Electrode HL
2 Zapdos EX (yeah, I know. Not very original. But keep reading.)

3 Numel EM (Collect)
3 Camperupt DX

2 Vulpix HL
2 Ninetales EX
1 Ninetales HL

Trainers:

4 Celio’s Network
3 Prof. Elm’s Training Method
4 Mary’s Request
2 Steven’s Advice

2 Desert Ruins
2 Fluffy Berry

3 Pokemon Reversal
3 Warp Point

Energy:

7 Lightning
6 Fire
2 Multi
2 Boost

Well, I like the concept of Electrode HL/Camerupt. It's definitely more original than my deck, IMO. Blastoise/Electrode was circulated, granted only for a very short while, around the boards, but I've never seen a CamerupTrode deck before. Good job to you, sir. I felt you deserved 4/5 creativity points, but the judge's word is final. Nothing you or I can do. =(

I feel that you can do without the Ninetales line. Your reasoning below sounded a bit ill-founded to me.

Originally Posted by Cardzmaster2004

Ninetales EX: I hesitated on these last two cards the most. NinetEX is already
rising to popularity in many areas and may end up becoming a large part of many
decks. But this deck needed a secondary attacker and NinetEX fit the bill.
Requiring only one (R) for Fire Blast comes in handy, especially when you
started with an Ascended NinetEX and have only a boost in your hand and your
facing down the barrel of a Zapdos EX. Ascension Vulpix is used to accelerate
out Ninetales or NinetEX as the situation may deem it. Finally, a TecH
Ninetales HL is used to combat decks heavy laden with EX pokémon. While not the
greatest attacker, it can cause your opponent to spend valuable resources to
switch to plan B in the middle of plan A.

Your reason for hesitating is a good one. I think this is probably where you lost out to me in terms of deck construction. "NinetEX is already rising to popularity" doesn't matter in Iron Chef. What matters is that you make a deck that works. You really shouldn't TeCH anything, in my opinion, without a good solid reason that doesn't hinge on a metagame (An appropriate example of TeCHing in Iron Chef is using a water tech in a grass deck because grass is, in general, weak to fire.). Your defense may be that Ninetales ex wasn't TeCH, but this sentence "may end up becoming a large part of many decks" makes it seem otherwise. And since it can't be the main focus of the deck, either (that is supposed to be Electrode), it is, in my view, unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Cardzmaster2004

The Supporters: 7 evolution-searching specific cards are needed to run the
amount of evolutions this deck needs. I would have run Jirachi (either), but
that, too, is commonplace and this competition calls for something above and
beyond the norms of today. Only 6 draw Supporters are present as you’ll be
searching for evolutions more than needing straight drawing. Theoretically,
once you have five energy somewhere on your side of the board, you should be
able to recycle them for the rest of the game.

7 evolution searchers is overkill. You could have just been fine with 4 Celio's Network and nothing else since Ninetales ex was completely expendable and the deck would have run much smoother. Your line "this competition calls for something above and beyond the norms of today" does not apply to trainer engine construction unless the focus of your deck is supposed to be a trainer, in my opinion. Your originality points come from 95-100% Pokemon category. Trainers are included only in the Deck Construction and in relation to the Card Use section, but not originality, as far as I can tell. You need more than 6 drawing Supporters, as well. 8 is a rule I generally go by, but there are always exceptions. I do not believe that this is one of them.

Don't get me wrong, I loved your deck. But some of the finer points were a bit questionable in my opinion, which may have been the determining factor in our 2-point-decision. Congratulations on making the Top 32, though! Hopefully the next Iron Chef, Tournament of Champions, will feature a grinder and we will compete again. =)

Prime: I'll reply to your post later. ;_; *hands hurt from typing*

[Pablo]

IMO Superwooper's lack of Stadiums should have given him a 5 at most in Deck, when's he's running an ex that damages pokemons, Ruins is deadlier, and no sure way to get energy onto the field other than drawing them or mr stones (which is a waste of a supporter IMO) a single Frontier blocks his very important T2 Pidgeot, how could he recieve 7/10 when a single stadium puts him at a clock to win the game, or blocks his drawing line, feels a lil bit biased IMO.

[Cyrus]

Hmmm, it's nice to know that you guys are already posting :D

Prime: The odds aren't that bad. It was figured out a long time ago for Dunsparce, but your odds of starting with are more around 40-50%. Not amazing, and coulda used some swoopage.

Mudkip: That's a ridiculous statement for you to make, and I won't tolerate unfair accusations of the judging staff. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted my scores for this match and just voted, because my comments kept getting messed up by internet loss. But anyways, the reason that I didn't count off so much for the lack of gyms (thus lack to ruins/BF counter) is because he:

A- Functions without Pidgeot, but still wants it. If he is battle-frontiered lock, then all of those stones and draw keep the deck going.

B- Rain dancing to Stoise ex himself may or may not occur. Ruins clocking isn't going to be that big of a factor, especially since you can work it to your advantage (ie purposely let the stoise ex die, then admin).

Logically considering things, Not playing gyms hurts, but not as much as you think it to. For the record, I knocked 2.5 points off for the lack of countergym, and .5 off for lack of versatility and mass amount of stones. The fact of the matter is that for the one major misplay in his list, most everything else is going for it, and it's just a better list than Cardzmaster2004's in most every aspect, bar the misplay.

So PLEASE Pablo, keep your uninformed opinion to yourself, or address the issue with me first next time you have a complaint. Had I been biased, I would have let Blizzard and Brlee in late. Leave the personal attacks off of the board, thank you =/

[Pablo]

the 12 draw/supporters he has, only 3 are straight draw, copycat fetches between 4-8 on average, he wont be getting many energies there, and with a 2-1-2 line of pidgeot and a single trode ex, how does he NOT need Pidgeot?Ruins puts him in a huge disadvantage, think at this way, whenever he draws a prize, most of the time the opponent will draw a prize too, so he has exactly 6 turns to draw all 6 prizes before his stoise ex dies, he explodes trodes 5 turns in a row, even on prizes, what does he bring up after trode explodes? plusle? dies too easily, he has no way to choose WHO he actually ko's so the opponent can stallm and if he brings up stoise ex it dies even faster.

[Cyrus]

Your opinion's fine and good, Pablo. What I actually cared about in your post is that you accused me of being biased in a tournament where hardly anything other than bragging rights and a few goodies are up for grabs.