Judges who are Parents

SteveP · 04/19/2006, 01:53 AM

I sometimes hear players on the PokeGym complaining that it's wrong for Judges to rule on matches involving their kids. I'm not sure where this misconception originates from, but I'd like to put an end to it here.

When possible, I believe judges should avoid ruling in such matches, but often, that's just not possible. TOs and HJs have major responsibilities that shouldn't be dismissed in cases involving their kid.

For example, as HJ of the MtnW Regionals this year, I was removed from directly judging my kid's age group. Nevertheless, in a match involving my kid, his opponent appealed to the HJ, me. I could've done two things: 1) Shirked my duties and refused to rule, stating my kid was involved, thus making me incapable of making an unbiased ruling, or 2) Performed my duties and made the final ruling. I did the latter.

Obviously, if players feel my rulings involving my kid ARE biased, they'll report me to the PTO or POP, and I'll be removed if I'm guilty.

So, what do other TOs and HJs out there do? I suppose you might "buffer" yourself from directly dealing with your kid. But if the occasion arises, do any of you really "flat out" refuse to make a final ruling or judgement call when your kid is involved? I don't. Am I alone?

Burninating_Torchic · 04/19/2006, 03:08 AM

At all of our major tournaments, one of the judges has a kid in 11-14 and one in 10-. He's allowed to judge those age divisions, but not allowed to judge his own kids' matches.
Then again, if the head judge has kids in the tournament, and the head judge has final say on all rulings...tough call. I guess you'd just have to hope that a ruling doesn't have to go all the way to the head judge.

P_A · 04/19/2006, 03:11 AM

I hear ya Steve. I have had to rule on some of my son's games as head judge as well. I do the same thing. I try to distance myself from his games whereever possible, and let other judges handle it, but there are instances where I've had to make a ruling. As such, I don't shirk my responsibilities, but give a ruling as fair and unbiased as I can be. Over the years, I would have to state that I've ruled against my son almost as many times as I've ruled for him. Lately he's been boning up on things, and we tend to agree more often, but my rulings have still been as unbiased as I can make them without bending over backwards to please his opponents. Honest, fair and unbiased rulings are what sets good judges apart from the crowd, and will make all players more comfortable with the rulings regardless of whether they are for the judge's family, friends, or for anyone for that matter. Just keep up the good work, and you'll see them come around.

***EeveeLover*** · 04/19/2006, 06:37 AM

Steve as seeing how you handled that ruling at Mtn Reg, I would say your doing it right already.

You took no names, just player A and B. That was how you told all of us to approach you with HJ rulings requests.

I thought that worked great.

Robbgobb · 04/19/2006, 07:11 AM

I try not to judge my nephews' matches because I am harder on him. I have to try really hard to be objective and I think I normally do. The problem I have is I want him to play his best and I see the mistakes he makes. I do know that if I have to rule then I need to go with just thinking of the situation and not who is involved.

Prof Clay · 04/19/2006, 08:37 AM

It really is best to avoid making judgements with your kids involved...

RobbGobb..I am right there with you in judging my child tougher than I would other kids.

As I have informed my daughter...she does not get the slack other kids her age might get simply because of the level of competition she has already participated in so far in her Pokemon career.

At our State Championships she made a MAJOR mistake (shuffled her discard pile into her deck)..it wasn't intentional, but it is unfixable. In my mind I knew what the call should be, but I wanted to be sure of the call so I called Vince in St Louis to get his opinion. He said game loss, which is the call I knew to be the right one. So that is what happened...Bad Day at the Mitchell house

The call was made so I could have someone else above me (I was HJ) make the call so there would be no image of impropriety no matter what the call ended up being....

So all you judges with Cell Phones...if you nd up having to make a call with your child involved, get off that dangerous limb your on and call an impartial judge you know to have them make the call....it ends up safer for you in the eyes of your players and PUI.

Clay M

*Myn_donos* · 04/19/2006, 09:09 AM

i think Player A and Player B is the best way, jsut as steve was doing it already.

***PokePop*** · 04/19/2006, 09:35 AM

Poke_Dad: I take it that it was a best of 3 match?

Dark_Mewtwo · 04/19/2006, 09:41 AM

In my experience-- the reality is that judges' kids can actually suffer in a match question...cause the great judges I have worked with are superaware of not wanting to show favoritism. more often than not they will rule against their own kid just to be on the up and up.

of course I am much happier not having to judge my own kids' matches...

*mewsmom* · 04/19/2006, 09:46 AM

I always request to judge in an age group I have no family playing in. With large events I don't want to see my kids games and vice versa. My son plays better if he doesn't have the worries of a parent floating around.

There are times when you just can't avoid it- I then call another judge over or the HJ so they can over see the ruling & there would be no question of favoring one side.

Freddy K. · 04/19/2006, 09:56 AM

I could easily make a list of who would and who wouldn't give fair rulings on this side of the Atlantic when it comes to this issue. It's actually pretty well known who'll be fair and who won't especially in a small Poké-community. What can you do though? Keep the silence unfortunately and just believe in karma (especially when you know that these people are potential judges or head judges at events you'll want to play at in future).

~fK

arctic_frost · 04/19/2006, 10:05 AM

I agree with most of the people's views that have been put across so far - I think, that, just as principle, parent's should at all costs avoid judging their children's matches. I'd like to make it clear that I am in no way saying that I think that all parents would be biased if judging their kids - just that it would be so much easier if it was not a parent of either player judging. I was very recently a player in a tournament, and one of the games was judged by my opponents father. Again, I'd just like to say that I am not accusing the judge of bias. But so far, most if not all of the opinions presented in this thread have been from the judges point of view - I'd like to add the player's opinion to that. Although there was no bias in my game, when you are in a tournament situation with the pressure mounted up, it majorly puts you off when you know that there could be bias. Of course, there wasn't, but the thought keeps entering your mind, that there could be, and you feel the need to watch the judge as well as your opponent. My experience was at a regional championship, so there wasn't really any major prize at stake, but if there was I can only imagine what kind of feelings would be welling up in both players - feeling the pressure of a parent watching you, judging you, being expectant. On the other side, vague claustrophobia - feeling that you're being examined more than the other player, and not having enough breathing space. I will admit that, during the game, I wasn't happy with it being judged by my opponent's father. But what judges I think need to remember is to look at things from a player's point of view. Would you like to be judged by your parent, or by your opponents parent? And in the case of the latter, would you feel comfortable making a complaint there and then - to say, look, sorry, but I don't want you judging this match. Would you have the courage to do that?

So to conclude, I really think that it should be made a rule that, at all costs, to ensure that no judge should be judging family.

Frosty

meganium45 · 04/19/2006, 10:20 AM

Parents should stay away from their kids matches if at all possible. for their sake, for their kid's sake...for all concerned.

Judges should make the proper rulings...notwithstanding who they are judging for.

PUI will follow up on complaints made against judges for any reason whatsoever...they take our jobs, and their job seriously. (OK, this is from personal experience with the Seattle office)

Remember...just say no to judging your kid's match...if it is a toss-up call, let SOMEONE ELSE make it.

Vince

NoPoke · 04/19/2006, 11:07 AM

I have players in all three age groups.. so that precludes me from judging? Or automatically makes me biased?

I know what, next time a judge makes an erroneous call and the player appeals to me I shouldn't correct it because one of my family is involved??? You can't seriously be suggesting that you want incorrect rullings to stand? Yet by restricting the judge pool that is exactly what you will get. Or you could have the situation that has occured in the UK in the past where a group of students were hired to act as judges and given a one day course in how to play. You get lots of incorrect rullings that way.

But no accusations of bias. Just lots of accusations about poor judging instead.

Under the DCI the UK policy was to avoid having parents judge their family members games. Not because they might favour them but because in the DCI's experience parents were harder on their own family members.

The number of experienced judges in the UK is very small. The rewards for judging are often thin so many potential judges play instead. Bashing the judges wont increase their number.

I disagree with Vince in that I do not believe that the HJ can pass the buck and let someone else make the call. By all means discuss it but in the end the tough calls fall to the HJ. Vince may be fortunate in having a pool of experienced judges to call upon, anyone of which could be potential HJ material. I wish that were the case over here. I believe that the current number of judges that have voluntered for the UK Nationals is zero, I wonder if the students have been recruited yet?

FK if you believe that there are biased judges then you absolutely must report them to POP. Making vague accusations here only sours the atmosphere and makes recruiting potential judges harder.

arctic_frost · 04/19/2006, 11:41 AM

Nobody's accusing you of bias Ian, least of all me. I'm just saying that to avoid all these feelings from the players that I described in my earlier post, it would be easier if parents tried to not judge their children's match. Of course, if there is no way around it, then it must be done.

Take Bournemouth for example. BDW, can I just quickly make it clear that I'm not doing this to try and make a point about anybody, or the judging in the UK or whatever, purely using it as an example. I may be mistaken, but as far as I'm aware, there were three judges at Bournemouth - Russel, yourself, and Ben. During the final of 11-14, I believe that there were two games happening - one from the side event (possibly Sami and Ian E.). Two games and three judges, yet instead of Russ or Ben judging my match vs Nicholas, it was you. What I fail to see is why this was - I would be grateful if you would be able to enlighten me.

Also, I'd just like to say that I did feel those things that I said in my earlier post, about not feeling able to speak out freely to say that I felt like I had to watch you. I know that that now sounds harsh towards you, and suggest that I feel negatively towards you. That isn't the case, but that is how I felt it would've appeared had I spoken out at the event. Honestly speaking, I didn't enjoy the final match. Of course, it was partly due to the pressure, but I'm sorry to say it was also partially because it was you judging the game. Now, all these things, when said now, do sound offensive, but I think that they would've sounded ten times worse at the event. My view on this matter is simply to avoid placing players in these awkward situations.

Frosty

SteveP · 04/19/2006, 12:34 PM

Vince, I think we're "kind of" in agreement. I just disagree with a HJ or TO "passing the buck" to someone else, especially to someone who's not even at the tournament or a lesser judge at the tournament.

NoPoke brings up some great points.

A HJ has two major responsibilities. 1) Make a final ruling when appealled to, and 2) correct erroneous rulings when observed. Any HJ who shirks those duties just because their kid is involved are doing something unnessary and perhaps unwise, IMO. Likewise, a TO must run a tournament properly and make sure his "employees" perform their duties.

It's nice to hear the players' point of view on this. Players certainly may ask the HJ for another judge if they feel uncomfortable. Players can also ask the HJ to go observe another match for the same reason. In the case of a finals match, the HJ can go observe/judge the consolation match. Nevertheless, if appealed to, a HJ should NOT shun his duty to make a final ruling, under ANY circumstance.

Let me confess one thing I personally need to work on when acting as a HJ. I sometimes gravitate towards my kid's match to see how he's doing, not necessarily to perform my duties and observe random matches. In a sense, that's not entirely fair to the other players whose matches might not get as much attention from me. However, because HJs typically tend to gravitate towards the top tables, a place my kid normally plays at, I get caught in a paradox. So, in the future, I'll work hard at "randomly" observing matches.

Thanks for all the great replies!!!!

Additional point....

To many players, the initial deck check is a very vulnerable time. Scouters are everywhere. It would be a SERIOUS breach of confidentiality for any deck checker to discuss what decks are being registered with ANY player, especially their kid. I almost made a lesser, but similiar mistake at the MtnW Regionals when, after the 1st round, I almost talked to me kid about the decks I was observing. Instead, I caught myself and said, "There's some tough decks out there today."

Also, judges who "coach" their kid during round breaks or lunch break are seriously jeopardizing their impartiality. Talk to your kid about how they're doing, and stop there. No advice, other than to have fun.

arctic_frost · 04/19/2006, 12:48 PM

You also make good points, but the thing which I really do think needs to remembered by ALL judges is that it is hard for anyone who isn't in the 15+ group to speak up and say, "I don't want you judging my match". I think that judges should really be aware of this, and use their discretion when deciding who judges what - if a player appears to be in discomfort, sure, it might not be because of the judge, but it would be worth swapping judges if possible - just to be sure.

Frosty

Rocketman · 04/19/2006, 12:54 PM

The HJ cannot pass the buck. If you are a HJ, then hopefully you have shown enough fairness along the way to be trustworthy.
Clay, that was tough, but correct. I tell Y. Giovanni to make sure he plays clean, because he can expect no slack from me. After what I did to Brent, he has no doubt now. ( I gave him a game loss for coming back from lunch 15 minutes late. )
Nancy, you only have one division you can judge! :)
Freddy, you are in a tough situation, if you drop the dime, and that judge doesn't get disciplined, then you know you will never get a fair shake again. Good luck with that, lets hope it changes.
Steve, here's a thought.......without the parents to pay for the trips, buy the cards to make the decks, volunteer their time to run leagues and tournaments ( remember the wotc daze), buy packs, there would be no OP. If we don't judge and TO, then who?
I feel it's up to us to set the standard, and sometimes we have to make the tough call. I am proud to say everyone I know here in the US has kept the integrity of the game intact with their judging, kids or no kids. You will always have complainers, but the fact remains that it is the parents who by and large make OP what it is today.

SteveP · 04/19/2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arctic_frost

You also make good points, but the thing which I really do think needs to remembered by ALL judges is that it is hard for anyone who isn't in the 15+ group to speak up and say, "I don't want you judging my match". I think that judges should really be aware of this, and use their discretion when deciding who judges what - if a player appears to be in discomfort, sure, it might not be because of the judge, but it would be worth swapping judges if possible - just to be sure.

Good point. Younger kids are still intimidated by adults, something the older teens have long overcome. In those situations, a PARENT can certainly speakout in behalf of their kid. Parents can sense their child's discomfort MUCH easier than a non-parent.

arctic_frost · 04/19/2006, 01:18 PM

Ah, but what about the times when a parent isn't present? At the Bournemouth Regionals, my parents weren't there, and my "guardian" (Freddy) had been thrown out. All of the details and such are in my regionals report in the International section, but the point I'm trying to make is that judges need to learn to recognise these signs, as there are times when a parent/guardian is not around.

Frosty

Cyrus · 04/19/2006, 01:18 PM

The point's been brought up, but I still agree with those who feel that judges should avoid ruling over their children's matches. If that is not possible (such as the case of a head judge), then the lower judge can just come up to the HJ with the question, and no names.

meganium45 · 04/19/2006, 01:18 PM

Steve...a HJ needs to shy away from ruling on their kids matches.

As parents, we all gravitate towards our kids (except for my 10 year old who demands I stay away)

It is just human nature....

My policy is I do not want parents judging an issue with their kids matches, especially a close call.

Differs from Steve, differs from others...but makes me more comfortable in dealing with the events.

It is not "passing the buck" as I have truly experienced judges at every one of my events (yes I am lucky)

It is, in my frame of thinking the PROPER way of handling a match.

Do I oversee my judges...yes.

Do I have calls appealed to me...yes.

I think it is a bit egotistical to say that I am the only one on my staff who can get the call right. I put my judges in a position to make the right calls, I am there to back them up...and they get them right.

Vince

SteveP · 04/19/2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman

Steve, here's a thought.......without the parents to pay for the trips, buy the cards to make the decks, volunteer their time to run leagues and tournaments ( remember the wotc daze), buy packs, there would be no OP. If we don't judge and TO, then who?
I feel it's up to us to set the standard, and sometimes we have to make the tough call. I am proud to say everyone I know here in the US has kept the integrity of the game intact with their judging, kids or no kids. You will always have complainers, but the fact remains that it is the parents who by and large make OP what it is today.

Agreed. However, I doubt this argument would "stand well" with those who distrust parents who are judges.

Personally, I'd list MANY elements that make OP successful, in no particular priority:

- POP/PUI
- PTOs
- Parents/judges
- 15+
- The excellent design of the game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Vince, it's not only a matter of lower judges making the right ruling. It's a matter of a HJ making the FINAL ruling. You ARE "passing the buck" if you let someone else make the final ruling, especially a lower judge.

I suppose you can do something like the supreme courts do and choose NOT to rule because there's not enough evidence to overturn the lesser court's ruling. But you still need to listen to the basic tenants of the appeal.

It's good that you distance your judges from their kids. I expect most TOs do the same, when possible.

Many of us are just of the opinion that HJs and TOs CAN distance themselves from their kids, but CANNOT distance themselves from their responsibilities. When the two collide, responsibilities take precedence.

**SD PokeMom** · 04/19/2006, 01:37 PM

I guess I'd be asking just what 'those who distrust parents who are judges' have given back to the game themselves...i.e., are they professors? judges? league leaders?

Or are they just viewing the 'glass' as half-full, and making no attempts to help get it refilled?

'mom

SteveP · 04/19/2006, 02:15 PM

'mom, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some of those complainers are creditable, or are serious backers of the game. I'm a serious backer, yet I speak out when I view things differently.

I, for one, like to listen to the "other" point of view. When presented well, I've actually on occassion switched sides. For example, originally I was opposed to the blanket art-backed sleeves prohibition, mainly because of POP's unfounded "possible cheating" justification. Since then, I've been "converted" because another justification surfaced from POP, and more valid in my opinion. POP doesn't want to maintain an authorized sleeve list, or make TOs become "morality police."

So, if there ARE players out there you feel they've been unfairly treated by parent-judges, we NEED to hear from them. Bad parent-judges can ruin it for the rest of us. Nevertheless, I suspect those bad-apples are few, if any.

04/19/2006, 01:53 AM	#1
SteveP Images: 31	Judges who are Parents I sometimes hear players on the PokeGym complaining that it's wrong for Judges to rule on matches involving their kids. I'm not sure where this misconception originates from, but I'd like to put an end to it here. When possible, I believe judges should avoid ruling in such matches, but often, that's just not possible. TOs and HJs have major responsibilities that shouldn't be dismissed in cases involving their kid. For example, as HJ of the MtnW Regionals this year, I was removed from directly judging my kid's age group. Nevertheless, in a match involving my kid, his opponent appealed to the HJ, me. I could've done two things: 1) Shirked my duties and refused to rule, stating my kid was involved, thus making me incapable of making an unbiased ruling, or 2) Performed my duties and made the final ruling. I did the latter. Obviously, if players feel my rulings involving my kid ARE biased, they'll report me to the PTO or POP, and I'll be removed if I'm guilty. So, what do other TOs and HJs out there do? I suppose you might "buffer" yourself from directly dealing with your kid. But if the occasion arises, do any of you really "flat out" refuse to make a final ruling or judgement call when your kid is involved? I don't. Am I alone? __________________ Pre-Y2K Pokemon player, collector addict!

04/19/2006, 03:11 AM	#3
P_A Blog Entries: 5 Images: 321	I hear ya Steve. I have had to rule on some of my son's games as head judge as well. I do the same thing. I try to distance myself from his games whereever possible, and let other judges handle it, but there are instances where I've had to make a ruling. As such, I don't shirk my responsibilities, but give a ruling as fair and unbiased as I can be. Over the years, I would have to state that I've ruled against my son almost as many times as I've ruled for him. Lately he's been boning up on things, and we tend to agree more often, but my rulings have still been as unbiased as I can make them without bending over backwards to please his opponents. Honest, fair and unbiased rulings are what sets good judges apart from the crowd, and will make all players more comfortable with the rulings regardless of whether they are for the judge's family, friends, or for anyone for that matter. Just keep up the good work, and you'll see them come around. __________________ References / Buy, sell refs .... it's time. . New: Friend code 5343-8299-8341 Retirement means my opinions are my own, but feel free to disagree! I'm frequently wrong, and old enough to realize it. P_A is no longer a mod!

04/19/2006, 06:37 AM	#4
*EeveeLover* Member Services Administrator Professor Group Leader Blog Entries: 2 Images: 336	Steve as seeing how you handled that ruling at Mtn Reg, I would say your doing it right already. You took no names, just player A and B. That was how you told all of us to approach you with HJ rulings requests. I thought that worked great. __________________ Wayne Cunningham '08, '09, '10, '11, '12 (HJ) / '13 US Nats Judge '06, '08, '09 Worlds Staff / '10, '11, '12 Worlds Judge League Owner / League Leader / Tournament Organizer / Professor / Judge TRADES

04/19/2006, 09:35 AM	#8
*PokePop* Administrator Images: 1073	Poke_Dad: I take it that it was a best of 3 match? __________________ Rules Team Member / Member of Team Compendium - The Pokemon Rulings Compendium - Co-Owner of PokeGym.net Premiere Tournament Organizer Invited to Judge every US National Championship and World Championship Masters Head Judge TCG World Championship 2010 - Seniors Head Judge US Nationals 2009

04/19/2006, 09:46 AM	#10
mewsmom Images: 49	I always request to judge in an age group I have no family playing in. With large events I don't want to see my kids games and vice versa. My son plays better if he doesn't have the worries of a parent floating around. There are times when you just can't avoid it- I then call another judge over or the HJ so they can over see the ruling & there would be no question of favoring one side. __________________ Team Lynch Mob TX Region 07-? MS Region 04 -07 TX Region 01-04 FL Region 99-01

04/19/2006, 07:11 AM	#5
Robbgobb	I try not to judge my nephews' matches because I am harder on him. I have to try really hard to be objective and I think I normally do. The problem I have is I want him to play his best and I see the mistakes he makes. I do know that if I have to rule then I need to go with just thinking of the situation and not who is involved.

04/19/2006, 08:37 AM	#6
Prof Clay	It really is best to avoid making judgements with your kids involved... RobbGobb..I am right there with you in judging my child tougher than I would other kids. As I have informed my daughter...she does not get the slack other kids her age might get simply because of the level of competition she has already participated in so far in her Pokemon career. At our State Championships she made a MAJOR mistake (shuffled her discard pile into her deck)..it wasn't intentional, but it is unfixable. In my mind I knew what the call should be, but I wanted to be sure of the call so I called Vince in St Louis to get his opinion. He said game loss, which is the call I knew to be the right one. So that is what happened...Bad Day at the Mitchell house The call was made so I could have someone else above me (I was HJ) make the call so there would be no image of impropriety no matter what the call ended up being.... So all you judges with Cell Phones...if you nd up having to make a call with your child involved, get off that dangerous limb your on and call an impartial judge you know to have them make the call....it ends up safer for you in the eyes of your players and PUI. Clay M __________________ Head Judge St louis Regionals 2007-2011), Masters Head Judge Nats 2011, Masters Head Judge Grinder San Diego 2009, 2011, World's Judge 2008-2011...And Taylor Mitchell"s Dad--she's done pretty good at this game]

04/19/2006, 09:09 AM	#7
Myn_donos	i think Player A and Player B is the best way, jsut as steve was doing it already. __________________ "I've never seen a super nova blow up, but if it's anything like my old Chevy nova, it will light up the night sky!"

04/19/2006, 09:41 AM	#9
Dark_Mewtwo	In my experience-- the reality is that judges' kids can actually suffer in a match question...cause the great judges I have worked with are superaware of not wanting to show favoritism. more often than not they will rule against their own kid just to be on the up and up. of course I am much happier not having to judge my own kids' matches... __________________ proud pokepop of tati & tad *go team carolina* Pokemon Professor

04/19/2006, 10:05 AM	#12
arctic_frost Images: 1	I agree with most of the people's views that have been put across so far - I think, that, just as principle, parent's should at all costs avoid judging their children's matches. I'd like to make it clear that I am in no way saying that I think that all parents would be biased if judging their kids - just that it would be so much easier if it was not a parent of either player judging. I was very recently a player in a tournament, and one of the games was judged by my opponents father. Again, I'd just like to say that I am not accusing the judge of bias. But so far, most if not all of the opinions presented in this thread have been from the judges point of view - I'd like to add the player's opinion to that. Although there was no bias in my game, when you are in a tournament situation with the pressure mounted up, it majorly puts you off when you know that there could be bias. Of course, there wasn't, but the thought keeps entering your mind, that there could be, and you feel the need to watch the judge as well as your opponent. My experience was at a regional championship, so there wasn't really any major prize at stake, but if there was I can only imagine what kind of feelings would be welling up in both players - feeling the pressure of a parent watching you, judging you, being expectant. On the other side, vague claustrophobia - feeling that you're being examined more than the other player, and not having enough breathing space. I will admit that, during the game, I wasn't happy with it being judged by my opponent's father. But what judges I think need to remember is to look at things from a player's point of view. Would you like to be judged by your parent, or by your opponents parent? And in the case of the latter, would you feel comfortable making a complaint there and then - to say, look, sorry, but I don't want you judging this match. Would you have the courage to do that? So to conclude, I really think that it should be made a rule that, at all costs, to ensure that no judge should be judging family. Frosty

04/19/2006, 10:20 AM	#13
meganium45 Blog Entries: 3 Images: 283	Parents should stay away from their kids matches if at all possible. for their sake, for their kid's sake...for all concerned. Judges should make the proper rulings...notwithstanding who they are judging for. PUI will follow up on complaints made against judges for any reason whatsoever...they take our jobs, and their job seriously. (OK, this is from personal experience with the Seattle office) Remember...just say no to judging your kid's match...if it is a toss-up call, let SOMEONE ELSE make it. Vince __________________ PTO for the ST. LOUIS area! Founder - Piglet Draft! Owner of the Newest and Greatest Gaming Store (NOW OPEN) Yeti Gaming!!! yetigaming.com

04/19/2006, 11:07 AM	#14
NoPoke Images: 6	I have players in all three age groups.. so that precludes me from judging? Or automatically makes me biased? I know what, next time a judge makes an erroneous call and the player appeals to me I shouldn't correct it because one of my family is involved??? You can't seriously be suggesting that you want incorrect rullings to stand? Yet by restricting the judge pool that is exactly what you will get. Or you could have the situation that has occured in the UK in the past where a group of students were hired to act as judges and given a one day course in how to play. You get lots of incorrect rullings that way. But no accusations of bias. Just lots of accusations about poor judging instead. Under the DCI the UK policy was to avoid having parents judge their family members games. Not because they might favour them but because in the DCI's experience parents were harder on their own family members. The number of experienced judges in the UK is very small. The rewards for judging are often thin so many potential judges play instead. Bashing the judges wont increase their number. I disagree with Vince in that I do not believe that the HJ can pass the buck and let someone else make the call. By all means discuss it but in the end the tough calls fall to the HJ. Vince may be fortunate in having a pool of experienced judges to call upon, anyone of which could be potential HJ material. I wish that were the case over here. I believe that the current number of judges that have voluntered for the UK Nationals is zero, I wonder if the students have been recruited yet? FK if you believe that there are biased judges then you absolutely must report them to POP. Making vague accusations here only sours the atmosphere and makes recruiting potential judges harder. Last edited by NoPoke; 04/19/2006 at 11:13 AM.

04/19/2006, 11:41 AM	#15
arctic_frost Images: 1	Nobody's accusing you of bias Ian, least of all me. I'm just saying that to avoid all these feelings from the players that I described in my earlier post, it would be easier if parents tried to not judge their children's match. Of course, if there is no way around it, then it must be done. Take Bournemouth for example. BDW, can I just quickly make it clear that I'm not doing this to try and make a point about anybody, or the judging in the UK or whatever, purely using it as an example. I may be mistaken, but as far as I'm aware, there were three judges at Bournemouth - Russel, yourself, and Ben. During the final of 11-14, I believe that there were two games happening - one from the side event (possibly Sami and Ian E.). Two games and three judges, yet instead of Russ or Ben judging my match vs Nicholas, it was you. What I fail to see is why this was - I would be grateful if you would be able to enlighten me. Also, I'd just like to say that I did feel those things that I said in my earlier post, about not feeling able to speak out freely to say that I felt like I had to watch you. I know that that now sounds harsh towards you, and suggest that I feel negatively towards you. That isn't the case, but that is how I felt it would've appeared had I spoken out at the event. Honestly speaking, I didn't enjoy the final match. Of course, it was partly due to the pressure, but I'm sorry to say it was also partially because it was you judging the game. Now, all these things, when said now, do sound offensive, but I think that they would've sounded ten times worse at the event. My view on this matter is simply to avoid placing players in these awkward situations. Frosty

04/19/2006, 12:34 PM	#16
SteveP Images: 31	Vince, I think we're "kind of" in agreement. I just disagree with a HJ or TO "passing the buck" to someone else, especially to someone who's not even at the tournament or a lesser judge at the tournament. NoPoke brings up some great points. A HJ has two major responsibilities. 1) Make a final ruling when appealled to, and 2) correct erroneous rulings when observed. Any HJ who shirks those duties just because their kid is involved are doing something unnessary and perhaps unwise, IMO. Likewise, a TO must run a tournament properly and make sure his "employees" perform their duties. It's nice to hear the players' point of view on this. Players certainly may ask the HJ for another judge if they feel uncomfortable. Players can also ask the HJ to go observe another match for the same reason. In the case of a finals match, the HJ can go observe/judge the consolation match. Nevertheless, if appealed to, a HJ should NOT shun his duty to make a final ruling, under ANY circumstance. Let me confess one thing I personally need to work on when acting as a HJ. I sometimes gravitate towards my kid's match to see how he's doing, not necessarily to perform my duties and observe random matches. In a sense, that's not entirely fair to the other players whose matches might not get as much attention from me. However, because HJs typically tend to gravitate towards the top tables, a place my kid normally plays at, I get caught in a paradox. So, in the future, I'll work hard at "randomly" observing matches. Thanks for all the great replies!!!! Additional point.... To many players, the initial deck check is a very vulnerable time. Scouters are everywhere. It would be a SERIOUS breach of confidentiality for any deck checker to discuss what decks are being registered with ANY player, especially their kid. I almost made a lesser, but similiar mistake at the MtnW Regionals when, after the 1st round, I almost talked to me kid about the decks I was observing. Instead, I caught myself and said, "There's some tough decks out there today." Also, judges who "coach" their kid during round breaks or lunch break are seriously jeopardizing their impartiality. Talk to your kid about how they're doing, and stop there. No advice, other than to have fun. __________________ Pre-Y2K Pokemon player, collector addict! Last edited by SteveP; 04/19/2006 at 01:01 PM.

04/19/2006, 12:48 PM	#17
arctic_frost Images: 1	You also make good points, but the thing which I really do think needs to remembered by ALL judges is that it is hard for anyone who isn't in the 15+ group to speak up and say, "I don't want you judging my match". I think that judges should really be aware of this, and use their discretion when deciding who judges what - if a player appears to be in discomfort, sure, it might not be because of the judge, but it would be worth swapping judges if possible - just to be sure. Frosty

04/19/2006, 12:54 PM	#18
Rocketman Images: 11	The HJ cannot pass the buck. If you are a HJ, then hopefully you have shown enough fairness along the way to be trustworthy. Clay, that was tough, but correct. I tell Y. Giovanni to make sure he plays clean, because he can expect no slack from me. After what I did to Brent, he has no doubt now. ( I gave him a game loss for coming back from lunch 15 minutes late. ) Nancy, you only have one division you can judge! :) Freddy, you are in a tough situation, if you drop the dime, and that judge doesn't get disciplined, then you know you will never get a fair shake again. Good luck with that, lets hope it changes. Steve, here's a thought.......without the parents to pay for the trips, buy the cards to make the decks, volunteer their time to run leagues and tournaments ( remember the wotc daze), buy packs, there would be no OP. If we don't judge and TO, then who? I feel it's up to us to set the standard, and sometimes we have to make the tough call. I am proud to say everyone I know here in the US has kept the integrity of the game intact with their judging, kids or no kids. You will always have complainers, but the fact remains that it is the parents who by and large make OP what it is today. __________________ expect every flip to be tails and you'll never be dissappointed

04/19/2006, 01:18 PM	#20
arctic_frost Images: 1	Ah, but what about the times when a parent isn't present? At the Bournemouth Regionals, my parents weren't there, and my "guardian" (Freddy) had been thrown out. All of the details and such are in my regionals report in the International section, but the point I'm trying to make is that judges need to learn to recognise these signs, as there are times when a parent/guardian is not around. Frosty

04/19/2006, 01:18 PM	#21
Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus Images: 8	The point's been brought up, but I still agree with those who feel that judges should avoid ruling over their children's matches. If that is not possible (such as the case of a head judge), then the lower judge can just come up to the HJ with the question, and no names. __________________ Recent Tournament Placement: 1st place, 2003 Sandstorm Prerelease (UNDEFEATED) 18th place: Fall 2012 Tomball Battle Road (3-3) 23rd place: 2007 Oklahoma State Championship (2-3)

04/19/2006, 01:37 PM	#24
SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Blog Entries: 1 Images: 150	I guess I'd be asking just what 'those who distrust parents who are judges' have given back to the game themselves...i.e., are they professors? judges? league leaders? Or are they just viewing the 'glass' as half-full, and making no attempts to help get it refilled? 'mom __________________ SD area players: join the Play! Pokemon San Diego facebook group for local event info! League Leader, San Diego Games and Comics / PTO, San Diego CA My eyes being hindered by blind passions, I cannot perceive the light that grasps me; Yet the great compassion, without tiring, Illumines me always. Namuamidabutsu...

04/19/2006, 02:15 PM	#25
SteveP Images: 31	'mom, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some of those complainers are creditable, or are serious backers of the game. I'm a serious backer, yet I speak out when I view things differently. I, for one, like to listen to the "other" point of view. When presented well, I've actually on occassion switched sides. For example, originally I was opposed to the blanket art-backed sleeves prohibition, mainly because of POP's unfounded "possible cheating" justification. Since then, I've been "converted" because another justification surfaced from POP, and more valid in my opinion. POP doesn't want to maintain an authorized sleeve list, or make TOs become "morality police." So, if there ARE players out there you feel they've been unfairly treated by parent-judges, we NEED to hear from them. Bad parent-judges can ruin it for the rest of us. Nevertheless, I suspect those bad-apples are few, if any. __________________ Pre-Y2K Pokemon player, collector addict!

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