What is your opinion on donks?

[gashmoigidy]

I have heard billions of times how bad donks are for the game. But I actually disagree with that. I think they do require some skill. Think about this: there are 2 kinds of donks and here they are:

The Random Donk
This is a donk you didn't expect, but there it is. Like at cities, it was top 4. Beedrill/Cherrim vs. Machamp. Machamp has baltoy and nothing else. Beedrill has cherubi. Machamp goes first and ends. Beedrill rare candie's into cherrim, attaches a pluspower and salty-sweet pollens. And there's the win. The deck was in no way made to donk but it just happens. I actually don't like this kind of donk. You just get insanely perfectly lucky. No thinking whatsoever. A decent player can make that play without thinking twice.

The Procedure Donk
This is the donk you build your deck around (machamp, rampardos, kingdra etc.)You stream through your deck with pokedex and uxie and there it is! Your perfect rare candy + whatever! And that's the game. I actually think this kind is good for the game. It requires thought process, what should i grab with bebe's, should i drop the uxie now, what should i get with pokedex?

Though donk is generally a negative term, I think it's a fun more dynamic way to play. Who knows what could happen! A newbie could beat a great player! In Kevin Garnett's words,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dk7Il3EqI0

So what do you guys think?

[Bippa201]

I usually end up with a procedure donk, but completely accidental.

I use Speed Builds, but end up donking instead.

[Varna]

Originally Posted by gashmoigidy

I have heard billions of times how bad donks are for the game. But I actually disagree with that.

Well, you're about to hear it another billion times in this topic.

[Bippa201]

^Yep. So totally true

[elekid_957]

the only good donk is the random one. like when you get 4 heads with cherubi vs. baltoy. decks that are built around donking, it's not that fun to be donked. it's just like the end no more play, when it's something as epic as random rare candy 4 pluspowers it's just kinda fun for both people.

[Shen]

The random donk is dumb, it's so annoying when your opponent pulls a god hand and you don't even get a turn. Like last year at states, I saw this guy OHKO a Chikorita δ (40 HP, 2X Weakness) with Magmar just doing 20 damage T1 before the other guy even got a turn, and he had no bench. That's sorta bogus but avoidable if you just don't play cards like that... But then like at regionals, I played a G&G... My opponent went first, attached to a Ralts and attacked. I went, I didn't have a bench, but I did what I could and I could maybe turn things around with one more turn... But then he drops a Candy, DRE, and a Gallade, game over...

Those a terrible donks, I can't stand those. The other ones I at least see coming and it doesn't feel like a giant slap in the face. Procedure donks like Kingdra and other T2 cards I can deal with, they're sorta made that way however cheap they may be, but all in all I anticipate a sudden KO right from the beginning.

EDIT: There's also a sorta donk I just felt like sharing that doesn't really fall into either category... I'm playing at a cities last year, sit down to play a match and we get set up and everything. Anyways, I go first, draw and I don't even have any energy, so I pass.. He goes, he doesn't have a bench so I thought maybe I was in good shape, but then attaches and candies into a Dragonite EX, and passes. I'm pretty sure it's game over but I see how it goes... but then, what's worse, I notice I don't have my prizes out. Fortunately, I haven't searched my deck yet. So we called a judge and the judge said to set out my prizes from the bottom of my deck and I get a prize penalty. So my opponent draws a prize, then I draw for my turn. I play a TV Reporter, and I get a Candy, Gallade, and a Scramble... lol. I'm a prize behind, my opponent has no bench, so I candy Ralts to Gallade and Scramble it... flip over ALL my prizes for game, just to rub it in. One of the craziest experiences I've ever had, haha.

[Pachi]

they are awesome!!!!!!!!!

[Ariadosman]

Originally Posted by Shen

The random donk is dumb, it's so annoying when your opponent pulls a god hand and you don't even get a turn. Like last year at states, I saw this guy OHKO a Chikorita δ (40 HP, 2X Weakness) with Magmortar just doing 20 damage T1 before the other guy even got a turn, and he had no bench. That's sorta bogus but avoidable if you just don't play cards like that...

That's different though. When one of the most popular basics OHKO's yours for one energy and you still run it, you deserve it (note that he didn't need to evo to Mortar as Magmar MT does 20 anyway).

[Shen]

^ Oops, that's what I meant lol, Magmar. He couldn't evolve it any ways 'cuz he went first.

[ShadowGuard]

I don't like any kind of donks.

Random donk is luck-based, and it makes the player win who is more lucky with the starting hand, not the player who has the better deck or plays better.

Procedure donk isn't necessary luck, but I would never build a deck that's focused on donk. You can't even blame the players that they obviously don't want to have a real game, because if this is the way they win most, the may decide to play such a deck. You have to blame the metagame and the system that really has to be changed - donks got even more common thanks to Galactic now.

I go to a tournament to play a game, not to be finished after one minute. Therefor, I never played donk decks and I still did well. I have decks that can consistantly setup the full playfield including benched Lv.X by turn 2. But they can't knock out anything T1.

[NoPoke]

You go to a tournament to play pokemon - not to sit around for 55 minutes waiting for the next round because you only got to draw one card from your deck. Fortunately it doesn't happen to the same player every round. But it does happen every round to someone or someones.

As long as the game does not swing too much to first trainer turn victories we should be able to live with the donks. In the mean time I still hope that we will abandon single game matches in the swiss rounds except at the lowest K value and fun events like pre-releases.

a billion minus five to go?

[eriknance]

Originally Posted by gashmoigidy

Though donk is generally a negative term, I think it's a fun more dynamic way to play.

The early game donk means that you didn't really get a game in. It's not a "more dynamic way to play" because you didn't play.

I know a lot of people have shared their disgust with donks before. I'm no different. It's great when you donk another player, but horrible when it happens to you. Like NoPoke said, I go to a tournament to have dynamic, fun games that last (hopefully) over a minute. A game that lasts any less than like 3 minutes is not dynamic, and it certainly isn't fun.

To be fair though, there is the fact that players have to consider the possibility of the donk. Running shiny Duskulls for the extra 10 HP that protects against a first turn Sableye donk is a good idea. This is all just deckbuilding procedure, however.

[afstandopleren]

Originally Posted by eriknance

Like NoPoke said, I go to a tournament to have dynamic, fun games that last (hopefully) over a minute. A game that lasts any less than like 1 turn is not dynamic, and it certainly isn't fun.

I'm sorry but I felt that this should be fixed.

I go to tournaments with the idea of playing equal players in an equal format. However, Machamp and other cards that can KO stuff T1, makes the game unbalanced IMHO. First of all, there wasn't really a game to begin with, it ended T1. And I HATE to adjust my deck so I can 'survive' Donks. It's pretty bad for the player that got Donked as it's a bit unfair, not getting the chance to get started because your opponent happens to have a deck that lives for Donk and goes second while you have Great Ball, Roseanne's and stuff in your starting hand.

I don't mind Donks that are done by cards like Sableye SF because they usually are unintentional unlike some cards we know.

[DarthPika]

IMO building your entire deck JUST around a chance at a T1 win shows that you have no real skill.

[XxMarcTx]

Elm whataya doing home on a schoolday??

[Scipio]

See, there are random donks which are like "well, they happen", like when I had a T2 one with Delta Seadra against a Skitty. Those can't be banned from the game.
Its stuff like Macheap that makes donking annoying. Where last season around this time only Candy-Gallade-DRE was a viable T2 donk, or Riolu vs Holon Castform, or the odd Blissey-Boost one, this year almost everything can donk.
Therefore I'll be VERY glad if the game slows down a bit. You'll always have the odd donk left or right, that happens.
I just think there should be a rule - you cannot win until T3. Ofcourse, some people will find this preposterous but eh. Or allow the first player to play supporters. Right now, the player going first is at a huge disadvantage.
Shen - You're talking about States Made last year? Because I saw something eerily similiar happening there.

[evil psyduck]

I'll take all the donks i can get. Just read my sig.

[vegitalian]

One way to solve donks is to change the rule so that Pokemon can't do damage (or attack) on T1. This would give both players a chance to set up with trainers, etc. before anyone got donked.

[Sunscorch]

I've never really played against a deck that was built for donking, and I've never played that type of deck myself, so I can't comment to that, really.

Most of the time, though, as far as lucky donks go, I find them pretty amusing, whichever end of them I'm on
Maybe that's just the kind of person I am, though.

[vegitalian]

Originally Posted by Sunscorch

I've never really played against a deck that was built for donking, and I've never played that type of deck myself, so I can't comment to that, really.

Most of the time, though, as far as lucky donks go, I find them pretty amusing, whichever end of them I'm on
Maybe that's just the kind of person I am, though.

It's fun when you're playing at a league or some fun games with friends, but not nearly as fun when you've paid $1000+ to plan a trip to worlds and face a random or planned donk on the first turn.

[Sunscorch]

Originally Posted by vegitalian

It's fun when you're playing at a league or some fun games with friends, but not nearly as fun when you've paid $1000+ to plan a trip to worlds and face a random or planned donk on the first turn.

I guess it's a good thing I'm just not that good, then

[Pandemonium]

Donks are takeable, I'll give them that.

However, I'm on the train that says going second is totally, and utterly broken. Watching my opponent drop an Uxie, bring out a claydol, and play trainers and a supporter, and then cosmic power on their first turn makes my heart hurt a lot. Of course, if I'm the one doing it, my heart is full of joy.

In your example, if the playing going first could have played ONLY a supporter on his first turn, he could possibly roseanne's for 2 more basics to allow for play to continue out. Driving hours and hours to get donked in 2 minutes is lame. Especially if you have the cards in your hand to keep playing, but you just can't due to donkage.

[vegitalian]

Originally Posted by Sunscorch

I guess it's a good thing I'm just not that good, then

With that said I totally agree that random donks are hilarious in casual play...

[Scipio]

Originally Posted by evil psyduck

I'll take all the donks i can get. Just read my sig.

Yes, events are free.
3-hour journeys are not.
Cards are not
The fact that your whole tournament can be over within 2 minutes isn't exactly my idea of fun either.
And Dutch events aren't free either.

[prodigal_fanboy]

Originally Posted by afstandopleren

I'm sorry but I felt that this should be fixed.

I go to tournaments with the idea of playing equal players in an equal format. However, Machamp and other cards that can KO stuff T1, makes the game unbalanced IMHO. First of all, there wasn't really a game to begin with, it ended T1. And I HATE to adjust my deck so I can 'survive' Donks. It's pretty bad for the player that got Donked as it's a bit unfair, not getting the chance to get started because your opponent happens to have a deck that lives for Donk and goes second while you have Great Ball, Roseanne's and stuff in your starting hand.

I don't mind Donks that are done by cards like Sableye SF because they usually are unintentional unlike some cards we know.

Unbalanced my kiester. You can build your deck in such a fashion that you're not going to be left high and dry for your opponent's turn one attack to knock you out of the game, or switch to decks where that isn't liable to happen. You do run the statistical risk, of, even with outs, getting "donked". However, of the "donk" decks that exist, only Kingdra has really solid late-game. Solid =/= stellar. If you play with the endgame in mind, then you can beat donk decks given a solid enough build.

And random KOs happen. Frankly, I don't see anyone coming on these forums posting about how much they hate getting their entire deck set up by T2. But that's just as much a factor of the odds of the draw as getting your one basic knocked out by a deck that isn't designed to "donk".

Either man up and accept inherent risks or build yourself outs. Don't legislate away something just because it's inconvenient.