|
Author
|
Topic: Kage Ha! no Kaeri! -The Shadow Blade Returns!
|
Prime
Member
Member # 102940
|
posted July 19, 2003 07:27 AM
But why even wait to use the elm, with bill, you can keep your current hand and no have to worry about choosing between elm'ing or siting on your hand.
--------------------
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gengar094
Member
Member # 11307
|
posted July 19, 2003 07:34 AM
You don't have as much chance with a Bill.
--------------------
Fake Cards
Forum
Worms Armageddon Clan: SNU
From: Raamsdonksveer, Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
|
posted July 19, 2003 09:24 AM
Ok EVERY CARD has to have a drawback I mean if it said shuffle your hand in your deck and draw 7 4 would be in everydeck. But out of all the drawbacks elms is minor for what it does because I know I am at least gettting a fresh new 7 and then proceed to mise. No other card in mf can do that other then copycat but they opponent has to have a 7 card hand hence the inconsistancy.
Bill? PLEASE 2 Cards are rarely going to effect your hand unless you just played oracle.
Trust me Ive tried a LOT of wacky Draw engines for testing but it all comes back to though that elm copycat trader and fanclub is the best search and draw engine for MOST decks.
[ July 19, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: MonkeyMan8889 ]
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullados
Member
Member # 139064
|
posted July 19, 2003 12:42 PM
First, about draw engines. I confess to using some of the craziest draw engines that you can find (4 Secret Mission, 4 Blaine's Gamble in a G8r). However, Elm is the best card for most, if not all, decks. My G8r deck is essentially the 20-20-20 combo that was spoken about earlier, and I virtually never get a hand of more than maybe 1 dud card off an Elm. My Dark G8r is more of a 15-15-30, and I still only get maybe 2 dud cards off an elm. Same with my Exeggutor and UNL decks.
However, there are some decks where Elm just doesn't fit in. the old Invisible Stall (Alakazam/Mime), were it legal in Modified, would be such a deck, because it focuses on stalling as long as possible. The new Crobat/Noctowl is another one where Elm doesn't fit in because the deck is more focused on the opponent's hand. To be basic, unless your deck focuses on disrupting the opponent's playing style, Elm is needed.
Now, about the deck. I will respect your wishes not to use Elm and classic Cleffa in here. SMF (ScizorMukFurret) seems to be the most dominant form of Scizor available today, and I just want to expand on that a little...
Pokemon (18):
2 Scyther
2 Scizor (AQ)
3 Sentret
3 Furret
2 Grimer
2 Muk (LC)
3 Cleffa (Promo)
1 Suicune (N3, non-holo)
Trainers (27):
4 Copycat
4 Bill
4 Double Gust
3 Trader
3 Oracle
3 Gold Berry
2 Focus Band
2 Lucky Stadium (or any other Stadium other than Energy)
2 Town Volunteers
Energy (15)
4 Metal
4 Rainbow
2 Warp
3 Cyclone
3 Grass
The only two things in here that are ment to attack are Scizor and Cleffa. Muk is pure TecH for G8r and other Pokemon Power decks. NEVER use it if you aren't facing a deck that relies heavily on Pokemon Powers. It is ment to sit on the bench and look ugly. Furret is another bench sitter, this time getting you the necessary Metals and Rainbows for Scizor to use. I honored your request not to use Elm and Cleffa, so I went with my second option: Oracle, Bill, and Cleffa promo. Cleffa can be used at any time, but don't use the Bills too heavily without their Oracle support. I know that it gives 0 card advantage, but it gives you a tremendous strategic advantage, as you have the exact cards that you need. The 3 Grass energy in there are for when you have a Grimer only active, with the chance to do status effects, which can be deadly. Good luck, and have fun!!!
--------------------
"Always admit a fault frankly. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more"
-Mark Twain, notebook, 1902
Visit My Have/Want List
Current Stats:
Burndown Series (retired): (84-16)
HydroThunder (retired): (18-5)
Downriver/Return of the Beast: (179-49)
Desolation (retired): (33-10)
Dark NocLoc: (playtest)
From: Outside this world, inside my own mind | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 19, 2003 10:37 PM
Wow! Bullados, thats a GREAT deck! LOL, I actually thought of throwing in Muk in the deck's planning stages! Only one small error in your plan - Muk negates Furret's Power. Suicune too. Kinda makes them useless in this deck...
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
|
posted July 19, 2003 10:40 PM
No its just for the fact is in MF The Tier 1 decks are SMF, Feral, and Cargo. MOST games you just use resources for scizor furret and beat them down BUT vs things like feral or l draggy (both which REAM you) You can drop a muk and swing the game to your favor.
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullados
Member
Member # 139064
|
posted July 19, 2003 11:58 PM
Again, you will ONLY use Muk to counter a deck that relys on Pokemon Powers, such as Light Draggy, G8rsect, and Noccromancer. Otherwise, the Grimer should never hit the table. Good luck!!!
--------------------
"Always admit a fault frankly. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more"
-Mark Twain, notebook, 1902
Visit My Have/Want List
Current Stats:
Burndown Series (retired): (84-16)
HydroThunder (retired): (18-5)
Downriver/Return of the Beast: (179-49)
Desolation (retired): (33-10)
Dark NocLoc: (playtest)
From: Outside this world, inside my own mind | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 20, 2003 06:34 AM
Hey, I know everyone likes Tyrogue in a deck, and I got one yesterday, and plan on using it - so what should I take out?
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Articjedi
Member # 342
|
posted July 20, 2003 03:54 PM
You know, all of this elm arguing is getting away from the deck fixing.
--------------------
Thank you WOTC for a wonderful pokemon journey.
From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Otaku
Member # 42359
|
posted July 20, 2003 05:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gengar094:
Who said you have to use up your whole hand in the turn of the Elm. 4-5 cards are not useful on THAT turn, but might win you the game the NEXT turn. Forward planning anyone?
Because some cards become useless by the next turn, that's why. Most obviously, if I win on my next turn, nothing is useful. Now, some will say "Then I was losing anyway!" That may be true, but the point is, what if a single Trainer could have saved you or even won you the game? How could that happen? I have a non-free retreater on my bench and you DG it up, either to stall or be KO'd. Attach a Focus Band or Gold Berry or play a Healing Field, Breeder or Trader so you can evolve... there are many things that can radically shift the game in your favor. You don;t have to be losing already either: somtimes, it just takes a minor change: you are winning. The above scenarios could also be what costs you your lead and then eventually the game: your big bad Pokemon is slaughtering me, but I DG out something from your bench that if you had Trainer use, could have evolved, been protected, etc. Now, other than this, what else can make cards useless? You Elm for Breeder/Stage2, and I KO the basic on my turn without instantly winning. Or, and here is the best reason: Desret Shaman. RIght now, its mainly just for Noccromancer... but people like me, we like to experiment. Do you realize how often poeple Elm and Eeeeeek and COpycat for more cards thn they can use that turn (but no the next...). So it might prove to be useful.
When I get a chance, I will try and start a topic for this, or someone else can. THe reason it keeps coming up is that it makes a very real difference to the deck in question.
--------------------
Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
|
posted July 20, 2003 11:21 PM
So What are you saying? Play Shaman over ELM? =\
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prime
Member
Member # 102940
|
posted July 21, 2003 01:46 AM
IMO there are so many drawing cards now that you dont need to depend on elm to get your cards. Sure most are supporters and that is the big problem. You either shut your trainers down with elm or not play any more supporters for the rest of the turn. I usually play bill, copycat, desert shaman, and a few elm, like one or two. Some decks can take advantage of energy with juggler and the other one, I forgot.
And I mean, I am not trying to say that Elm is useless. I just think it isn't as staple as people thought it was. I used to play 4 elm in every deck. I don't now.
--------------------
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
|
posted July 21, 2003 02:23 AM
It is a staple then you use the supporters after that so for Noc Lock you got shaman, for Feraligatr you got juggler, for Cargo you got oraclebill, and for everything else its copycat.
Because really what better is there to play over elm? =/
[ July 21, 2003, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: MonkeyMan8889 ]
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy K
Member # 24380
|
posted July 21, 2003 02:43 AM
No-one's mentioned the fact that after 'x' Supporter you can still play Elm. You can't do this if you substitute it for another Supporter.
I'm with Monkey "and Co." here. Only certain decks are 'Juggler' decks or 'Shaman' decks. Across the board I've always had to return, after experimentation, to 4 Elm, 4 Cc, 4/3 Trader and 2 PFC.
Consistency wins games.
~fK
--------------------
AIM: TEFr3ddyK
Features writer, Pokémon World Magazine.
GENCON-EUROPE 2003
Professor Championship - 1st
TeamMP Championship - 1st w/(s_b)
Visit Team UK!
"how can two bright red fleece Professor jackets be lost in an office? Can they be stuffed in a drawer? Under a stapler? In-between a stack of folders? Or on top of a pot plant?"
From: Slough, England UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gengar094
Member
Member # 11307
|
posted July 21, 2003 09:21 AM
I usually go for 4 Elm, 4 Oracle, 4 Bill. It works!
--------------------
Fake Cards
Forum
Worms Armageddon Clan: SNU
From: Raamsdonksveer, Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 21, 2003 08:54 PM
Basically, everyone has their own style of draw power, and whatever works, works. Elm isn't necessary to win.
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
|
posted July 21, 2003 09:02 PM
ok but there is more to that. there is statistical fact how some cards are better then others not just "what works for you".
You dont need elm to win true. but it sure works a lot better thne promo cleffa or juggler =\
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 21, 2003 09:59 PM
In some cases, yes.
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Articjedi
Member # 342
|
posted July 22, 2003 12:19 AM
Correction, in most cases yes. Too many tournament winning decks use Elm, especially in competitive enviroments.
I'm going to have to admit the card advantage calculation isn't actually 6, but they are 7 new cards that you can use against your opponent. It isn't a supporter, and it gives you everything you need to turn a game around.
--------------------
Thank you WOTC for a wonderful pokemon journey.
From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Otaku
Member # 42359
|
posted July 22, 2003 07:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Articjedi:
Correction, in most cases yes. Too many tournament winning decks use Elm, especially in competitive enviroments.
I'm going to have to admit the card advantage calculation isn't actually 6, but they are 7 new cards that you can use against your opponent. It isn't a supporter, and it gives you everything you need to turn a game around.
If every deck in a tournament uses Elm, then Elm will be in the winning deck. That's just common sense. Then there is the matter of personal playing skill. One of the things that both helps and hurts Pokemon is that a player can be skilled in one area, but bad in another and still be "good". For example, you can have someone who is brilliant at deck building, but very hidebound and a poor player. Then you have the creative types who come up with what will eventually become an archetype or at least a recognized "deck", but their decks are often unrefined and they don't always win. Of course, we all know the people who can't build their own deck or come up with anything original, but you put a refined archetype in their hand and they will win the tournament without a doubt. There are many more combinations of this, and if you are wondering, I tend to be about average. If I stick with an archetype, I tend to win. If I don't, I tend to lose. I ahvehad many deck ideas that failed. Somtimes it just was never a feasible deck, othertimes it was my approach. Every now and then, I do come up with a new idea (at least locally). SPeaking of which, in my area, I was the one who decided Elm was slowing my decks down. Now, the best player/deck builder at our local BZ, who also happens to be the Poke-Prof in charge, agrees with me (I think I might be #3 or 4). The other good players are still coming off of a YGO-related hiatus, but are much less YGO inclined right now (hey, the store that holds BZ holds Yugi at the same time). My point? Using the tournament winning deck as a guide, even amonst several tournaments, may be a mistake unless you look at the complete environment. You wanna know the Unlimimted deck that was king for 4 of the last 5 tournaments in my area? TurboSnorlax. Why? I played it for fun. I am a decent player, and could beat a lot of other players with it. Some of the other good players copied this "gag deck", and it became th number one deck for a while. This last tournament, we all decided to do something different, so TurboSNorlax vanished just like that.
--------------------
Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
scizorulz87
Member
Member # 147058
|
posted July 23, 2003 09:59 PM
about the oracle/bill combo, y not just use mary? it leaves more space in your deck, and does the same thing. ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif)
--------------------
"Wielder of Wind's Power, place your hands upon this stone, and ye shall be bestowed with the power to see hidden truth's."
-Tablet Inscription
From: Rockford, Illinois "The Prairie State" (go Illini) | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 23, 2003 10:05 PM
yeah, but mary makes you lose two cards in your hand, wheras PromoCleffa/BIll and Oracle just make it larger.
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
|
posted July 24, 2003 10:42 AM
thanks UltraMew. Plz ppl, as much as I like the debate, lets get back to the deck.
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
