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Author
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Topic: "Purity" Magcargo/Entei Reinvented... Perfected?
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 19, 2002 11:22 PM
Okay anyone should know, Magcargo/Entei is a very powerful deck in modified format. But it is not without its flaws. I find its main flaws are inconsistant howls, resulting in a bad early game.
I took some very drastic measures to correct these flaws. And you can see that in the decklists a drastic change. Its very non mainstream, and it may seem obtuse to you for a while. But believe me, you'll have to try it to know how good it is.
4 Slugma (combustion)
4 Magcargo
4 Entei
4 Copycat
4 Elm
4 Trader
4 D Gust
4 Scoop
2 Capsule
26 Fire
First off, 26 energy. This is a HUGE difference. On average, I find the typical cargo/entei running about 20 fire.
Obviously 26 fire is superiour to 20 fire. Especially in this deck. How is it possible to compensate for the loss of 6 cards? I had to ditch the baby.
Thats right no more cleffa. If you use this deck, you KNOW when your using cleffa, your doing something wrong.
I had to compensate for the lack of bench fodder. So I decided to max out scoop up. This had several positive effects.
First off, entei's turn 1 are not a bad thing at all. Next entei's now become re-usable. Its also great with d gusts.
The next cut was an unfortunate one. And sometimes I wish I still was running my focus bands. They had to go though. It makes the howls more consistant, since there is less fodder for howl to destroy (bands, ect.)
IMO this decklis is solid.
Feel free to comment.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 20, 2002 06:57 AM
I am concerned about your total lack of babies. There may not be Slowking anymore, but a Cleffa still makes a great buffer and free-retreater. You'll also be hitting a lot of mulligans.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted December 20, 2002 07:48 AM
Interesting idea....
using copycat to take advantage of your opponents big hand that results from your own early mulligans.
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 20, 2002 11:35 AM
No Pokes got the idea.
The lack of babies is a welcome change for me. The fact of the matter is, when your using babies in this deck, like cleffa, your failing to howl.
So an eek costs me 1 whole turn, to hopfully perform a 2 turn combo NEXT turn.
Its counter productive.
what the deck needs, is to be able to do the combo as consistantly as possible turn 1.
Also with the 4 entei and 4 scoops, and massive amount of fire energy, you can re-use howl/lava flow at any point in the game. Where as with the typical cargo/entei, that combo grows weaker come lategame.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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ukpokemonpro
Member # 518
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posted December 20, 2002 11:44 AM
I like the simplicity here it does what it does and nothing else. I suppose the idea is to out speed Kingdra and any other water deck with a KO each turn so that it's Turn 7 max and Game over.
The late game advantage this gives should mean that unlike most Magcargo decks this one shouldn't have Sligh like problems late game.
Purity good name for a good deck ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ December 20, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: ukpokemonpro ]
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ukpokemonpro
"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"
"London Super Battlezone 2003"
quote the judge...
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
14,000 deck boxes yeah we'll take all of them .... what have I done!
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From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001
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Eltude
Member
Member # 86588
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posted December 20, 2002 03:52 PM
Nothing I like the idea a lot I gotta try it myself
[ December 20, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Eltude ]
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I dont care about being "original" Ill build and play the deck that I am comforable with. I dont need to play a rogue deck to show Im good. I win with skill.
From: The Underworld | Registered: Jun 2002
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 20, 2002 03:58 PM
Thanks for the replies. FreddyK made up the name of the deck.
I still with I had room for focus bands.. but they do take away from the overall theme.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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darkest raichu
Member
Member # 113987
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posted December 20, 2002 04:01 PM
-4 fire
+4 neo genisis cleffa
you need babeis
From: at my computer | Registered: Nov 2002
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 20, 2002 06:54 PM
What makes you say I need babies?
You see you've been programed to believe you NEED babies. Your so well programed, you assume everyone will adhere to your biased advice.
Well I've given several positive reason why this deck needs no babies. You have provided no such reasoning.
That is why I would never take your advice.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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Timmy Two Tone
Member # 106756
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posted December 20, 2002 09:31 PM
I made a similar deck after worlds, thogh not as few pokemon and recently added 3 Chikorita for he water resistance. Here is my deck:
4 Slugma
4 Magcargo
4 Entei
4 cleffa
2 Chikorita
18 pokemon
2 Trader
4 Elm
2 Scoop Up
1 Time Capsule
4 Double Gust
3 Focus Band
16 Trainers
26 Fire Energy
Originaly I was running 30 fire energy, but added the chikorita and Traders it is much better vs water now and still beats any non water deck butt. I like the idea of the mulligan and then the copycat in your deck though. I find 2 scoop ups fine because if I howl more than 4 times I usually deck myself.
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33 and love Pokemon
From: Sandy OR | Registered: Sep 2002
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Strike
Member # 201
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posted December 20, 2002 09:57 PM
Hmmm...takes something very innovative to get me to reply to stuff nowadays, but I'll give it a shot.
Really to make a good point out here, babies are not needed in every deck. Babies work in most decks, but when it comes to pushing and shoving for efficency and speed, you need to get rid of the lagging ends, which is what the babies do in this case. Babies here slow the deck down in long strides, but however that is when you use multiples(I'll get to the point later).
The problem with the deck here lies not in any lack of speed nor anything of that sort, it lacks better if any early game protection. Given the situation that you will howl, you'll be placing them on your slugma's no doubt, but that will leave them wide open for a good opening attack for their first turn (two if things go bad) and add to that the problem with no healing trainers at all in your deck, which is perfectly acceptable in this situation to throw the deck into speeds unexplored by most players.
But then where is it that we can get any kind of insurance that your pokemon will be protected for those first few crucial turns? The legendary body dogs. Sure, they may add up in screwing up trainer ratios and pokemon counts, but for what they can do in early protection is what every combo deck needs (note to less experienced players Eneti/Magcargo is a combo deck, a very fast combo deck). The Entei and suicunes here can provide adequate protection(not to mention the suicune can screw up your opponents early expectations if you open with it only).
Okay, so getting back to the baby problem. Babies in large amounts screw the deck up, but then what about 1 cleffa? There will be many situations where you'd want to throw your hand back if you get a crud hand to begin with and use as a last resort.
So to make this summarized for my own personal enjoyment:
-Legendary Body Dogs (2-3) as early opening insurance.
-Possibly 1 cleffa as a last ditch recovery effort.
Possible cuts for the deck to fit for that:
-1 entei(4 pokeon traders, so much card drawing, 1 little entei shouldn't be harm too much)
-1 Scoop up(Along with the entei, another scoop up would be fine here, 6 oppurtunities for using entei in one game should be more than enough, usually Entei would need to be used 2-3 times in one game tho the max should be 1 at most times)
-1 or 2 fire energies(looknig at here, 26 fire is a large amount and 24 if you take two away is still huge as well, considering most people play 21-23 right now, and most of the time they will get plenty of fire most of the time).
Hopefully this kind of advice helps, since I've been out of it for a while.
-Strike(still offically retired)
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From: San Diego, Ca, Usa | Registered: Feb 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted December 20, 2002 10:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 213374U:
You see you've been programed to believe you NEED babies. Your so well programed, you assume everyone will adhere to your biased advice.
Well I've given several positive reason why this deck needs no babies. You have provided no such reasoning.
That is why I would never take your advice.
Shouldn't get defensive if you ask for advice my friend. What people are trying to tell you here is that a *particular* baby - Cleffa - is a good thing for the card drawing ability. Your deck is really going to need it with such a low basic count. Let me bang on my HP 48GX calculator a minute... assume that you get a slugma, magcargo, entei, Elm, and 3 energy - man that would be an excellent hand - but the odds are pretty good that you will get a mulligan (like a 95% chance of 1 - 7 energy - your most likely hand would be 3 energy, 3 trainers, 1 Pokemon). So anyway you put down your prizes and for the sake of argument say half are energy. So you have 47 cards left in your deck of which 20 are energy. So you plop down the slugma, add an energy, then howl. You have a 95% chance of 1 to 5 energy to attach to your active. The actual odds are as follows:
exactly 1 = 23%, 2 = 36%, 3 = 26%, 4 = 8%, 5 = effectively 1%
So odds are you will get 1, 2 or 3 - most likely 2 energy from your howl. So assume the same numbers except that you took out 3 energy to put in 3 cleffas. The odds would now be 93% -only 2% less - chance to get that same 1 to 5 energy per howl. The breakdown is thus:
1 = 30%, 2 = 36%, 3 = 19%, 4 = 4%, 5 = < 1%
So your odds are you will still get about 2 energy per howl on average. The big change is you have a measly 7% less chance of getting 3.
Now lets look at your draw. with 8 basics your odds of getting 1 to 7 basics on the initial draw is 65% with the followibg breakdown:
1 = 42%, 2 = 19%, 3 = 4%, 4 thru 7 not worth mentioning. So the odds are you will get uno - 1 - basic. Pray it isn't entei. The odds are only 19% you will get a slugma and entei. Now add those three cleffas and your odds of getting 1 to 7 basics on your initial draw go up to 88% with the following breakdown:
1 = 40%, 2 = 27%, 3 = 9%, 4 = 2%, 5 thru 7 too small.
So you've increased your odds a lot of getting 2 Pokemon your first draw. With only 11 basic pokemon you're still chancing a mulligan. The old haymakers were famous for running 15 basics - the odds for that many basics is 89% with the odds 1 = 32%, 2 = 33%, 3 = 18%. So the odds favor 2 pokemon on the initial draw - almost double your odds using only 8 basics.
So I'd call adding a few "babies" good advice. It doesn't hurt your howl odds that much and greatly improves your odds of not getting a mulligan and getting the Pokemon you need.
Now, lest you think I dunno what I speak - I used to play a Blaine's Magmar deck - kinda like a built in howl. I ran 12 basics, 36 energy and 12 trainers:
4 Blaine's Magmar
4 Fossil Magmar
4 Rockets Moltres
4 Promo Moltres
4 Nightly garbage - put nrg back in the deck
3 Item Finder - reuse NGR's
3 Oak
2 Blaines - turbo the Magmar
36 energy
With that many energy Magmar could get a good attack, but I mulliganed something terrible most times - and I was running 12 basics!
[ December 20, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: ScythKing ]
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-=>* ScythKing *<=-
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There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eltude
Member
Member # 86588
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posted December 21, 2002 01:24 AM
I really like strikes ideas and after a wee but of playtesting its always great to have last resorts in your deck just in case =/
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I dont care about being "original" Ill build and play the deck that I am comforable with. I dont need to play a rogue deck to show Im good. I win with skill.
From: The Underworld | Registered: Jun 2002
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted December 21, 2002 07:03 AM
I was mussing if it would play even better with one LESS entei.
add another trainer... mail from bill perhaps
I know that removing an entei reduces your chances of howling but with more draw power and the reduced chance of getting entei as your starting poke it might just be worth it
.
I like the idea of turning the probable Muligans to your advantage. No lone baby to be 'rouged first turn! Yeah Bin those Babies!
I suppose the only other suggestion might be to trade some gold berries for focus bands.
I could risk saying that I like the novel nature of the deck but that is just asking for all the 'I thought of that First/ages ago' responses that are counter productive.
So *claps* from me.
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Meganium45
Member # 99835
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posted December 21, 2002 08:16 AM
Hey, lets continue to beat this dead horse.
This is the deck I dream of playing.
I am an advocate of the new e-wartortle, does 40 for 2 with a 1 retreat cost.
I run a deck with 15 basics, to make sure I have all of my options open.
I'll put it simply. I have played this deck, and other entei-cargo variants. The only thing that saves this deck from "Big Water" (Mantine, Wartortle, Dark Stoise, sorry, not Kingdra which only does 30 if it is working right) are focus bands, and the ability to take out whatever just hit it.
Water decks usually work in swarms. Kingdra, Dark Blastoise, Wartortle, Mantine, with the idea being to switch and use multiples to gain the mid-game advantage. All a water deck has to do is "hold out" for a few (3) turns, so that it can set up to knock out any threat on the boards.
Do NOT use Suicune in the entei deck. Total mean look bait. Do find a way to add a few focus bands. They are truly game savers.
See you on the boards, or hopefully at one of Pokedok or my tourneys!
Meganium 45
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From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002
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mercad
Member
Member # 22435
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posted December 21, 2002 11:10 AM
well for healing u must think, what card heals anything with damage, now cargo discards like whoa, when he kos some1 he usually has 0-1 energy so.... heres my deck
pokemon 14
4 slugma
4 cargo
4 enetei
2 cleffa (its cover, u need cover)
trainers 24
4 elm
3 trader
3 scoop up
4 copycat
4 focus
2 center
2 capsule
2 switch
energy 22
22 fire
i personally like E nintales, less damage, but more center friendly
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From: Rancho Cucamunga, California, United States | Registered: May 2001
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Oak
Member
Member # 84064
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posted December 21, 2002 11:31 AM
Purity you were a witness in Toronto earlier this year that Entei/Cargo is the deck that can survive in Unlimited and even in Slowking environment. I agree that babies are not required. My only problem will be decking myself out with series of howl/scoop/howl. I however don't have suggestions that will not involve removing energies.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2002
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 21, 2002 11:56 AM
Oh wow, some great relies. Thanks everone. I know the community hasn't been what it used to be, but I'm glad to see we can still have a cool discussion about a game we all love.
Strike, great great point. I'm glad you replied. BTW, I'm officially retired too ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I do feel the deck would benefit greatly from running a legendary. I'm glad you see my point on cleffa.
+2 suicune is the best advise yet.
How to add it... I dunno for sure. I'll definitly try -2 fire +2 suicune.
LEt me try to address everyone else really quick.
Suicune cant be mean looked thanks to scoop up.
And all that stat stuff is flawed. Sorry man I don thave time to get into it, Your basing your logic on made up numbers.
Later I may pick apart every number, and provide the correct one, but I dont have the time.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted December 21, 2002 01:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 213374U:
...And all that stat stuff is flawed. Sorry man I don thave time to get into it, Your basing your logic on made up numbers.
Later I may pick apart every number, and provide the correct one, but I dont have the time.
Nope - not made up - hard stats, which you really should take the time to get a "feel" for if you want to make successful decks. An excellent discussion on exactly this subject was had many moons ago (before your time going by your membership number) at http://boards.wizards.com/tcg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=76;t=003185
Statistics only predict - what they really say is that if you play enough hands, the numbers will add up the way that statistics predicts they will. There will always be oddball hands, but you can bet that the odds are going to fall on the majority most of the time. As a simple experiment shuffle your deck thoroughly and deal out a hand of 7. Do this many times in a row and track what you get. I always do this simple experiment before taking a new deck out for a spin - because that is how it will likely act during a game.
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-=>* ScythKing *<=-
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There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 21, 2002 03:13 PM
Alright, allow me to clear a thing or two up. I've played this game longer than you. I am most likely a better player in highly competitive environments.
That has nothing to do with this discussion.
Lets look at raw numbers then.
60 card deck, with 8 basics.
8/60= 7.5
So on average, every 7.5 cards will be a basic pokemon.
That means I will most likely give up 0-2 mulligans a game.
Copycat abuses mulligans, and actually makes my opponant mulliganing a positive thing.
Now looking at numbers can only get you so far in deck building. All they can truly determine is how consistant your deck SHOULD be. Numbers cant tell you how the deck plays out.
Numbers dont tell you how much scoop up makes a difference.
Numbers cant determine how many cards your going to get off a copycat.
I really dont have time to argue moot points such as these with you. Take my word for it, I'm a successful deckbuilder, and a successful player.
The deck looks different than anything you would ever build. I take that as a compliment.
It's new, and it is based on logic. If you cant see it, then by all means I'm not forcing you to try it. I still think you should build the deck, and play against other people, to see what the big deal is.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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IndigoMaster
Member # 752
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posted December 21, 2002 08:05 PM
hey man, so this is the "big" thing you and freddy have been talking about...
Man bomie...be kinder on scythking...he didn't mean any offense...he was only tring to help in the way he see best fit...not everyone understand the logic of your new name
Honestly dude...i dunno what to think of the deck, it seems like it works...its perfect in theory, but man...i've seen so much stuff thats so utterly perfect only to end up failing me in practice that i have to take a pessimistic standpoint to this.
I understand the reason for no cleffa, the abuse of copycat ect...its all simple...but i think its overdoing it. I mean, the deck is so totally on the offense that it is gonna get screwed by luck. Yea yea i know EVERYTHING gets screwed by luck sometimes...but this kind of approach is just setting yourself up for it.
Yea ok...enough of that...you know dude...its probably gonna work great for you...i wish you luck with it, and i don't mean to downplay your creation. It is truely different...and extremly origional...but personally i think it needs more of a stable standpoint...i don't know if cleffa is the answer...but suicune is good, i dunno dude, but it feels like it needs something...
later man, and good luck with it
From: Atlanta GA | Registered: Feb 2001
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 21, 2002 08:54 PM
I think the consistancy will be found with the extra legendarys.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted December 21, 2002 09:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 213374U:
Alright, allow me to clear a thing or two up. I've played this game longer than you. I am most likely a better player in highly competitive environments.
That has nothing to do with this discussion.
Lets look at raw numbers then.
60 card deck, with 8 basics.
8/60= 7.5
So on average, every 7.5 cards will be a basic pokemon.
That means I will most likely give up 0-2 mulligans a game.
Copycat abuses mulligans, and actually makes my opponant mulliganing a positive thing.
Now looking at numbers can only get you so far in deck building. All they can truly determine is how consistant your deck SHOULD be. Numbers cant tell you how the deck plays out.
Numbers dont tell you how much scoop up makes a difference.
Numbers cant determine how many cards your going to get off a copycat.
I really dont have time to argue moot points such as these with you. Take my word for it, I'm a successful deckbuilder, and a successful player.
The deck looks different than anything you would ever build. I take that as a compliment.
It's new, and it is based on logic. If you cant see it, then by all means I'm not forcing you to try it. I still think you should build the deck, and play against other people, to see what the big deal is.
You don't take constructive criticism very well do you? Your chosen handle speaks of a certain arrogance also. You're right - those comments were not only unecessary, but in fact you had absolutely no basis for making them as you don't know who I am, what decks I build, and how good a player I am. As far as new and different and something I would never build - Puh-leazze. What new ideas? You give yourself far too much credit for the simple observation of using a Copycat to take advantage of a mulligan. So what - you may get even with the other guy but hell you gave him an advantage to begin with! Low Pokemon count? Ever hear of Insanity? People have been trying to get by on the fewest Pokemon from day one.
I see you listened to Strike and considered adding a couple more basics - maybe the information was presented in a way that you found easier to accept or understand and didn't involve babies or math.
Anyway - a final bit of friendly advice: if you ask for people to look at your decks, reply with respect. The attitude I perceive here is that you really wanted pats on the back for what a good deck builder you are, or maybe even "fame" for coming up with a "new" deck - not constructive advice though. I know I'll think twice before commenting on any of your decks any more - why would I? You've already stated that you know more than anyone else... and quite frankly your attitude is what I would expect from someone who considers themselves 1337.
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-=>* ScythKing *<=-
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There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted December 21, 2002 09:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by IndigoMaster:
Man bomie...be kinder on scythking...he didn't mean any offense...he was only tring to help in the way he see best fit...not everyone understand the logic of your new name
C'mon Indy - which logic, which name? FreddyK called it purity because it attempts to distill cargo down to it's purest form. 213374U? Good grief - I hung around hackers and phreakers way back when - mis-appropriating 1337 is just about passe' nowadays.
But thanks for sticking up for me. I get flamed like that I start wondering what's their problem - y'know? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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213374U
Member
Member # 119546
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posted December 21, 2002 09:41 PM
I have fame and I have success. I choose to shy away from that past though. Start anew.
I love constructive criticism.
-4 fire
+4 babies
Is not costructive.
I didn't post this deck looking for a deck fix. The primary reason I posted it, was to show you all a new (in its own) deck. The secondary reason was to recieve some constructive criticism, and possibly improve the deck.
I took Strikes advice because it was sound, and he provided logic and reasoning behind it. Not because of the way he presents it.
I no longer want to argue with you. You said your part, and you feel justifed by your numbers. I dont believe your numbers have any impact on my deck.
The deck will be improved. Not by looking at statistical data, but by massive amounts of playtesting.
BTW
Statisticly speaking, Magcargo is an inferiour pokemon. He only deals 60 damage for 1 discarded, and has a pokemon power making him pichu bait. He also has a large retreat cost, that makes it impossible to viably retreat confused during a game.
Ninetails is in every way superiour, numericly speaking.
So go ahead and attemt to make a ninetails/entei deck. See how far you get with numbers.
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The world, as it is, is inheritedly meaningless.
Registered: Dec 2002
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