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Author Topic: The "MMF Problem" Solved?
Gymbo

Member # 30832



posted September 13, 2002 09:15 PM      Profile for Gymbo   Email Gymbo    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Okay, so I think I have it. This whole thing about all of the types being equal is pretty mind-boggling when it comes to deckbuilding. I pretty much see deck-building as an intricate process, every card, serving a purpose, and I take the time to make sure I have no wasted space. Anyways, this is how I see the types:

*~Main Types~*
-Water
-Fire
-Grass

*~Neutral Types~*
-Psychic
-Electric
-Fighting

*~Special Types~*
-Colorless
-Darkness
-Metal

Okay, now that you see what I see the breakdown of the colors are, let me explain to you how I see them work.

First up, the Main Types:

Water counters some Fighting* (Neutral Type) Fire (Main Type) and is countered by Grass (Main Type) and Electric (Neutral Type). Also with some of the new Grass Card E cards having resistance to Water, you must throw that into the mix. Grass counters Water (Main Type) and some Fighting (Neutral Type). Fire (Main Type) counters Grass as does Metal (Special Type). Fire counters Grass (Main Type) and Metal (Special Type) and is countered by Water (Main Type).

I call these three types the "Main Types" because they seem to be the most played one way or another. They also counter each other, and form a "Triangle" with some outside Special and Neutral Type interference, but not enough to have significant influence. Ex: Metal resists Grass, but is crushed by Fire.

Next up, the "Neutral Types"

Psychic counters some Grass (Main Type), some Fighting (Neutral Type), and Psychic (Neutral Type). Colorless (Special Type), Darkness (Special Type), and Psychic (Neutral Type) counter Psychic. Electric counters some Water (Main Type) and some Colorless (Special Type). Electric is countered by Fighting (Neutral Type) and to various types through Resistance. Ex: Piloswine. Fighting counters some Colorless (Special Type), some Darkness* (Special Type) and Electric (Neutral Type). Fighting is countered by Psychic (Neutral Type), Grass (Main Type), and Water (Main Type).
You can also factor various types having Resistance to Fighting Pokemon as well.

Okay so, with the "Neutral Types" you have more diverse weaknesses, usually weak to other members of the "Neutral Type" Group. Ex: Psychic countering Psychic and Fighting. Also "Special Types" have some influence in this area as well. Resistance becomes a bigger factor here compared to the "Main Types".

Finally, we have the "Special Types":

Colorless Pokemon have no advantage over any type, besides Psychic (Neutral Type) due to Resistance. They are countered by either Fighting (Neutral Type) or Electric (Neutral Type) Pokemon. (Psychic too if you count Genesis Lugia; Water too if you counter NH Ho-Oh). They also can be countered with Sprout Tower. Darkness Pokemon have weakness over the ghosts from Card E. They also resist Psychic (Neutral Type) Pokemon. They are weak to nothing. Metal Pokemon deal double damage to the Card E Jynx and resist Grass (Main Type) Pokemon. They are weak to Fire (Main Type) Pokemon.

Special Type Pokemon really have the most impact against Psychic Pokemon. With Colorless and Darkness Pokemon resisting them. Metal Pokemon do resist Grass. Darkness and Metal Pokemon tend to abuse either of their respective energy Types. Ex: 4-Metaled Steelix.

Well there's the types written out with their advantages/disadvantages. Here's a chart of the types in order of best to worst types IN MY OPINION based on what I've just written, according to MMF's standards.

MMF Types
1. Fire (Weak ONLY to Water)
2. Grass (Weak to Psychic and Fire, Metal resist)
3. Psychic (Weak to Psychic and Dark/Colorless resist)
4. Water (Weak to Electric and Grass and Grass resist)
5. Metal (Weak to Fire)
6. Darkness (Resists Psychic)
7. Electric (Weak to Fighting and various types resist)
8. Colorless (Weak to Fighting and Electric)
9. Fighting (Weak to Psychic, Grass, and Water, various Pokemon resist)

Anyways, all of this preludes to my deck...which is coming up now...

The Time is Now...
Modified Format˛

Pokemon: 19
4 Eevee (Prom...Oh...Discovery)
3 Espeon (Holo)
3 Cleffa
2 Murkrow
2 Grimer (LC)
2 Muk
1 Smeargle (Discovery)
1 Mew (Lily Pad)

Energy: 16
10 Psychic
4 Darkness
2 Rainbow

Trainers: 25
4 Professor Elm
4 Oak's Research
4 Focus Band
4 Double Gust
3 Pokemon Trader
3 Bill
2 Energy Stadium
1 Time Capsule

Now...what does my deck have to do with that long and drawn-out explanation of the types? Well...if you look at all of the types, there's only one type that has weakness not to another type, but to itself. Yes, that type is Psychic. And Espeon is the strongest Psychic Card (Besides Slowking which doesn't attack). The only thing that stops Psychic is other Psychic Pokemon, besides Colorless/Darkness Pokemon that resist me. Well, then next is, why Muk? Well...Muk is my Slowking counter. Next question...why not use Igglybuff and save room? Well, the new cards from the E set prompt Muk. Two of the most obvious are Tyranitar and Poliwrath. Muk counters both of these nicely. The deck is straightforward, what do you think?

Alternate decks could include:
*Espeon/Light Golduck: I've already posted this before, it's a solid and very powerful deck. This version should be used if Murkrow/Steelix/Colorless Pokemon are used a lot more.
*Espeon/Slowking: The Classic annoyance deck and counter to Kingdra via Slowking's Mind Games. I don't consider this a very viable deck compared to the other two due to the high percentage of Igglybuff/Muk being played.

~Gymbo~

*The new Golem line is weak to Water
*The new Houndour and Tyranitar are weak to Fighting

--------------------
=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=

*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
*Innovator of Expedition Feraligatr*
*Current Project: Skyridge Analysis*

DCI: 2032
AIM: XGymbo01X

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."

From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sea Crobat
Member
Member # 100598


posted September 14, 2002 04:29 AM      Profile for Sea Crobat      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Why did you list the energy and their weakness's and resetaince's.
Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
IPGeek21

Member # 184



posted September 14, 2002 10:17 AM      Profile for IPGeek21   Email IPGeek21    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
*sigh*

THIS IS AN AWESOME article. Thanks for SHARING it with us (boards have been CRAZY =/)

I likey I likey...I may ask for a mini favor...

--------------------
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ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it

From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted September 15, 2002 04:03 PM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Your deck looks okay, but I think it needs more ways of Dealing with Dark Types- its easy to satll with one thats energy less (and yes, that can cost you the game-it gives them time to try and get a DG). Promo Smearle is a thought (cost them their only way of powering up). My main comments are on your list though.

As you may remeber (I hope I hope I hope) that I did some underrated CotW in the single card section. Some were good. Some weren't. To make them better, I have been creating an official scoring rubric based upon various statistics. An intersting thing to note is how the colors break down. Currently, the best of catagory (which Color is one) breaks down to one highest which gets the highset score (1.0) and the wort (whci gets a 0.0). I have not fine tuned the system, so this is all I will present. The reason for the high and low points are that I had to make it possible for there to be best and worst scores. Anyhoo, here's how the current Modified breaks down before the Epedition set:

Fire and Water tie for best (1.0)
Dark/Metal come next (0.8)
Grass (0.6)
Fighting/Lightning/Psychic (0.4)
Colorless clocks in dead last (0.0)

Now for the why,and remeber, it's pre-Expedition. "Weakness exits" means there are Pokemon weak to it. "Resistance exists" refers to Pokemon with said type as a Weakness. "+" means its an advantage while "-" indicates its a disavantage. I did not rate what the Color itself was weak against, since the TCG does not follow the rules like the Gameboy game, as the types have a)been compacted, and (for the purpose of Weakness/Resitance) b)are limited to one. As demonstrated, TPC is kind of weird about handling Dual Types-some have traits of both while others just follow one type.

quote:
Colorless: +Nothing Resistant
-Nothing Weak
-Artifial Resistance (twice)

Dark: +Can use Darkness Energy at no penalty
+Nothing Resistant
-Nothing Weak
-Artificail Resistance exists

Fighting: +Weakness Exists
-Resistance Exists

Fire: +weakness exists
+nothing resistant

Grass: +Weakness Exists
-Weakness Exists

Lightning: +Weaknes Exists
-Resistance Exists

Metal: +Can use Metal Energy at no penalty
+Nothing Resistant
-Nothing Weak
-Artificail Resistance exists

Psychic: +Weakness Exists
-Resistance Exists

Water: +Weakness Exists
+Nothing Resistant

Like I said, that was based upon the pre-Expedition environment. I think it is still too soon to make any adjustments, since the above also takes into account a few abstract concepts, namely the commoness with which the above points exists. For example, Water still appears to be dominant in my area, managing to hold of Elerctic and Grass. Fire does well to since Grass is the third most abundant. Electric is held back by Fighting Weakness since Tyrougue is so common. Psychic is held back by all the resistance played and its weakness to itself (I always make sure I can attack with my Slowkings, even when its a supporter [Wink] )Fighting suffers a similar fate-Resistance abounds and its weak to Psychic (or one of the [B}better types[/B]. I also gave more credit for being able to utilize the Special energies freely. Colorless is just hosed: No strong archetypes I've seen and it has double Resistance to deal with: Sprout Tower and Unown N. Ick. Unown N may not be common, but Sprout Tower is often the "default Gym" when deck building. Whew!

Based on what I have seen so far in Expedition, I think that Water and Fire will remain tied: the actual Water Pokemon do tend to have several Weakness (and now a resistance) keeping them in line, but Fire is weak to Water, thus it balancing them. Dark and Metal will remain big, though often in a support role. Grass gets held down by Fire and Metal, both mainstream (Steelix/????) and rogue (my Scizor/Muk has tested well against Grass). Most Psychic holds itself down (as an active attacker). Espeon is sweet though, but the Krow... Electric suffers from Tyroguing, Woopers, and of course, the odd rogue Donophan deck. [Wink] Fighting has about as good of a chance as Psychic. Finally Colorless. Many are weak to common TecH: Tyrogue and Elekid (in my parts, at least). Finally, like I said, Sprout tower and the odd Unown N... [Frown]

These are obviously just my opinions, though.

--------------------
Imakuni Rules!

You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.

From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Drakeo

Member # 25453



posted September 16, 2002 04:13 AM      Profile for Drakeo   Email Drakeo    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ahh yes, Otaku's Scizor/Muk, gotta love it [Frown]
hehehe...Shuts down Venucenter in any form...

To deal with resistance problems +1 Tyrogue might be a good idea. Other than that it looks very good, although I'm not sure how popular high-energy pokemon are in expedition. In my experience Espeon has needed more energy than that but you've got much more with it than me so I'm not gonna doubt that you know what you're talking about. It could just be my bad luck [Wink]
*Runs off to make a grass deck which can take Otaku's Scizor/Muk down once and for all...*

--------------------
~Proud Pokémon Professor, 40/50~
"Green Light" 36-6(retired 9/1/02)(used for tourneys)
"Green Light: EXP" 3-0
Winner of Del Norte HS tournament Feb 6-7(with Green Light UNL)
ICQ: 52117247
"I take that back. Being seperated from the one you truly love is worse =("

From: Albuquerque, New Mexico | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged


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