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Author
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Topic: Match Play format at Worlds!!!!
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 10, 2002 02:25 AM
YES!!!! Thanks so much WOTC for making the upcoming Worlds a viable championship-format tournament!!!
For those of you who missed the top announcement by DMTM on Thursday's Chat, here's the scoop:
quote:
darkmt_mike says, "Some news for Worlds all play in the 11-14 and 10-tournament will be Match play. Best 2 of 3. You will have one hour to play all your matches."
I've been pushing (and praying) for Match play format for the Worlds for some time. Even though DMTM and others always dismissed it, I knew it wasn't totally forgotten.
We've been playing best of 3 here in Colorado Springs since I first started running Pokemon tourneys last year. For those of you who aren't sure how it works, here's a few points:
1. In the second and third games, the losers of the previous game ALWAYS gets to decide whether to go first. There's no coin flip to determine who goes first in the second and third games.
2. The tie-breakers now include:
#1. Opponent's match win percentage
#2. Your game win percentage
#3. Opponent's game win percentage
That means a 2-0 match is better than a 2-1 match. However, with this size tournament, we may never get to the second and third tie breakers.
3. The DCI UTR requires a minimum of 45 minutes to play a 3-game match, so, one-hour matches are above and beyond the minimum. IMO, that's an OUTSTANDING move by WOTC.
4. Stall/lock decks are now legitimate arch-types. However, be forewarned. A good player will almost always conceded a first or second game (if the concession won't loose him the match) to get out of a stall/lock game. The advantage here is that the conceding player will choose to go first on the next game and use all means possible to avoid the stall/lock setup by his opponent.
5. If you don't like draws (matches that end in 1-1 ties, no third game), you can do the following: If you won the first game and it appears very likely your opponent will win the second game, then concede the second game before the 4-5 minute mark to garaantee a third game. There's a 3-minute time limit to game setup, so if your opponent is trying to stall for a 1-1 draw, you can avoid it by conceded the 2nd game before the 3-minute time limit to force the start of the 3rd game. However, this point may become moot if WOTC over-rules the sudden death rule in the Pokemon Floor Rules and allows draws when time is called and the prize count is even.
Any way, I'd highly recommend you run a couple best-of-3 tournaments to practice some of these differences before you come to Worlds.
GREAT DECISION WOTC!!!!
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gymbo
Member # 30832
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posted June 10, 2002 04:26 AM
I'd have to agree. Something interesting, that I'm sure has been looked forward to by many people including myself. No more of this FTKing away your chance at a game. Plus if you have a bad hand and bad luck one game, and your opponent wins on luck (Like with Crobat flips), or if the game comes down to a flip, you are not TOTALLY out of it. Very interesting indeed...
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From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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IndigoMaster
Member # 752
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posted June 10, 2002 06:11 AM
amazing...this is awesome.
This brings a ton more complexity to the game, its great that its gonna be brought into play at worlds.
From: Atlanta GA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted June 10, 2002 07:45 AM
SteveP,
Thanks for the tips, however, we knew that already but I'm sure many other players who don't play with 3 games per match are not farmiliar with the rules and strategy to use, like Magic. Great advise.
Of course, if you do play up against a stall deck, just count their discard pile and ask how many cards they have in hand or have them count their deck. You might win because you can deck them out, depending on trainers they are using. Now, where is that nasty Poliswine/Murcrow deck that locked Tim at the ECSTS 2001. He couldn't attack and was Mean looked the next turn. Wait, now there is Scoop Up and still Double Gust to help.
Oh, BTW, WotC hasn't announced all the formats that must be played at Worlds. I remember DMTM saying on the chat that they will not be having two separate tournaments like the STS events. I have a feeling we are looking at a Modified format on Day 1 and then other formats like draft and seal on Day 2. Perhaps players with the most cumulative points at the end of playing in all of these events will be ranked and deteremine to be the winners of this Worlds event. Just a feeling. ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Tyranitar-666
Member # 87284
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posted June 10, 2002 08:50 AM
yes, this is a VERY good improvement. Any odds of this applying to the professor championship at origins as well? ( dear god the number of matches people have won against me by pure luck... )
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1st place at the Columbus QT and GC, as well as the Cleveland QT and Cincinatti QT.
2nd place at ECSTS 2001 day 1
7th place at ECSTS 2001 day 2
2nd place at CSC 2002 ( notice a trend? )
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From: NEO | Registered: Jun 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 10, 2002 09:29 AM
Well, this is an interesting development. This will reduce luck as a factor in the games (not that I'm totally against luck, mind you).
There's also another cool event at worlds that...oh, wait, I was told not to tell you that. Sorry! ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted June 10, 2002 12:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
There's also another cool event at worlds that...oh, wait, I was told not to tell you that. Sorry!
Then why even MENTION it, Yoshi? ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif) ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
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Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Magby Guru
Member
Member # 55228
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posted June 10, 2002 01:02 PM
well this is good and bad. Good si that I have always like the best 2 out of 3 because that si the format of all the pro tour magic tournaments and any other magic even which i like very much. HOWEVER one hour is NOT enough time and I CAN make games last for HOURS if I want to without it being stalling. I can just see this being whoever wins first wins it all, and wotc needs to say how much time each player gets inbetween each game in each round! I also see so many draws taking place where there is only enough time for 2 games, making wins SO MUCH MORE VALUABLE! meaning you have to play a FAST deck, which means SO MANY DECKS ARE OUT OF THE PICTURE NOW. Think about how tight half an hour was and STILL is now! This is going to be very tough seeing as how my experience from MAGIC shows that even most people playing magic use the full hour to complete a match or round. And magic games only last for 15-20 minutes and they only have a 2 MINUTE time for sideboarding and dont even use all of that time either!
Just a couple of things to consider before everyone goes off the hook about this, to me this is not enough time.
-MG
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"I have an idea! First we gather up
all of the Brooks and then we lock them
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AIM: brOoksy999
Most Tails Flipped In A Row: 39
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From: falls Curch VA | Registered: Dec 2001
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general surge
Member # 584
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posted June 10, 2002 03:21 PM
while best 2 out of 3 is an improvement i gotta agree with Eric. an hour isn't enough. this now forces 1 of 2 things to happen. either a player plays a speed deck aiming to win quick(entei/???) or the play insane stall(alakazam or venucenter). basicly the speed player now wants to win fast so they can actually get to the second and third games. whereas the stall player wants to push the first game for so long before they get a win that there isn't time for a second game. then the 1 win from the first game gives them a match win. either of these happening is very BAD for the environment.
my suggestion is add more time. make the matches maybe 1 hour 15 minutes or 1 hour 20 minutes. that would give about 25 minutes for each game. thats about what we have now. the 20 mintues for games under this is NOT enough.
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From: West Haven,Ct USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted June 10, 2002 03:43 PM
Don't bite my head off about this, but Match PLay is something they use with Magic. And frankly, the only words that will come out of my mouth will be...
IT'S ABOUT BORKIN' TIME!!! ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
FINALLY! Best 2 out of 3 has been something I've been wanting in Pokémon for a few years now! Thank GOD that Wizards finally pulled this off for Worlds! (^_^)
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From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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Nu Gundam
Member # 1779
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posted June 10, 2002 05:12 PM
Best 2 out of 3 huh? So when will Wizard be able to convince Media Factory to create sideboards for Pokemon? ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif) Oops, I think I mentioned the "S" word... *Runs off before an angry mob hunts me down*
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From: Anime Hell and Heaven aka Toronto, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001
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desertfox52
Member # 34007
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posted June 10, 2002 09:04 PM
The 1 hour time limit is definitely enough time. I have played in a few best of 3 tourneys, which had time limits of 45 minutes, which was almost always enough time to play all 3 games. Besides, if we make the rounds too long, the tournament wil take forever.
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From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted June 11, 2002 11:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Magby Guru:
well this is good and bad. Good si that I have always like the best 2 out of 3 because that si the format of all the pro tour magic tournaments and any other magic even which i like very much. HOWEVER one hour is NOT enough time and I CAN make games last for HOURS if I want to without it being stalling. I can just see this being whoever wins first wins it all, and wotc needs to say how much time each player gets inbetween each game in each round! I also see so many draws taking place where there is only enough time for 2 games, making wins SO MUCH MORE VALUABLE! meaning you have to play a FAST deck, which means SO MANY DECKS ARE OUT OF THE PICTURE NOW. Think about how tight half an hour was and STILL is now! This is going to be very tough seeing as how my experience from MAGIC shows that even most people playing magic use the full hour to complete a match or round. And magic games only last for 15-20 minutes and they only have a 2 MINUTE time for sideboarding and dont even use all of that time either!
Just a couple of things to consider before everyone goes off the hook about this, to me this is not enough time.
-MG
Yes, it is going to be very tough. Yes it is going to change some things some strategey and how you build decks.
It is enough time because it is the amount you are given. You obviously can't have more time. There is just not enough hours in the day for it. There are other Events and things that need to have enough time to take place. One hour will have to do.
It is more important to have match play at Worlds then it is to keep the "status quo" of deck building theory. Remember we actually want to have you think differently. Comfortable is boring.
So you have one hour. Make it work or fall by the wayside!
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 11, 2002 11:52 AM
Sorry Eric, I've got to agree with DesertFox. We usually run 45-50 minute, best-of-3 matches and generally speaking, most games get finished. Like in 1-game matches, some matches don't finish in the time limit. However, as I mentioned above, stall/lock games are now a viable GOOD option for players who prefer those kinds of decks. This was previously NOT a viable option.
Personally, I like the option of using stall/lock decks. When those kinds of decks are used, even 2 hours sometimes isn't enough to finish 2-3 games. I once saw a stall game last for one hour and there was still no end in sight.
We'll just have to see whether WOTC uses the Pokemon Floor Rules to allow prize-count victories when time is called. I'm assuming they will use them unless I hear otherwise.
One point I forgot to mention in my original post. The Pokemon Alternate Point Scoring is NOT used in 3-game matches (unless WOTC decides otherwise).
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Magby Guru
Member
Member # 55228
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posted June 11, 2002 12:25 PM
I love match games! dont get me wrong! I have been playing magic for 2 years and have played in over 4 MAJOR events using the MATCH game method and am MORE than comfortable with it and know how to use it to my ADVANTAGE. I am just making a GENERAl statement that the TIME is not enough for what is trying to be ACOMPLISHED. I do UNDERSTAND that this si the MAXIMUM amount of TIME that wotc can hold for the tournament as DMTM mentioned earlier.
STALL decks CANNOT work in this enviroment. ALAKZAM is DOUBLE GUST WEAK and is EASILY beaten, dont take my WORD for it though...I would be more than HAPPY to play one in the QUALIFYING rounds at worlds ! I like stall but it is NOT viable to be honest. Not to mention ALAKAZAM does not have any hitter such as the infamous CHANCEY! And if people even LOOK at steelix they are ASKING for trouble. SLOWKING is no stall at ALL! What good does putting your opponents TRAINERS back on top of his DECK do when your trying to stall them OUT?
This leaves us with one "STRATEGIC" decision to now make !
-MG
From: falls Curch VA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Golduck
Member # 523
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posted June 11, 2002 12:35 PM
In the final of the Amsterdam Professor Draft, we played best of 3. That was very good for me, because my first game was horrible - I didn't draw an Energy card for the six first turns. I won the next two games.
Magby Guru: Did you just discover the 'caps lock' button? You seem to be fascinated of it right now!
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From: Norway, in front of a Mac, designing the new TE homepage | Registered: Feb 2001
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Golduck
Member # 523
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posted June 11, 2002 12:46 PM
Btw, will the Wizards/Professor Challenge also have "Best of 3" Matches? I certainly hope so, because Unlimited/Standard has a lot of FTKOs (thanks to Plus Power and friends).
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From: Norway, in front of a Mac, designing the new TE homepage | Registered: Feb 2001
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Mr. Popo
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Member # 85457
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posted June 11, 2002 01:04 PM
Will Top 8 etc. be best 2 out of 3.
![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
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From: N.E.O. 20 Minutes from York | Registered: May 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 11, 2002 01:59 PM
Magby Guru, there are two types of stall. One, the classic deck-your-opponent deck. And two (my preferred method of stall), get ahead in prize count then stall your opponent's attacks.
I agree that a classic stall deck like Alakazam has significant counters. However, I've seen Haymaker/stall decks work very effectly by getting prizes quickly, then stalling.
Nevertheless, in this 3-game match format, I don't expect the best players to play classic stall. However, I very much expect to see some decks containing various elements of stall/lock.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted June 11, 2002 02:04 PM
Personally, I think most good players will not have an issue with best out of three games, even within one hour. The real issue is deciding how to stratergize under these rules. SteveP gave some excellent advise for all players.
The real problem is coming across a slow player (not stalling). They take their time in deciding which card to play, when to play it, etc. They might not even be new to the game and actually, I know one play who made it to the top 8 on a few occassions. Excellent player, just more cautious in their playing, which is time.
I think most players will complete a game within 30 minutes based on past events. This format is a bit slower (less drawing and searching power for decks). Therefore, some players may even take more time under this Neo-On Format.
Bottom Line: Most of the good players will win their first game. If they don't they will win their second game based on prizes, resulting in a tie match. And if the win their first game and tie in the second and unable to start the three game, the players record will be 1 - 0 - 1, giving them a win for that match.
Personally, I would like WotC explain to us how the scoring will work (e.g., 1 -2 -3 points) and how the tie-breaking system works under this situation since I am not familar with the Magic system.
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Magby Guru
Member
Member # 55228
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posted June 11, 2002 07:49 PM
I have to make something clear hear because i dont think i did a very good job of stating my point of view, lol (do i ever!).
I LOVE the fact that worlds will be 3 matches, It should definitely help to bring out the best player in the bunch by making it so there arent so many of those flip games or anythign like that! I have always loved the 3 game matches for touernaments.
I am really just trying to say that PERSONALY i dont think an hour is enough time, but I will take what i can get and i am grateful wizards is doing this! I am really just looking at because of this format what decks will be viable! And now that i see this format i can see that the 3 game matches Do impact the enviroment completely! But hey, I am always up for new things!
-MG
--------------------
"I have an idea! First we gather up
all of the Brooks and then we lock them
in a box with Sneasle."-DMTM and Big Daddy Snorlax
AIM: brOoksy999
Most Tails Flipped In A Row: 39
This is not a democracy, 'RESPECT MY AUTHORATAY!'- Cartman
'Eric will make out with a Gatr if wotc brings back promo evee OHOHO!'-Gustas
[tog.online - Your one-stop source for the Pokemon Trading Card Game.]
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From: falls Curch VA | Registered: Dec 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 12, 2002 01:20 AM
I remember MTM announcing in a Professor Email that Day 1 would be qualifying rounds, resulting in a cutoff for Day 2. If enough swiss rounds are played, the #1 tie-breaker (opponents' match win-percentage), should be sufficient. However, if only a few swiss rounds are played (i.e., 128 players, but less than 7 rounds), the #2 tie-breaker (player's game win-percentage) and #3 tie-breaker (opponents' game win-percentage) could become more important.
I remember the match play tie-breakers being a Professor exam question. I guess WOTC anticipated the introduction of match play at major Pokemon tournaments, so they put the tie-breaker question on the Prof exam.
Regarding slow play, like Pokidad stated, it's not the same as illegal stalling. Some consider my play to be slow. I'm certainly more cautious (and slow) when playing at major tournaments. Nevertheless, I don't see match play turning everyone into slow players. If you're slow in 1-game matches, you'll most likely be slow in 3-game matches. In LOTR, when I once played a slow player, the judge observed the game and awarded a time-extension. However, I don't expect that to happen at Worlds. It's just something players will have to deal with somehow. BTW, almost all slow players I know tend to speed up play when they get behind in prizes.
As some have eluded to, the most important thing that match play does is that is reduces the effect of the luck-factor (i.e., FTKO, bad draw). Good players have a chance to overcome something that has always been their greatest frustration, loosing to chance.
And finally, a good player learns his opponent's stategy and deck after playing a game. If he doesn't win the first game, he will be much better prepared to win the second and third games.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted June 12, 2002 10:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
quote:
Originally posted by Magby Guru:
well this is good and bad. Good si that I have always like the best 2 out of 3 because that si the format of all the pro tour magic tournaments and any other magic even which i like very much. HOWEVER one hour is NOT enough time ...
It is enough time because it is the amount you are given. ... One hour will have to do.
Just for clarification - is this 1 hour TOTAL for all 3[max] games per match or 1 hour for each of the 3[max] games per match? I've seen it mentioned sounding either way... ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif)
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 14, 2002 11:57 AM
ScythKing, the entire match (up to 3 games) will last one hour (unless the judge awards a time extension).
I'm curious about the adjudicated game wins that happen when time is called. If time is called and the game hasn't completed, who wins? In our local tournaments, the person with the fewest prizes wins. If the prizes are even, we extend play for up to five turns to either finish the game or for either play to go ahead in prizes. If neither of these things happen, the game is a draw. Occasionally, we've had 1-1-1 match draws.
So, how will WOTC address this question? What happens at Worlds when time is called and a game is still in progress?
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted June 14, 2002 12:10 PM
SteveP,
I would expect DCI to use the same criteria they use in Magic tournaments but not the extra five plays.
For example: 1 win, second game when time is called - equal prizes, game ends in a tie as we have been playing - Player with the 1-0-1 record gets 3 points assigned for winning the match. Same goes for a 2-0-0 record or a 2-1 record.
In your case, 1-1-1 (assume last game ends with players with eqaul prizes, no extra turns are taken when time is called) could be given 1 point.
As you explain above, the round records are used for breaking ties and cutting to top eight.
Isn't this fun? Something to learn every day
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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