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Author
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Topic: Why Nintendo will lose a lot of players now...
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted June 15, 2003 04:02 PM
i try to limit my trainer usage. no more than 25 for me in a deck. more switches means more trainers
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Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted June 15, 2003 06:34 PM
I remember one nice evening playing in the adult group of players at the Tropical Mega Battle (2002) and playing by some of the Japanese gaming rules (player who goes first does not draw a card during their first turn, just like Magic) and tournament play-off rules for Swiss play within Groups (can't wait until you guys see those, then you might really be upset). ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
I think we are seeing how the game might really be played in the coming months and how it was designed to be played by the maker of the game (TPC). Also from my understanding, each set of cards (series or blocks) are not mixed with other blocks (e.g., Neo was a block, Basic to Gym was a block, VHS was a block, etc.). These blocks were not meant to be mixed like we see here in the US and European formats.
So, I would sit tight and enjoy the ride and have fun learning how the game should be played. ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Dark and Vile
Member # 74653
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posted June 15, 2003 06:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PokePop:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark and Vile:
But this will essentially break the non-holo Suicune/Double Gust combo that is currently teched into so many decks.
I don't think so. Remember, the Double Gust doesn't count as a Retreat, and you can then still do your one retreat to bring up your main hitter.
I'm not talking about the Double Gust.
Typically, the Suicune isn't your active Pokemon at the beginning of your turn.
Assume a free retreater such as Cleffa is up at the beginning of your turn. (Not an unreasonable assumption.)
Right now, you would (a) retreat Cleffa and bring up Suicune, (b) play Double gust to bring up the next victim for your big hitter, and (c) retreat Suicune for that big hitter.
That is 2 retreats.
Under the new rules, if Suicune wasn't up front at the beginning of your turn, then you would have to use another mechanism (Switch or Warp Energy specifically) to get that Suicune off the Active position.
From: Melbourne, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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Brokenlizard
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Member # 138472
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posted June 15, 2003 07:01 PM
 OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG !
Heeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllp!!!!!
Nintendo ruined the only strategy I know how to play! I can't use that deck I copied! I might lose to a RANDOM!!!
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From: Pokénon Recovery Center | Registered: Apr 2003
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 15, 2003 07:07 PM
Look, none of us deny that this changes things. We simply assert that the change is not so significant that it undermines gameplay. I mean, yeah, I sometimes retreat twice in a turn, but you don't see me getting all bent out of shape about it.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Articjedi
Member # 342
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posted June 15, 2003 07:40 PM
I agree with yoshi, it doesn't affect gameplay, it's just more of an annoyance. If anything, it means that people will have to pick between using a legendary body pokemon to double gust or using switches.
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From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted June 15, 2003 08:25 PM
So we lose deck ideas. Big deal. Make new ones. Isn't that the point of this game? I mean how many people do you hear complaining that they can't play Chansey Stall today like they used to do back during the days of Jungle and Fossil??
Isn't every new set a rule change in of itself? Quit yer whinin'.
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From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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Taichi
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Member # 13564
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posted June 15, 2003 08:33 PM
quote:
i try to limit my trainer usage. no more than 25 for me in a deck. more switches means more trainers
Maybe that's what TPC was trying to do. It's now time to use less elms and copycats.
From: Toronto, Ont | Registered: Apr 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted June 15, 2003 08:43 PM
I saw the set of rules that were currently in effect in Japan--when they were posted a few months ago at this website.
My sense is that their purpose was to try to reduce the complex game strategies (and attending competitiveness) that exists in the American version of the game. (Only one retreat permitted per turn; Steel energy only protects Steel Pokemon; Dark energy only enhances Dark Pokemon or Pokemon with Dark in its name, etc.)
Quite frankly, the rules will not accomplish any of that. The rules simply present another challenge to game players.
If TPC wishes to reduce the competitiveness, they will have to come up with another plan: like everyone gets the same prize--or something like that.
Those of us who enjoy the competition will always find a way to work within the rules to play as well as we can.
IMHO, changes in rules pose interesting challenges. If TPC wishes to ruin the game, they'll have to do something more dramatic.
Just my opinion.
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From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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mysterioustrainer
Member # 1049
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posted June 15, 2003 09:17 PM
So far I am excited with the new rule changes, because it now gives more balence to the cards I see in Expedition through EX:R&S, and it is giving me tons of new deck ideas. I look forward to the new times with Nintendo. So three words: "Get over it."
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From: Wherever the adventure takes me! | Registered: Feb 2001
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WizPoG_Pop
Member # 113762
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posted June 15, 2003 09:24 PM
I'll say one thing, though...
For a new "base" set, this one has really crappy trainers compared to Base Set and Neo: Genesis!
The only draw power is a slightly more powerful Mail from Bill (Prof Birch) and a half/combo Bill/Pokedex (Pokenav).
Registered: Nov 2002
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Pidgeotto Trainer
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Member # 133447
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posted June 15, 2003 09:58 PM
C'mon, limiting retreats is going to ruin the game ![[Dubious]](../tcg/graemlins/dubious.gif)
The only real Game-Changing rule is 2 Active Pokemon. To me, this sounds like fun. When team play tournaments came out, the good cards were still good. But other cards became good as well (Triple-Poison Beedrill)
The other bigger change will be dropping the Neo block from modified and adding Ex: Ruby & Sapphire
Your gonna tell me that dropping the Neos for modified & 2 Active Pokemon is less of a change than 1 retreat?
BTW, they're probably doing this since it wouldn't make no sense to be able to retreat both of your actives in 1 turn. ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
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From: Seattle, WA (Home of the 2002 World Championship | Registered: Mar 2003
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BMGFPatriarch
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Member # 144302
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posted June 15, 2003 10:52 PM
This may come off harsh, but in my opinion,
anyone who quits over a ruling change can just quit. Fine by me. But will LOTS of people quit over that? I seriously doubt it. Only the ones that can't think of new ways to get by the ruling will quit. Don't fear change people: It only makes us stronger. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
[ June 15, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: BMGFPatriarch ]
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From: Texas! | Registered: Jun 2003
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WizPoG_Pop
Member # 113762
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posted June 16, 2003 05:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Pidgeotto Trainer:
C'mon, limiting retreats is going to ruin the game
The only real Game-Changing rule is 2 Active Pokemon. To me, this sounds like fun. When team play tournaments came out, the good cards were still good. But other cards became good as well (Triple-Poison Beedrill)
The other bigger change will be dropping the Neo block from modified and adding Ex: Ruby & Sapphire
Your gonna tell me that dropping the Neos for modified & 2 Active Pokemon is less of a change than 1 retreat?
BTW, they're probably doing this since it wouldn't make no sense to be able to retreat both of your actives in 1 turn.
Just to note, the 2-on-2 play is an alternate way to play and is in an appendix. Also, P-USA does not expect to support it for tournament play for the near future. 1-on-1 is still the standard.
Registered: Nov 2002
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Skywolf1
Member # 1448
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posted June 16, 2003 11:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by PojosamaWannabe:
You may only retreat once a turn.
According to the Pokemon Center, yes this is one of the new rulings. Some other new rulings include:
1. No more first card draws for the player who goes first. (I hope that makes sense).
2. Only Metal or Dark type Pokemon get the advantages of Metal or Dark Type energy cards. When attached to a Pokemon OTHER than Metal or Dark, these type of energies count as colorless.
3. Only one stadium card may be played per turn.
These are some interesting rulings, made to put more stategy in the game, and make the game a more challenging experience.
When asked, how the consensus has been to the new rulings, I was told that most like the new rulings, but some others do not, which is to be expected.
I am not about to quit over some new rulings changes. I think these changes bring much needed balance to the game, which is something, I think we can all agree on, that this game has needed for quite some time.
As far as sales of the new set go, the PC received a shipment of the cards in on Saturday, and sold-out that same day, so I think that this set will really begin to rekindle interest in this game, and attract many new players, which is always a good thing.
I, for one, am looking forward to the new changes, and I think everyone else should at least TRY to give them a chance to work, before passing judgment, and annouce there displeasure with the new rulings.
This has just added a new level to this game, which might just break the mold of this TCG being merely just for children, so those of you thinking of giving up on the game, I think you OWE it to yourself, to at least give the new rules a TRY first. You might be pleasently surprised.
Take Care,
Skywolf1
[ June 16, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Skywolf1 ]
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From: Las Vegas, Nevada USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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farbsman
Member # 53992
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posted June 16, 2003 11:39 AM
Anyone that was at the Pokemon Center this past weekend have a rulebook from the decks? Some scans of the rulebook so we can see the rules would be helpful in preparing the kids for the change.
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From: Northern Indiana | Registered: Dec 2001
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dkates
Member
Member # 113463
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posted June 16, 2003 11:55 AM
I, personally, won't quit because the rules change. I personally don't like the change in Darkness and Metal Energy cards, but I'll live -- after all, the only reason I don't like those changes is because I would never get the chance to try out the Unlimited-popular Metal Chansey strategy. Actually, I can think of another good reason to do the change to a single retreat. With this in place, cards can be created with Powers that activate when the Pokemon becomes an Active Pokemon. With multiple retreats, those same powers would be broken.
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From: Houston, TX | Registered: Nov 2002
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Arthas_Zero
Member
Member # 134971
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posted June 17, 2003 12:59 PM
Looks like my theory was correct after all. If you don't know/forgot what it was, my theory was that Nintendo is trying to make the card game very similar to the GB game. Think about it like this:
1. TCG Rule: You can only play ONE stadium card per turn
GB comparison: You go to all the towns ONE at a time to fulfill different things.
2. TCG Rule: You can only retreat ONCE per turn.
GB comparison: When you retreat ONE of your pokemon, your turn ends.
3. TCG Rule: When EX pokemon are KO'ed, you/your opponent gain 2 prizes.
GB comparison: Think of EX pokemon as the legendary pokemon. they both can make a big impact in the game (whether they get caught or KO'ed).
4. TCG Rule: You can only attatch Metal energy to Metal pokemon and Darkness energy to Dark/Dark-named pokemon.
GB comparison: Would it make sense to give Charizard the Iron Tail skill? I think not.
5. TCG Rule: Pokemon now have more than one weakness/resistance.
GB comparison: A lot of pokemon are weak to more than one type (like Golem weak to water and grass).
6. TCG Rule: Pokemon now have over 120 HP.
GB comparison: ever looked at the HP of a lv 100 pokemon recently?
As you can see from the examples above, I believe that Nintendo is trying to make the card game just like the GB game so that if you played the GB game, you would have an idea as to how to play the card game.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted June 17, 2003 03:17 PM
quote:
Nintendo is trying to make the card game very similar to the GB game
Very interesting analysis. Well, this will make some upset. Some may want to decide their casual play will abide by the "old" rules of multiple retreats and such. I know i'm considering that. That confusion rule is really angering. Lily Pad Mew just lost a good life. Well, if they try for 1 trainer a turn or something like that, that'll be enough to quit over. Changing the basic game mechanics is not something i think most will tolorate.
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 17, 2003 04:32 PM
I am growing to ![[Love]](../tcg/graemlins/love.gif) love this new ruling. When I first read it, like many of the new rulings, I was flabbergasted. Changing some of the fundamentalsof the game? That's unheard of? Why, it's like... all the other fundamentals that have changed.
We don't know if the end result will or won't improve the game, but I think it will be an improvement. The unlimited retreat always seemed odd to me. I always envisioned some kid at a darkened stadium, with everyone else asleep, yelling "Sycther, go! Wait... Sneasel, go... no, wait, Scyther you go out..." The TCG is supposed to represent a similar "reality" to that of the videogame's "reality". Now, powering up Pokemon never made much sense to me (I would have given a PP stat to each attach and had PP counters to mark off the attacks, but that does seem complicated ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif) ), but I can deal with it. Having unlimited retreats never made sense: in a comparable match the above could indeed happen (for the fantasy world that is Pokemon). Remember, the idea is you have to skilled Trainers barking orders to their Pokemon while frantically using items and Trainer Techniques to help their charges and trying to strategize and out think their opponent. Partially by regulation, partially by necessity, each player alternates attacks. The unlimited retreat seemed about as balanced and logical as unlimited Tools or attacks.
Remember, this (and other changes), may be to keep some current and newer cards in line.
So, while it may be different, it could be good.
Arthas_Zero: Why shouldnt they be similar? As I said, they represent the smae fantasy world, and since playing Pokemon in "real time" would be cumbersome for the GB games and incredibly complex for a TCG, the turn based method works best. The same reason that Pokemon's TCG and GB games are so similar is the same reason why DBZ's video games and TCG seem so different (to me at least) from the show: to do it the way the show does would be awkward to say the least, and what works for one (recent GB DBZ games that I know of are the TCG adaptaions and Legacy of Goku) aren't even feasible for the other... now, if I am in error about those, I confess, I am only faniliar from reading strategy guides for them. So if I blew it, tell me and I'll edit in a different example. now as for some of what Arthas_Zero said:
quote:
Looks like my theory was correct after all. If you don't know/forgot what it was, my theory was that Nintendo is trying to make the card game very similar to the GB game. Think about it like this:
1. TCG Rule: You can only play ONE stadium card per turn
GB comparison: You go to all the towns ONE at a time to fulfill different things.
Except most people In know skip around quite a bit... the game even requires it (at least in R/B/Y/G/S/C. How can one person be in two places at once, anyway? The reason the Stadium rule changed was probably so prevent potential abuse: I know I am one of those people who willl replay Healing Fields so I can get teh effect again. Far from a horrible abuse, but this frees the mechanic up to allow for more potent Stadiums in the future.
quote:
2. TCG Rule: You can only retreat ONCE per turn.
GB comparison: When you retreat ONE of your pokemon, your turn ends.
Like I said, thats becuase it makes little sense otherwise. As a game mechanic, the unlimited retreat was abused often. As a reflection of Pokemon's "reality", it would be ludecrous.
quote:
3. TCG Rule: When EX pokemon are KO'ed, you/your opponent gain 2 prizes.
GB comparison: Think of EX pokemon as the legendary pokemon. they both can make a big impact in the game (whether they get caught or KO'ed).
That just doens't make sense. If a "legendery" Pokemon ate up 2 Pokemon "slots" (meaning I could, for example, take for mundane Pokemon and one "legend" like Mewtwo into battle for the GB games).
quote:
4. TCG Rule: You can only attatch Metal energy to Metal pokemon and Darkness energy to Dark/Dark-named pokemon.
GB comparison: Would it make sense to give Charizard the Iron Tail skill? I think not.
In G/S/C, Charizard can learn an attack called "Iron Tail" from a TM, so that kinda hurts your theory. Again, I don't know about the newest games (I want to be surprised when I play them, so I am tryng to avoid to much exposure). I think the change was agai, simplification. Now they don't have to worry about some of the surprise uses for things like Metal. Metal Chansey was probably not intended. Thats why most attacks say "place damage counters". This creates more problems, since perhaps some mechanics that do straight damage might be preferred for certain Pokemon for some reason. Essentially, this opens up an old mechanic for use again.
quote:
5. TCG Rule: Pokemon now have more than one weakness/resistance.
GB comparison: A lot of pokemon are weak to more than one type (like Golem weak to water and grass).
True, but isn't it only used for Pokemon that exceed the 120 HP rule? Either way, they wree meant to origially, since a flying/fire type should definitely not like water or electricity (since it is in no way grounded).
quote:
6. TCG Rule: Pokemon now have over 120 HP.
GB comparison: ever looked at the HP of a lv 100 pokemon recently?
Remember, TCG HP represents a sort of average of GB HP, DEF, SDEF, and evasion scores. I think a slightly higher one would have been fine, but that's me.
quote:
As you can see from the examples above, I believe that Nintendo is trying to make the card game just like the GB game so that if you played the GB game, you would have an idea as to how to play the card game.
Basically, I think it is too, but I don't see some unifying changes as bad things, and some of your examples weren't correct. Revise your theory, and it will be very accurate indded.
[ June 17, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Otaku ]
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Tails
Member # 55643
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posted June 17, 2003 05:43 PM
My thoughts:
Wow. This will certainly be interesting. Only one retreat? Looks like I need to change my fun deck. Relying on Dodrio's "Retreat Aid" won't be plausible anymore.
It could be a hell of a lot worse. They could say that retreating ends your turn, to bring the cards completely in line with the GB/A games. After all, in the electronic forms, you don't get to attack with the 'Mon you pull out that turn, remember?
They also could have completely rewritten the rules. This doesn't seem that bad in that light.
Heh. I've been waiting for a major change... not just new mechanics, but a complete change. Looks like the wait's over, no?
BTW, anyone know where the rest of the changes are listed?
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From: Watsonville, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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