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Author
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Topic: SERIOUS SUGGESTION - possible banning on few cards due to modified NOT changing
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themcster
Member # 1207
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posted May 03, 2003 03:56 PM
Due to the announcement that modified will NOT be changing. I am serious about seeing what you guys think about having the following FEW cards banned, just to freshen and shake up the game a bit.
I would really appreciate to hear other players views on the below as well as what the MT's think and if any of these suggested bans can become a reality....
TYROGUE (neo 2)
Mainly so people will bother to play lightning decks again. Too easy to tech in a 60 hit tyrogue to counter any lightning out there. We do have another tyrogue now (aqua) so we won't miss the lil guy. Give lightning a chance!
FOCUS BAND (neo 1)
Too annoying. Just plain annoyingly unfair. Games have been COMPLETELY turned around by a single flip, and we have enough flips in this game. I play focus band too... but wouldn't mind seeing what happens when it is gone.
GOLD BERRY (neo 1)
Similar to above. This is a VERY strong healing card which is all too easy to activate on high HP pokes (which are everywhere). Maybe if this was gone we would see some more balanced healing cards and even a few new pokemon showing up? Auqa scizor loves this card as does a whole host of others.
I am also tempted to say POKEMON CENTER too, due to it seeming to be a rather powerful non-supporter that can be abused by quite a few pokemon...
What are your thoughts?
I reckon if these 3 (or 4) cards were to be banned, then we could see a bit more of a variety out there...
[ May 03, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: themcster ]
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Creator of the metal tyranitar deck. 7th September 2002.
Creator of the TMP dust devils deck. 7th September 2002.
From: horsham, west sussex. england | Registered: Feb 2001
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dkates
Member
Member # 113463
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posted May 03, 2003 04:37 PM
I disagree. True, these cards are powerful, but here's why I wouldn't ban them.
Tyrogue: Yes, it's attack is slightly overpowered, but the flip-to-attack makes it difficult to depend on, and any Pokemon with resistance to (F) is completely immune to the little guy.
Focus Band: Again, very powerful, but it does have some fatal flaws, such as Poison and Burn. For each one, even if the Focus Band works, the damage from Poison or Burn (in Burn's case, with the tails flip) will still knock out the Pokemon. Also, there are ways to remove Pokemon Tools from an opponent's Pokemon.
Gold Berry: This one is pretty easily countered, if you're clever. Just get 30 damage on the Gold Berry'd Pokemon, then finish them off with a single attack. Then, it's useless. Also, as I noted for Focus Band, you CAN remove your opponent's Pokemon Tools.
Pokemon Center: Yes, it's a non-supporter that's insanely powerful, but remember that it discards all Energy attached to the Pokemon it removes damage counters from. Stop your opponent from moving the Energy off their damaged Pokemon (i.e. stopping Powers) and it goes from wise investment to suicide move.
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Every time I think I can't say anything stupider, I prove myself wrong. Maybe I should just stop thinking.
From: Houston, TX | Registered: Nov 2002
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jesschow12
Member # 70624
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posted May 03, 2003 05:29 PM
well goldberr and focus band shouldnt be banned.
focus band need flipping
gold berry is easy to counter when you does 30 or less dmg without helping your opponent to use it
but this card should be banned!!!
that is tyrogue!
i havent been playing lightning deck and using colorless pokemon for 2 years because of tyrogue,it does 60 dmg just 1 head?
quote:
tyrogue needs flipping
yup it needs flipping but just 1 head all those weakness to fighting will die easily
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have list
From: singapore | Registered: Mar 2002
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dkates
Member
Member # 113463
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posted May 03, 2003 05:35 PM
As long as we're talking about bans, I've got a question. Would it be possible for Wizards to reprint the banned Slowking (i.e. as a Promo) but nerf it, i.e. by adding in the "Active Pokemon" condition that was on the Japanese version? If they did, players would have to play by that version, and Slowking's ban could be lifted. I would also ask the same question about Sneasel.
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Every time I think I can't say anything stupider, I prove myself wrong. Maybe I should just stop thinking.
From: Houston, TX | Registered: Nov 2002
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Raikou1234
Member
Member # 3003
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posted May 03, 2003 06:09 PM
why not ban cleffa then, and pichu, and Elm, and Copycat, and every card halfway decent?
Those are only halfway decent cards...
Ban those if you want to before those....
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From: Somewhere | Registered: Mar 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted May 03, 2003 06:11 PM
Tyrogue?
25% chance of knocking out a baby.
FAR from broken.
*new or fuzzy math or somethin'?
CLEFFA banned? Cool.
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Orange Soda
Member
Member # 19838
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posted May 03, 2003 06:19 PM
There is one particular card that gets played in many, many, many decks. This card has made winners out of decks that would have crashed and burned without it. This card has been used in decks that could have been alright without it, helping them achieve victory. This card is truly dangerous. Therefore...
WE MUST BAN WATER ENERGY!
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I'm crushed. The fans are crushed. Orange Soda is Crushed Orange Soda!~Gengar
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From: University of Missouri-Rolla | Registered: May 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted May 03, 2003 06:27 PM
I personally believe that we should only ban cards which have a significant negative effect on the game by either totally dominating (Genesis Sneasel in a modified environment; Team Rocket Meowth in Teamplay), creates too many errors (Genesis Slowking), or introduces too much randomness (Discovery Tyrogue).
Tyrogue is responsible for too many 1st turn knock outs. I was looking forward to it being phased out.
Not of the other cards mentioned create problems--in my opinion.
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
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From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted May 03, 2003 06:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by IPGeek21:
CLEFFA banned? Cool.
That would really shake up the metagame with new Trainers and Pokemon. But I dont see much of a change without the Eeeeeking machine. Cleffa is just card drawing. There's nothing wrong with it. Cleffa is simply a staple in decks that helps get them going faster. No reason to ban it. I mean it only takes up two to three spots in a Modified Deck.
Honestly folks, the only thing that could ever be considered broken about it would be:
-It is in every deck
-Splashable
-It caused one problem (Baby VS Baby)
-Free Retreat
Now look at the other cards that were banned from Modified. Slowking was splashable, disrupted the opponent (which causes more problems on both sides of the table), it was reworded from the Japanese version, it had alot of rulings on it, and forced people to tech against it (Iggly, Muk, Cleffa, Pichu). Sneasel was splashable, insane amount of damage for a cost of two energies, and had free retreat.
Cleffa is not broken, it is playable.
-Phil
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THIS is truly thinking outside of the box!
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From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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Ice'Cold
Member # 12056
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posted May 03, 2003 06:58 PM
There is no reason ban any of the cards suggested. Everything has its drawback, and I think that every drawback has been pointed out. Tyrogue is a 30 hp baby, fairly easy for any pokemon to kill in one hit, with an attack resisted by many pokemon, and only has a 50% chance of working. Thats its drawback. The only card I Think that may be considered in banning is Neo Genesis Cleffa, removal of that card would change the game alot, and make it much more difficult to get the perfect setup required of the bigger complex strategies. It might inspire use of some of the cards we dont see being used too often. But I dont think the game will ever live to see the day that cleffa is banned, not before genesis is rotated out, which I think may actually happen if nintendo takes over and switches all tourneys to E-Card, which to me looks like their plan.
*Note* I have always been in support of them just doing a freaking Errata on slowking and changing its power to what it should have been, only working if slowking is the active pokemon.
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Winner of the last official Wizards of the Coast sponsored pokemon tournament.
From: Illinois | Registered: Apr 2001
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted May 03, 2003 08:03 PM
quote:
WE MUST BAN WATER ENERGY!
Yes, water energy decks are insanely powerful ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif) I really do miss seeing a raindance deck, even though i remember it being annoying.
To the point, how about we ban that new scizor? seriously i'm not just joking. The one whose Heavy Metal attack has you flip for every metal energy on scizor? that's like a sneasel in a way, except even if you don't get heads on any flip, it still does damage. There are very few cards that involve the removal of energy cards in modified and with the availability of metal energy, this card could be very dangerous.
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"And there came a hero who said: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, nor the very fabric of time, but the hero would not prevail...nor would he surrender."
Registered: Feb 2001
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dkates
Member
Member # 113463
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posted May 03, 2003 08:10 PM
Again, I disagree. Look at these facts:
1. Scizor is a Stage 1 card, meaning it is not splashable.
2. Like you said, energy removal is a difficult strategy to use in Modified. Since so many decks thrive on having lots of Energy, Scizor is more of a counter-strategy than a strategy in and of itself.
3. The attack you mentioned depends on the number of Metal Energy on Scizor, meaning that by the time it's attack is powerful enough to be a problem, it's likely to have been Knocked Out. This was not the case with Sneasel.
Speaking of Sneasel, why don't they just change its Beat Up from 20 damage per heads to 10 damage per heads? That would bring its max damage down to 100 (with the turn 2 average for 2 Darkness Energy cards being 60-- still high, but not insane.) Then, like Slowking, it could be allowed to return to Modified, and Unlimited could get interesting again.
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Every time I think I can't say anything stupider, I prove myself wrong. Maybe I should just stop thinking.
From: Houston, TX | Registered: Nov 2002
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Pidgeotto Trainer
Member
Member # 133447
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posted May 03, 2003 08:15 PM
I seriously doubt any mentioned will be banned by wotc. None of these are nearly as broken as Sneasel or Slowking. To me Slowking was not a Pokemon card. If you looked at all the decks in Modified You would probably see different combinations of about 20 different ATTACKING Pokemon. (Gatr, Steelix, Kingdra etc.) Then you would find Slowking.
Now you have a lot of attacking Pokemon winning tournaments but not dominating them. That is how I believe the game was meant to be ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
The only thing worth considering of these choices for restriction for me is Tyrogue. It does stop electric decks from being played.(Think of how much Electabuzz would be teched without this guy.) Also how many of you fellow trainers have nightmares about going to a tournament and having your only baby Pokemon be knocked out on 2 heads with a Tyrogue on the FIRST turn. (Raise Hands.) But still it all revolves around coins/dice so you better treat your coins and dice nicely. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
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From: Seattle, WA (Home of the 2002 World Championship | Registered: Mar 2003
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BigChuck01
Member # 78755
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posted May 03, 2003 09:29 PM
Pokemon is balanced right now. I would like to see Band and Rogue out. And the people who think banning rogue is unbelieveable and that Cleffa HAS to be banned should be shot. Those are the stupid people who have a Scyther, Water, Tyrogue, Metal, and Elm in there hand who play the water on the tyrogue and try to smash punch the baby.
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Registered: Apr 2002
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Porygone3
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Member # 73689
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posted May 03, 2003 11:37 PM
just do Neo2 On.
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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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themcster
Member # 1207
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posted May 03, 2003 11:54 PM
thanks for feedback guys.
I am surprised that no-one wants to be rid of gold berry. Saying that you can 'get-around-it' is not as easy as you say most of the time, especially when you are fighting 100hp+ pokemon. I am not complaining about it, as of course I use them in every one of my decks! But I would love to see it banned, just to see how much if anything changes, coz i think it would. At least if it was not allowed we might see other printed cards used such as moo-moo and even the new amazing potion from skyridge.
WIzards can still encourage the sale of new sets without rotating out older ones if they specifically ban 'select' cards...
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Creator of the metal tyranitar deck. 7th September 2002.
Creator of the TMP dust devils deck. 7th September 2002.
From: horsham, west sussex. england | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted May 04, 2003 01:01 AM
I'd like to see tyrogue gone/weakened.
tyrogue is a major drawback to playing lightning: one card is supressing a whole type.
Gold Berry: not so sure about this one GB encourages the use of big monsters...isn't this how the game's designers want the game played?
Focus Band: A pet hate of mine...say no more. But its not my call...its not the flip I object to as the impact it has on the game. Still life isn't fair either ![[Frown]](../tcg/frown.gif)
As to the environment being balanced at the moment: I'm not so sure I'd say it is on a knife-edge at the momment..locally the environment has switched to scizor+water and some counter decks. Almost everything else gets hosed by Scizor.
I think that the idea behind the proposal is a good one: Namely that the environment hasn't changed for a long time and its about time we all had to think again! Its been 12months since the gym block was dropped.
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
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'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted May 04, 2003 01:16 AM
HOW many months and I STILL cannot believe people want Tyrogue banned *I guess PEOPLE LOVE FLIPS =/*, and FTK at the FLIPS of a tyrogue is PAINFUL but oh well...
BUT, the only arguement I could accept is NoPokes... one DAMN splashable baby STOPS one type of deck... I have seen a lightgning deck I CANNOT beleive works *sssshhhh* mum's the word.
BTW Bigchuck, You missed ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif) .
Yeah BAN water energy... lol
[ May 04, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
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SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted May 04, 2003 04:31 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LugiasForce:
There is a BIG difference between the cards you posted and Sneasel/Slowking.
I agree, but I don't think that is what McSter is getting at....
quote:
........think about having the following FEW cards banned, just to freshen and shake up the game a bit.
my emphasis....
to indicate just how significant tyrogue is I took a pile of them to gencon just to help fixup peoples decks. Tyrogue can single-handedly turn a poor deck into a (moderately) competative one.
Q.Dear Doc I'm running a lightning weak water deck..and I don't know what to do?
A. Ah don't fret its a virus. oops wrong kinda doc...over to you deck-doctors...
Easy! Add a couple of tyrogues and ensure you have two traders. Hah no more problem with lightning.
Doesn't anyone think that this is bad for the environment????
[ May 04, 2003, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Dark and Vile
Member # 74653
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posted May 04, 2003 06:49 AM
Cards should be banned only if they're stifling deck creativity because they are SO pervasive in almost every deck.
This is the stated reason Wizards went to the 3/15 format at the NJ STS in 2000 - everybody was using the same trainer engine.
I can see only two cards that are that pervasive - Cleffa and Professor Elm.
Tyrogue? I see a lot of them, but it's not pervasive. If I play 6 opponents, I'll see 3 opponents with them.
Gold Berry? That's really situational. Not every deck needs them nor uses them.
Focus Band? Maybe. FB coupled with babies make a strong combination.
But I don't think that any of these cards (including Cleffa or Professor Elm) are nearly as constricting to the format as Sneasel or Slowking were.
From: Melbourne, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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XAct
Member
Member # 121043
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posted May 04, 2003 07:34 AM
OK, this is an interesting topic, so I want to say something about it.
Whoever is saying that Tyrogue should be banned because it OHKOes babies is completely missing the point. The reason why Tyrogue is not fair is because it does a ridiculous amount of damage to Pokemon that are weak to Fighting... for just a colorless energy. And, to further make it more unfair, it has the protection of the Baby Rule.
In my opinion, the only problem that Tyrogue has is that it's a Fighting Pokemon. If it were colorless, then I wouldn't complain about it. Why? Because no type is weak to colorless. The guys that are saying that Tyrogue is hosing Lightning are correct. Actually, not only Lightning. It's also hosing Fighting-weak Colorless and the recent Fighting-weak Darkness. That's three types. That's too much. And actually, Modified is not balanced just for this reason. Lightning can't be played without being ridiculed by the Tyrogue. Colorless and Darkness (the Fighting-weak versions), too. To further strengthen my point, which Colorless cards are actually played? Light Dragonite, Cleffa and (maybe) Neo 3 Ho-oh. All of which don't have a Fighting weakness. Which Darkness cards are actually played? Murkrow, Neo 2 Umbreon and Neo 2 Tyranitar. Again, all of these cards don't have a Fighting weakness. Did the almighty Base Electabuzz see play in Modified? No, because it's a victim to Tyrogue.
Unless Tyrogue is banned, cards that are weak to it don't have a plausible chance to see play in Modified. That includes most cards from 3 types: Lightning, Colorless and Darkness. That simply means: No, Modified is NOT balanced.
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I'm the second worst Pokemon Player in Malta. There are only 2 Pokemon players here.
From: Malta | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 04, 2003 07:39 AM
I say ban all those dang babies!
![[Bounce]](../tcg/graemlins/jump.gif)
Seriously though,while there are some cards that are a little powerful,there isn`t anything that just overwhelmingly unbalances the game in the current format.Yes,it is annoying to see all those Cleffas and `Rogues,but we`ll just have to live with it.
`Sensei
[ May 04, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Wizpog_Sensei ]
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From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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321FlipsAreCool123
Member
Member # 124883
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posted May 04, 2003 10:03 AM
Read the Sig.
Then shoot me...
Flipping Out
--FlipsAreCool
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Heads I Win, Tails You Lose.
Tyrogue is my Hero.
I once won 3 out of 5 game in a single tournament with Tyrogue.
11-14 Winston-Salem SBZ Winner
2nd Place Overall
From: Raleigh NC | Registered: Jan 2003
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