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Author
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Topic: We need to fix this game NOW!
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 05:55 AM
Mods, please forgive me if I've got this in the wrong forum, but please give me a little space here to vent off some steam.
There are some mighty ominous clouds on the Pokemon horizon. The number of Pokemon Leagues this year is less than half what it was last year. Attendance at the Chicago Stadium Challenge was considerably less than expected. The crowd at the Orlando Gym Challenge was noticeably thinner than last year. I can only assume the same thing is taking place at other venues.
Even in our League, which I've always thought was one of the better ones, kids are now starting to play LU-GI-OH and Dragonball-Z instead of Pokemon. There has to be a reason for all this and I think I can sum it up in two words--coin flipping.
Face it folks, there's very little satisfaction in winning a game by getting a key coin flip. You didn't outplay or outthink your opponent, you were just lucky and you know it.
On the other hand, there is nothing more incredibly frustrating than building a good deck, playing it well, making all the right moves, and then losing because a critical flip came up tails.
In my case at League this week, it wasn't just one flip, but flip after flip after flip went against me and I went home mad and frustrated enough to throw every card I own (easily over two thousand dollars worth) into the dumpster, walk away from the game and never look back. ![[Mad]](../tcg/mad.gif)
To be honest, I'm beginning to wish now that I hadn't cashed in those frequent flyer miles for a ticket to Seattle.
This game is supposed to be fun. If it's not fun, there's no reason to play and certainly no reason to spend hundreds of dollars on it. Lately it hasn't been any fun at all. Even getting beat can be a positive experience if you can learn from it. However, nothing positive happens for either player when the coin decides who wins.
I don't think I'm telling the MT's anything they don't already know, but I'm going to say it anyway. We have GOT to fix things so once again it is player skill, not dumb luck that determines the outcome of the game.
Now I know Wizards is loathe to ban cards, and they don't always have a free hand to do what they think is best. However, the very existence of the game is at stake here. Keep going the way we're going now and it won't be all that long until there aren't any players left because everyone has quit in disgust.
With that in mind, I propose the following changes to Modified:
First, ban Cleffa--both the Neo and promo versions. We all know card drawing is critical, so he's a staple in every deck. Sounds pretty broken to me. How many games start out or quickly become a Cleffa vs. Cleffa situation as both players try to get the cards they need to set up? A bunch.
How many times does one player get hopelessly behind early because the coin is letting his opponent Eeeeeeek while preventing him from doing so? Again, a bunch.
Did the prevailing player earn that advantage? Heck no--the coin gave it to him and there's nothing the other player can do but watch helplessly. Is that any fun? Not in my book.
Second, ban Focus Band. If ever a card hands the outcome of a match to the coin, this is it. Last week, I had THREE matches that came down to a situation where if my Band holds, I win, if it doesn't, I lose. All three failed.
At the same time, my opponent's Bands were holding like the Great Wall of China.
Now don't talk to me about statistical probability. I aced college statistics and I know the probability of getting three tails on three flips is one in eight, but that's small consolation when you go home with three losses any one of which would have been a win had the flip gone the other way.
To be fair, if the equally unlikely outcome of three heads had occurred, I'd have gone home feeling much better, but still rather empty knowing I was more lucky than good.
In summary, the coin is absolutely KILLING this game. It's taking the satisfaction out of winning and sending good players home mad enough to quit.
That's not good. We need a fix and we need it NOW!
[ May 06, 2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Voltorb43 ]
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"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
- Red Green
"You might give out, but you never give up."
- Richard Petty--the greatest stock car driver ever.
From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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FireFighter09
Member # 3040
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posted May 06, 2002 07:57 AM
i understand your pain and the MT'S have seen this. Thats why dice have been starting to replace coins and have been a major factor in pokemon. The leauges and challenges are thinner but rememebr the gym and stadium challenges are an EXPERIMENT!
if they fail the MT'S will find a new way of getting new players in. We will have to wait till september and see what they think of next.
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From: Pittsburgh,pa 15212 | Registered: Mar 2001
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ChinoMoreno
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Member # 1392
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posted May 06, 2002 08:15 AM
Amen.
-Creeps back into the shadows
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From: Ar, Ca, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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Big_Pappa_Poke
Member # 3495
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posted May 06, 2002 08:21 AM
Man, I hate long posts that whine incesantly.
Coin flipping is a part of the game. It has been from the start. I, for one, am sick and tired of people whining about coin flips after they play a day at league or in a tournament where the flips don't go their way. There are alternatives to coins. I am increasingly against dice, but there are also electroflips.
If I sound cold... well, I am. Runs of bad luck happen. I've been beat by the same kid three times this year on first turn, BEFORE I DREW!!! Each time, he won the baby rule flip. Twice, he finnished it off with another flip for Smash Punch. Am I whinning, no. Stuff happens. Get over it.
BTW: Attendence at the Columbus Gym Challenge was HIGHER than expected! And the number of leagues are down mainly because of Toyr'R'Us shutting down their leagues. The league where I am is doing better than ever.
[ May 06, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Big_Pappa_Poke ]
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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 08:44 AM
Dice, coins, doesn't make any difference. Games are still being decided more on random results, than player skill. For the record, I was using both dice and an Electroflip.
The result was the same. Tails, tails, tails, tails, tails, tails...ad nauseum.....to he** with this, it ain't no fun and I don't feel like playing any more.
I know the MT's have the best interests of the game at heart. I know Japan can tie their hands pretty tightly.
However, the point needs to be made clearly and repeatedly that Pokemon has become TOO RANDOM .
CPU gets a lot of flack for advocating Unlimited over Modified and Unlimited isn't without its problems. However, there's more flipping in the first four turns of a Modified game than there was in an entire Unlimited match (at least one that wasn't an FTKO).
The MT's saw they had problems with Unlimited and they moved to fix them. Not everyone liked the solutions, but at least they did something.
IMHO, Modified's problems with the coin are every bit as severe as the problems in Unlimited that demanded that Wizards come up with new formats to keep the game alive.
I am asking, begging, pleading with the Pokemon community to join me in keeping this issue on the front burner.
The more Wizards sees this as a serious problem, the more leverage they'll have convincing the powers that be in Japan to let them implement fixes.
I'm on record as saying banning both Cleffa and Focus Band would be a good place to start. I can only trust that the MT's would appreciate seeing any other well reasoned proposals put forward.
Thanks.
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"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
- Red Green
"You might give out, but you never give up."
- Richard Petty--the greatest stock car driver ever.
From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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SauroN
Member # 373
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posted May 06, 2002 08:49 AM
Well, first I dont like all these posts about the coin flips. but second I really hate coinflips but I dont whine about it here on WizPOG. I remember when I played Sneasel. I couldve won the game if I had gotten 1 heads on beat down. but ehm. I got ZERO heads out of 6 flips. and THAT is annoying. Personally I think this is all the japanese dudes fault. They designed the game not WotC. If WotC wouldve designed the game I think it wouldve been alot more stable and more based on skill. we'll see what happens in the future. Maybe WotC can start making their own sets...
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From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted May 06, 2002 09:00 AM
DITTO!
AS much as I love the game, I see the comparisons. (yu-gi & DBZ are played here & I see the differences - I BUILD a deck & sure I lose BUT sure I win BUT it based on MY CARDS and MY DECISIONS during the game)
My bro had a beauty of a set-up: 2 slowpokes, 1 onix, a cleffa active...all he needed was one or 2 heads HE FLIPPED 8+ tails & his opponents got HEADS and set-up HER bench before HE could after that beautiful 1st hand... HE LOST. THE deck he plays with is formidable... it is HIS baby... BUT when the FLIPS don't go his way... IT is frustrating to know he has the skill he has the deck to win BUT it just isn't his COIN-dlipping day.
MY one tourney win? THE tourney that I FINALLY won? Was coin-flipped based: I was in a zone, I felt it, I knew it I COULD do no wrong. How did I feel at the end? Concerned. WHY? 2 coin flips do not go my way I am 2-0-2 BUT 2 coin flips went my way? I am 4-0? What a difference wouldn't you say.
It leaves me wondering, WILL I EVER win a tourney again? Not if I CAN'T flip.
BUT my bro and I worry... do want to GO BACK to FTK? Because ONCE babies leave the game.. (well if just cleffa is banned I am happy -iggly? Sorry I am biased-) PRE-genesis, THIS is all we would see play in tourneys: Trainer disruption & FTK.
LASS + ejiggly+4 Plus powers, ugh!
PS I've been playing this game long enough that IT ISN'T enough to have a GOOD game...flipping tails is NOT a good game anymore...
PSS We ALL do not know what is store for the game... some do... I really do think the future will be brighter...more player oriented... esp if the OTHER set that is being hinted at is produced...
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SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 09:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Big_Pappa_Poke:
Man, I hate long posts that whine incesantly.
With all due respect, sir, you seem to have an issue with everything I say and you no doubt still think I'm a idiot because we don't see eye to eye on the drafting thing, so I'll just consider the source.
However, what you call whining, I call trying to make a point about a problem that's hurting the game and I've offered a solution to that problem.
Yes I know flips have been around since day one, but do you realize that not a single Trainer in Base set required a flip? Not one! Back then there were no babies, no Chaos Gym, no Focus Band, no Slowking, etc. etc. etc.
Back then, games weren't decided by who flips the most heads. Today they are. Clear enough? Disagree with that assessment? Fine. Trot out some facts, logic and reasoning that say otherwise.
Don't like my solution? That's OK too as long as you offer a different alternative and explain why you think it's better.
The point I'm making is that the game has become so flippy now vs. the early days that it's ceasing to be fun to play. There's not the satisfaction in winning that there used to be and I find myself getting more and more aggravated with the game as more and more of my fate is taken away from me and given to the coin. That's a Bad Thing and I know I'm not alone here.
Your mileage may vary and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but let's keep this focused on what's being said and not who's saying it.
[ May 06, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Voltorb43 ]
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"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
- Red Green
"You might give out, but you never give up."
- Richard Petty--the greatest stock car driver ever.
From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted May 06, 2002 09:26 AM
Way to stop babys? Swift. Fent attack. Way to stop Focus band? Swipe. Plunder.
Want to not flip. Elm. Comp Search. Bill. Erica.
Want to mess up Babys' attacks etc? Dark Fralagator.
Want to not flip coins. Sure- I could build a no flip deck, but I promise you, your oppent is going to have a few flips involved in there deck.
You want luck, how is this? I fliped for tickle machine, and played Inposter Oak. I did it again... for a total of 4 times in a row (4 heads and thats 7 times 3 cards besides there orginal hand now out of play + 7 cards in there hand) then I attacked with Shining Tryantar and got 7 heads in a row (thats 11 heads) and left them with 1 card in there deck and no way to win.. on the end of there turn they got a big hand, and I just Dark Tyrantared them for 4 to totaly deck them. Thats luck.
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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Xeodus
Member # 58404
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posted May 06, 2002 09:50 AM
The fact is, is that this is how the game works. And this reason is because this game wasn't created for the mature audience. It was created so it was simple enough for young kids to understand, and it's STILL to difficult for most to pick up. Trust me, I know. The creators of this game came to the decision that Coin Flipping would be the easiest way to go.
To get right to it, it's just that all of the playable cards are on coin flips in this game. It's not our fault that Focus band, Chaos gym, Baby rule, etc., is on a flip.
The fact is, as said, this is how the game works. and no matter how much I might have the same problems with it as you, I've come to accept that this is how the game works. It is rare where you play a game where true skill is involved, but I've been lucky enough to play quite a few over the past few weeks.
As for games like Yu-Gi-Oh... according to everyone I've spoken to about it, it has more luck involved in it than Pokeman. And that says a lot.
MTM/DMTM (I forget who) said that Wizards are developing their own set to be released after LC. I expect this set will change the game if it is, infact, being hand-created by WotC. WotC realizes the game is too luck-based, and if this set is infact hand-created by WotC, don't expect to see many coin-flip/dice-roll based cards. This is my speculation tho.
But like I said already, this IS how the game works. If you plan to stay in it, You'll have to deal with it.
From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2002
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted May 06, 2002 09:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Porygone3:
Way to stop babys? Swift. Fent attack.
Sorry, Swift and Feint Attack still have to flip for the Baby rule. It's not an effect, it's a rule.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
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Registered: Feb 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted May 06, 2002 10:29 AM
I for one have no problem with coin flips. If you play both the Pokémon TCG and GB games you can understand why they coin flip is involved in the game.
They are tring to make a direct link betwwen the two games. this way if you start playing one game after you have already been playing an other you can more easly understand the game mechanics. The TCG is really more of an RPG.
Think of it this way:
In Pokémon Yellow...
Your active Pokémon is Richu...
You use Thunder...
Thunder has an accuracy of 70/100 so 30% of the time you will miss.
Also, Thunder has a 30% chance of Paralyzing your opponent
So out of 70% that the attack will work the is 30% of that that it will paralyz the other pokemon.
Or even wost:
What if you only have a Tauros left...
The next attack will KO you...
The only attack you have is Fissure with 1PP left...
Fissure is one of the wost attacks ever....
It only has a 30% chance of hitting but if it does it automaticly KOs your opponent...
You have no idea how many GB matches have come down to one player winning if they can get that one unaccurate atttack to hit. And its those matches that people talk about and what has made the GB games so fun. You just never know when an attck might miss and cause you the game or when your Fissure might hit 2 or 3 times in a row and make you win in one of the biggest come backs ever.
Thats the whole idea behind a coin flip. Sure, with a coin that makes attacks and effects from happing 50% of the time. But that just makes the game that much more interesting. The Pkmn TCG is not suppose to be like other TCGs where it all depends on who builds a better deck (Where one card beats another just because it has a much stronger attack power and the other is a very weak deffese).
The coin flip makes it possible tto make you think how to build a statigicly sound deck. Coin Flips make it posiible for a very weak card to beat a very strong one. It balences cards so that one doesn't have a very big advantage over an other and to prevent to many exactly looking decks from showing up in one place. it actually makes you use every single card availible and not just the best 10 or 15 cards in a set of over well 500.
If you think of the TCG like an RPG you will uderstand why and how the coin flip was introduced into the game.
It just makes things more interesting and balances out cards to prevent people from only using the best.
(Just like the electorial process in natinol voting. Each state is given a certain ammount of electorial votes to keep presidential candidates from just compaining in heavly populated states like CA and NY. Which is why Bush is president or else it would have been Gore because he got the most individual votes.)
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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Apr 2002
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CJ-Mich
Member # 835
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posted May 06, 2002 10:30 AM
I too hate posts that endlessly whine. However, I don't think Voltorb43's is one of them. Although throwing your cards away in disgust would be a bit overboard.
He has a valid point. Coin flips will always be a part of the game, but it does seem like they have become TOO much a part of the game. The newer sets just have many more "flip a coin, if heads....." in addition to the babies, Chaos Gym etc.
The "play more basics" and "play a deck that doesn't require as many flips" arguments just don't wash anymore. If your opponent plays 3 Chaos Gyms, what can you do? Play 6 counters? If he plays 3 promo iggly's with Focus Bands, you will be doing a lot of flipping no matter what you play. Someone said "Plunder". Well, up against a Cleffa, you're still going to have to flip a coin.
I accept coin flips as a part of the game, but I still hold out hope that they will be less prominent in the coming sets. This game really should be more than who can flip the most heads.
And as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, the cards just aren't there to substantially reduce flips in a game.
From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted May 06, 2002 10:35 AM
Players which use flips against their opponents are employing perfectly valid strategy...just as valid as the stall techniques that everyone complained about back in the days before strategic flip-based interference became more prevalent. I don't see the problem here at all...this is just a part of the game being used as it should be. And note that nothing stops YOU from using the same interference techniques to affect your opponents' success/fail ratios on _their_ actions.
This is how the game works. It employs chance factors. Life also employs chance factors. And sure, people also complain that life's unfair...but you also can't do much about the chance factors there, either, save for strategically manipulating your life situation to a point where chance affects you less. If anything, I view the coin-flip factors in Pokemon as being something that makes the game _more real_; perfect determinism is what'd kill this game a lot quicker, with more FTK, more cookie-cutter deck strategies, more repetitive and predictable play, etc. Dull.
Do coin-flips run people off from League? Maybe. But what runs people off from League in droves is losing most of the chain outlets that hosted League until the past several months. THAT has been League's major buzz-kill, not anything in game mechanics. Where league locations exist outside of places such as TRU, etc, you often see increases in League attendance when there's a good GL in place and a good amount of buzz about League activity.
Coin flips? Nah...it ain't that simple. Better look at the much, MUCH bigger picture of this game first...then the problems get more apparent, and you notice that they're coming from a lot of other directions, some even including the players!
[ May 06, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Lugia909 ]
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From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 11:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CJ-Mich:
I accept coin flips as a part of the game, but I still hold out hope that they will be less prominent in the coming sets. This game really should be more than who can flip the most heads.
And as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, the cards just aren't there to substantially reduce flips in a game.
Bingo! My problem isn't with the EXISTENCE of coin flips or with their legitimacy as a strategic weapon. I just think their level of influence over the game has risen to the point where Pokemon has turned into more of a game of chance than a game of skill and that has seriously eroded my enjoyment of it.
A certain degree of randomness is necessary in any game designed for kids, but any game that's played by anyone over five years old shouldn't be routinely decided by a coin flip. Strategy and skill should count for something and it doesn't when the flips decide the winner.
I too hope the new sets are less coin-dependent and that Cleffa and Focus Band go away. That would still leave plenty of randomness, but bring the flipping down to some semblance of a reasonable level.
[ May 06, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Voltorb43 ]
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"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
- Red Green
"You might give out, but you never give up."
- Richard Petty--the greatest stock car driver ever.
From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted May 06, 2002 11:21 AM
I agree to a point Voltorb. I would like to reduce the flips as well. Maybe that can be worked on. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
However, I will say that they are a mainstay of the game and for all the complaining about them their "Randomness" is only a face value observation.
They are a probability based equation with a mathematical outcome based on a simple formula. You can do all that is possible from your standpoint to avoid them if you believe you have "Bad Luck" I suppose.
One more thing. The game was designed with the flips as a part of the inherint "balance" of the game. Such as it is.
If you try to influence that too much you destroy that balance.
It is a very important piece such as it is, and the way it was intended to be played.
I hope this makes sense to someone else besides me.
I think there is room for some movement...but not a lot.
DMTM
[ May 06, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: DMTM ]
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
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posted May 06, 2002 11:34 AM
This is why I prefer Unlimited over Modified--the lack of flips.
The deck I use would only need to flip heads to attack babies, and on its lone Energy Charge. Otherwise, the deck needs no heads to function.
In Modified, there's no way around it.
Although I usually take the coin-flip thing as more of a joke...when I am deciding what to get at a restaurant, or what game I'll play at an arcade, or who goes first at playing said game, or who gets the random extra card out of a lot of cards bought at a flea market, I'll use a coin flip.
Let's see...in Modified...most decks require flips in their favor to function. What was that one deck that didn't...oh yeah... FERALIGATR! And everyone hates it, because it wins all the time, because of its unlimited Trainer engine, ability to control its damage, and NO FLIP CARDS (save for the Focus Bands).
I'd like to see some flip cards lose their "if tails" effect though...that would make the game more tolerable.
Like...Rocket's Secret Experiment losing the no Trainers if tails thing, or Energy charge shuffling in two basic energy on a tails.
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What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
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Skywolf1
Member # 1448
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posted May 06, 2002 11:36 AM
Voltorb:
I agree with you whoheardly here.
I have posted numerous topics on this very issue.
My solution is, like M:TG and the SWTCG, is costs involved for certain actions. This is referred to in both of the abovementioned games as TAPPING.
Now, I am not advocating that that is the "end-all" solution to this problem.
What I am saying is that instead of, "Flip a coin to determine if such and such an attack works" instead "Discard X number of energy cards in order to use this attack."
From what I have heard, M:TG in its early stages was very "flip reliant", but as the game matured, "costs" were implemented to make that game more skill based, and less LUCK based.
I wouldn't give up yet. This game needs good people like yourself to ensure that this game thrives. While I understand, your "disenchantment" with this aspect of the game, I think this game's future is quite bright.
So, I hope you hang in there, I think it will get better.
Take Care,
Skywolf1 ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
--------------------
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Skywolf1: JOLTEON--You practice as you perform. At first you bide your time and become very resourceful, but when the time is right and the odds are in your favor you strike full force at whatever the task might be.
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From: Las Vegas, Nevada USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Big_Pappa_Poke
Member # 3495
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posted May 06, 2002 11:38 AM
1: You say that coin flips are "too random." when in fact, you are complaining abouut a string of bad luck with the flips. Everyone (unless they are influencing the flips) goes through runs where heads or tails seem to run rampant. No one complains when flips seem to go their way, but hit a bad streak, especially in a DCI-tournament, then the game is broken.
2: If it is "too random," that's not a bad thing, THAT'S A GOOD THING ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif) (Sorry, DDP, couldn't help it)
If it is random, that means that it will even out over time, basically dampening the effect that the flips have over the course of many games. If you "aced college statistics" like you said you did, (which, in fact, I passed three of them, two with As) you would know this fact.
3. If you can't live with random, I suggest you not play ANY CCGs. You do need to shuffle your deck. There is an element of randomization in ALL card games.
4: You complain about a lot of different flips, but I didn't read once about the flip to start the game. That is often more important than any, especially for decks with the ability for the FTKO (see my last post on this topic). How would you feel about losing those games without the ability to play? I know ways to fix that situation, but I don't think that the problem is so big that it needs fixed, much like yours (which I really don't see as a problem at all).
BTW: I didn't call you an idiot, and I never have. I DO think you are whining. Take that as you will. Don't take responses personally. I treat each post on its own merits, not by who wrote it. You should do the same.
[ May 06, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Big_Pappa_Poke ]
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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 12:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
I agree to a point Voltorb. I would like to reduce the flips as well. Maybe that can be worked on.
Thanks DMTM. I sure hope so. I understand what you and others are saying about the necessity of having flips as part of the game and I agree they are indeed necessary to a point. I just think they've become too much of an influence in the current environment.
In a nutshell, I'm just saying that a game should be fun and I just wanted to be sure you understand why Pokemon in my opinion is becoming less and less fun and more and more frustration and aggravation.
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From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Sniper
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Member # 73093
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posted May 06, 2002 12:05 PM
I play with Voltorb 43 every week at league and I have seen 1st hand the frustration he speaks of. It seems to me that in this format he who wins the key flips ( eeeeeek on a baby,
focus band, etc.) wins most of the battles. Not all of them , but most. Very frustrating for the over 15 crowd to deal with tails after tails after tails! The kids at our league are getting a little sick of it, too.
We accept the coin (dice , electriflip) as a part of our game. It does seem to me that this environment has become a bit too "flippy" . We have gone from 1 extreme to another. Personally
I'll take standard.
Though I'd like to see the outcome of our battles come down to skill and how you play your deck, ultimately he who gets the key flips wins.
I do believe "banning" Cleffa and focus band would eliminate a lot of the key flips we are talking about. But I feel ALL babies are broken
and unless all are banned the same problems will
exist.Just 1 mans opinion.
We all must remember Pokemon wasn't designed to be played as competetively as we do here in the states. It's a kids game and sometimes this "grown-up" needs to be reminded of that .
Since I don't enjoy drafting, guess I will have to deal with the flip until changes are made.
From: Citrus Springs FL | Registered: Mar 2002
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lvirden
Member
Member # 294
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posted May 06, 2002 12:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
The game was designed with the flips as a part of the inherint "balance" of the game.
I hope this makes sense to someone else besides me.
...
I think there is room for some movement...but not a lot.
DMTM
I was just remembering when I first started playing pokemon - base set 1. What I always hated was that the people with enough money to go out and buy the holo charizards, etc. had an advantage to those of us whose boosters had not turned out to contain as strong of cards.
It seems to me, after the past 3+ yrs, that the game has indeed become more balanced, with chance providing a way for someone with a bit weaker deck to withstand a lot of hammering by someone rich enough to shell out for the expensive heavy hitters.
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From: Reynoldsburg, OH , US | Registered: Feb 2001
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted May 06, 2002 01:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Big_Pappa_Poke:
1: You say that coin flips are "too random." when in fact, you are complaining abouut a string of bad luck with the flips. Everyone (unless they are influencing the flips) goes through runs where heads or tails seem to run rampant. No one complains when flips seem to go their way, but hit a bad streak, especially in a DCI-tournament, then the game is broken.
What I said is that it's a lot less satisfying to win and a lot more aggravating to lose when the outcome of what is supposed to be a skill based game turns more and more on the flip of a coin.
IMHO, the combination of less satisfaction in winning and more aggravation in losing is a Bad Thing for the game in general and I'd like to see steps taken to fix that.
Yeah I've had days when I flipped a lot of heads and no one could touch me, and it was indeed last week's incredible run of bad luck that pushed me to write this. However, I've been thinking this way for quite a while now--thru both the good weeks and the bad ones.
Now if I've got this wrong and Pokemon is supposed to be more luck than skill, then I guess I've just been playing the wrong game all along.
quote:
2: If it is "too random," that's not a bad thing, THAT'S A GOOD THING (Sorry, DDP, couldn't help it)
If it is random, that means that it will even out over time, basically dampening the effect that the flips have over the course of many games. If you "aced college statistics" like you said you did, (which, in fact, I passed three of them, two with As) you would know this fact.
True, the flips even out over time, but that's small consolation when you need to win a particular game to make the tournament finals and that's the moment when randomness suddenly decides that your opponent can Eeeeeeek three times in his first three turns and you can only Eeeeeeek once, and his Bands all hold and none of yours do.
I didn't get outplayed. I got outlucked. A hollow victory for him at best and frustrating as all get-out for me. It didn't used to be that way. It is now. The rise of randomness in Pokemon has changed the game dramatically--and not for the better.
quote:
3. If you can't live with random, I suggest you not play ANY CCGs. You do need to shuffle your deck. There is an element of randomization in ALL card games.
Precisely, my friend. There's plenty of randomness in the game already without adding a coin flip to every turn.
I'm not suggesting that the randomness be eliminated--only reduced to the point where it's not always the primary factor in determining who wins. Put the satisfaction back into winning and turn the focus back to who can build and play the best decks, not who can flip the most heads.
quote:
4: You complain about a lot of different flips, but I didn't read once about the flip to start the game. That is often more important than any, especially for decks with the ability for the FTKO (see my last post on this topic). How would you feel about losing those games without the ability to play? I know ways to fix that situation, but I don't think that the problem is so big that it needs fixed, much like yours (which I really don't see as a problem at all).
The flip to start the game has always been with us. My point has been about how the marked increase in flipping makes today's environment less enjoyable than the old days. In that light, it makes no sense to "complain" about the opening flip.
No, I didn't particularly like getting FTKO'd by "Oak, Plus Power, CPU Search, Plus Power, Oak, CPU Search, Plus Power, Oak, Plus Power, Jab for 60, you're dead".
However, I find "Flip for baby power--heads, Fury Swipes, heads--heads--heads, KO the Cleffa, game over" much more aggravating.
In the first case, my opponent built a deck designed to do what it did and he executed it. In the second case he was lucky as he** to get four heads in a row. (One chance in 16) Huge difference in my opinion.
One loss teaches me the value of search power in a deck and shows me a tactic I might want to try myself. The second just makes me mad that fate kicked me in the groin.
quote:
BTW: I didn't call you an idiot, and I never have. I DO think you are whining. Take that as you will. You do have a pretty good post in the League Play forum that I replied to and certainly didn't reply negatively. Don't take responses personally. I treat each post on its own merits, not by who wrote it. You should do the same.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes calling someone an idiot and where the line is drawn between whining and pointing out a problem and trying to get it fixed.
I do indeed try to respond to what's being said and not who's saying it. However when you see the same people taking shots at you over and over, it's hard not to think there's something personal involved.
[ May 06, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Voltorb43 ]
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"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
- Red Green
"You might give out, but you never give up."
- Richard Petty--the greatest stock car driver ever.
From: Ocala FL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted May 06, 2002 01:14 PM
I see DMTM agrees with me. The coin-flip is needed to balance out the entire game. That way you have to think hard what cards to put in your deck and not just use the very strong cards (About 10-15 out of the well over 500+ cards)
I also believe that the coin-flip is there to make the game more of an RPG and to tie in with the GB and GBA games.
See my previous post further above...
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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Apr 2002
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GreatFox
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posted May 06, 2002 01:49 PM
Orinaly posted by PokePop:
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S'true.
We still remember the AD&D game where all but one of the party was wiped out by overwhelming odds. The person that had the one remaining character decided to try to take out the villians' leader (a certain Lizard King) with one shot of her bow. I told her that she needed a 20 to hit the creature from where she was, then a 20 to hit him in the eye (causing blindless at least) and then another 20 to kill it outright. 3 twenties in a row. The odds against that were 8000 to one!
Darned if she didn't roll three twenties.
I had the rest of the enemy flee. What else could I do after that?
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Exactly my point. People are comming into this game with a mentality that it should work like any other card game. People think it should work like a game of poker where one hand always beats the rest. Or like other TCGs were the monster with the highest Attack Points always beats the one with a lower Deffense and HP (Like Yu-Gi-Ho, stupid game and show!!!!).
What people have to do is play the GB game first. After you get acustomed to the RPG mechaniques of the game you can come into the Pokémon TCG world with the mentality of it being more of an RPG than a TCG.
After all... Think about it.... You have to catch the pokémon (Buy booster packs), Train them (Construct Decks), and bettle with them (ahh... Battle with them).... You can't get a more RPG like TCG than the Pokémon TCG.
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