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Author
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Topic: The Flood has begun?
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old man
Member # 28
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posted March 17, 2003 07:03 AM
I have personally seen packs for $.99 at a couple of my local Wal-Marts, as well as Theme decks for $5. You can bet I bought a lot of packs.
They had probably a case or 2 of packs dumped into a bigger box that you could dig through. I couldn't believe it!
Oh yeah, this was about 2 years ago when I saw that. Maybe they started the flood then????
Wal-Mart buys tons & tons of product that go to different warehouses. From the warehouses eventually to the store. A lot of times things do get "lost" at Walmart but are finally found when inventory time comes along. Maybe this store has inventory soon & just found the product.
I've worked at Walmart for over 11 years & have seen how some things get lost. Just a few months ago there was a computer found that sold for $1000 originally. If I remember the date correctly it was from 1994 & it had all the latest stuff, you know, like a 66MHZ processor & a big 13" monitor. Anyway the thing was finally trashed, no one wanted it. This is but 1 example.
I don't think WotC chose to start dumping product at this location or at any other yet.
[ March 17, 2003, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: old man ]
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
Dci tournament coordinator for the OKC area!
From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 17, 2003 08:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by old man:
Just a few months ago there was a computer found that sold for $1000 originally. If I remember the date correctly it was from 1994 & it had all the latest stuff, you know, like a 66MHZ processor & a big 13" monitor. Anyway the thing was finally trashed, no one wanted it. This is but 1 example.
I hope they at least donated it to a local school or something... ![[teach]](../tcg/graemlins/teach.gif)
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted March 17, 2003 08:49 AM
Look folks...as I said earlier, the price I saw wasn't indicative of a flood-tactic. It's good to hear that some of you have seen this type of strange-marked boxes and big increase in old boosters for sale in your area WalMart or other chain store.
But I repeat, what had me wondering was that there WASN'T this kind of supply at my WalMart last week...and when I asked the manager, he responded in the way I told, saying that he was told through Corp. that the cards weren't going to be printed anymore. We all know that the next three sets are already in the pipeline. Perhaps his higher ups aren't well informed. Making the connection between the store manager saying this and it being his explaination for the sudden influx of old cards seemed simple.
'Naut
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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CmonIWanaPLaYa
Member
Member # 101319
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posted March 17, 2003 09:59 AM
Right Naut...totally agree on the misinformation...I was just trying to say that since this info has been released, non-renewal of the license, other companies with back stock are going to get rid of it and load the shelves thinking Pokemon is over..(it is NOT)..and that they need to get rid of stock asap to make some yield on it, that is all I am saying.
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Either, you Pokemon Yes, or you Pokemon no. If you Pokemon Guess So, sooner later, "squish" justa like bug Pokemon!!
Registered: Aug 2002
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LeagueMom
Member # 53859
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posted March 18, 2003 05:47 AM
After speaking about this with a close friend who happens to manage a Wal-Mart this is what I was told.
Wal-mart does have a LOT of cards to sell.
"If someone was trying to get rid of a lot of stock, we (Wal-mart) would certainly take it off their hands."
However, the price, while lower is NOT a rock-bottom-get-it-off-the-shelf-now price.
Wal-mart has always bought Pokemon cards and had them repackaged in those blister packs with the random boosters. (An outside company repackages them for Wal-mart.)
I was also told that they have a LOT of Yugioh and even Dragonball Z and Digimon cards to sell.
So 'Naut is correct about the influx of cards but it does not appear to be a flood the market with ridiculously low priced cards to mess someone else up kind of thing.
More just Wal-mart doing what it always does; buying a lot of product and that smiley guy cutting the price.
From: Broadview Hts. Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gym Leader Blaine
Member # 5977
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posted March 18, 2003 08:35 AM
I have yet to see any really big dumping of the booster packs. In the past I have seen somethings. Over a year ago durning the x-mas time the Game Keeper store here in Salt Lake had Base - Gym II booster packs for only $1. Wizards was cleaning out the old to make more room for the newer sets. This stuff happens all the time. I really dont think we will see any major flooding until after Nintendo starts to sell there cards, if we see it at all. Also I think a major factor would be if TPC is going to allow the WOTC printed cards to be played with the new sets or not. I really dont see why the wouldnt since it is all the same game and the WOTC sets are just reprints of the sets the were printed in Japan.
GLB
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"One day I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!" - Anakin Skywalker
darkmt_mike presents the speaker with question 83 from gym_leader_blaine:DMTM who would win in the battle in Gengar VS Jango Fett?
darkmt_mike says, "Hmm. think Gengar uses the Force so I would bet on him."
Salt Lake City Professors Web Site
From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Mar 2001
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted March 18, 2003 11:45 AM
actually it's not the same game. Over in japan, pokemon is 3 different branches of the same game. There's the base-gym challenge, neo1-neo4, and the expedition series'. VS is also in there somewhere, i believe, probalby in the neos. They all have different backings and are played under those requirements in some tourneys, or so i'm told.
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"And there came a hero who said: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, nor the very fabric of time, but the hero would not prevail...nor would he surrender."
Registered: Feb 2001
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Ice'Cold
Member # 12056
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posted March 18, 2003 02:08 PM
Well, think of the fact that WOTC still does not know if the old cards will be playable. A logical soloution wouldbe to unload their warehouses to places like walmart in large quantaties. Then if the old cards are no longer playable and only the new ones are, the value of old cards drops to almost nothing and places like Wal-Mart, rather than WOTC is stuck with a loss.
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Winner of the last official Wizards of the Coast sponsored pokemon tournament.
From: Illinois | Registered: Apr 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 18, 2003 02:45 PM
Sorry, but from a purely market oriented point of view there are problems with your view of what would be done. Your solution is not logical.
We are making the cards still so throwing lots of stock from us to the market does not help us. We still are supporting our brand of tournaments and play. Makes no sense to "flood" the market in this fashion.
Companies like Wall-mart only see that WotC has announced that WotC won't be producing the cards anymore. So of course they will put out more of the product since the future of the cards is not clear to them. So they will put out more of their inventory.
Playability is not as big as a factor to the overall market as you think.
This is how the situation appears to me from an observatory point of view.
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted March 18, 2003 03:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
Playability is not as big as a factor to the overall market as you think.
Clearly it is not.
If it were, then there would have been a greater push By WotC toward OP from the very beginning of its involvement with the game.
Instead, WotC chose to market the game more to fad adherents and collectors than core gamers. This was ultimately in WotC's (short-term) profit interest.
It was not, however, in the interest of the actual players, particularly older ones. I believe that the MTs generally have supported the players all along against other forces inside the corporation who simply wanted to milk the fad and get out (while pulling any real players up into M:tG, which is focused on the player base). Even the MTs, our allies, have often said that they believe PTG is deeply flawed from the standpoint of mechanics, balance and internal consistency. The game, they say (rightly) was never meant for hard-core players or competition.
Given Hasbro's experience, which shows actual gameplay to be a minor element in driving sales, why on earth would the new producer not devalue OP?
The new company, like Hasbro, is gonna want numbers. What profit potential can be expected from the expenditure of X budget on OP? If the numbers are not in our favor, there will be little or no movement toward quick establishment of OP by the new producer. 
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 19, 2003 01:31 PM
Playability and OP are not the same thing.
OP is extremely valuable not just because it sells cards, the main value in my opinion is that OP keeps the game alive.
By keeping the game alive it accomplishes many things.
1. The game is visible to the public through tournaments and Events.
2. The players of the game spread the "news of Pokémon" to the public.
3. Pokémon regenerates itself through its continued appeal in part because of the players.
OP was/is a big part of our game. I think we supported that, even though there were changes in it's structure.
One would hope that this is a lesson "people" will take to heart. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Ice'Cold
Member # 12056
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posted March 19, 2003 01:53 PM
In my opinion very VERY few people, if any buy the newer cards just for collecting. Most people who I have seen do that in the past were mainly smaller kids, and Yugio has taken most of their intrests.
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Winner of the last official Wizards of the Coast sponsored pokemon tournament.
From: Illinois | Registered: Apr 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 19, 2003 02:43 PM
I'm not sure that is correct Ice. Many many new people buy many many cards. It really depends on what you consider "playing". Most people who buy the cards "play" with them in only a limited fashion. Many people buy them just to have them (collect). We are mostly talking about children here, lots and lots of children...and Sensei. ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
...err..and me. ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif) I collect them all.
DMTM
[ March 19, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: DMTM ]
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted March 19, 2003 03:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
Playability and OP are not the same thing.
OP is extremely valuable not just because it sells cards, the main value in my opinion is that OP keeps the game alive.
True. OP has certainly kept M:tG alive (and growing). Advertising dollars are expended at a fairly healthy rate in support of M:tG OP. Those dollars were not forthcoming, at least in later years, in the case of PTG.
quote:
By keeping the game alive it accomplishes many things.
1. The game is visible to the public through tournaments and Events.
2. The players of the game spread the "news of Pokémon" to the public.
3. Pokémon regenerates itself through its continued appeal in part because of the players.
OP was/is a big part of our game. I think we supported that, even though there were changes in it's structure.
I was not referring to OP in general, but to premiere events. The events that WotC sponsored were excellent, but they lacked the visibility and promotion that was needed to 'spread the news of Pokémon' enough to maintain momentum. I run 2 BZs myself, and additional tournaments as well. This has kept my isolated pocket of players intact and enthused, but most other areas have seen a distinct lack of OP opportunity.
I think that the elimination of the 15+ division was a pivotal decision in the history of the brand. Many have suggested that this was designed to spur a transition from the 'child's game' (PTG) to the 'teen/adult game' (M:tG). The policy did have that effect to a small degree.
However, it alienated many gamers as they aged out of the PTG target audience. Had the game been billed as a 'game for the whole family', with prospects for continued play past the age of 14, things might have turned out differently. There was some eventual movement in this direction, but it was not in time to reverse the long-running player exodus or counter the defections to YGO.
quote:
One would hope that this is a lesson "people" will take to heart.
Agreed.
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Master Trainer Mike
Member # 13
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posted March 20, 2003 01:58 PM
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by LizardOTC:
OP is extremely valuable not just because it sells cards, the main value in my opinion is that OP keeps the game alive.
[/qb]
True. OP has certainly kept M:tG alive (and growing). Advertising dollars are expended at a fairly healthy rate in support of M:tG OP. Those dollars were not forthcoming, at least in later years, in the case of PTG.
quote:
By keeping the game alive it accomplishes many things.
1. The game is visible to the public through tournaments and Events.
2. The players of the game spread the "news of Pokémon" to the public.
3. Pokémon regenerates itself through its continued appeal in part because of the players.
OP was/is a big part of our game. I think we supported that, even though there were changes in it's structure.
I was not referring to OP in general, but to premiere events. The events that WotC sponsored were excellent, but they lacked the visibility and promotion that was needed to 'spread the news of Pokémon' enough to maintain momentum. I run 2 BZs myself, and additional tournaments as well. This has kept my isolated pocket of players intact and enthused, but most other areas have seen a distinct lack of OP opportunity.
I think that the elimination of the 15+ division was a pivotal decision in the history of the brand. Many have suggested that this was designed to spur a transition from the 'child's game' (PTG) to the 'teen/adult game' (M:tG). The policy did have that effect to a small degree.
However, it alienated many gamers as they aged out of the PTG target audience. Had the game been billed as a 'game for the whole family', with prospects for continued play past the age of 14, things might have turned out differently. There was some eventual movement in this direction, but it was not in time to reverse the long-running player exodus or counter the defections to YGO.
quote:
One would hope that this is a lesson "people" will take to heart.
Agreed.[/QB]
Interesting perspectives, and ones that have been discussed many times over the years.
Allow me to weigh in my .02. Some of what I will say will agree with you, some will not.
First of all, Organized Play has never been about acquistion of new players. Ever. Not in Magic, not in D&D, not in Pokemon.
You cannot expect a first time purchaser to jump through the hoops of a tournament or even a league. We released OP earlier than expected once and were again proven that you need to wait until a certain critical mass of sustainability is reached.
Short answer is, there need to be enough people actually playing (not colecting) the game before you create programs to keep them playing.
Organized Play is about retention of players. I won't bore you with statistics (and we have plenty) but OP basically exists as retention based marketing. Give players something to do with their nice new cards and they will stick with the brand. As you have said, the fad aspects of any game rise and fall (anyone remember the X-Files tcg? Star Trek? Digimon?), a game (or a fad) lasts because a critical mass is reached AND sustained. Advertising is about the acquisition of that mass (remember all of those Pokemon TCG TV ads we did? movie promos? print ads? online contests? mall tours?); Organized Play is about sustaining that mass.
So, OP started once it became apparent that enough people were actually interested in playing the game. Over 90% of the initial sales of the Pokemon TCG (and over 50% of them still today) do NOT go to people that play the game, but rather those who collect it. Argue all you want but the facts are the facts.
That is not the case with games such as Magic or Star Wars or 7th Sea or many of the other TCG's on the market. Not so many collectors, far more players (who may also collect).
So, you see more OP for those games because OP is about sustaining existing playing groups, NOT creating new players (not directly).
Premiere events exist as the cap to a full pyramid of Orgainzed Play. By providing ultimate goals, you increase the likelihood of a player staying in the game (he or she now has a goal to work towards).
In the early years of Pokemon, the Super Trainer Showdowns were part of the transition of trying to show casual players/collectors the fun of tournament play. Say what you will about the tournament sizes (they were fairly large), but still the vast majority of people that showed up at those events were collectors and casual players as best. It was only once we got to the final STS that the number of serious players (which OP is geared towards) started to become the majority of people that came.
This also coincided with the predictable decline in Pokemon overall sales. Not because anything is wrong with Pokemon, but because its fad aspects were starting to fade. Look back at ANY fad, they all grow rapidly and then decline over time.
This is in no way a negative to you the player base who have worked hard to keep your favorite game alive. You are all very important as ambassadors of a great game. But even to this day, the vast majority of Pokemon sales goes to collectors/casual players, NOT to competitive players.
Also keep in mind, that marketing dollars (whether advertising or OP) are based upon a fixed percentage of a products sales. As Pokemon came down from the mountain, so too did the budgets for these programs. So instead of League kits with VERY expensive brass badges (VERY VERY expensive), we moved to promo cards and tournament play. Some of you have said that this caused younger players to leave Pokemon. If they only came because they got a brass badge then they weren't really there to play Pokemon, at least not at a serious long term level. Once the fad of Pokemon started to fade, those players would have moved on to Yu-Gi-Oh or whatever else was big anyway, no matter what we gave them (that could be afforded).
But the true Pokemon players and fans stayed. Why? Not because of the fad (though that might be why some of you joined in) but because you enjoy the game.
So once again OP evolved, due to smaller budgets, and a maturing and evolving market. No more mall tours but BattleZone, no STS's but the Challenge Series and finally the Professor program.
Now we get into the contentious matter; the 15+ issue. We have all talked this one over for the last 2 years. There are reasons that I consider valid on both sides of the discussion and it was not an easy decision that was made. It was partly based upon smaller budgets (based on smaller sales as Pokemon started to reach its natural level of sustainability), partly based on serious concerns voiced to us by numerous parents about allowing adults to compete against their children, partly based upon the overal goal of what Pokemon was, and so on. But no matter how you cut it, the reality existed (and still exists) that the VAST majority of Pokemon TCG sales do NOT go to adults. They do not even go to players of the game.
There are many thousands of you that are active players, Professors, and supporters of the game and that is wonderful! Pokemon will continue in no small part because of your energy and love of the game!
But even with your thousands, you represent a minority of the Pokemon TCG purchasers. And ultimately, Pokemon is a business (just like movies, and books, and music, and video games).
However, we recognized how important you are, not so much in sales (acquistion) but in retention. You are the ones who run the leagues, TO and judge many of the tournaments, and teach and encourage local players to stay with the game. So the Professor program was created to provide the type of support that was needed to help you help keep the game sustained.
I understand that not having an opportunity to win a paid trip when you are 15 or older seemed unfair, but once again, the vast VAST majority of Pokemon sales went to the younger collectors and players. We also didn't get threats from parents when their 7 year old playes against a 12 year old. And so on and so on.
The older players that stuck with Pokemon did it for the love of the game. The fact that you have been willing to stay with a game that is no longer considered as cool as it used to be (as the fad fades) already shows your strength of purpose. (I won't mention the number of articles and postings I have read from many of you talking about how you still play even though school mates tease you about it). Providing a small number of you the chance to win a trip would not keep you with the game. You are here already. And for the small number that left because they felt that Pokemon was no longer providing them what they wanted, there were many other opportunities out there for them (in Magic, DBZ, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and so on).
Many of those other games are full of older professional players. Pokemon was the game for the younger players, the new guys. If we maintained "heavy" prizes for Pokemon, you would have seen many of those sharks come over to feed in the easier ocean (it had already started when we removed the trips for the 15+ players).
Anyway, I know that this decision was contentious (it was contentious within the walls of WOTC) but I just want you all to know that it was not done arbitrarily and it was done because we thought it was the best way to keep the game healthy overall.
The Professor program was then created to directly reward the type of behaviour that is so desperately needed from the adult player population; keeping the game sustained and alive.
Did it succeed? Are you happy with the choices that were made? These can all be debated on and on and please feel free to do so. Share your opinions about what we did that worked and what you felt didn't with the Pokemon Company and hopefully they will listen and Pokemon will continue to grow and thrive.
We had many more plans for the Professor program (a 3rd level) and a World Championship and new programs (the Player Rewards program for example) and while I am sorry that I won't be able to work on them with you, I am full of hope that the new Pokemon partners will offer you their own ideas of keeping this great game alive.
Looking back I see that I wandered a bit in my discussion but I wanted to share with you my understanding of what Organized Play truly means, and the history of Pokemon so that you can make your own choices based upon a better understanding.
I look forward to still work with you on the upcoming SBZ's, BattleZone, and Championship events at Origins and Gen Con and I wish you all and Pokemon a bright future.
Thanks for listening.
Michael Gills (Master Trainer Mike)
Mass Market Programs Manager
Wizards of the Coast
[ March 20, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Master Trainer Mike ]
From: Renton, WA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted March 20, 2003 03:18 PM
Thanks Mike for that post
I think we see better what could influence decisions behind the walls and we have a better understanding of OP from the companies point of view.
Could be useful for some of us in a near future too ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
POKEMON TEAM BELGIUM
BattleZone BRUSSELS - Belgium loves Pokemon too ! ! !
From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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Ice'Cold
Member # 12056
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posted March 23, 2003 08:03 PM
Gj mike, I think everyone in the pokemon world will miss having you here ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif) .
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Winner of the last official Wizards of the Coast sponsored pokemon tournament.
From: Illinois | Registered: Apr 2001
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Meganium45
Member # 99835
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posted March 27, 2003 03:22 PM
Damn, brazen honesty.
You need only look at the posts of MTM and DMTM to figure out why a lot of us have kept this going for so long.
We played a game we love, and wanted to see the game flourish. When we had questions or needed someone in our corner, we had the MTs to turn to, and felt as if we had a backing in the big nasty corporate world.
You will be missed. I hope that Nintendo does at least as good a job at WOTC in keeping the fans informed, the leaders informed, and the game progressing.
At first I had doubts if my 2 year old would get to learn to play the game that myself and his older brother have learned to love. Now I am confident it will happen.
Let's face it, those of us who do this do it for our kids, do it for their friends, and do it for the friends we make.
I never dreamed that I would actually be going to Origins to the final WOTC pokemon professor championship without my kids, but instead with other Poke-friends (adults). My wife did not argue, as she knows how this game has brought my kids closer to me, and to other friends.
If y'all are in the neighborhood next Wednesday, yep, we're drafting again.
Can't wait to talk about the next SBZ!
Meganium 45
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"To Make a Difference, you have to be Different"
Winner and parent of 6 year old winner (Little Duck) of Colinsville SBZ!
Other son was the 9 year old winner May SBZ at Dragon King, the best place to play Pokemon in the Midwest!
NOW 3 TROPHIES!!!
THE MASTER PROFESSOR IN ST. LOUIS and TO too! Yipee!
Gotta love St. Louis 8th, 9th and 10th and the Origins Professor Championship! (I was 9th :( )
Too bad we never have room for our bench - - lol.
From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002
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professorbix
Member # 76358
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posted March 27, 2003 05:29 PM
thanx for the post MTM, OP has definately been the best thing to happen to this game. i remember when i first started the game, not knowing much about the game, the seemingly endless arguments over card rulings...etc. but now with the professor program, the players just coming into the game have a definitive figure to look to with questions. so iguess what i'm really trying to say is...THANK YOU....you and your fellow master trainers have given us the abilities and (hopefully the respect of the younger players) to keep the game alive and well for a looooong time to come. hope to see ya at origins
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proud parent of the Exton Pa S.B.Z. 10 and under champion
From: lebanon, pa | Registered: Apr 2002
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted March 27, 2003 06:42 PM
Blink. ![[Dubious]](../tcg/graemlins/dubious.gif)
The Professor program was needed for a lot of reasons, even had the status of 15+ in premiere OP not changed (I'm not talking about the t-word ![[Mad]](../tcg/mad.gif) ).
Anyway, given the sour circumstances the Professor program was refreshing lemonade. ![[Angel]](../tcg/graemlins/angel.gif)
[ March 27, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: bulbasnore ]
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Pokemon TCG is a game for all ages.
6th Place June 2002 WCSC Professor Draft
6th Place July 2003 Comic Con Fan Appreciation Tourney
From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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