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Author
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Topic: Harnessing the Power of the 15+
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted November 28, 2002 07:40 PM
We have all read the whining rants and self-serving tirades. But, lets not point to those as a reason to dismiss the basic issue: the 15+ division was "taken from us", and we all miss it. It is not clear exactly "who took it", but it seems clear that decision was driven by economics, not by some perverse wish to "stick it to the players". Any hope of changing the status quo must rest, then, on economic arguments.
So, lets have no ranting, no spam, and no flames (for once), OK?
We have been told that, according to WotC's analysis, the vast majority of Pokémon sales are made to/for the 14- age category, and that most of those sles are in quantities far less than a box. Although some of the older players (like me) buy cards by the case, those purchases are far outweighed by the small purchses by/for kids.
It is also clear then, that most of the people who buy cards never go to any Premiere events. Just look at the sizes of the younger divisions at Stadium Challenges! Simple math clinches this one.
So, let us work on the assumption that the vast majority of the cards sold are used in casual play, or simply collecting, the vast majority of the time.
If that is the case, why are there Premiere tournaments at all?
The answer is simple: they inspire purchases of cards among many child players who hope to be able to go to one someday. They are marketing events intended to increase sales, not perks for those of us who feel entitled to them.
So, if this is true, then the top tournament players, and especially the winners, are role models models to the kids who buy cards. In much the same way that sports stars help sell footwear and clothing, highly-ranked Pokémon players help sell cards to younger, aspiring champions.
Now then, I ask you: who makes a better spokesperson for Nike, the middle school MVP or Michel Jordan? Well, duh!
So, why should Pokémon be any different? Kids in the target age group (14-) naturally look up to successful older people far more than they do to successful peers.
A kid who is 13 or 14 today will buy more cards if s/he knows that s/he has some time left to develop the skills to be a champion, and a good opportunity to do it. Imagine that a kid has a choice between a sport that ends at 8th grade, and one that continues into high school and college. Which one will the kid choose?! Again, duh!
Furthermore, older players almost always provide the transportation for younger players traveling to Premiere events. I can not count the number of adults who have told me that they would have brought their kids or younger siblings or other relatives/friends to Premiere events if they could have played themselves. I literally know dozens of people like this. What happens to puchases when kids know that their older relative/neighbor/friend will give them a ride to a Premiere event? They buy more cards because of their hopes for the future!
The real problem is that WotC has correctly identified the target group for Pokémon marketing, but has gotten the strategy all wrong. Sure, the game appeals most to the 14- group! But, what keeps those kids from jumping from Pokémon to the next new fad? Nothing!
But, maybe there could be something: older players. I will argue that older players are the key to the long-term survival and growth of this game.
Wizards can, and should, shift the definition of Pokémon from a "kid's game" to an "all ages/family game". I am hoping that the TMP format indicates a willingness to consider this.
So, what do I propose?
I propose that WotC insitute a 15-18 division at all Premiere events. Knowing that there are budgetary constraints, I propose that WotC offer no free trips for this division. Perhaps WotC could offer free hotel accommodations to invited players from this group, budget permitting.
No free trips? Many will come anyway, and we all know it.
Why 15-18 only? It's a good start, that's why! Sure, 15-18 year old players will have to choose between playing in their age bracket or judging the younger divisions and playing in the professor-only events. There will still be many older professors judging, and some of the 15-18 profs may choose to judge too. The cost of establishing a 15-18 division will be small.
Remember, though, that WotC can/will only do this if it is clearly in their own economic interest. I think that a 15-18 division would boost Pokémon card sales by:
- Keeping kids buying longer because they have more years to play
- Keeping families playing/traveling together
- Providing older role models for younger kids to aspire to
- Allowing Pokémon to compete better with other non-WotC games marketed to teens
- Inceasing the player/consumer base
- Generating positive PR for WotC as a wise and responsive company
- Rekindling enthusiasm among players who have lost hope in the future
- Reclaiming players who have left the game by giving them a reason to return
I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
The time has come, Wizards! Establishing a 15-18 division is a smart move, serving the interests of consumers, and especially WotC itself!
[ November 28, 2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: LizardOTC ]
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Skywolf1
Member # 1448
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posted November 28, 2002 07:58 PM
Mr. Spriggs: A very lucid and well thought out post! Very well done! I agree wholeheartedly. Let me share a recent e-mail that I had written to Bruce Loeb, Marketing Director at Pokemon USA, Inc.
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Mr. Bruce Loeb, Marketing Director
Pokemon USA, Inc.
400 Madison Avenue, 21st Floor
New York, New York 10017
Dear Mr. Loeb:
Before I begin, I would just like to reiterate my sincere thanks for taking close to 45 minutes out of your busy schedule to field my questions, comments and concerns regarding the Pokemon brand, and its continued success for many years to come. I was very appreciative that you and Pokemon USA, Inc. have time to listen to the needs and concerns of Pokemon fans such as myself.
I wanted to expound a bit more on the issue of the situation with the Pokemon Trading Card game with respect to Wizards of the Coast (WotC) and its direct involvement with your parent company, The Pokemon Company (TPC).
For you to better understand where exactly my information comes from, allow me to give you a link to Wizards of the Coast "official" message forum for the Pokemon Trading Card Game. The URL is: http://boards.wizards.com/tcg-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?category=4
There, you will find people from all over the world talking about the various facets of the Pokemon Trading Card game, good, bad or indifferent.
A username is not required to read topics, however posting to topics will require registration through the forums themselves.
These forums will give you a good idea what players from all over the world are experiencing with the Pokemon Trading Card Game in their area. These forums are not without their share of unfavorable comments though, some of which I detailed in our recent phone conversation.
(Edited for content)
Mr. Loeb, there are many dedicated Pokemon players and supporters in Europe, and especially in the United Kingdom. Wizards of the Coast Europe is doing a good job with promotion and communication in Europe with the Pokemon brand, with the limited means they have available to them. (Edited for Content) In the United Kingdom, Pokemon still has a presence, however, if it wasn't for the tireless work and dedication of a handful of "Pokemon Professors" and players in that country, the Pokemon Trading Card Game would have certainly suffered the same fate as it did in France. Mr. Loeb, for this game to continue to thrive and survive, and for the continuance of the Pokemon Brand into the very long term future, some issues have got to be addressed to ensure this game's continued success as a WORLDWIDE brand, that not just children can enjoy, but one that FAMILIES can enjoy! Believe me, there is a difference.(Edited for content)
(Edited For Content)
Many older players crave the opportunity to play in preimere events alongside their children, and feel disenfranchised.
Mr. Loeb, in my experiences in speaking with players and visiting message forums and such, the concern that I hear the most from players is that they want a game that they can play and participate in without age constraints or without the common "stereotypes" often associated with Pokemon, as a brand being SOLELY tailored for just the younger set. I would like to see the game marketed as a FAMILY game with emphasis placed on the family, since in my travels to many "large scale" Pokemon tournaments, I often see parents playing a game right alongside their children, and the "bond" that this game creates is one that is truly a "timeless" experience for all. Changing the marketing strategy of this game, would also breakdown the perception that many people have as Pokemon being a "children's" game, which I can tell you first hand, it ISN'T.
(Edited for content)
Thank-you for your time.
Regards,
Marsh Schneidau
(Edited for content)
[email protected]
/RMS
Skywolf1
[ November 28, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Skywolf1 ]
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Marsh Schneidau
(aka Skywolf1)
Founder, Card Trainers International
Nevada's FIRST Master Professor
Skywolf1: JOLTEON--You practice as you perform. At first you bide your time and become very resourceful, but when the time is right and the odds are in your favor you strike full force at whatever the task might be.
Visit "Team UK's" NEW website at:
www.members.aol.com/hairyclefairy
From: Las Vegas, Nevada USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Gymbo
Member # 30832
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posted November 28, 2002 08:01 PM
A very well-written and thought out post and topic. I can sit back and agree with your idea. That is definitely a very smart and fair concept for us. I believe that it would not only benefit the 15+ but WotC as well, as Lizard said. I know the main reason I come to major tourneys is for the desire to compete. Just giving the 15-18 players their own ability to compete would soothe a lot of anger IMO. But it is at WotC's financial discretion ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif) . Do I see this happening? I'd like to believe it would happen, but I just don't think it will.
Again, Lizard, great Post
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=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=
*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
*Innovator of Expedition Feraligatr*
*Current Project: Skyridge Analysis*
DCI: 2032
AIM: XGymbo01X
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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mysterioustrainer
Member # 1049
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posted November 28, 2002 11:31 PM
I definietly liked your thoughts about 15 and up, at first I thought my original thoughts (that I posted in I'm quitting the game) were firm to the ground but I had to reconsider for the sake of all of you guys. I then built myself some If, then questions that I answered that reflects potienial future thoughts on the 15 and up. I might sounds harsh at some places but its honest thought and logic, and it also addresses what I want based on what will happen.
Should 15 and Up be brought back?
Anymore I am staying out of this subject, until what WotC says about it. We have the Professor program and I am content with that, however I felt wrong about strongly attacking the issue against those supportive of the 15 and Up division. Now I feel that I can't decide what I really want.
If the 15 and Up is brought back, what's the future of the Professor Program?
I am a Pokemon Professor, and I like it. Not for myself, but to be able to help out now. I am a person that is relied on alot in my league, I help side-judge, I am responcible to teaching new players, I am sought for my overextensive knowledge of the trading card game, and I am recongized as someone special, because I am a Pokemon Professor. Even though I haven't earned Master Professor this year, I am reguarded as a good Professor by my friends at home, at league, and at the web. I also had the honor and opportunity to actually help out at the Pokemon World Championship because I am a Professor.
Now my problem is that if the Challenge Series is expanded to the 15 and up. What will happen to the Professor Program? Professors play a vital part in the Challenge Series, they help out. Running these massive events are not easy and require manpower. That is one of the reasons why the Professor Program was made.
If the Challenge Series was opened to the 15 and up what would I do?
I would try to go to the top because I love playing the game, but if help as a Professor is needed at any Stadium Challenge or Worlds itself I would put that as my first priority, because I have already proven my worth as a good trainer. I really want to go to all of the Stadium Challenges and Worlds and I want to go as a Professor to help. I loved my time I did at Worlds 2002 and now I want to take it to the next level.
I might sound crazy, but this is what I think and can only hope that whatever does turn out in the long run will be for the best. So right now what I am trying to express is if we get 15 and up back that is great, if we don't I will still be happy, because I am still a professor.
[ November 28, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: mysterioustrainer ]
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~Myst
www.freewebs.com/mysterioustrainer
Check out my personal website. Includes my ideas for decks my own fake cards, GB Teams, links to Ebay auctions, main trading page and much, much more.
1748 DCI Rating
Top player in state of Wyoming (Hmm. Could have something to do with the fact that the other four players in the state haven't played in over two years?)
From: Wherever the adventure takes me! | Registered: Feb 2001
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Psychic_Prof
Member # 96987
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posted November 28, 2002 11:40 PM
I have dutifully read almost every post to each 15+ rant of misdirection and have come to conclude this.
Most fail to appreciate the fact that 15+ play has not been done away with. It has simply morphed into the professor program, which, IMHO is far better than any tournament division could ever be.
Lizard pointed out that younger players will look-up to the successful older players. This is true...and also one of the reasons that the Professor program was initiated.
Here are some benefits of the professor program:
1. Special 'Professor Only' tournaments (and you say we have no tournament division)
2. Opportunities to advance the game (delegate program among others)
3. The ability to say "I'm a professor, how can I help?"
These are just a few benefits of the professor program.
There are special tournaments just for us that noone but professors may be involved in...nobody below age 15 may enter...sounds like our own division to me.
Even though it's just starting up I'm sure the future holds much, much more for the professor program...including free trips.
Now...the biggest argument I've seen from the Professor Program opposition:
1. I can't take the test...I either don't have an internet connection or it's not working.
To this I say...
Most Gym Leaders at least come to the boards...and I'm sure would be more than happy to lend you an hour of internet time should you prove excited enough about it.
Also, I don't see WotC not having professor tests or information available at Premiere events.
...and finally, most schools have 'net access...if not yer school then your local library.
Honestly...the test isn't that difficult. You need to study floor rules, and the Universal Penalty guidlines and have a better than basic knowledge of the rules, but it's nothing you can't read a couple of documents for...also, most are simply common sense.
The professor program is a beneficial transformation of the 15+ division. Sure you have to know whats going on...but you're being put in the position of a role model ...someone 14- will look up to and buy packs because of (as stated in Lizard's reasons why a separate 15+ division would be a good thing).
To conclude, I believe you have all been mislead in thinking that 15+ has been done away with. It's right there in front of you all. At the very least, taking the test to join the division is better time spent than what most of you would be doing anyways ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
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Using Archtypes in Pokemon would be like the Iron Chefs making a pepperoni pizza.
Creativity sets the elite from the amateur.
From: Redwood City Gym, Eureka, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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mysterioustrainer
Member # 1049
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posted November 28, 2002 11:48 PM
Careful there Psychic_Prof, your right about our role as Professors but what LizardOTC and the others are trying to say (I think) that 15 and up division is for playing, the Professor Program is for helping not a fancy way to play, at least that is what I think we are at right now. As you can see, my opinions only matter to the fact what happens when Challenge Series gets started. Just wait and see what happens, that is my advice.
1. Special 'Professor Only' tournaments (and you say we have no tournament division)
Along with shirts, promos, etc, these tournaments are a gift pretty well to us for working as professors. The other divisions don't do a thing to get theirs really. Pretty well the entire situation with 15 and up is that the whole game (like Magic) should have premiere tournaments for all ages because there is business from all ages.
2. Opportunities to advance the game (delegate program among others)
3. The ability to say "I'm a professor, how can I help?"
Yes your right, this is the Professor's mission. We choose to do to this because we wish to excel beyond the role of "trainer". My reply backs this up.
[ November 28, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: mysterioustrainer ]
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~Myst
www.freewebs.com/mysterioustrainer
Check out my personal website. Includes my ideas for decks my own fake cards, GB Teams, links to Ebay auctions, main trading page and much, much more.
1748 DCI Rating
Top player in state of Wyoming (Hmm. Could have something to do with the fact that the other four players in the state haven't played in over two years?)
From: Wherever the adventure takes me! | Registered: Feb 2001
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted November 29, 2002 05:30 AM
This was mentioned in another thread, I'll restate it here.
Gym Challanges MUST hold a 15+ side tournament this yeat. Last year, it was unclear if locations were running ancillary events or not. It said to call the organizer or contact them via email if it was visable... how many people did that?
I know that the product that is given to the primere event organizer for the 10-Under and 11-14 Qualifying Tournaments are free or at a cheaper price than consumer boxes. You do not necissarily need to do the same with the 15+. Do not feel a need to give any prize, let the primere event organizer decide what to do with the tournament. Really the only thing that most of the 15+ players want to do at Gym Challanges is play. Showing up to a Gym Challange with no 15+ Tournament sucks for some who travled over two hours to attend.
-Phil
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THIS is truly thinking outside of the box!
Check out Florida's Pokemon Website
From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted December 01, 2002 03:42 PM
Why do we ask for something we already have ?
A lot of topics and posts have talked, and will talk, about the 15+ category that we want back.
What’s the situation now ? 15+ players may play in any local event and they may play in Premiere events if they are Professors.
So which are the differences with the past ?
There are less trips to win for Worlds and you have to be a Professor to play in Premiere events. But you have the opportunity to judge and help during Premiere events and Worlds.
To play in big events you have to take a test, but is that so bad, is that a real problem ?
For non English speaking players maybe (the test is in English only), even if a lot of non English speaking people are Professors/Master Professors. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
We know that some Professors have taken the test for the opportunity to play in big events only, without having the intention to be involved in the Program.
If we do agree on the fact that it’s not a bad thing to know the rules if you want to play as 15+ in a Premiere event, I think we’ll agree on the idea of the Professor test for 15+.
If we go a little bit further than what we have, without trying to have a revolution, what could we have ?
- 15+ allowed to play in local events (it’s the case)
- 15+ allowed to play in Premiere events if they have proved, through a test, that they know the rules of the game (it’s the case, and it’s useful if we want to keep the idea that 15+ are models for younger players)
- a specific World Championship for 15+ (we have it, it's the Professor World Championship)
- more Professor events and eventually more trips to Worlds
- better ‘visibility’ of the Professor events like Worlds
- either specific qualifiers for the Professors World Championship, or the Professors World Championship run during Worlds (the best solution IMO)
- if we want our game to have ‘models’, promote the Professors championship
- make a bigger difference between Professors who take the test to play and Professors really involved in the Professor Program (Master Professor is a first step)
- the family aspect of the game could be easily put forward if Teamplay is promoted
- Professors could play and judge during Worlds if the schedule is a little bit changed compared to Worlds 2002 (top 8 could then be possible for example)
More trips to Worlds ? Of course yes, but why and how ?
More Professors mean more opportunities to run side events, to have a 101 Pokemon area, … More Professors doesn’t mean a much more important budget … if trips are paid without hotel.
European Professors have traveled from all over Europe to the Gym Stadium in Amsterdam and paid their hotel. Other European Professors have been to Worlds and paid their hotel. Expensive ? Not if you share rooms for example … or if you have a friend close to Seattle who could organize a ‘Professors sleep well’ at home. We’re a big community, no ?
But believe me, if European Profs could pay for the hotel, most of them couldn’t afford the plane ticket (more than 1000 USD). ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
If I do completely agree with Lizard's analysis, I don’t really agree with his proposition of a 15-18 division.
I think the idea of 3 age groups 11 and under – 12 to 14 and 15 to 17 is better.
The same range of ages is covered, but shared in a better way.
That means that players between 11 and 13, who have generally really few possibilities to win in a 11-15 category at Premiere events, will have the opportunity to qualify for Worlds again.
They will certainly be more motivated and not only will not quit the game for some of them, but will bring new players of their age to our game.
In the case of a 15 to 17 division, the Professor Program would start for players of 18 and more. The gap between the Professors who may not be TO or delegates would not exist anymore. No guardian would be needed for the qualified too.
No revolution I said, just some modifications of what we have today.
One last thing. If Wizards want to increase their sales, I think it’s important to remember that playing parents will buy more cards for their kids than parents who do not play. It’s a natural reaction to put money in something you like than in anything else.
I maybe haven’t understood the 15+ question, people who say ‘we want 15+ back’ do maybe want something else. If it's the case, please let me know.
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
POKEMON TEAM BELGIUM
BattleZone BRUSSELS - Belgium loves Pokemon too ! ! !
From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 02, 2002 09:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by GymLeaderPhil:
This was mentioned in another thread, I'll restate it here.
Gym Challanges MUST hold a 15+ side tournament this yeat. Last year, it was unclear if locations were running ancillary events or not. It said to call the organizer or contact them via email if it was visable... how many people did that?
I know that the product that is given to the primere event organizer for the 10-Under and 11-14 Qualifying Tournaments are free or at a cheaper price than consumer boxes. You do not necissarily need to do the same with the 15+. Do not feel a need to give any prize, let the primere event organizer decide what to do with the tournament. Really the only thing that most of the 15+ players want to do at Gym Challanges is play. Showing up to a Gym Challange with no 15+ Tournament sucks for some who travled over two hours to attend.
-Phil
Here is what I posted on Pojo:
OK, let's talk about the upcoming Organized Play.
Last year, there were side events available to all ages...it the TO decided that they wanted to do them.
They were secondary and they could not be depended on.
You want an issue that 15+ can put some weight behind and show some progress? There it is.
I think that the upcoming events should all have either 15+ events (whether there is a trip awarded or not) or open events for all ages. The important thing, though, is that they be featured in the advertizing and that the players can depend on them being there.
By leaving it to the discretion of the TO is only inviting a mess.
Will there be a tourney a 17 year old can play in or won't there be? Many times people didn't know the answer to this until days before the event or even until they got there!
And then, even if you know there is going to be something, it it going to be Unlimited, Modified, Draft, Team, or Limited (precons)? Who knew? How can you get a good showing if people don't know what they are showing up for?
As Random said, it's all about the comraderie. I don't think the prizes need to be fantastic, but the event needs to have something for 15+ that they can know is going to be there.
So, who thinks this is worth getting some support behind? Its a good time for it since the schedule is still being worked on.
I think this is a step improvement that we can get if enough support is put behind it by the players.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted December 02, 2002 10:06 AM
I agree 'pop
Events should have a WOW about them but it doesn't have to be prizes
15+ must know that they are wanted and catered for. No Ifs. No Buts. NoMaybes!
Broken promises lead to dissent ( and descent too!)
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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ukpokemonpro
Member # 518
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posted December 02, 2002 10:39 AM
No problem with 15+ playing on the 15th December .. see my sig.
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ukpokemonpro
"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"
"London Super Battlezone 2003"
quote the judge...
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
14,000 deck boxes yeah we'll take all of them .... what have I done!
Find the Pokemon League and Tournaments in Kent at:The Gamers Guild
From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted December 02, 2002 02:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Psychic_Prof:
Most fail to appreciate the fact that 15+ play has not been done away with. It has simply morphed into the professor program, which, IMHO is far better than any tournament division could ever be.
Lizard pointed out that younger players will look-up to the successful older players. This is true...and also one of the reasons that the Professor program was initiated.
I myself am a big proponent of the professor program. It does a LOT of important things, and I am heavily involved.
However, there is one important thing that it does not do all that well: inspire youth.
Younger players may respect the Professors in the same way that they respect a referee for a sport. But how many players say to themselves "if I just keep practicing and working on my skills then maybe someday I can become... a referee!"?
Not many.
However, a huge number of players are inspired to work hard (and buy new clothing and equipment) by sports stars (such as Michael Jordan).
What's missing is the glamor that comes with an older player who wins the big tournament. Honestly, this is what most players really want: a chance at glory!
I'm sorry, but a victory won late at night in a deserted exhibit hall with zero publicity (not even a page on the WotC website!  ) does nothing to keep younger players looking ahead to future opportunities.
But, if a teen player knew that s/he had until age 17 or 18 to play in the big event, I believe they'd stick with the game longer, and buy more cards. After this, it would be a natural transition to enter the professor program.
The professor program and a 15-17(or 18) tourney division serve different purposes. I firmly believe we need both.
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Meganium45
Member # 99835
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posted December 02, 2002 04:09 PM
The 15+ players did get support at last year's GC and SC through prize support for the side events. Where do you think all of those Neo Rev 1st Ed holo sets came from? I think at Nashville, the side event was more popular than the tourney.
At Dragon King the 15+ division is thriving. We have multiple professors (and soon a 2nd TO) who love to play the game, both amongst themselves and with the younger set.
We just got done with our $200 cash prize tourney - had 16 of the best players in the area. The top 4 decided to split the prize money - $70.00 each! Not bad for an afternoon's work! Check out the tourney reports for more news on that tourney. They had a group draft after a tourney that lasted for over 5 hours! Pokemon all day and night! (seemed like a SC)
You know, that was so much fun, we'll do it again! This time we're going to lower the entrance fee to $10.00. Same format - Modified. Big prize money again! Date December 28, 2002, place Dragon King Hobby - Registration starts at 12:00, play to begin at 12:40 - 2 out of 3 rounds, 50 minute time limit! This time we will play the top 8, no time limit!
Keep your eyes out for Pokedoc's Chicago tourney coming soon (he promises). There will be a group from St. Louis heading up for that one!
There is plenty of momentum in the midwest for Pokemon - just have to find the right place to play!
Oh, yeah, expedition draft this Wednesday at Dragon King in St. Charles/St. Peters - 6:00 p.m. on December 4th..
The beat goes on....
Meganium 45
Secret is folks, you have to have a core group of 3-4 "power" players to get the momentum going...and going...and going.
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"To Make a Difference, you have to be Different"
Winner and parent of 6 year old winner (Little Duck) of Colinsville SBZ!
Other son was the 9 year old winner May SBZ at Dragon King, the best place to play Pokemon in the Midwest!
NOW 3 TROPHIES!!!
THE MASTER PROFESSOR IN ST. LOUIS and TO too! Yipee!
Gotta love St. Louis 8th, 9th and 10th and the Origins Professor Championship! (I was 9th :( )
Too bad we never have room for our bench - - lol.
From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 02, 2002 05:12 PM
Meganium: While some locations did have good 15+ events, many did not. That is a problem. I also agree with Lizard that it was very disappointing for there to be no mention or coverage of the Prof events on the website. It would have cost nothing and would have gone a long way to reducing tensions.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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MasterChief
Member
Member # 116617
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posted December 02, 2002 09:31 PM
I agree with LizardOTC 100%! I hope that WotC will make the 15-18 division BEFORE I turn 19!
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Ranked #1 Pokemon Sealed Format in WI
Current BZs I attend: Brookfield, WI
From: SE Wisconsin | Registered: Nov 2002
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted December 02, 2002 11:18 PM
Expect a longer, well thought out essay later. But first:
I agree. This game NEEDS to be treated as a FAMILY game. The packs don't say "for ages 10 and up" for nothing.
I also agree that if you want kids to keep looking up at this game (and to PROVE that older players play it), it needs more publicity for older players.
Kudos to Wizards for creating the Professor Program! Kudos to Wizards for setting up the Professor/Wizards Challenge at Worlds!! All of this is a step in the right direction! But I feel Wizards needs to take another STEP and glorify gamers of ALL ages.
Older players need their fair share in the spotlight like all other players.... just to show non-Pokémon players that we still DO play this game. I constantly amaze other gamers when I mention that I play Pokémon. Even more so when I mention that there 15+ players equal or outnumber younger players (there WERE 90 of us Sunday night at Worlds...). But they all thought that this was a kids game and the players quit after 14 or 15. Now they think otherwise.... but they're just a few people and not the WHOLE gaming community.
We need our Michael Jordans. We need out "World's Grand Champion" decks. We need SOMETHING to show that this isn't JUST a kids game any more.
There is a quality in Pokémon that can attract both young and old. Why not exploit that??
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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LugiasForce
Member
Member # 79373
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posted December 05, 2002 05:39 AM
I agree fully with LizardOTC, we need a 15+ division. This should be considered a family game aswell, since I know many parents that play it with their kids. 3 of my closest Pokemon friends on-line are adults. 33 or older.
~LF
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Raichu's Pokemon Community - The Pokemon Shop - References - Haves/Wants
From: Ks, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Pokesensei
Member # 7
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posted December 05, 2002 09:47 AM
quote:
I myself am a big proponent of the professor program. It does a LOT of important things, and I am heavily involved.
However, there is one important thing that it does not do all that well: inspire youth.
Younger players may respect the Professors in the same way that they respect a referee for a sport. But how many players say to themselves "if I just keep practicing and working on my skills then maybe someday I can become... a referee!"?
Not many.
However, a huge number of players are inspired to work hard (and buy new clothing and equipment) by sports stars (such as Michael Jordan).
What's missing is the glamor that comes with an older player who wins the big tournament. Honestly, this is what most players really want: a chance at glory!
I'm sorry, but a victory won late at night in a deserted exhibit hall with zero publicity (not even a page on the WotC website! ) does nothing to keep younger players looking ahead to future opportunities.
But, if a teen player knew that s/he had until age 17 or 18 to play in the big event, I believe they'd stick with the game longer, and buy more cards. After this, it would be a natural transition to enter the professor program.
The professor program and a 15-17(or 18) tourney division serve different purposes. I firmly believe we need both.[/QB]
Bingo.You hit the nail right on the head!
I agree 100% with you Jared.The Pokemon TCG took a hard hit when WotC deleted the 15+ from the scene.Of course,the Professor program is a great one and is improving with each year,but there are alot of teens(and adults too! )out there that would love to "get the glory" and win a major Tournament that is for all to see instead of "a victory won late at night in a deserted exhibit hall with zero publicity."
If WotC wants to keep the younger crowd that is turning 15(and everyone through 19),they must get them a division for their own.Otherwise,you are cutting off a whole group which is not healthy for the game in my opinion.For this game to be a continuing success,we need to make sure the needs of all age groups are known and being addressed or otherwise,we can all kiss the game goodbye.
`Sensei
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: Out of the Box | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted December 05, 2002 11:44 AM
Family game. Right on. Who won't have been prouder that Jerome seeing his Dad, Jean-Marc, taking first place at the WCSTS 2001? My kids seeing me placing in the top 4 at WCSTS 2001 along side of them on stage at that event.
Yes, Professor Program is needed but not at the expensive of the Family play. I have made this known to WotC and others players. Taking one member (now two) of the Family out of truly competitive play has taken the fun out of playing a game together. It is like I can teach them to play Pokemon monopoly but I can't truly play ( compete) the game with them.
Yes, it was a lot of fun playing in the Professor events at Worlds but it lost the Family experience that we all enjoyed from past events. It was like sitting down with a bunch of great friends having a beer and conversation in the back yard, not truly competing but having fun playing a game we enjoy (hmmm, reminds me of a game I had at the ECSTS 2001 with Bob Callanan from Boston at the Embassy Suites in the evening), while the kids were busy doing their own thing. It was a lower level competition without the kids (not the sharing of our competive experiences, wins and defeats, encouraging each other to continue, trading stories, etc.).
What was so much fun at the Tropical Mega Battle 2002 was that TPC put on a Competitive play for all the age groups (12 and under) and adults. There we were, Jean-Marc and Jerome, Michel and Laetitia, Jonathan and I, Mindy and Jim, Nick and Yolande, Japanese Parent and child, etc., competing to win our individual age groups, at the same time and it was the most fun I had this year (felt like the STSs). After each round of play, we would see how each other was doing. Sharing Family time together as well as sharing time with new players, making new friends, seeing friends and expereincing how everyone else was doing in their individual "tournament." We all played for fun and had a blast.
Yes, I will continue to help out as always but I do feel it is at the Family expense (oh, experience, sorry). ![[Frown]](../tcg/frown.gif) ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted December 05, 2002 02:57 PM
Do you know what ???
Pokidad is RIGHT !!! ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif)
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
POKEMON TEAM BELGIUM
BattleZone BRUSSELS - Belgium loves Pokemon too ! ! !
From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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RULEMASTER
Member # 99791
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posted December 05, 2002 04:26 PM
Good posts by everybody. The want for 15+ will never go away as long as Wizards still makes Pokemon, as most of us have found out. Pokidad was right when he said there really wasn't any inspiration to play the game without competition. I stopped playing the game for a while after the Toys R Us league I went to started diminishing. But I started right back up when I found a league near me with a handful of decent opponents. A 15+ side event at all of the SC events would be great, even if it is just a side event. The competition would still be fierce, and thats what most of us are looking for. We may not win trips or huge prizes, but at least let us play in an official tournament. I think Wizards needed the Pokemon Professor program to make competitive Pokemon last, and keep older people in the game. There should be an incentive for Professors helping out at the SC's instead of playing, if 15+ actually came back, like some tourney for a trip to worlds or something(I don't know what would work, just trying to come up with ideas). I'll post again soon if something pops into my head. ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif)
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www.pojo.com/pokemon.html
My favorite band is Unwritten Law
I also like Pennywise.
PLAY POKEMON!
Member of the Poke-gym card review team! www.Poke-gym.com
Tournaments:
4th Place Niles, IL SBZ 2-15-03
Constructed: 1723
Limited: 1557
From: Wisconsin | Registered: Aug 2002
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Slim
Member
Member # 101800
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posted December 06, 2002 06:29 AM
mmm, I want the 15+ division coming back like everybody but i'm sure that wizards thonk think the same. I think that 15+ will NEVER back, but i'll like it coming back, of course...
Have a nice day
Cya all!
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'cause it feels so empty, without me...
From: Cadiz, Spain | Registered: Aug 2002
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roaring pheonix
Member
Member # 114201
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posted December 06, 2002 07:04 PM
realy if you ask me whats the point for the rest of us out here that are fifteen and cant become profs. (stupid test) what are we supposed to do. I meen what happened to the professors test id like to take ive studied for months now. But for some reason right as i go to take it it is not working. It would be cool if it there were to be a 15+ (and lizard i believe you hole heartedly ) but i just dont think it will happen.
laters guys,
![[Turkey]](../tcg/graemlins/turkey.gif) pheonix
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Former member name: Zapdoskid2k2 (lost password)
Proffesor to be (whats with the test!!!????)
Proud fan of DBZ
Call me dark, mwahahahahaha
From: Indianapolis, Indiana | Registered: Nov 2002
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Golduck
Member # 523
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posted December 07, 2002 02:53 AM
Yes, the "family part" has disappeared. In 2001, when Europe still had 15+ Qualifiers, I and my two sisters (age 7 and 9 back then) and Super Psyduck and his brother (10) were able to play at the same STS Qualifier in Sweden.
I remember how much fun it was to meet each other between rounds: we met up 7, 9, 10, 14 and 15 year old and told each other about our matches and our wins/losses. I and my sisters prepared weeks in advance, for the same format, same event, same dream to win a Qualifier.
This year, Super Psyduck and I had to travel all the way to Amsterdam to play in the Professor event there, and it was impossible to take our brother/sisters with us all the way to The Netherlands. The Professor tournament was held after the 14- tournament was finished - not side by side.
Would it have been possible to continue the same way we did in 2001? Yes. But has it become harder? Yes! It has become harder for families to travel to a tournament everyone can enjoy, though it is still possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Pokidad:
Family game. Right on. Who won't have been prouder that Jerome seeing his Dad, Jean-Marc, taking first place at the WCSTS 2001? My kids seeing me placing in the top 4 at WCSTS 2001 along side of them on stage at that event.
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From: Norway, in front of a Mac, designing the new TE homepage | Registered: Feb 2001
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