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Topic: Propositions for the next Gym Stadiums and Gym Challenges

Michel

Member # 286

posted November 07, 2002 05:16 PM

Before I start, I want to say that the figures mentioned in this post concern the European rated Gym Challenges and Gym Stadium 2002 (13 GC and 1 GS).
I don’t think things are different in the USA anyway.

So, what have we seen during the 2002 Gym Challenges and Stadiums in Europe ?
Two age groups : under 10 and 11-14. The 15+ has been replaced by a Professor event in Amsterdam.

So, 2 age groups with a total of 325 players and 15 qualified in the 10 and under group, and a total of 742 players and 17 qualified in the 11-14 group.

Here’s my first proposition :
to adapt the amount of qualified players to the amount of players in each category.

70 % of the players were in the 11-14 group … with only 2 more qualified than the 10 and under.
Another way to look at these figures : more than twice the amount of the 10 – players have played the GC/GS in the 11-14 group, for 2 more tickets to Worlds only.

The other point I’ve seen is the age of the qualified in the 11-14 group.
If you exclude the players who have been qualified in the 10 and under division but played in the 11-14 in Seattle, most of the players were 13+.

I’ve already talked about it with MTM, and he told me that the difference between an 11 and a 14 years old kid was the same as between a 7 and a 10 years old kid.
Mathematically correct … but I believe that, in reality, things are different for two reasons.

First Pokemon players do not start tournaments at competitive level before 8 ½ or 9, and the difference with a 10 years old kid is far less important.

Second, when a kid leaves the 10 and under age group, he has to play with players who have more experience, who are more mature (very important at that age) and so have really more chances to have good results in big events.

I have seen, in the different qualifiers in Europe, for the STS 2001 or Worlds 2002, a gap in the 11-14 group.
Not many players between 11 and 13 play these tournaments. But I’ve seen kids of 11 leaving the game at competitive level because they had really less chance against older players in big tournaments.

And here’s my second proposition :
to add a third age group in order to have : 10 and under, 11-12 and 13-14.

This has been done in San Diego (STS) and I think the 11-12 group was the less competitive. I believe that the main reason is that no qualification was required for the STS. The players in that category had not to be qualified neither the 11-14 group, nor in their specific age group. I’m sure that if they had their own group at the GC and GS, the qualified players would be really more competitive and that division could be really great.

I think competitive players, players who have good results in big events, are positive examples for all the other players and for the game. Kids like Jerome Schosse (3 STS and 1 TMB) or my daughter (2 STS, 1 World and 1 TMB) have motivated a lot of kids in Belgium, and probably in other European countries.
New players have thought ‘it’s possible’, the amount of new players and the general level of play has increased in the country.

Leaving such a gap open in the 11-14 category is, in my opinion, quite dangerous for the game. If players do stop, they’ll probably never come back, and they can take some of their friends out of the game too.
On the contrary, if they have the opportunity, with their friends, to make good results in big tournaments, the motivation for all the players will be increased.

How to put the two propositions together ?

These two propositions may be read separately, or they may be linked.

If we take the 2002 European figures, we see that 14 DCI reported tournaments have qualified 32 players. 13 Challenges with 1 qualified in each category, and 1 Stadium with 2 qualified in 10 and under and 4 in 11-14.

If we use the same ‘tickets’ with 3 age divisions, we would have 3 qualified for each Challenge, and 8 for the Stadium for a total of 47 players,
That amount could be reduced to 45 if the first two players of each category are qualified at the Stadium.
That would give 15 qualified in each category, or compared to the previous situation, 15 in the 10 and under, and 30 in the 11-14 which is closer to the rate of the participants in each age group.

I already hear ‘you always want more’, ‘you’re always complaining’, … [Wink]

Please don’t see it that way. I’m not complaining, I don’t want anything or don’t ask anything, I simply make propositions.

I hear ‘budget restrictions’ too. [Wink]

OK, sending 45 players to Seattle is more expensive than 32. But I see it as an investment on kids who will probably stay in the game until they’re 15 (and maybe longer), who will have an extra motivation, who will bring other kids in the game.

WotC offices or European local distributors would have to make a more important financial effort, but I believe that the financial return would surely compensate that effort.

Another solution could be to ask a small participation fee (for example 5 USD/Euro) at the Gym Stadiums and Challenges. All the players receive material for more than that amount anyway, and these fees could cover a part of the extra trips.

Once again, these figures are linked to the European 2002 Gyms, but I’m sure that the US situation is quite the same.

What do you think about it ?

--------------------
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Golduck

Member # 523

posted November 08, 2002 12:16 AM

It's such a great idea, Michel, but it will cost too much. 3 age groups Qualifying was too expensive in the "glory days of 15+", and the budget is too narrow for 2 groups now. Adding a third one again won't work.

A better solution IMO would be to have 11- and 12-14. Most players in 10- are 8, 9 or 10, so adding 11 years old (which really aren't more mature) would work. 12-14 is only 3 years, yes, but the most players are here.

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ukpokemonpro

Member # 518

posted November 08, 2002 02:36 AM

Well I think it is a great idea and would encourage players to step up their game as they get older.

But will there be the budget?

--------------------
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"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"

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From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

Michel

Member # 286

posted November 08, 2002 04:04 AM

Budget

I'm maybe always too optimistic, but I believe that if the people who take the decision find that an idea is good, they will find the budget.

BattleZone, Professor Program, ... are expensive too, and the budgets have been found.

Ideas about 'how to find money' are welcome too. My idea of a participation fee is certainly not the only one that could be used.

--------------------
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Golduck

Member # 523

posted November 08, 2002 02:11 PM

I have an idea how Wizards could make money. Expensiver boosters! Less promos on League! Drop sets faster from Modified!

/doges rotten tomatoes

[Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Michel:
Ideas about 'how to find money' are welcome too. My idea of a participation fee is certainly not the only one that could be used.

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Michel

Member # 286

posted November 10, 2002 11:10 AM

No ideas from the USA ? [Razz]

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jean-marc
Member
Member # 114075

posted November 13, 2002 11:02 PM

great idea

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Golduck

Member # 523

posted November 14, 2002 12:44 AM

Hello Jean-Marc, great to see you on the boards (I'm Eskil, in case you didn't knew [Wink]

)

But this topic still seems to magically attract us European players only, with US players staying away. [Confused]

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ukpokemonpro

Member # 518

posted November 14, 2002 05:29 AM

Michel,

maybe there will come a point when Pokemon tourneys pay for themselves completely .. in the meantime I see no reason why experiments with paying an entrance fee cannot be done.

I charge an entrance fee for my tournies so that I can get some of my outlay back perhaps all should pay something. As MTM said giving them something for nothing gets them into bad habits!

[ November 14, 2002, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: ukpokemonpro ]

--------------------
ukpokemonpro

"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"

"London Super Battlezone 2003"
quote the judge...

'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!

14,000 deck boxes yeah we'll take all of them .... what have I done!

Find the Pokemon League and Tournaments in Kent at:The Gamers Guild

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Hairy Clefairy

Member # 108416

posted November 14, 2002 08:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jean-marc:
great idea

Salut Jean-Marc!!! C'est Freddy-K [Bounce]

-fK

--------------------
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From: England UK | Pokémon League - Burger King, High St, Slough Sundays 10am-2pm | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged

Hairy Clefairy

Member # 108416

posted November 14, 2002 08:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ukpokemonpro:
Michel,

maybe there will come a point when Pokemon tourneys pay for themselves completely .. in the meantime I see no reason why experiments with paying an entrance fee cannot be done.

I charge an entrance fee for my tournies so that I can get some of my outlay back perhaps all should pay something. As MTM said giving them something for nothing gets them into bad habits!

Hmmm yers kebabs NOT included in the entrance fees... [Roll Eyes]

From: England UK | Pokémon League - Burger King, High St, Slough Sundays 10am-2pm | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged

SteveP

Member # 14743

posted November 14, 2002 09:08 AM

OK, here's a comment from me in the US.

When WOTC announced the 11-12 age group for the San Diego STS, I thought it was a magnificent idea; so much so that I thought it would become the norm at major WOTC-run tournaments. I was a bit surprised when there was not an 11-12 year old category at Worlds.

Let me add another reason why having an 11-12 year old group is good. The 2002 Tropical Mega Battle. Here was an event that many 13-14 year olds spent much of the previous year winning tournaments in hopes of getting invited. Then, TPC did the unthinkable; they dropped the age cutoff to 12 years old. [Confused]

It became very apparent that the Japanese felt most 13-14 year olds would easily beat the younger players.

I like this idea so much that I wish I could use it for my local Age-modified Pokemon tournaments. However, I'm fearful that if a create a new age category myself, I might be ignoring the DCI guidelines for Age-modified. FYI, the DCI Reporter software says to use 3 age categories (10-, 11-14, 15+) when selecting the Age-modified option.

Also, I TOTALLY agree with your rebutal to MTM that the difference between a 7 and 10 year old is the same as the difference between an 11 and 14 year old. I guess MTM doesn't have children. He hasn't seen the effect that harmones have when a kid is around 12-13 years old. Believe me MTM, there's a BIG difference after that happens!

So, the proposition is good. The only issue left is the proposition's feasibility. On that issue, we'll have to hear from WOTC before we can really comment any further. Afterall, they're the ones who first used this age category, then dropped it for some reason (probably because of a feasibility issue).

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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Murkrow
Member
Member # 112614

posted November 14, 2002 09:27 AM

I think we must play with 15+ Group and 14- Categorie!
The most palyers are 13-15.And very much players are +15 and onlay a little bitt is -10!
And for the Tournaments GC's 2 Persons can Invited 4 Worlds.
Not more Professor Programm [Razz]

because 15+is either good!
I hope we play witzh 15+ and not with 10- [Angel]

My English is bad!
Sorry
CU
Murkrow
[Crowd]

--------------------
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PokePop

Member # 8

posted November 14, 2002 09:28 AM

Don't use the Prof program to show that budget is not an issue. The Prof program probably is a wash or even a money saver for WotC when you take into account what they used to have to pay DSL to run the premiere events.

That aside, I agree with you that there is a big difference between an 11 year old and a 14 year old.

Maybe they could run 11-, 12-14, 15-17. How's that sound? Get some 15+ squeezed in there!

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ukpokemonpro

Member # 518

posted November 14, 2002 01:18 PM

quote:
yers kebabs NOT included in the entrance fees

Freddy it clearly states on my invisble invite here that Kebabs are not included.... it also goes on to state..

"A £12 Kebab surcharge can be added at ukpro's whim to help feed the upkeep of his hairy snorlax like body." Extra chillies are of course mandatory.

PokePop,

I like the 15-17 idea, personally I would like to see a "Lab Tech" level in the Professor Challenges to cater for this..

That way the young bucks could off and play and us oldies who spend too long TOing to get a good deck together could have a chance of winning something [Evil Smirk]

--------------------
ukpokemonpro

"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"

"London Super Battlezone 2003"
quote the judge...

'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!

14,000 deck boxes yeah we'll take all of them .... what have I done!

Find the Pokemon League and Tournaments in Kent at:The Gamers Guild

From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

Pokidad

Member # 135

posted November 14, 2002 03:16 PM

Jean-Marc welcome to the boards. Boy, that was a great time in Hawaii with all the Belgium players. Sure you don't want to trade your STS Jacket for one or two of Jonathan's. ROFLOL [ROFL]

Michel: USA response. I have to carefully consider this proposal since I might have some self interest (i.e., more opportunities to getting trips to Worlds). I was surprize at the WCSTS 2001 when WotC split the 11-14 age group into two groups, about 200 kids in both groups. For us, all three boys didn't have to worry about playing their brothers [Roll Eyes]

which was great. It also allowed each of them an opportunity to walk away with the top trophy within their respective age groups. What more could you ask for.

So, yes, I do think there is a difference between these ages and one and sometimes even two years makes a big difference when competing (maturity level, level of competition, etc.). This is probably more so with the ten and under group. Again, I feel I might be serving my own self interest since spliting Jonathan and Tim would allow two, instead of one, opportunities to win trips from one Challenge or Stadium event. I'm torn on this issue.

From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

Michel

Member # 286

posted November 14, 2002 06:33 PM

First, ... welcome to the boards to the last 15+ STS winner [Angel]

Thanks for your replies ...

Ukpokemonpro ... all the TO (except one) in Belgium charge an entrance fee between 5 and 10 Euro/USD to cover the charges and prices... and I do agree about the 'bad habits'

Freddy : kebabs ? Nooooo ... french fries !

SteveP : you're right about the TMB. And yes, we have to hear the MT's opinion about the subject.

Pokepop : you're right about the Prof program, but what I wanted to say is that WotC has invested money in a Program and they were not sure it would be as successful as it is. They've taken a risk anyway.
I like your proposition too ... other way to split the 11-14 and an interesting alternative for 15-17 [Wink]

Pokidad ... before I forget, Jean Marc needs your address ... he has pics of Hawaii for you !
I haven't realized, when I've written the first post, that the Brooks family could win 3 titles in Seattle if the proposition is approved [Eek!]

Seriously, I think that splitting the 11-14 group could give the opportunity to more players between 11 and 13 to go to Worlds. Like I said, we have to keep them, or bring them, in the game, and that could be a very good motivation for the players of that age.

I've talked with the MT's last week and they told me that in Seattle next year, all the players who have won an STS or a Worlds will play without trainers and with a maximum of 5 energies. That's what they call 'the Sneasel's box format' [ROFL]

[ November 14, 2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Michel ]

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RaNd0m

Member # 73173

posted November 15, 2002 06:03 PM

Have two divisions.

12-
13+

It makes sense and cuts back on costs of adding a 15+ division.

~ RaNd0m

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Hairy Clefairy

Member # 108416

posted November 15, 2002 06:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RaNd0m:
Have two divisions.

12-
13+

It makes sense and cuts back on costs of adding a 15+ division.

~ RaNd0m

RaNd0m that makes so much sense and would welcome back the 15+ with open arms... I just think though they may never allow older people to competitively play again like they did at the last STS =| but it would be fairer especially for us 'oldies'... I'm in my mid-20s now and wish Pokémon came about much earlier than it did for me [Smile]

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Hairy Clefairy

Member # 108416

posted November 15, 2002 07:14 PM

quote:
Ideas about 'how to find money' are welcome too. My idea of a participation fee is certainly not the only one that could be used.

For Europe?

- first update the league locations, then advertise the Challenges through the leagues and the TOs/Professors. The people who'll need to know will then be aware of the tournaments a whole lot more quicker.

- ensure that WotC product is for sure sold at the Challenges. So many boosters are bought that day it's unbelievable. People tear through boxes looking for an Entei for their decks...

- filter Gym Challenge winners to the European Stadium Challenge and give them byes for their wins. Top 4 in the Stadium Challenges should win the trips. It'll raise the profile of the European Challenge, and also cost less to ship players across Europe especially with budget airline deals. Marion for instance is flying to Strasbourg this year from London for £0.01 !

- Charge for the Prof tournament - we can afford it.

- side events should be organised like they were in Seattle, the events organisers can make a buck doing side events from Theme Deck Challenges etc. all day and this will help with the offset of other expenses.

- allow Nintendo to have a stand at the Challenges, like in Gothenburg for instance at the Sweden STSQ in 2001. Sell them a pitch at the event for pods of Gamecubes, a games stand, etc. Mums and dads will be around and could be persuaded to buy little Johnny (or petit Jean-Marc) that Gamecube they've wanted for so long.

Lots more, but I'm not paid for ideas by WotC [Wink]

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bulbasnore

Member # 703

posted November 16, 2002 02:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Michel:
No ideas from the USA ?

No, sorry. We don't take kindly to ideas here. [Embarrassed]

Opinions however are allowed, and protected by law [Wink]

Here's mine:

10- as a category leaves a lot to be desired in numbers:
-Read the packs, this product is for 10+, not 10-
-The San Diego SC had exactly 18 players in 10- (pitiful) and around 140 of the 11-14; if that's typical 10- premier OP is down. The WCSTS (RIP) last had about 50 10- both days (? I wish WOTC had left those websites with the results online. It would make research easier).

I think 11- and 12-14 is better. This makes for more even numbers and supports the number of relative 'qualifications' for higher competition better.

(and I think that any SC will draw more people if it is a 2 day event rather than 1 as you get more value from a 2 day event, justifying a longer trip. This may be different in civilized countries, but we do a lot of this kind of travel by automobile here in the US and a one day event just doesn't justify two days of driving for many people. I could also argue to have the West Coast event in L.A. [sheer size and closer to S.F.] or Anaheim [Disneyland for combined trip] to increase numbers, rather than beautiful S.D. However, all this opinion is off your topic).

If you don't report me as having an idea, I'll venture my real thought:
11-
12-14
15-17

Because of competition & the 'you are not an adult until 18, so you can't _________ for WOTC' I think this would be best. Let the Profs be us over 18 crowd (or let the 15-17 choose which they want to sign up for Prof or premier OP).

I do read all the TE postings, but haven't been as chatty about them lately. You goaded me out into the open this time.

Cheers,
'snore

[ November 16, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: bulbasnore ]

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bulbasnore

Member # 703

posted November 16, 2002 02:59 AM

quote:
Originally posted by PokePop:
Maybe they could run 11-, 12-14, 15-17. How's that sound? Get some 15+ squeezed in there!

'spose I really should read all the posts before I reply, but Michel really got me out there with his 'US' comment [Wink]

and I 'jumped the gun' (that's a track and field reference, or athletics as perhaps our European colleagues would say, not a National Rifle Association reference) -- you had already posted the same idea, er, opinion on age groups as I posted later. Well, I agree with you.

What do you think about 2 day vs. 1 day regional events (like SCs or STSs [RIP])? Do you prefer one over the other? Is one better for OP numbers?

--------------------
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Golduck

Member # 523

posted November 16, 2002 03:16 AM

12-, 13-17 and 18+ would make sense. 18+ could be the Professor Program.

Because it isn't easy being a Professor under 18, due to the fact that you can't be a TO and you can't start a BattleZone. When I won the Professor Challenge, 15 years old, Wizards Europe wanted to send me alone to the US, without a Guardian! "Professors don't get guardians" they told me. Until we found out that for legal reasons, a child under 18 must have a guardian.

We could have just as many trips for 12- as we had for 10-. Ten and under is a too small group anyway. I've seen reports from Gym Challenges which had 8 10- players and about 60 11-14! [Eek!]

And a 12 year old is very similar to a 8-10 year old. A child first becomes a teenager when he or she is 13. And roughly, he/she stays a teenager until 17.

My 8-year old sister has won League tournaments by beating 12 year olds. They are at the same level of skill, and the same level in their mind. They are children.

The child group (0-12), the teenager group (13-17) and the adult/Professor group (18+).

We could have 1 trip for 12- and one for 13-17 at every Gym Challenge. Then we could have Professor Challenges for 18+, but with more trips than this year. 4 Professor trips in Europe and 8 in the US would be better.

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dutchpokemaniac
Member
Member # 87158

posted November 17, 2002 03:43 AM

But when will now the official release of the gym/stadium challenges in Europe come? Wizards set they came early in october, now it's allready late in November O_o.

@jean-marc: Welcome, here Jori Ramakers [Wink]

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SD_PokeMom

Member # 97

posted November 17, 2002 08:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bulbasnore:
...snip...The WCSTS (RIP) last had about 50 10- both days (? I wish WOTC had left those websites with the results online. It would make research easier).

I saved the -10 and 15+ standings for the WCSTS; there were just over 100 -10s and just over 200 15+ in the main events last December.

Hope this helps...

'Mom

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