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Author
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Topic: 30 Minutes: Just not enough time?
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Darkask2
Member
Member # 30668
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posted February 16, 2003 06:49 AM
At my SBZ, there was a problem I would like to address. Not a problem with the judgeing or rounds, but with the time limits. Out of 7 matches, three of mine went to the time limit, and I know I wasn't the only one. Several of the other players were talking about having 2 point and one point games as well. In Modified, I think more time is needed for the rounds. Why?
Shuffling.
In every competative Modified deck, a great number of the cards used require a deck shuffle after use. Elm, Cleffa, Copycat, Pokemon Fan Club, they all require a shuffle. In my experience, a good shuffle takes a minimum of 20 seconds, unless you can do some of the fancier shuffles that are near-impossible with sleeved cards. In most games I watched, the early game was dominated by shuffles. At least once every 2 turns in the early game, a shuffle card was used. Even in the middle and late games,a shuffle card was used on a semi-regular basis. With both players decks having a high amount of these cards, shuffling wastes a good portion of the game. I think a little more time needs to be alloted for good shuffles. Even an extra 5 minutes a round would greatly help in giving more time for gameplay. What do you think? Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated.
[ February 16, 2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: Darkask2 ]
From: Altamont NY | Registered: Jul 2001
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted February 16, 2003 07:04 AM
Had a player who looked blankly at his hand for about thirty seconds, attached an energy, then continued to look blankly at his hand, then used a Bill, the continued to look blankly at his hand of now two cards, and then attacked. His turn took up nearly two to three minutes. I almost called for stalling when he was winning, but ended up gaining the judicated victory.
-Phil
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From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted February 16, 2003 08:10 AM
Give players more time, MORE time for them to use.
It would NOT be used efficiently.
GIve 'em LESS time.
I think you are allowed 1 minute MAX for shufling during the match.
SO MANY GAMES (15+) did end at the time limit... so many ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif)
*nope, just REALLY good matches*
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted February 16, 2003 08:15 AM
From the DCI UTR:
quote:
24. Midgame Shuffling Time Limit
A reasonable time limit will be allowed for all shuffling and deck-searching that occurs during a game. In general, most simple searches should be allowed thirty seconds, but more complicated searches may be allowed more time at the judge’s discretion.
If a judge determines that a player’s shuffling time is excessive, that player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines. Shuffling requirements specified in section 21 apply.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Toys'R'Us Kid
Member # 19105
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posted February 16, 2003 08:52 AM
yeah, i fell to this 30 minute thing.
Right before he says he passes, which i then win the game. Time is up >_<!!. Which really messed up my Top 8 Ranking.
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~tRuK
AIM: IsolationistX04
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From: The 7-Up Commerical | Registered: May 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted February 16, 2003 09:12 AM
I saw one instance in the early rounds where a player was winning by one prize, but had totally lost board control. The opponent was clearly in a position to win easily. A four minute warning was announced. The player who was ahead proceeded to:
1) Look through the discard pile...
*30 seconds*
2) Look through the hand...
*30 seconds*
3) Play Forest Guardian, and shuffle...
*30 seconds*
4) Look through the top 7 cards...
*30 seconds*
5) Take one card, and shuffle...
*30 seconds*
6) Pretend to agonize over which Pokémon to attach a Gold Berry, then an energy, then a Focus Band to...
*30 seconds*
7) Play an Elm, shuffle, draw...
*30 seconds*
8) Ask to read one of my cards, and agonize over which Pokémon to retreat for...
*30 seconds*
Time was then called, and the player proceeded to complain to freinds about how he got "screwed over with a 2 point win."
I was the opponent. I took a 2 point loss, which put me in 9th place for the tournament.
30 Minutes is plenty of time if your strategy is to get ahead by one prize and then legally stall... 
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted February 16, 2003 09:59 AM
IMO, there are two solutions to this (only for 1-game matches):
1. turn time limits
2. 5-turn extension when time is called
Personally, I don't like turn time limits because without chess-like timers, it would be impossible to enforce.
The 5-turn extension would be very easy but would definately impact how long the rounds last.
BTW, there are many legal ways to draw out your turn. Without turn time limits, playing all your trainers and using your Pokemon Powers is TOTALLY legal under the current rules.
I would totally love the equivalent of a "shot clock" for Pokemon, but I'm not sure it's feasible. Maybe if we reduce the games to 25 minutes and institute the 5-turn extension, sneaky slowplay and stalling would become less of an issue.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pscyther
Member
Member # 126758
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posted February 16, 2003 10:01 AM
I have to agree, LizardOTC.
I think that the purpose of the game is kinda messed up by the time limit. The night before SBZ, me and my friend were playtesting and I pulled a little comeback victory well over the 30 minute mark. That would never happen in official play because first of all, there's barely enough time to win normally (most wins I saw were benches), and second, too many people will stall.
The official penalties really don't matter if your opponent is smart. And unless the strategy of this game is to get out to an early lead the first 15 minutes and then stall (rather than to win by prizes or bench), there's a small problem here.
Thankfully this only happened to me once, but I had no chance of winning a prize. I feel sorry for those who barely missed the top 8 because of this.
The solution is difficult because obviously the matches can't take forever and they must all end at the same time. But any additional time combined with a willingness of the winning player to play at a reasonable rate, would help a lot. It's also a good thing that a win by time is 2 points rather than 3.
[ February 16, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Pscyther ]
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There's nothing quite like 4 heads on a Fury Cutter 8)
From: Maryland, USA, Terra | Registered: Feb 2003
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Raikou1234
Member
Member # 3003
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posted February 16, 2003 12:11 PM
I know some people that take their time looking at what they can do...People take it slower then others, I know one person who was called on time nearly every one of his games, not for stalling, but thinking about what he can do....
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From: Somewhere | Registered: Mar 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted February 16, 2003 02:56 PM
Lizard,
YOU DID NOT call a judge?
At the SBZ I could not believe how 2 ADULTS, 2 ADULTS got into a I AM RIGHT HE is WRONG arguement...
AND then at the END of TIME limit, one player begins to stall. THE OPPONENT who was already fed up called out for a judge and sure enough this player THOUGHT he could waste his time to get his opponent a 2 pt win.
I WARNED the opponent and timed his turn to 30 seconds (less than 3 minutes was left)... sure enough his turns lasted 5 seconds???
It could be construed as UNsportsmanlike conduct if it is taken to an extreme... don't tolerate this.
[ February 16, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
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SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Johnny Blaze
Member # 234
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posted February 16, 2003 05:37 PM
This is difficult to assess. I did not have any problems with this and we attended the same SBZ, Steve. I won 5 of my matches in the 30 minute time limit getting the full 15 points. All I can think of is that if your deck does not have enough "firepower" for the k'o's. then more than likely you will go the time limit. In preparing for 30 minute tournamnets it is a real good idea to use a deck that can inflict 40+ damage once its up and running. This will insure enough k.o.'s in the recommended time limits.
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Johnny Blaze at the 2000 ECSTS
MTM vs. Johnny Blaze at the MBI2
From: Clifton Park, N.Y. | Registered: Feb 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted February 16, 2003 08:54 PM
IMHO, modified is a much slower moving positional game--which probably does require more than 30 minutes. This is especially true for the adults among us.
Last spring, Crobat2 (then 10) and I played in a tournament in Milford in which we used exactly the same decks--the only time that we ever did that. We played Crobat--hence our Wizpog name.
He finished every single match within the time limit. None of my matches (except those in which one Pokemon was knocked out for the win) ended within the time limit.
I think the 15+ crowd needs a 45 minute limit. Just my opinion.
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted February 16, 2003 09:46 PM
Actually, time is a limit resource, especially in 1-day tournament.
I am not a TO but do help to prepare the SBZ in Toronto.
For a 6 rounds Swiss and Final 8 Single Elimination tournament, here is a schedule.
8:30-9:00 Set up (could be done in previous day)
9:00-10:00 registration
10:00-10:15 round 1 prepare
10:15-10:45 round 1
10:45-11:00 round 2 prepare
11:00-11:30 round 2
11:30-11:45 round 3 prepare
11:45-12:15 round 3
12:15-12:30 round 4 prepare
12:30-1:00 round 4
1:00-1:30 Lunch break and round 5 prepare
1:30-2:00 round 5
2:00-2:15 round 6 prepare
2:15-2:45 round 6
2:45-3:00 Final 8 prepare
3:00-3:30 Final 8
3:30-4:00 Semi-Final
4:00-4:30 Final
4:30-5:00 Clean up
There is a total of 18 steps in the tournament. Even 5 minutes extra per step, there will 1 hour and 30 minutes extra.
As you can see, if the time limit extend to 45min per round, the tournament will be end at 7:15. If 5 turns extra, even 1 minutes per round could require 10 more minutes (5 rounds per player?). Do people what to have dinner in tournament?
You have to know that at least half of the Pokemon players are 14-. Good number of them are 10-. Let most of them spent 6 hours (major of players could leave at 3:00) in the playground are already a test for them.
So in the Tournament Organizer's point of view, 30 minutes limit is essential and should be enforce.
When you design a deck for used in tournament, you have to take account the 30 minutes limit. It is why almost no one play pure Stall Deck in tournament, even in the pre-Modified Age.
We should view the 30 minutes limit as a test on the players. A good player should be about to handle everyting.
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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DaytonGymLeader
Member # 2615
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posted February 16, 2003 11:33 PM
Yes, there are "legal" methods for stalling. However, there is no such thing as "legal" stalling. Any judge that is worth their salt can see these methods in play and take the appropriate corrective action. 30 minutes is PLENTY of time.
DOMCGI's timeline is a pretty good straw model for tournament organizers. If you had a dedicated scorer, you can cut round prep down to 5 minutes.
I thought about last minute stalls when juding this weekend at Delaware. I'll relay a rather amusing story about it later, I'm still working on a writeup (with pictures!). I was giving time calls at 15, 5, and 1 minute. Halfway through, I stopped giving time calls at 1 minute. MOST of my potential stallers were then clueless. I've changed my time calls now on a permanent basis. 20 and 10 minutes is all you're going to get out loud if I am judging unless you ask specifically for the time remaining. I also bet that I won't have as many questionable stalling calls.
If you think that someone is stalling, call a judge. We're not there to look pretty and just post pairings.
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Books-A-Million 307
Dayton, Ohio
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From: Dayton, Ohio, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted February 17, 2003 05:42 AM
We have analyzed this before based on WotC data from the past STSs using the 30 minutes time clock. Most players (I think it was over 90%) completed their game with into 30 minutes (3 points). About 7% of the players got 2 points, and a few ended in a draw (1 point). So there was about 10% of the players that could not compete their games within 30 minutes. Sometimes it is the player, sometimes it is the decks they used, or sometimes it is two excellent competitive players (reason for allowing no time limit in the 2 positions). So, I really don't see this as a major problem (please don't shoot me, if someone wants to go back a year or more and dig out that tread, please do so).
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted February 17, 2003 06:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Pscyther:
The night before SBZ, me and my friend were playtesting and I pulled a little comeback victory well over the 30 minute mark. That would never happen in official play because first of all, there's barely enough time to win normally (most wins I saw were benches), and second, too many people will stall.
I was dropped in the finals yesterday for this very reason. I was energy screwed in the beginning, my opponent was slowly picking off babies, he concentrated his energy on two Poliwraths (the deck that SuperSpyMewTwo alluded to). In the last 4 minutes I got my Exp Feraligatr powered, started powering up #2 and took out both of the Polywraths. His bench was virtually defenseless and I feel that given even 5 more minutes I would have won. Bitter? Nope. He won by the rules - we have to learn to leave shoulda-woulda-coulda by the wayside if we want to be better players and really enjoy the game. I was happy for the guy - he played his butt off, had a neat deck and he won. End of story.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted February 17, 2003 07:32 AM
I agree with DaytonGymLeader that using Reporter greatly reduce the bewteen round preparation. We use a dedicated scorer to enter result. Record the match result right after each match finish (most of them finish before time up). Right after all the matches finish, we print 3 pairing list within a minute by laser printer and tape them on the wall. We still take about 10 to 15 minutes for each between round.
The most time consumming is not using reporter to enter result and print the pairing lists, it is the 64 players checking the pairing list, and sit to the correct table. Also, some time extension from the previous round cause longer preparation time.
Planning 15 minutes for between round preparation is reasonable on a 64 players tournament.
As you see, in the Top 8, there is basically no Preparation time to be planned because there is only 8 players. We still enforce 30 minutes limit on the Top 8 matches, except the Final match get unlimited time.
As Pokidad say, most players finish their match before 30 minutes. We have 32 matches each round, and only about 3 to 4 pairs cannot finish the match when time up.
I personally believe 30 minutes limit is reasonable.
For big event, it is better to put a big clock or timer on the wall to show the time. I hope we can have one in the past SBZ.
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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SomeGuy
Member # 17465
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posted February 17, 2003 08:10 AM
GymLeaderPhil: By any chance was that during your first round?
If so, that's the guy that came with me. He hasn't played pokemon since Neo 1, and wasn't even planning on entering (He ended up making T16/50). Also to make it worse, he's dyslexic.
It took him a couple rounds to get used to the deck (Exp. Vileplume).
From: Gainesville-Florida-USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted February 17, 2003 08:22 AM
umm, just because more than 90% of games are completed within time doesn't mean we can ignore the rest. The 5-turn game extension solves late-game stalling issues. By shortening the time to 25-minutes and having the 5-turn extension, I doubt there will be any impact on how long rounds will last. JMO.
IMO, the biggest problem I see with timed games is that some players purposely concede when time is called in order to help their opponent get 3 points instead of 2. While I don't think we should do away with concessions, I DO think that concessions that happen within the last 3 minutes of a match should be given 2-point victories. IMO, players who concede in the final minute just because they want to be nice, well, that defeats the whole purpose of the 2-point scoring system.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted February 17, 2003 11:24 AM
30 minutes works. It has been tried and tested for 4 years. Stalling or slow play is something you should call a judge over for. It is something that can be dealt with.
Conceding a match when you will lose on cards is just good sportsmanship in my opinion. It is not often done. Having judged 100's of tournaments it is almost always the best and most gracious players that do it. Those who know they have been outplayed.
DMTM
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From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lacy
Member # 43928
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posted February 17, 2003 12:22 PM
This isn't usually a huge problem for me, but I'd like to post my two cents anyway.
I've had times when I play that one game takes longer than 30 minutes. (At least, this is the case with some decks I have played.) To me, 30 minutes isn't really enough in some cases. Some wins happen quickly, often with the faster decks like Entei/Cargo, and with only 30 minutes other decks have no time to collect themselves and bounce back which *is* possible in some instances. If I know I'm going to lose, I will usually just concede to my opponent, and there are times when it's clear you're beaten. There are other times when you still have a chance, the 30 minute time frame doesn't really address those times when it is possible or likely you could still come from behind and win.
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From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sep 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted February 17, 2003 12:37 PM
Well, there was a tournament back in Dec. Where I missed T8 becuase I got a 2-point instead of a 3-point win. I actually had recovered from a bad start combined with a silly mistake that got me a time slot. But it was my fault really, as I forgot Muk stopped playful punch. Maybe that made things different. Just offering something up for discussion. Oh, and that was a 25-minute round.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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smoochum
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Member # 127858
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posted February 17, 2003 12:52 PM
mmm, i think 30 mins is PLENTY of time. I finished all of my games in that time, or almost most of them. Its the perfect amount of time if both players play by the rules. Thats all there is to it. Now an hour for 3 games...thats a different story. especially if you think 30 minutes is the just amount of time for ONE game. I wont even go there though. I have to say thou, i barely see any problems with the half an hour time period, the judges even let all the players know when there is only 15 minutes left, then 10, then 5, so all the players know to speed game play up if needed. This is jsut my Oppinion.
-Eric Brooks
From: falls Church, Va | Registered: Feb 2003
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Darkask2
Member
Member # 30668
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posted February 17, 2003 12:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
30 minutes works. It has been tried and tested for 4 years.
Yes, but that was with unlimited, not modified. With Unlimited, there is a lot less shuffling. (Oak, anyone?) I think that the idea of having 5 turns after time is called would be a great aid.
quote:
Stalling or slow play is something you should call a judge over for. It is something that can be dealt with.
Yes, if they are doing something against the rules. But if they are doing something allowed by the rules, like shuffling for up to 30 seconds, what can a judge do? With the 5 turn rule, there would be almost no use for stalling.
From: Altamont NY | Registered: Jul 2001
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