|
Author
|
Topic: Champions: A Breakthrough or a Bust?
|
Skywolf1
Member # 1448
|
posted April 08, 2002 09:12 AM
There has been much speculation about the upcoming next set for the Pokemon TCG. Like any of the previous expansions that have been released, I am excited about getting some "new blood" into the game.
But with all the speculation, is this set a wise business move on the part of WotC, or could this set be a mistake, working on the assumpion that the cards introduced are going to be mere reprints of older cards, that are not legal in the current "Mofified" format?
Here is my take on the "Champions" situation:
1. Expansion Size: Rumoured to be about 113 cards, and as Pokemon expansions go, this is a decent size. But, what matters is QUALITY here not QUANITY. WotC, I really don't think, are going to release cards, that are so overly powerful, SER, OAK, GOW, etc., that the game is going to be thrown into a even BIGGER state of imbalance than it already is. Because it was as a result of these "BROKEN" cards, that the "modified" format was put into place to begin with.
Draw Power - I think that most people here will agree that the current environment leaves the card pool very limited in respect to what can be put into a deck, as far as cards go. Do I think the card pool is limited? To an extent, yes I do. However, I am STILL able to build original decks that are quite effective against most competition. I would like to see some old school cards re-introduced sure. But what I DON'T want to see is the "Haymaker" and "Raindance" days re-visited. Come on folks, we have twice as many cards now, as we did then, I really don't think that "re-inventing the wheel" is necessary here.
Randomization - Now THIS area, is what needs some DRASTIC improvement, and I do mean QUICKLY! Pokemon is supposed to be a game more of SKILL than of CHANCE, and NOT the other way around. What would I like to see? Cards, with costs placed on them, and attacks that are not so reliant on the "flip of a coin" and such. This will accomplish wonders in my opinion, and bring back players who are on the verge of leaving the game because of this, or ones who have already left.
I agree drafting is WONDERFUL, I am a huge supporter of the draft, and always will be, but more still needs to be done, the playing field here needs to be leveled, this means, a balance between old-school cards getting reintroduced that will balance out the environment, and cards less reliant on the current randomization method, if this is what is introduced in the next set, this will definately be a BREAKTHOUGH for the Pokemon TCG, however, just "re-inventing the wheel" as some have speculated that this set will merely do, could prove to spell disaster for the game.
What are YOUR thoughts? Could "Champions be a BREATHROUGH or a BUST?"
Please remember to cite reasons for your position, and also remember that everyone on WizPOG has their own opinion, so I would like this to be a debate of sorts as to why, and NOT a flamefest.
I look forward to hearing your comments.
Take Care,
Skywolf1
--------------------
Marsh Schneidau
(aka Skywolf1)
Founder, Card Trainers International
Nevada's FIRST Master Professor
Skywolf1: JOLTEON--You practice as you perform. At first you bide your time and become very resourceful, but when the time is right and the odds are in your favor you strike full force at whatever the task might be.
Visit "Team UK's" NEW website at:
www.members.aol.com/hairyclefairy
From: Las Vegas, Nevada USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
|
posted April 08, 2002 09:50 AM
Skywolf,
You're absolutely right on the randomization issue. We need cards to say "Discard 2 cards" instead of "Flip a coin." Or erratas that would eliminate the negative effect of a Tails. (For example, Tickle Machine and Minion of TR's "your turn is now over on Tails" effect eliminated.) What I REALLY hate right now is this double-edged world that Modified lives in.
For example...Light Lanturn (I think) has a searchlight attack that on heads, allows EACH player to recover a card from discard. WHY EACH? If there's a flip, allow the attacker and ONLY the attacker to recover a card. Double Gust, Warp Point, Erika, Time Capsule...so full of it. My opinions on those four particular cards: Bring back GoW, Bring back Switch, Erika's okay because it's one more card than Bill and combos well with IOR, and re-word Time Capsule to the following:
"You may shuffle 5 (etc.etc.) into your deck. Afterwards, EITHER your opponent gets to shuffle 5 (etc.etc.) into their deck OR you can't play any more Trainers this turn, your choice."
You say that the Haymaker days don't need to be revisited. It's their turn, isn't it? Hays had their turn, then Stage 2's had their turn. A format change only leads me to believe it's the BBP's turn again. Cycle Oak in, Cycle Oak out. Search in, Search out. Finder in, Finder out.
The BBPs shouldn't be gone FOREVER--it should just be taking turns on whether BBPs or Stage 2's rule the roost.
Personally, I'd like to see some kind of card (a Gym, perhaps?) like the following:
"Everstone Gym"
"No Stage 2 cards can be played. Any Stage 2 cards in play return to their owner's hands."
Those are just my opinions.
Peace, not flames,
~CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak (and not that (bleep) Elm!)
--------------------
What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Otaku
Member # 42359
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:06 AM
Well, I have no idea yet whether or not Champions will be a "Brakthrough or a Bust", especially since I never thought any card or combination of cards was truely "broken", that is so over-powering that one cannot hope to win against it, except perhaps by sheer luck. Some were close, but here is how our Standard environment broke down (until recently): I ER you, you ER me, I SER you, you SER me, etc. until we ran out of those cards (or at least didn't have them in hand), then the game "really" began, and unless the ER/SER count was totally restored, the game ended, usually about the same time a Modified gme ended (you know, when 'Gatr K.O.ed six Pokemon ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif) ). Just recently, NG Sneasel was re-added (after a year-long hiatus of no one plaing it by their own choice). Now its just added the steps of check for Sneasel, if yes ready anti-Sneasel TecH.
However, I am in partial angreement with CPU (hope you don't mind an abrieviation since your name is 24 characters long ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif) ). I feel that the current crop of cards are too flippy. I don't agree on the "affects-both-players-is-bad" limitation idea, at least not for the cards mentioned. They are what you would consider specializations. When properly used, their dwonside is a benifit (or at least inconsequencial). DGoW, for example, works wonderfully in a Slashtap deck. Not only do you get a gust, but it acts as a free "Full Heal" since every Poke in a Slashtap deck has a free-retreat cost (or close enough). Timecapsule is meant for not a stal deck (like NGR), but rather to help keep a discard intensive deck going until it gets its sixth K.O. I think it is a bit too early to speculate whether or not the set will be a success. I do believe we may try to identify which factors will influence its level of success. Bringing back Bill is a mark in the "Breakthrough" catgory, since it adds much neede "reliable" draw power to Modified, but has never been called broken by non-n00bs.
--------------------
Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukpokemonpro
Member # 518
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:28 AM
In terms of draw power I found myself looking at CPU Error and thinking that it maybe playable before slapping myself back to reality.
We do need more draw power but the drawbacks to that must be balanced and must be seen in context with the rest of Modified
--------------------
ukpokemonpro
"a meaningless title is just that ... meaningless"
"London Super Battlezone 2003"
quote the judge...
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
14,000 deck boxes yeah we'll take all of them .... what have I done!
Find the Pokemon League and Tournaments in Kent at:The Gamers Guild
From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PokePop
Member # 8
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:29 AM
CPU: There is no way that they are going to revise cards the way you want. Even if they wanted to, the hoops they would have to jump through are just too numberous and difficult.
They even have to get authorization on which existing cards they can choose to put in the set. You would not believe the process.
In any event, within those restrictions, I agree with you that I would like to see cards that are not flip reliant. But they will have to choose existing cards that are not like that, not turn flippy cards into non-flippy ones.
--------------------
"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugia909
Member # 1997
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:43 AM
The problem is that this is a question that can't be accurately answered until we get a bonafide rundown on what Champions _is_. Until we get that cardlist, it's not possible to evaluate whether we'll be heading into a more or less-broken situation.
But some cards, it goes without saying, would be disastrous if they were put back into the tourney-grade pool, even with the Neo-forward restrictions coming up in July. Some of these assumedly-disastrous cards, though, wouldn't be so bad, IMHO. Let's have a look at some old decklists here...
I think most all of us agree that the defining state of the game happened after Fossil was introduced. So we'll look at the Base-Fossil lists, assuming that this is the same pool from which Champions will be pulled.
Starting off, there are some cards that CLEARLY would violate the structure of the game, and all but violated it back in their original time. These should never return under any circumstances. They are Computer Search, Item Finder, and Super Energy Removal. The first two are a total violation of draw mechanics, while the third causes unwinnable states to occur without much hope for recovery. Then we have a few specific Pokemon that are also highly problematic due to their attack capabilities or power mechanics; these are Wigglytuff, Electabuzz, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Scyther, Moltres, Blastoise, and Ditto. These are a bit harder to 'diagnose', as Pokemon are much more likely to have counters in later sets which alter their useability in a Neo-forward environment. They aren't 'definites' such as the three Trainer cards above. Of them, however, Wigglytuff is definitely the most troublesome, in the same ballpark as the likely-still-banned Neo1 Sneasel. Just under that, you find Electabuzz, the Hitmons, Moltres, and Blastoise in terms of 'problematic capabilities', and bringing up the rear are the likely-now-safe Scyther and Ditto. Of these two ranks, keep in mind the new changes to powers via the 'status change' rulings will affect the powers of Blastoise and Ditto significantly, reducing the tendency toward broken mechanics.
Then we have a sizable bracket of cards that I call 'maligned'...these appear broken, but really their brokenness is dependent on the TRULY broken mechanics of the Nasty Threesome of broken trainers above. These 'maligned' cards are Prof. Oak, Bill, Lass, Gust of Wind, and DCE. All of these, while they were certainly part of an abusive pattern in the past, have their effectiveness diminshed by new Gyms, new Pokemon, and by the potential absence of the Nasty Threesome. Some of them, in fact, may prove useful in a further balancing of the current environment, such as DCE, GOW, and Bill.
Past that, we then get into the realm of 'definite inclusions', things that need to be restored to either make the game more interesting or to facilitate current mechanics. These include Clefairy Doll, Devolution Spray, Pokemon Breeder, Scoop Up, Energy Retrieval, Full Heal, Super Potion, Energy Removal, Switch, Mr. Fuji, Energy Search, and Mysterious Fossil. Add to this a host of peoples' 'fave Pokemon'. Oh, and Rattata, just because.
Then we get into the dregs, stuff that shouldn't be included because...well, why would you? A lot of these are either things that weren't useful in the first place, or that've been superceded by other, later cards. There's a pile of Pokemon here, too...plus Maintenance, Pokemon Flute, Revive, Poke Ball, Recycle, and Gambler. No present need, or there wasn't a need in the first place, for these.
In between, you get the stuff from which you could go either way...the 'mediocre' bracket. Nothing dangerous here, but nothing stand-out, either. This, natch, is everything left over after you go thru the above.
So, really, the REAL danger here is from the top couple of 'problem brackets', and certainly the first of these...those three cards alone contain enough violation of game mechanics to tailspin everything, even in a Neo-forward environment. Will we get them? God, I hope not! But...we shall see.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Destined
Member
Member # 71409
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:45 AM
I dont understand when people always say "why would wizards put that on a card" and things of that nature.... Wizards does not create the cards hear you guys they just translate them into english and pretty much run this. So dont always blame wizards for the cards and what they say on them when really the people you need to blame are the people who make it in japan ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
--------------------
Proud Member of Team Florida
1999 STSQ Ft. Lauderdale 4th Place
2000 STSQ Orlando 8th Place
2000 STSQ Ft. Lauderdale 8th Place
2001 STSQ Ft.Lauderdale 16th Place
2001 STSQ Orlando 4th Place
This year is the Gym Challenges.. maybe the streak will end and ill finally win one.. maybe not.. This is my last year for normal play. Countdown to the end continues till. 8-3-02 when i turn 15 -_-
2002 Gym Challange Orlando ?????
Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LizardOTC
Member # 124
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:46 AM
Hmmmm...
Really, it is too early to be sure. For quite some time now, I have been an advocate of expanding the pool of Pokémon cards allowed in Modified Format by including the Pokémon from the earlier sets.
The trouble with blanket inclusion of earlier cards into Modified would have been that some of those cards (such as Clefable...) were overpowered and undercosted.
Champions may be the best of both worlds, in that WotC has surely chosen to reprint only cards which are not seriously unbalanced. It also has the advantage of returning useful and balanced trainers to a seriously trainer-depleted card pool (once TR and the Gym sets go out). Unfortunately, most players I know have all the cards they need from the earlier sets should they become Modified-legal, and so i fear that sales may be slack... putting a crimp in the flow of cash to further Pokémon projects at WotC...
And the flips? Well, I enjoy the suspense that goes with all the uncertainty that flips bring! However, like everyone else, I am always looking for ways to force my opponent to flip when s/he doesn't want to (Chaos Gym, babies), or gain a chance to survive a KO on a flip (Smokescreen, Focus Band). The art of this game is in managing the coin flips so that benefit from them more than you are hurt by them. THAT is a skill in itself. All in all, I try to depend on as few flips as I can, while forcing my opponent to depend on them heavily...
If you want a game that depends solely on skill, play chess. To me, chess is actually quite boring. Pokémon will always involve a fair amount of "indeterminance" (luck), and anyone who thinks otherwise is sure to be disappointed.
If you think that the luck factor takes the fun out of the game, I will have to disagree... quite the opposite in fact. To confirm the fact that luck adds to the fun of the game, one need look no further than Las Vegas...
--------------------
"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugia909
Member # 1997
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Destined:
I dont understand when people always say "why would wizards put that on a card" and things of that nature.... Wizards does not create the cards hear you guys they just translate them into english and pretty much run this. So dont always blame wizards for the cards and what they say on them when really the people you need to blame are the people who make it in japan
Normally, this would be a valid statement. But not here.
Since Champions is a _reprint set_, the concern is not what's ON the cards, but what cards will go IN it. Clearly, there are some choices that would be good...and some that would be disastrous...and none of these choices has to do with how the cards are 'made'. Instead, WotC does have some say-so with TPC in what they (and we, thru our feedback) would like to see in such a set; the $64 question then becomes whether or not TPC allows them to put those cards in/keep those cards out or not.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MARTlN
Member
Member # 54832
|
posted April 08, 2002 11:57 AM
Lotc has a good point there. If you are good at making the need for flips well, less needed thats a skill right there. Minimizing your need for flips and heightening your opponents Via Chaos gym and such is a great strategy.
--------------------
-Martin Moreno
The Chosen One Martin (Pojo board)
From: Dallas Texas | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PokePop
Member # 8
|
posted April 08, 2002 12:54 PM
Lugia909: Pokemon Flute useless?
You haven't played with a Dark Crobat and Dark Golbat deck yet, have you? ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
--------------------
"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PsyGuyGENGAR
Member # 16721
|
posted April 08, 2002 01:09 PM
pokeflute is used in my GENGAR deck, wiggly deck, thunder-shocker deck and a few more. It does have its uses when you know that you can KO the poke over and over with just a GOW in your hand. It is sometimes really fun just to see how many times you can KO one poke in a game.
--------------------
Gengar and UNOWN N have gone back into the SPROUT TOWER to enjoy waffles with Maple Syrup.
If you like me you like me, if you dont you dont. Either way I dont care just pick one, so I can get on with my life.
DMTM
Hello everyone thank you all for taking part in out online test....here are the results.
PSYGUYGENGAR- "With an name like that it has to be good!"
From: Dublin, VA, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
|
posted April 08, 2002 01:21 PM
Otaku--no offense taken. Believe me, it's a pain typing it to log in sometimes. I'm still looking for a board that will allow me to have ComputerSearchDiscardingTwoForOak (33 characters) as my name. Nothing doing yet...
Pokepop--I know that rewording cards like that can't really happen because of red tape--I'm just saying it would be nice.
Lugia909--I differ in opinion on the "big three" (I won't call them nasty because I'd like to see them back but never will). I think they are Oak/Search/Finder, not Search/Finder/SER. I didn't see 4 SER in all decks, but I saw a lot with 4 Oak/Search/Finder.
LizardOTC--I agree with your strategy of "Don't flip yourself but make your opponent flip a lot"--that's pretty much my deck to a lesser extent. (No flip attacks, no flip Trainers, save for the lone Energy Charge, but status and babies to make THEM flip...)
--------------------
What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alaka-Deka
Member # 2032
|
posted April 08, 2002 01:36 PM
Well you also have to look at the current list of the 'new' Modified. For instance, adding Blastoise to the Neo sets would produce a horrendous deluge of Blastoise/Feraligatr decks to be built, running rampant over the game scene. Other decks are similarly possible, building a wonderful montage of 'broken' decks. Bringing P. Breeder back would dramatically weaken the play structure due to breaking one of the fundamental power pyramid rules. Oak, SER, and others would also change the game play environment.
The whole purpose of formats is to keep the evolution of the GAME moving, and in coincidence, the sales of the cards. Makes perfect sense. But to build the game into a single list of 4 - 6 archetype decks is certainly detrimental to gameplay.
Yes, I was one of the ones, and still am, btw, against bannings. Removing cards from a small pool is equivalent to purposefully restricting the variety of play. And Pokemon has a relatively small card pool. When was the last time you saw someone playing a truly 'original' deck? Or one that they played because they truly 'liked' the pokemon or characters that were in it? Surely you have a deck like that, but how many of you have been on the boards, looking up decks from the tournaments so you can make the deck that won? How many of you have/had a Feraligatr deck? Big Fire? Haymaker? Do the Wave? SneaKing? VileLock? Raindance? RainGatr? And how long has it been since we haven't seen one of the 'big' decks as the top four in a tournament? I'm hoping not long, maybe I'm completely wrong. But I don't think so. And that's a shame.
What we need is more variety. And the only way to get more variety is to produce different cards. Yes, WOTC is very restricted on what it can use. But hopefully TPC will open up the Vending sets, VS, ECards, and the other promo's for use. Not to mention making more cards. Hopefully, Pokemon has survived the post-fad dolldrums, and will emerge as a stronger game. I know I've been talking lately to quite a few people, who 'used' to play, and might get back into it now that I've shown them the new cards. Maybe Pokemon will experience the same kind of 'revival' that Magic saw. If so, we can all look forward to more, and better, sets.
As for re-printing 'some' of the older cards. Great, as long as it's done smart, and carefully. Adding back in 'game-busters' would be disastrous. Adding in cards that fill the gaps in the current sets would be great. At the same time, I don't feel the need for further reductions in the card pool. Especially if we're adding in re-prints instead of new cards. Cutting 347 cards out of 772 cards is nearly half the available cards. 8 sets, down to 5. While this won't destroy the 'players', it will certainly limit the 'tournament-playable' decks. Sure, there will be calls for 'more imagination' and there will be answers. But you will see the same type of shift in archetypes as we saw in the last format. People moved from Haymaker/Do the Wave to Big Fire/Downpour.
Anyway, enough of a rant. We'll have to see what happens.
~Deka
--------------------
While force is often prefered, the strongest weapon is still intelligence.
From: Boston, MA / San Antonio, TX, US | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugia909
Member # 1997
|
posted April 08, 2002 02:14 PM
Hmm...true! I hadn't considered those uses for PokeFlute, but then back when it was out, it wasn't a trainer that I used in the strategies I was employing. Back then, of course, you DID have several different paths to go down, so you didn't have 'essential' TecH, per se.
I also got a little noise about not including Chansey in the list of 'problem' items...but then, I don't see Chansey as being a problem so much as I do see it being something we'd want. Naturally, there's the brickwall staller that is the Steel Chansey deck. And Chansey does have counters, even in that mode. But with the additions to bench-damage strategies in the past several sets, why hit the Steel Chansey when you can maul the backfield?
Then there is the point of cutting the cardpool itself...one very well-stated by Alaka-Deka. And yes, that's a risk...at present. Such a cut, though, would only narrow the pool to about the size we had circa the first Gym set...and if later sets add NEW cards to the pool, such as from Card-e or (yez!!!) Vending Machine, we get the pool size back up with potentially a better handle on avoiding the traps posed by broken cards and/or defective combo mechanics. On that, though...that's even more over the horizon than Champions, but it wil pose some fascinating possibilties.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
DMTM
Member # 10
|
posted April 08, 2002 03:27 PM
So...Oak/Search/Finder are undesirable in the Modified environment? ![[Evil Smirk]](../tcg/graemlins/Up_to.gif)
Is their one or two of them that would be okay? Or are all three no good?
How about BBP's?
Discuss please?
DMTM
[ April 08, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: DMTM ]
--------------------
Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
kakkaroto7
Member
Member # 2439
|
posted April 08, 2002 03:45 PM
actually, if SER and/or ER were reprinted for modified, restricting them to 2 per deck would be a good idea. It slows down a deck that has you on the clock, like if they have a gatr up before you get your guy up, you can just ER or SER to save you some turns, or keep your opponent on the clock. ER and SER can't really be excessivly used if you restrict them to two, and have less draw power in the card pool. Example: I used my gatr deck, and I had my opponent praying to topdeck, he topdecks a SER to slow down my gatr so he could power up his pokemon. I eventually beat him even after 2 SER and one ER and he was playing a Standard Haymaker that was pretty good. I HATE those flippy trainers and those double drawback trainers that can't really be broken even if they didn't have any draw back or such big drawbacks. I agree much with CPU on that aspect.
Now back to Champions. I am hoping it will have some of the trainers from Card-E, they are actually good, atleast in Modified Modified format...
--------------------
"Nothing good can ever come from staying with normal people."
TurboLand 4L
From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PokePop
Member # 8
|
posted April 08, 2002 04:59 PM
Oak is no good. Use cards/Trainers->Oak/use cards/Trainers->Oak->use cards/Trainers-> win game
Item Finder effectively gives you more than four of a Trainer in your deck. Bad thing. No good.
Computer Search: Not too bad. Has a drawback. Only as good as the card are searching for.
SER: Will bring us back to "Basic-mon". No good.
--------------------
"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LizardOTC
Member # 124
|
posted April 08, 2002 05:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
So...Oak/Search/Finder are undesirable in the Modified environment?
Is their one or two of them that would be okay? Or are all three no good?
How about BBP's?
Discuss please?
DMTM
Okay! First of all, forget Oak! Let's see, we play all our other trainers and then discard our hand (energy) in order to draw 7 more cards and Downpour more energy... And YOU thought Gatr was bad already...
Computer Search might be OK... especially without Oak. Item Finder might also be OK... but it does effectively allow players to use a trainer 6-8 times. As long as there are no truly broken trainers to retrieve, IF is not so broken in itself.
Item Finder and CPU Search serve to raise the skill level by allowing players to maximize the flexibility of their decks, eliminating some of the "luck of the draw" problem, so I have always liked those 2 cards for that reason. The discard penalty is a drawback for all decks except Gatr, and as it is now, I think anything that helps Gatr is a bad thing...
And, I actually like the idea of bringing some (selected) BBP's back in. The real problem with them in the past has been their low-cost attacks coupled with ER/SER. Without the removal trainers, BBP's would not be as dangerous. They would be desirable because they are above that critical 60 HP OHKO threshhold (for nearly all attacks by Stage 1's). Lightning, in particular needs a good BBP, and so does Fighting. Those types are seriously disadvantaged in the current environment due to weakness/resistance and HP issues...
--------------------
"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nu Gundam
Member # 1779
|
posted April 08, 2002 05:31 PM
For the BBPs go, I think that we should have at least one for each type (Excluding Dark and Metal)...
Colourless: Chansey
Fighting: Base/Rocket's Hitmonchan
Fire: Fossil Magmar
Grass: Jungle Scyther
Lightning: Base Electabuzz /Rocket's Zapdos
Psychic: Don't need one (Since MP Mewtwo is one)
Water: Fossil Lapras (Or to a certain extent, Articuno)
Remember, since ER, SER, Comp. Search, Item Finder, and Oak will not likely to be included. I think it should be fine to have at least SOME BBPs to support a deck.
Peace out, any disargeements are...welcome
--------------------
This space is for rent...
From: Anime Hell and Heaven aka Toronto, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Skywolf1
Member # 1448
|
posted April 08, 2002 05:40 PM
DMTM:
The "re-introduction" of these cards would only cause to stir up "old wounds", that were the primary reason that modified was made the standard for tournament play to begin with. Allow me to expound on this:
Professor Oak: Probably one of the most broken cards in the game. Allows the player to draw a fresh hand of seven cards without having to pay any cost (such as no more trainer cards).
Item Finder: No Good. This will re-introduce trainers that would cause a imbalance in the game. There are plenty of current trainers that accomplish similar results, there is no need to re-introduce a card will get most likely abused more than anything else.
SER: Broken. End of story. Would end Gator's dominence, but again, this card would be overly abused. No Good.
Take Care,
Skywolf1
--------------------
Marsh Schneidau
(aka Skywolf1)
Founder, Card Trainers International
Nevada's FIRST Master Professor
Skywolf1: JOLTEON--You practice as you perform. At first you bide your time and become very resourceful, but when the time is right and the odds are in your favor you strike full force at whatever the task might be.
Visit "Team UK's" NEW website at:
www.members.aol.com/hairyclefairy
From: Las Vegas, Nevada USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
|
posted April 08, 2002 06:15 PM
If you can't have all three (which I would love to see but then would take up 12 cards in every deck), lose Oak, and allow Search/Finder.
I play 3 Finder in my Standard deck (what a suprise, not 4--scared of bad openers) and usually one out of every three Finders is for an Oak. One ends up being for an NGR when I have 0 cards left, and the third ends up being for a Gust or Switch (Game-winner).
SER: Fine--restrict to 2 per deck--but it needs to be out there!
BBPs--my logic is it's "their turn" to rule the roost, then they all get cycled out and powerful Stage 2s come out.
Keep one thing in mind: Re-introduce ER/SER, unrestricted, and you MUST, I REPEAT, MUST, un-ban Neo Genesis Sneasel.
"Stirring up old wounds", Skywolf, as you put it, is really a bad way of saying "giving BBPs back their RIGHTFUL seat on the throne for the next 6-12 months!"
--------------------
What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
RanDomMiZer
Member
Member # 67151
|
posted April 08, 2002 06:27 PM
CPU Search and Oak are definately broken. Is Item Finder? It depends on what other trainers will be in modified, although I think item finder would also be too good. Those cards are much too powerful. Btw, SER is not fair. It's worse than CPU Search, and Item Finder.
--------------------
"While there are wrong answers, there are no wrong threats."
-Dave Price
From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugia909
Member # 1997
|
posted April 08, 2002 07:39 PM
Of ALL of these, I'd have to say that the very worst of the worst would be SER and ItemFinder.
SER would reduce the game, in uninventive hands (and we know how many there are of THOSE), into a BBP wail-fest. You'd have mainly cheap BBPs doing loads of pounding on other cheap BBPs. No finesse.
ItemFinder would encourage trainer loops...and with some trainers we have now, that would be bad. Imagine looping NGR...someone could avoid decking forever and rebuild their deck at will. Or looping Gyms...you'd turn a match into a standstill of Gym counters. Or...well, you should be able to get the picture.
CompSearch is only SLIGHTLY less bad. While it violates the draw mechanism, it does require a spendy discard AND you have the possibility on first check that what you want may not be in there.
Oak...OK, yes, with cards that depend on discard pulls, such as...feh...Gatr, you'd have a problem. Yes. It would restore the discard engine that Wrath provides now for that deck type, and we surely don't want THAT. But on the other hand, there are possible deck types that MIGHT benefit from it that could be bolstered into viable tourney-grade decks if they had a solid discard+drawer like Oak. Prof.Oak is, among these, a real double-edged sword...and therefore, a dilemma of sorts.
BBPs I'd be inclined to dump from the original Base-Fossil roster would be Moltres, Electabuzz, perhaps one of the Hitmons ('chan, probably), and just because it's a black hole of rulings nightmares, Ditto. Evos: Wigglytuff. Definitely Wigglytuff. All have significant flaws in cost:effect or other problems (Moltres) that would tamper with mechanics to a detrimental degree.
BBPs worth keeping: Chansey, Scyther, Hitmon(lee?), and the rest of the batch. Abuseable...but not AS abuseable as the others, plus they have counters these days that're effective. And, although there's those that'd disagree, it might be nice to have Blastoise back in evos.
--------------------
"A bowl of bridge mix, six or seven Mai-tais, and I'm in _heaven_!" -- Michael O'Donoghue
Possibly reachable at ICQ#115403550. Maybe.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wanderer
Member
Member # 411
|
posted April 08, 2002 10:18 PM
Oak? The chain card. Card drawing power fuels speed. Oak is the definition of this. We have Elm. Good enough.
Computer Search? Gets you the card you need,when you need it. Not nearly as bad without Oak to cycle with as people think. It's a three-for-one trade,people. You don't get to Oak to continue the cycle,and it's not bah-roken.
Item Finder? Effectively increases the number of a given Trainer in a deck,as a "wild card" of sorts. Again,not nearly as fearsome when you can't Oak to reload the hand. Fact is,half the time you're IF'ing for the Oak anyway. In an Oak-less world,it's a second chance to use a do-or-die Trainer card. Get rid of Trash Exchange and you don't see many recursion loops anyway.
ER/SER? This says "Kill target Sneasel". There are plenty of ways to recover Energy cards that are Basic,and a few that work for non-Basic. But it's cards like these that choke offense best. That BBP's tend to be Energy-efficent critters only made ER/SER more appealing-an Electabuzz can function on one Energy. A Venusaur can't.
The BBP's: Marginal. Some BBP's are the height of effectiveness in their type: Electabuzz and Rocket's Zapdos,for example. Others are not,but are still very useful-like Fossil Magmar. Some can fit anywhere-like Chansey or Scyther. Later BBP's tend to fall into Base Hitmonchan-ish stats-a low-power attack,and a three-energy one that does 40 (more or less if there's a penalty/advantage to the attack),but only have 60 HP. That 10 HP makes enough difference,apparently....
Some BBP's fit in fine,though. Any of the non-Rocket's Zapdos wouldn't ruin a Neo-Modifed era deck. Fossil Arcticuno is fine. Moltres is fine (and combos real nice with Neo cards anyway).
I've rambled enough,anyway.
--------------------
All info in this post is my opinion,not my employer's.
From: Burke,VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
