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Author Topic: Sputter Vs Instant Poke Power
Spectreon

Member # 60305



posted March 14, 2002 07:14 AM      Profile for Spectreon      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
What do you all think of this new ruling???

Anything, such as Sputter, that stops Pokemon Powers doesnt stop Powers as they come into play, like Dark Golbat/Crobat or Holo Entie!

It is an interesting ruling, based off Light Dragonite and Rainbow and other such Energies that have effects as they go into play. Especially for Dark Golbat/Crobat this is a good thing. Now you dont have to decide HP or Power when Pokepowers are shut off, you still get both. I hate playing these evolutions for their HP only to not get their Power, so this is a big help.

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From: Lavender Town, Kanto | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tempo Stratoblaster

Member # 383



posted March 14, 2002 12:55 PM      Profile for Tempo Stratoblaster   Email Tempo Stratoblaster    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
I like this ruling too.. but for a much different reason!!

Now that a card has a CIP phase (coming into play), it makes Brock's Ninetails quite broken.
For example, Blissy:
Pokemon Power: Softboiled- When you play Blissey from your hand, you may flip a coin. If heads, remove 8 damage counters from Blissey. If tails, remove 4 damage counters from Blissey. Either way, if Blissey has fewer damage counters than that, remove all of them

So, play Blissy on NineTails and remove 4 or 8 damage counters.

Dark Dragonite, Dark Goldbat also work well this way.

PS: Honestly, I don't think this was the intent of the ruling, but it does help out my 'Solution' deck quite well if it stands.

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From: Houston, TX | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
ukpokemonpro

Member # 518



posted March 14, 2002 02:08 PM      Profile for ukpokemonpro   Email ukpokemonpro    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Tempo Stratoblaster,

suggest you read the bit on Ninetails about pokemon powers not working [Wink]

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From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Luke L Green

Member # 69377


posted March 14, 2002 02:45 PM      Profile for Luke L Green      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
True, after Blissey is played on Brock's Ninetails, B's Ninetails isn't able to use Blissey's pokemon power. However, what he's referring to are pokemon whose powers are activated when played, not while in play.

Based on the above rulings, for instance, even though a Light Dragonite may be active, when you play a Rainbow energy it still causes 10 damage to be placed on that pokemon becaused that effect takes place prior to the Rainbow energy being "in play". He's extending this reasoning to apply to Blissey so that, when Blissey is played you can try to remove the damage counters. Brock's Ninetails only disallows Pokemon Powers after that Pokemon has been played.

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From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
BJJ763

Member # 158



posted March 15, 2002 04:39 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Sorry Stratoblaster but Brock's Ninetales still cannot use the coming in play Pokémon Power. Brock's Ninetales states "It can't Evolve, Devolve or use the Pokémon Power of that Pokémon." The word use does not have an implied starting nor stopping point, like Sputter and Miraculous Wind. Muk's "Ignore" and Brock's Ninetales "Can't use" have no stopping point so there is no starting point for the Pokémon Power.

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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

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posted March 15, 2002 08:16 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
I support Tempo Stratoblaster that those "When you play" power may work on Brock's Ninetale.

There is 2 reasons:
1. the "When you play" power is root from the card. It is not Brock's Ninetale use the card's power, it is "When you play" the card, the card itself do something.
The basic reason on the Sputter/"When in play" power ruling is: All power/effect (unless specify), should only affect the card which it is already in play. The card being play should not be affect.
Example is Sputter vs Dark Crobat. When you play Bark Crobat on Dark Golbat, the power on the Dark Golbat is disabled and can't be used. In this case, you still can use the power on Dark Crobat no matter Dark Golbat can use any power or not. This mean the Power on the being play have no connection with the card which is already play.

2. To keep ruling simple and straight forward, it is not good to say the "When you play" power will only work on some situration. It better to say the power either work in all case or not work in all case.
To keep rule simple, if WOTC want to keep the "When you play" power work with sputter, they should rule it also work on Brock's Ninetale.

Of cause, one WOTC ruling can turn all the above reason meaningless. Let wait for the answer.

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BJJ763

Member # 158



posted March 15, 2002 08:31 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
I'll address in reverse order:

2) While keeping rules simple and straight forward, a blanket rule does not and cannot cover every instance. Take Muk - Ignore means just that so whether it's in play or coming into play, you ignore the power. Treat it like it doesn't exist.

1) Brock's Ninetales states you cannot use the Power. Doesn't matter if it's a continual play one, a timed one, or coming into play, you may not use it. The "cannot use" overrides the "when played". Unlike Muk, it's there but cannot go into effect.

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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tempo Stratoblaster

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posted March 15, 2002 10:01 AM      Profile for Tempo Stratoblaster   Email Tempo Stratoblaster    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Of course I know what Brock's Ninetails does.. I have a deck with him as my 'solution'. [Eek!]

Here is the new ruling:
6) If Magby's Sputter was in effect (of Goop Gas attack for that matter) then "when you play" Pokemon powers (such as Dark Golbat's Stare or Dark Crobat's Surprise Bite) still function. This is because those effects are triggered by playing the card and take place BEFORE they are put into play (where Sputter would shut them off). This is the same reason why Rainbow/Potion/Heal energy still do their "when you play them from your hand" effects even with Light Dragonite's Miraculous Wind active.

For example, opponent's Magby Sputtered last turn. I play Foil Entei and use his 'Howl' power to draw 5 cards. Where exactly during this play does Sputter turn off the power? When Entei hits the bench? IF so, the power must activate before being physically placed in the play area.

So, if Magby, Muk and Goop Gas can't stop powers that come into play, why would Brock's NineTails Power be any different? NineTails' Power doesn't override a Dark Goldbat's Stare until Dark Goldbat is in play attached to NineTails.

I would really like to see an official answer from Wizards, but only after some more debate is done on this subject.

As I alluded to in my prior message, I can see this issue working out both ways!

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From: Houston, TX | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted March 15, 2002 10:05 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
As the newly ruling on the Light Dragonite, a lot of the existing commonly accepted concept will be changed.

Are there a ruling on Muk and "When you play" power yet?

I think only Sputter and Goop Gas Attack have the ruling yet.

If we follow BJJ763's idea, we will need a ruling on almost every single card becasue the wording on every card are different. Sometime it use "igonre", sometime it use "cannot use". Who know that if there is any new word be used in the future card? Is it mean everytime there is a new card using a new word will need a new rule? Is this mean simple?????

I think not.

I believe a ruling should balance Accuracy and Simplicity.

I agree with BJJ763 that not allow to use "When you play" power in Muk and Brock's Ninetale case is the most accurate way to explain the card. But to simplify the rule, it should be allow.

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BJJ763

Member # 158



posted March 15, 2002 10:30 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Tempo Stratoblaster:
So, if Magby, Muk and Goop Gas can't stop powers that come into play, why would Brock's NineTails Power be any different?

Muk does prevent coming into play Powers. Toxic Gas does not stop powers, it ignores all other Pokémon Powers except Toxic Gas. Ignoring is continual so those Powers in play and those coming into play get ignored and cannot be used.

How about this then, continual Pokémon Power override triggered Powers, right? Since coming into play Pokémon Power are triggered, any continual Power overrides it. Hence Brock's Ninetales prevents the use of coming into play Powers.

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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

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posted March 15, 2002 12:09 PM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Please point out that where is the rule of Muk and come to play pokemon power. I think it is not existing yet.

By the way, we are just discussing a topic which don't have a defined answer yet. I can easily wrote a long message to support opinion on either side.

I feel that if we contiues the discuss, it will become emotional (at least I will). It is better to wait until WOTC make the final rule.

Just one more off-topic opinion. I feel that the whole concept of the ruling about the continual and activated Pokemon power will be completely override in the future, like the Suicune ruling. It is just my feeling, don't make it serious.

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lance313

Member # 1891



posted March 16, 2002 12:40 AM      Profile for lance313   Email lance313    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Funny thing about Brock's Ninetails Power - you don't PLAY Blissey (or any other evolution), you ATTACH the card to B. Ninetails. Therefore, the evolution card never 'comes into play', meaning Softboiled wouldn't work, even in the case being presented of 'being played from your hand' being before B. Ninetails 'turned it off'.

[ March 16, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: lance313 ]

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From: Vista, near San Diego, Home of 2001 WCSTS, 2002 West Stadium and 2003 SuperBowl | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
snorezzz

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posted March 17, 2002 09:27 PM      Profile for snorezzz   Email snorezzz    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
That's right... it's very simple. You don't play Blissey, you would attach it. Aside from that, the ruling on CIP Powers has been alive since the release of Dark Golbat in the Rocket cards. Muk stops this. Brock's Ninetales is treated as though it doesn't have this power. Nobody would love for Blissey's power to work on Brock's Tales more than me, but it doesn't. That being said, I'm interested to hear what you people have to say about Pichu's Zzzap against Brock's Tales.

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ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

From: Clarksville, TN 37043 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lance313

Member # 1891



posted March 18, 2002 01:40 AM      Profile for lance313   Email lance313    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Zzzap!, as an attack, damages any Pokémon with a Pokémon Power, regardless of whether the PP is working or not. Of course it would damage a B. Ninetails, as it has a PP. Even if it has an evolution card attached that doesn't have a PP.

Imagine Pichu against all the proposed Team Battle benches filled with Slowkings! Yee-ha!

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From: Vista, near San Diego, Home of 2001 WCSTS, 2002 West Stadium and 2003 SuperBowl | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
old man

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posted March 18, 2002 03:19 AM      Profile for old man   Email old man    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
lance313 ----------------------------------------

Zzzap!, as an attack, damages any Pokémon with a Pokémon Power, regardless of whether the PP is working or not. Of course it would damage a B. Ninetails, as it has a PP. Even if it has an evolution card attached that doesn't have a PP.

A question here now based on what you said above.

Brock's Ninetales has a card attached to it that has a power, (not useable of course). Now would zap do 20 to that combo or 40?

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From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
BJJ763

Member # 158



posted March 18, 2002 05:35 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
I'd have to say that it only does 20.

Since i try to understand the rulings of those cards that i got seriously wrong, i asked about the Miraculous Wind and coming into play Powers. I even likened it to Muk and questioned if coming into play Powers can be used but this is the response i got back:
quote:
me comparing Miraculous Wind and Rainbow Energy : I equate the above scenario to having a Fossil Muk out and playing Dark Golbat.
The reply: The thing is that the wording on those cards is very different from Rainbow and Lt Dragonite's Power. The key is that Muk's Power says: Ignore all Pokemon Powers. It doesn't say that they stop working once they're in play.

Since Magby also states "stop", coming into play Powers still work after Sputter.

Since Brock's Ninetales does not stop but rather states "you cannot use", coming into play Powers cannot be used.

To be honest with you i don't like the Miraculous Wind/coming into play Special Energy cards nor the Magby/coming into play Pokémon Powers but they don't violate Muk's not Brock's Ninetales Powers.

Oh and lance, i was going to have 'Mom get the recipe and instructions for a fresh toomie sammich for that crack on the Richester post, but since you were able to put into words my other point about why B's 9tales cannot use the come into play Power, i'll let that remark slide. This time [Wink]

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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
lance313

Member # 1891



posted March 18, 2002 10:32 PM      Profile for lance313   Email lance313    Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote  Report This Thread to Moderators
Think of the card attached to B. Ninetales as a Pokémon Tool that acts like a Pokémon, ala Clefairy Doll or Mysterious Fossil. Pichu would therefore not do damage based on any Pokémon Power listed on a card attached to B. Ninetales. Similarly, B. Ninetails WOULD take damage from Pichu, unlike a Pokémon with a Pokémon Power that evolved into something that did not have a power.

(BJJ763, no offense meant. I was just joshing with you. Kind of. I wouldn't dare to impune a fellow Professor. Well, actually I would, but not in this case.)

[ March 18, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: lance313 ]

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