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Author
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Topic: Age and Game Specific Penalty Guidelines for Pokémon--good idea?
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted April 09, 2002 04:08 PM
With all the discussion lately about intentional draws, inconsistent penalties at tournaments, etc. and after some discussion via AIM with other professors such as Lizard OTC, Lugia909, and Rabid Raichu, I thought I’d throw this out for discussion: do any of the rest of you professors think a Pokémon-specific set of Penalty Guidelines would be a good thing to have available? If so, do you think this would be a good “professor” project, perhaps counted towards Master Professorship requirements?
What we had in mind was essentially the same Penalty Guidelines document, but edited to be specific to Pokémon, especially since the RELs will never be as high as on the existing Penalty Guidelines, which were made for Magic.
With a document like this, professors/judges/TOs would not have to “translate” the “game” penalty to “opponent takes a prize and violator places an extra prize”; it would already be there under the specific violation. The examples of specific violations and their appropriate penalties could be Pokémon specific, and perhaps even specific to the age groups (-10, 11-14, 15+) since it seems like “unrewindable” violations are sometimes handled differently in the –10 than in 11-14 and 15+. Extraneous material like the sections on sideboard violations could be removed.
Of course, it would ultimately be up to OP and the DCI whether this would even be allowed to be an “official” document; we were just wondering if first, people would be interested in having such a resource available and second, if the professors would be interested in taking on the task of submitting violation examples, etc. to cobble together a “rough” version of this for the DCI to work with. This is by no means an “official” request, but just an idea…
Good idea? Bad idea? Comments and suggestions, anyone?
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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TheBoss
Member # 69203
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posted April 09, 2002 04:50 PM
Sounds Great To Me....
I Have Been Thinking Of Making One just for my tournaments... so count me in....
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The Boss
[email protected]
www.TeamRocketGym.com
From: Viridian City | Registered: Mar 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted April 09, 2002 05:18 PM
Okay, I have a problem that involves the deck penalties. Now, remember that the default number of games per round in Pokémon is one. This creates a problem with the deck penalties in that they were designed to reset things so that the next game is started with a legal deck. Unfortunately, the deck penalties applied to 1-game matches do not do this. In order to reset things, one has to issue a Match penalty (far and away excessive in my opinion).
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted April 09, 2002 05:34 PM
I'm all for this. It would eliminate the screwy 'translation' from the M:TG-based UPG to Pokemon logistics problem totally. However, the one thing that would have to be taken into account is that there's a strong indication from the MTs et al that we need to have 'wiggle room' in our penalties for given circumstances, age classes, etc. So whatever might get adopted here may have to fall into a set of 'penalty ranges' for situational application.
Otherwise, yes. 100%. This needs doing yesterday, IMHO.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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PsyGuyGENGAR
Member # 16721
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posted April 10, 2002 04:59 AM
'MOM I think that it is a great idea.
If the DCI or the MT's say go for it then you can count me in on the "madness" of the translations.This is something that rteally needs to be brokendown and sorted out so that we will have a clear and defined way of handling the mishaps that happen in a match.
Great idea.
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Gengar and UNOWN N have gone back into the SPROUT TOWER to enjoy waffles with Maple Syrup.
If you like me you like me, if you dont you dont. Either way I dont care just pick one, so I can get on with my life.
DMTM
Hello everyone thank you all for taking part in out online test....here are the results.
PSYGUYGENGAR- "With an name like that it has to be good!"
From: Dublin, VA, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Feraligatr14
Member # 31508
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posted April 10, 2002 05:15 AM
SD_PokeMom I think that is a great idea and something really needed for Pokemon. I also think it needs to be age specific (especially for 10-). Count me in.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
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From: Raleigh, NC, US | Registered: Jul 2001
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chicotet
Member # 71931
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posted April 10, 2002 05:25 AM
If you want to have them translated into Spanish too, I can do this ![[Love]](../tcg/graemlins/love.gif)
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chicotet aka Jose Luis
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Proud First Spanish Member of Pokemon Professor Program
First Pokemon Professor in Switzerland
Proud member of Team Europe
Top 100, 15+ STS 2001 Barcelona (Spain)
From: Zurich-Switzerland / Valencia-Spain | Registered: Mar 2002
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LeagueMom
Member # 53859
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posted April 10, 2002 05:28 AM
I think this is a great idea. I would be glad to help in any way possible.
From: Broadview Hts. Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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old man
Member # 28
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posted April 10, 2002 06:51 AM
Outstanding idea!! I'm for it & I am willing to help.
Here is a document I made up based off of the penatly guide to post at my tournaments so the players would learn what can happen. I did not take out all the REL levels.
DCI Penalty Quick Reference Guide
This is a guideline for ALL tournaments, whether sanctioned or not. It is a partial list & does not include everything that can be penalized, such as store rules. Breaking store rules includes the below, up to being banned from the store. It also doesn’t list all effects of the penalty. If you have a question on something or think something below has happened then call a judge immediately, not after it’s too late. A judge can increase the level of a penalty for repeat offenses & multiple offenses. Remember you can appeal any ruling to the head judge only, but do it calmly & nicely!
Note: A Game loss penalty is – The person breaking the rule adds 1 prize. The opponent then takes 1 prize.
Infraction Explanation & Examples Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5
Deck problem Wrong # of cards. Wrong cards for the format of the tournament. Game Game DQ DQ DQ
Procedural error – minor Not having damage counters. Your cards below the table. A small amount of trash left. Caution Caution Caution Caution Caution
Procedural error – major Stacking a deck. Large amount of trash left. Warning Warning Warning Warning Warning
Procedural error – severe Spills drink on cards & can’t play them. Using an attack against a baby without flipping for it Game Game Game Game Game
Procedural error – misrepresentation Unintentionally evolving illegally. Not having enough energy for your announced attack. Caution Caution Warning Warning Warning
Procedural error – tardiness Not being ready to play after 3 minutes. Warning Warning Game Game Game
Procedural error – playing the wrong opponent After 3 minute pre-game, a warning. At start of game = game loss. 10 minutes = 2 games. End of round = dropped from tournament. Warning Warning Warning Warning Warning
Card drawing – drawing extra or too few cards This does not count face down cards. Warning Warning Game Game Game
Card drawing – looking at extra cards This includes yours or your opponents. It does include dropping cards & while shuffling. Caution Caution Warning Warning Warning
Card drawing at start of game Does not count face down cards. Caution Caution Warning Warning Warning
Card drawing – failure to draw If you don’t draw a card at the start of turn. Caution Caution Warning Warning Warning
Marked cards – minor Not done on purpose & done randomly. Caution Caution Caution Warning Warning
Marked cards – major Not done on purpose & not random. Game Game Game Game Game
Slow play If you take more than a reasonable time. Caution Caution Warning Warning Warning
Slow play – pre game If not ready to play after 3 min. after pairings. Caution Caution Caution Warning Warning
Unsporting conduct – minor Disrupts a person playing. Using profanity. Talking loud. Talking when official is talking.
You don’t have to be playing for this. Warning Warning Warning Warning Warning
Unsporting conduct – major Fails to obey tournament official. Interrupting other players. Coaches. Repeatedly calls a judge & argues that opponent should lose the game for insignificant procedural oversights. Game Game Game Game Game
Unsporting conduct – severe Horseplay. Argues in a hostile manner. DQ DQ DQ DQ DQ
Cheating – bribery A game cannot be decided randomly or bet on DQ DQ DQ DQ DQ
Cheating – stalling Taking too much time with no choices. Leaving the game & not involved in a ruling. Game Game Game DQ DQ
Cheating – fraud Intentionally misrepresenting rules, damage or information that could effect the game. DQ DQ DQ DQ DQ
Cheating – other Looking at opponent’s cards while shuffling. Using marked cards. Changes status of play illegally when opponent’s not looking. DQ DQ DQ DQ DQ
I know this looks kind of confusing. It looks better in a table format.
SD Pokemom - I'm e-mailing you a MS Word version of this I made up.
Maybe this will give a sample start.
[ April 10, 2002, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: old man ]
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
Dci tournament coordinator for the OKC area!
From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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RabidRaichu
Member # 36118
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posted April 10, 2002 10:07 AM
I agree that it is a good idea. Trying to shoe-horn Pokemon into a MtG rule set for penalties is difficult and can cause confusion as judges try to translate and interpret how to apply a penalty while the two players are waiting. Additionally, if things are "spelled out" and available to the players in an easily understood presentation there is less cause for aurgument or bad feelings when a judge makes a ruling.
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From: Modesto, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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farbsman
Member # 53992
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posted April 10, 2002 10:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by old man:
SD Pokemom - I'm e-mailing you a MS Word version of this I made up.
Old Man, can you email it to me to? I would like to look at it also. My email is above.
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Judge at Columbus Gym Challenge 2002
Judge at Worlds 2002
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From: Northern Indiana | Registered: Dec 2001
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old man
Member # 28
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posted April 10, 2002 02:20 PM
farbsman - I just sent you a copy. Anyone else who would like one, just let me know.
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
Dci tournament coordinator for the OKC area!
From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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lance313
Member # 1891
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posted April 10, 2002 02:33 PM
You know you can count on my help.
PKMNREL 1 would be basically DCIREL .5 or DCIREL .7; PKMNREL 2 could be DCIREL 1; and PKMNREL 3 would more or less be DCIREL 1.5 or DCIREL 2.
Translate, clean it up, remove the extraneous, and add in/change the specific idiosyncracies (EEEEEEEKing against a baby without flipping, etc.) of the game.
Sounds like a minty fresh idea to me. ![[Cool]](../tcg/cool.gif)
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Proud member/founder of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Vista, near San Diego, Home of 2001 WCSTS, 2002 West Stadium and 2003 SuperBowl | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted April 10, 2002 02:59 PM
Unless DCI does something similiar (Youth-specific Penalty Guidelines) for the JSS in Magic (the 15-under players in Magic), I don't expect they'll do the same for Pokemon.
Nevertheless, I think a Pokemon-specific Penalties Guidelines would be nice; especially since game-loss penalties are generally applied differently in Pokemon.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ogs Ball
Member # 67977
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posted April 10, 2002 08:19 PM
Great stuff!
Can we start a thread that just talks about penalities?
I wonder if Team Compendem would be willing to make the Word file available from their site so that we could down load it?
From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Feb 2002
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted April 10, 2002 10:14 PM
Excellent idea but not age specific.
Most of these kids, even in the 10 and under, understand the rules very well once you to teach them. We don't teach kids different set of rules for soccer or any other card game because of age. We, as Professors (Judges), might not enforce the rules as hard on a younger player (well, tell that to Jonathan because once you are in the top 8, age doesn't have a barrier or any other player that made it to the top 8 in any of the age divisions) as we might expect for older players. The rules should be applied evenly across the board.
I am for making a document that allows for consistent rulings, especially on a few of the last topics I have responded (e.g., prize for having a non-language card). Better clarification and examples are very helpful. Consistent judging is very important to any game, be it basketball, soccer, chess, etc. Most kids will size up their refs to see what they will allow and not allow in games. Pokemon isn't any different in this respect.
Just LMK what you need done.
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From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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ProfessorRenee
Member # 71943
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posted April 11, 2002 03:40 AM
I just gotta put my 2 cents in. I agree TOTALLY that we need a Pokemon Specific Penalty Guide, If I can be of any assistance, I'm here!!!
Also, OldMan, can you email me your document.... it sounds great so far, here's my [email protected]
[ April 11, 2002, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: ProfessorRenee ]
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From: Orlando,FL | Registered: Mar 2002
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PsyGuyGENGAR
Member # 16721
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posted April 11, 2002 05:23 AM
Hey Old Man (god that sounds disrespectfull) I would like a copy of what you sent mom if it is not too much trouble for you.
Thanks
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Gengar and UNOWN N have gone back into the SPROUT TOWER to enjoy waffles with Maple Syrup.
If you like me you like me, if you dont you dont. Either way I dont care just pick one, so I can get on with my life.
DMTM
Hello everyone thank you all for taking part in out online test....here are the results.
PSYGUYGENGAR- "With an name like that it has to be good!"
From: Dublin, VA, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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old man
Member # 28
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posted April 11, 2002 06:53 AM
ProfessorRenee & PsyGuyGENGAR - I have sent a copy to each of you.
Hopefully something may come out of this discussion that will forward the game for all to enjoy even more.
I take no offense being "old man" since I am the one that chose the name & I choose to call myself that name here on these boards.
[ April 11, 2002, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: old man ]
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
Dci tournament coordinator for the OKC area!
From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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TheBoss
Member # 69203
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posted April 11, 2002 08:59 AM
I Will Make A Spot on my website for info that needs to be downloaded, therefore i request a copy be sent to me and i will post it on my website...
i will add a url for the professors
http://www.teamrocketgym.com/pokeprofs
after i recive the file i will make it available there...
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The Boss
[email protected]
www.TeamRocketGym.com
From: Viridian City | Registered: Mar 2002
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BronzeGrowlithe
Member # 66394
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posted April 11, 2002 09:16 AM
It would save so much time and effort and prevent so much confusion during a tournament. I'd like to help, and get a copy of those rules too, please.
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Professor BronzeGrowlithe taps his paw, patiently waiting for replies...
"What a hobby..." -Spike, Cowboy Bebop
5th place-Origins Professor Challenge
From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2002
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted April 11, 2002 10:34 AM
I am in all the way, of course!
I would like nothing better than to have a document that both players and judges could say was clear, fair and easily understood by the "average person". I think that such a document would go a long way toward alleviating the anxieties of both players and judges, and would eliminate most perceptions of "unfairness" in the system.
Judges would still necessarily retain flexibility and final authority in applying the guidelines to specific situations. We do the same with our criminal justice "penalty guidelines". The penalties are given as a range, and where any specific violation falls in that range (adjusted for circumstances and for age) would be determined by the presiding judge.
This only makes good common sense!
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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old man
Member # 28
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posted April 11, 2002 11:39 AM
Well said LizardOTC. The judges must still have a range of options that are applicable.
Also depending on the level of tournament could be a starting point for caution, warning, game, etc. While it looks like everything is held under REL1, (or less), maybe the different levels of starting penaltys can be adjusted for the K value of a tournament. For example, if I'm running a local tournament with a K value of 16, or 24 if they ever get the Master Professor going, then say for the classic eeeeeeek/baby flip infraction, I have the leeway to go from no hand for the offender & no prizes for either up to the current game penalty. This would allow a judge to downgrade it for (1) new players, & (2) younger players. Of course as the K level increases so should the start application of penaltys.
While us Professors can discuss the possibility of the different levels of infractions & the different infractions, we cannot assume to know better than the DCI. Of course I think we need something that is geared towards Pokemon itself. Just like the Pokemon Floor Rules cover the game itself along side & with the UTR, a document could be made to go along Pokemon's specific infractions & penaltys.
BronzeGrowlithe - I find no e-mail address for you in your profile. If you would like a copy of the document, I'll need it to send it to you. You can e-mail me with it if you'd rather not post it here.
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
Dci tournament coordinator for the OKC area!
From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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BronzeGrowlithe
Member # 66394
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posted April 11, 2002 11:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by old man:
BronzeGrowlithe - I find no e-mail address for you in your profile. If you would like a copy of the document, I'll need it to send it to you. You can e-mail me with it if you'd rather not post it here.
Oops! ![[Embarrassed]](../tcg/redface.gif) I'll send it to you later this afternoon. (I can't use e-mail on this computer. :/
[ April 11, 2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: BronzeGrowlithe ]
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Professor BronzeGrowlithe taps his paw, patiently waiting for replies...
"What a hobby..." -Spike, Cowboy Bebop
5th place-Origins Professor Challenge
From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2002
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TheBoss
Member # 69203
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posted April 11, 2002 12:11 PM
OK Everyone.... The Doc that Old Man is sending out, has been posted to my website in RTF Format which is a More Universal Format then WORD, as i use office 2000 and some may not have 2000 and they cant read the newer word format... RTF is readable in word, wordpad, and quite a few others.
however if ya want i can even do it in AdobeAcrobat and make it a PDF file...
For those who just want to read it, it is also available in HTML at my website...
http://www.teamrocketgym.com/pokeprofs
here you will find it in both forms...
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The Boss
[email protected]
www.TeamRocketGym.com
From: Viridian City | Registered: Mar 2002
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