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Author
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Topic: "Learning" how to flip?
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ssjvegeta0405
Member # 24493
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posted August 27, 2002 07:21 PM
As I have been reading about all the dice posts and stuff, I have remembered something that always bothered me. I don't think a lot of people use weighted dice or controversial dice at all; but that they have learned how to roll heads. ![[Mad]](../tcg/mad.gif)
It might seem unprobable; but think about it. I have a few reasons why I think that has occurred:
1. At Worlds, I heard that a kid was Rogued 6 times. 6 times! I don't remember how many matches he played, but that seems pretty unprobable to me.
2. When we got our dice at the WCSTS and at the SCS, I noticed a lot of kids immediately start flipping the "non-controversial" dice, getting the "feel" for them.
3. My brother knows when this occurs, since our friend used to do it. He complained a lot that he was ****ed out of the match because they kept getting heads. I'm not pointing any fingers at all, but that might be why Slowking could be so viable. I don't know if that's the only reason, but it could be one.
4. I know how to consistently flip heads, only missing a few times on a tails. I could probably flip 9/10 heads on a good day. It's actually quite simple if you know how. That's why you see the judges testing the dice, because the opponent keeps asking about it. But some judges don't know how to roll it. The kids get off scott free.
5. I SEEN somebody do it to me at the WCSTS, the whole nine yards; from actually setting the dice to getting nearly EVERY coin flip heads. This happened twice to me that day. I also seen it done a few times at Worlds.
I don't expect anyone to really believe me, but it sorta makes sense. I don't know, everyone is complaining and this theory makes sense to me. Tell me what you think.
~ToneDogg
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From: Hammond, Indiana | Registered: May 2001
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Strike
Member # 201
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posted August 27, 2002 07:36 PM
Yeah, I have actually called judges because I did notice a few times on opponents because either:
a) they made a pathetic attempt to roll a dice, making it more like it lands flat without rolling just to get heads
b) Using some sort of technique to get heads, something really out of the ordinary. It is not all that uncommon.
however, I think that Electroflip could be manipulated to get nearly all heads. however when I tried the gold plated electroflips at worlds, I got 8 tails in a row my first run at it...and also I couldn't ko a stinkin iggly at the WCSTS for 6 stright turns to win. Eventually tho I got around it and won.
But I think it is very possible, I have seen some ways to become "one" wit the dice. Pretty crazy if you ask me.
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Psychic_Prof
Member # 96987
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posted August 27, 2002 09:43 PM
Hm...yes...simple explanation to this.
When it says flip a coin....flip a flippin' (hehe...that's pretty fun) coin. Wether a metal or cardboard starter deck coin, or plain old US currency.
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From: Redwood City Gym, Eureka, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted August 27, 2002 09:52 PM
But, one can practice with a coin, also...I've seen this at my League: kids with their "lucky" coins, which they flip very carefully...and manage to get the results they want more often than not.
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From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Whizkiddo
Member # 86856
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posted August 28, 2002 05:10 AM
You can train yourself with a coin...take the chansey coin thats easy to flip heads with ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif) but i use dices and i noticed the dices with heads/tails written on them arent that good of a randomizer with my normal dice roll it lands to often on heads but with a 20 sided or normal 6 sided it is random like 50/50 but sometimes its like 70/30 30/70 tough luck !
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From: Den Bosch,The Netherlands | Registered: Jun 2002
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sentimental_blastoise
Member # 70533
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posted August 28, 2002 02:30 PM
In my opinion, any W.O.T.C pokemon randomiser can be practised with to gain a a marked advantage in the results you obtain. The STS dice with H/T on the faces are slightly weighted and can be rolled in certain ways to obtain a heads/tails more than 5/10 times. Any coin coming with a theme deck can also be practised with..the chansey and alakazam coins seem to be more markedly weighted than the others. Electroflips are just plain dodgy, so I think large 20 sided dice are the fairest solution
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From: United Kingdom | Registered: Mar 2002
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ssjvegeta0405
Member # 24493
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posted August 28, 2002 02:59 PM
Woohoo, I actually got replies! ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif)
Anyway; blastoise, I have seen this done with ordinary dice; heck, thats what I started to use.
I mean, people know how to flip heads on regular dice; not just Wizard's dice and coin.
SD_Pokemom- I, too, have seen this done, although by a lesser number of people. I agree with you on that, if someone really tries, they can learn how to do it pretty easily.
Strike- Yes, my electrtro flip goes on crazy sprees of the same thing, the highest being like 10 or something. But, unlike coins, people could easily use the tampered electro flip when they see this happening, becoming a double-edged sword.
(Can't they?)
Whizkiddo- Yes, but me and my friends, along with other people, can usually get heads on a 20 or 6 sided dice, even though the 6 sided dice is easier to manipulate.
But the only problem is: how can we make the game more "random" with its flips?
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)V( Vegeta
IM me at ToneDogg0405
Track runner now....track runner 4 life...
From: Hammond, Indiana | Registered: May 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted August 28, 2002 03:10 PM
"Strike- Yes, my electrtro flip goes on crazy sprees of the same thing, the highest being like 10 or something. But, unlike coins, people could easily use the tampered electro flip when they see this happening, becoming a double-edged sword.
(Can't they?)"
Yup. DCI rules state you can always use your opponent's randomizer-a major reason people don't try to rig electroflips-especially since it's reproducible.
If you think someone's a little too cozy with their die/coin/whatever, you can refuse their randomizer and make them use something else.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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DaytonGymLeader
Member # 2615
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posted August 28, 2002 03:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
If you think someone's a little too cozy with their die/coin/whatever, you can refuse their randomizer and make them use something else.
I beg to differ. It's not printed anywhere where a PLAYER can make their opponent use a different randomizer.
Now, you can call a judge over and ask them to have the randomizer checked or game observed.
I've eliminated this at the tourneys that my wife and I run by providing randomizers (12 sided dice). Yes, they can be rolled to get the desired result, but it's not easy and it is very obvious that you are trying to do just that.
BTW, this has been debated here ad nauseum.
[ August 28, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: DaytonGymLeader ]
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DaytonGymLeader
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Dayton, Ohio
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From: Dayton, Ohio, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted August 28, 2002 03:52 PM
quote:
Q. Do you feel if your opponent isn't flipping a coin (metal or plastic) in a proper fashion, and won't let you flip for him, is it wrong to switch to say a 12 sided Die?
A. In tournament play you have the right to refuse your opponent's randomization method. You can't tell them what they HAVE to use though. If they continue to flip incorrectly, call over a judge. You also cannot 'flip' for them either. (Nov 30, 2000 WotC Chat, Q227)
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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DaytonGymLeader
Member # 2615
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posted August 28, 2002 04:08 PM
I read that to mean a re-flip/re-roll as the second half of that answer states that you cannot specify what type of randomizer they must use.
[ August 28, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: DaytonGymLeader ]
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DaytonGymLeader
Books-A-Million 307
Dayton, Ohio
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From: Dayton, Ohio, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted August 28, 2002 04:15 PM
Obviously a clarification is required, but I think method here most nearly means device or technique (I belive there was a mailing on the professor list on this issue). In any case, to really catch rollers/flippers who are on the sly, you'd need something like undercover judges.
However, upon further reasarch:
quote:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question 158 from master_o_pokemon:About those electroflips, are they legal? And what happens if an opponent asks you to use dice instead of coin, or his coin not yours?
master_trainer_mike says, "they are legal and no one can ask YOU to use another randomizer,"
master_trainer_mike says, "They can use yours and you can use theirs though, so if you feel unsure about your ooponents randomizer, use it as well."
Source: Compendium 5/31/2001 chat log
I'll keep researching this.
[ August 28, 2002, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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PsycoDad
Member # 40531
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posted August 29, 2002 08:41 AM
This is one of the things tha is wrong with this game. From another post........
Hops on soap box
The perfect randomizer is 6 sided DCI dice (provided at the tourney so they can not be rigged) and a yatzee style cup so you can not spin or mini drop you dice with the heads up. You put the die/dice in the cup, cover the opening with your hand, shake the cup, and them dump the die/dice on the playing area. I just can not figure out why we can not standardize this procedure in a game that relies on flips so much!
PsYcOdAd
From: Shelby, Michigan | Registered: Aug 2001
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Articjedi
Member # 342
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posted August 29, 2002 02:27 PM
That sounds like a good idea. You can probably manipulate your rolls by the way you hold the dice or how hard you throw it. The yahtzee seems the fairest method.
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From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
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DaytonGymLeader
Member # 2615
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posted August 29, 2002 05:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PsycoDad:
This is one of the things tha is wrong with this game. From another post........
Hops on soap box
The perfect randomizer is 6 sided DCI dice (provided at the tourney so they can not be rigged) and a yatzee style cup so you can not spin or mini drop you dice with the heads up. You put the die/dice in the cup, cover the opening with your hand, shake the cup, and them dump the die/dice on the playing area. I just can not figure out why we can not standardize this procedure in a game that relies on flips so much!
PsYcOdAd
I hear ya. I remember that thread....a Pop-O-Matic was also mentioned, both would be excellent, with the latter being produced by Hasbro (hint hint).
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From: Dayton, Ohio, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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CJ-Mich
Member # 835
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posted August 29, 2002 08:00 PM
Psycodad and I discussed the popper from a trouble game. He tried it and didn't like the results. Didn't bounce the die around enough I don't think.
From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2001
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PsycoDad
Member # 40531
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posted August 30, 2002 03:24 AM
In play testing at our house, we found that the pop o matic somewhat repeatable. Basically, you could get the same number over and over. So you flip it to a heads and with practice, you would get several heads in a row. Once again, the main fault is you can see the dice. The dice in the cup (yatzee method)takes the view of the randomizer away which adds randomization to the outcome. Basically, it is harder to cheat if you can not see it. Another plus is you can roll multiple dice with the yatzee method. Try that with a coin or pop o matic.
![[Eek!]](../tcg/eek.gif) PsYcOdAd
[ August 30, 2002, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: PsycoDad ]
From: Shelby, Michigan | Registered: Aug 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted August 30, 2002 05:11 AM
Obviously then you'd need a more powerful model-that would fix it. At least you know it'll almost never go off the table, though.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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PsycoDad
Member # 40531
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posted August 30, 2002 06:11 AM
Sure the pop o matic keeps the die on the table. That is one advantage. Lets look at the big picture. Lets compare the two methods!
1)Keeps die on table
Winner pop o matic.
Comment-With the pop o matic, this is a for sure thing. If you use the yatzee method, you can drop the dice from a height of say 8" in the center of the play area and keep pretty good control.
2) allows multiple flips with one method
Winner - yatzee.
Comment - this allows more turns per unit time in a match/game.
3) random?
Winner - Yatzee - It removes sight out of the flip. I think yatzee method is better provided you follow a spelled out method. You can cheat it by taking your hand off the cup & looking at the dice. You can then keep shaking or slide the desired result down on the table out of the cup. You can use a see thru cup! I think if you use a solid yatzee type plastic cup that fits into a ultrapro card case, keep your hand over the cup, shake the DCI approvd die provided at the tourney, and drop the contents from say 6-8" above the play area I would say you have a pretty robust method.
4) noise factor -
Winner Yatzee
Comment - Yes the cup makes noise, but the popper??
5)Rig proof
Winner - Yatzeee
You could alter a die and rig a popper.
I may be missing some important varibles that could change the preference but to me, the choice is clear.
6 sided DCI Dice in Cup Method
[ August 30, 2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: PsycoDad ]
From: Shelby, Michigan | Registered: Aug 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted August 30, 2002 08:57 AM
Well, for role=players (pencil and paper of course), I think the answer is obvious: better rolling standards, pre-agreed upon before play begins. Similar to how most people agree what is heads and what is tails before they even begin to play, just add a whole minute to take care of this. Here's an example:
quote:
First, when you go to roll a single die or multiple dice, you must hold it loosely in your hand(s). This is because you must shake the die or dice around in your hand(s) before rolling, so that there is no way to know the die's (or dice's) starting position, so that your opponent can see that it is moving. Second, as a players shakes her/his die (or dice), they must not look at their hand while rolling (closing their eyes if they must). This way, no one can wait until a desired side is in a particular position as they roll. Finally, with no hesitation, roll or drop the die (or dice).
I tried to work all I could think of in there, but if I missed something let me know. I think I at least covered the basics. If this is too complicated fo your league to learn or to explain before a tournament, then yeah, go with the Yahtzee method.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Jeremy
Member # 190
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posted August 31, 2002 08:03 PM
Now heres a fun topic.
Lett me a make a few points.
20 sided: dice are the worst, not the best. Most 20 sided all the even numbers are on one side and the odd on the other VERY EASY TO RIG!!!
6 sided: half and half again and this is the secret to throwing them so if your wondering how that will help. ( Hmmm I think I am hurting this more than helping it Well at least I am not telling them exactly how to do it )
Card board coins: A joke just plain and simple there weight is just so off center most kids start with this as there first expirence of rigging a throw.
Quarters: I used to play another game where a coin flip was used to start the game and I learned how to throw them 5 feet in the air and still get the desired flip
Now some know how to do it with out being noticed others need to prep but they learn they will get called if they do not speed it up.
I lost a large prize to a coin flip that had all the makings of rigged flip, I called the judge, seeing the flips he made before and the judge tested the coin well of course the judge had no idea how to rig a flip and the coin was not that bad and what do you know I lost on a flip.
Judges need to learn how they do it and give penaltys to these people. I think the DCI should be involved in this.
Well I my be back to this post latter. yes I have not posted much but I am always watching.
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From: So Cal | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted August 31, 2002 10:22 PM
I like making using the cup mandatory.
No way to rig shaking a cup.
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PsycoDad
Member # 40531
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posted September 01, 2002 08:55 AM
I used my deck box in place of the cup yesterday at the Rochester hills DCI. It was random. I ended the day around 50/50 with lots of surprises. I noticed that it not only removed sight from the roll, it removed the feel as well. With honest dice, there is no way to rig, period.
From: Shelby, Michigan | Registered: Aug 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted September 01, 2002 09:40 AM
Even if you could, your oppenent would likely be able to hear it. I've wanted dice to be rolled from cups for some time.
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