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Author
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Topic: UTR vs. Floor Rules vs. Rule Book
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Alaka-Deka
Member # 2032
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posted March 21, 2002 08:37 PM
Had this question come up, and haven't gotten an answer yet, but didn't get to the chat tonight so I thought I'd post it here and see if I can get it semi-official before league hits Saturday.
In the UTR, the Pokemon Floor Rules and the Pokemon Rule Book, there are varying methods of start-of-game procedure. Is there any way we can pick a default to follow in such problems? IE, determining active player and primary setup. Which of these documents should we look to as the primary source in conflicts.
Understanding of course, that the UTR is a multi-game set of rules, not specifically meant to control a single game. And the Rule book is a document from several sources, including WOTC and TPC among others. Still, we should have a solid source to look at when conflict comes up.
~Deka
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While force is often prefered, the strongest weapon is still intelligence.
From: Boston, MA / San Antonio, TX, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted March 21, 2002 09:16 PM
The correct start of game procedure is the one in the Pokémon Floor Rules. The specific game's Floor Rules always supercede the UTR, I believe.
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Alaka-Deka
Member # 2032
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posted March 22, 2002 09:34 AM
Ah, so do I, but I'm looking for something more concrete. Then you throw in the Rule Book, that is the only source most kids have, and how does that factor in?
~Deka
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While force is often prefered, the strongest weapon is still intelligence.
From: Boston, MA / San Antonio, TX, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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BJJ763
Member # 158
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posted March 22, 2002 09:50 AM
You explain to them that just like the Rule Book has more information on the game than the Starter Set rules do, there are other sources of game play that expand upon the Advanced Rulebook. Though to be honest, they should've published the correct set up procedure in there, but then again, isn't something like set up procedure what the Professorship is all about? Teaching the most current way of playing?
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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 22, 2002 10:03 AM
Hmmm.
Well, actually, aren't the Floor Rules only applicable to DCI events?
It seems to me that League should probably continue to follow the Rules Book, unless they are having a DCI sanctioned Tourney.
On the other hand, if the goal is to get them prepared for competitive events, maybe they should use the Floor Rules...
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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CJ-Mich
Member # 835
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posted March 22, 2002 10:57 AM
We always try to play be DCI rules not the rule book. I look at it like a bowling league. Even if not sanctioned, we play by sanctioned league rules anyway to that we are all on the same page.
From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2001
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Big Daddy Snorlax
Member # 11
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posted March 22, 2002 11:15 AM
Actually, the only time you have to follow the DCI rules is in a sanctioned tournament. I have been teaching these rules to everyone that will listen at League, and it is starting to make a small difference. At the Oregon Gym Challenge, we went over the start of game procedure in detail. I'd say that 50% to 70% of the participants got it down.
It is a subtle, yet substantial, change from the Rulebook that people have been using for years. I see why DCI did it, but frankly I'm at a loss as to why the Rulebook hasn't followed their lead. The rule on Poison was changed with Neo's release. Hopefully the next revision of the rulebook will adopt the new start of game procedures.
Until then, you have to use the DCI version in sanctioned tournaments, but it is OK to use the rulebook version at other places, like League. It's mostly up to the Gym Leader or Players really.
BDS
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Member of Team Compendium
The source of official WotC rulings for Pokémon TCG
Mod on Pokeschool Rules/Strategy Q & A
From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted March 22, 2002 12:27 PM
In my opinion, it doesnt matter. DCI Tournaments should follow the floor rules however. If I was running a League, I would enact the DCI Floor Rules for game setup and show them the Rulebook version as well. Thaty is because I want them to be prepared for any DCI Events that come into town or that I might sanction. Knowladge is power.
-Phil
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THIS is truly thinking outside of the box!
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From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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lance313
Member # 1891
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posted March 23, 2002 12:20 AM
The leagues are 'officially' run at the rulebook level, however, since all of our players play in the season ending sanctioned league tournaments, and plan to play in the Stadium Challenge in June in San Diego, we have been playing using the DCI Pokémon Floor Rules all year. The DCI start of game procedure actually makes it a little more fair IMHO.
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Proud member/founder of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Vista, near San Diego, Home of 2001 WCSTS, 2002 West Stadium and 2003 SuperBowl | Registered: Feb 2001
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Alaka-Deka
Member # 2032
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posted March 23, 2002 12:37 PM
OK, step this up one level.
You have two kids playing. One kid is saying they want to set up by the floor rules, because they play in sanctioned events and that's the way it's done there. The other wants to set up by the rule book, because they got it in the deck he bought and that's all they know, but it's there, in black and white.
They are both correct. But how and why do you take one of them off the idea that his or her way it the best way to do things. This isn't a sanctioned event, maybe not even a tournament. But should you play by tournament rules or by 'standard' rules? Such an issue doesn't affect the game play like a format would, but certainly has an effect on how the game plays.
They you get sticklers for rules, if a player lays out all of their pokemon before flipping or before the other player determines mulligan status, does that player forfeit when the other player suddenly calls the UTR into play? Or since we're certainly at a lower REL, do we simply let the game play out? No harm, no foul. The Rule book doesn't mention 'Procedural Error' any more than it does 'proper randomization' but we still allow dice when a player is more comfortable with them, even though the Rule book says coin. I'm pretty sure the Rule Book never mentioned anything about taking and extra prize when your opponent makes an honest mistake. Matter of fact, I don't think it addressed cheating either. It DOES have to fit in that box, after all.
Ah, the dichotomy of life. Rules versus ease of play. Better regulated versus easier to understand. And then we throw in 6 year olds?
They won't see true tournament play for a couple years. (Unless their name is Brooks LOL!) Do they need to know the Floor Rules or the UTR?
Just left me thinking when it first happened. We have a stickler for the UTR at the league I got to, who insist that every game be played at RREL5 (Relative Rule Enforcement Level). Extra prizes, game losses, and so on. Very discouraging to the kids who don't know the UTR and can't find all these rules in the Rule Book they got with their decks. They love the coin, and the checklist is cool, but somehow all these extra rules got left out of the book by some mistake.
So mainly which player is right? Do we need tournament rules at friendly games?
('Though personally, if you place your pokemon, your prizes and are ready to play before we flipped a coin, I won't call a judge over to ask for a penalty, but that's just me)
~Deka
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While force is often prefered, the strongest weapon is still intelligence.
From: Boston, MA / San Antonio, TX, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted March 23, 2002 12:56 PM
IMHO: Gym Leader's decision. Considering that even the STS is run at REL 1...your REL 5 player is out of line, but that's JMHO. If your league kids already have a good grasp of the game, I don't see anything wrong with introducing them to DCI tourney procedures.
[ March 23, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: SD_PokeMom ]
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Big Daddy Snorlax
Member # 11
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posted March 23, 2002 01:57 PM
I'd agree with PokeMom on this one. In most places you play, someone is in a position of authority. At the Leagues, it's the Gym Leader. At a card shop, it's most likely the owner or person working at the time. At someone's house, it would be the person who invited people over to play. Unless it is a sanctioned tournament, the person in charge makes the call.
BDS
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Member of Team Compendium
The source of official WotC rulings for Pokémon TCG
Mod on Pokeschool Rules/Strategy Q & A
From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokesensei
Member # 7
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posted March 23, 2002 03:22 PM
REL 5?You gotta be kidding me.The REL level at the STS itself was only REL 1.Why would the local League level be higher than that?
When you are at League,it is the Gym Leaders decision ultimately.And,if you are just playing a game at the League,remember what the MT`s keep on reminding us:"This is just a game.HAVE FUN!"
At the ECSC in NJ,I had to remind this one 10- player who was being a stickler over a few very trivial things the opponent was doing to remember this is just a game and to just have fun!
"So at league level,there isn`t even a comparison.They are fun games to earn the points which gets them the Promo`s.No need to be overly strict unless you are having a sanctioned tournament.And even then,it is still only REL 1 at the most.
`Sensei
[ March 23, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Pokesensei ]
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•STS/World`s Judge
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Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: Out of the Box | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokesensei
Member # 7
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posted March 23, 2002 03:30 PM
Oh,what I do at my league is that when I run tournaments(non-sanctioned),I always have them use the DCI version of the starting procedure.This let`s them get used to them if they go to a Challenge or any other sanctioned Pokemon event in the future.
In the league games that are just for Promo`s,I ask them to also use the DCI version but if both players agree that they don`t want to,then I let them use the Rulebook version.If any decision has to be made if no one comes to an agreement,the Gym Leader always has the final say.
`Sensei
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: Out of the Box | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 23, 2002 07:31 PM
REL5 at league????!?!?!
What does this guy think he's doing, playing for $100,000?
REL 1, if even that, is the only REL that you use for Pokemon. MTM and Keiran have said that for 10- it's closer to REL 0.7.
Hey, if he wants to hold himself to REL5 standards, give him the penalties, but his opponents don't have to put up with such rubbish.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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Alaka-Deka
Member # 2032
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posted March 23, 2002 09:51 PM
I would tend to agree, (notice I did say Relative REL, it just seems like there's a REL in effect LOL) And trivial is a pretty good word for most of it. Gripes over whether a coin is perfectly flat or not. I've seen players quit a game next to someone so that that someone would have enough room to flip a coin without even the slightest obstruction. Even landing on a card sleeve 'isn't flat' Pain in the butt minutia in the rules, but strictly by the UTR book.
Fun is the point of the game, but sometimes rules get in the way. That's why I'm looking for something official. A sign to point to for the 'rules' of league. "No, you don't get a prize card, this is league and we go by the Rulebook" "Yes, you get a prize card, this is league and league goes by the UTR" "Well, are you guys playing by UTR or the Rulebook? Oh, UTR? Then yes, you draw an extra prize card" kinda thing.
And you're right, I don't think most kids could understand REL 1, much less anything higher. I'm still trying to figure out when you'd need REL5, ever! LOL But some people treat every game like it's top two at Worlds. And that's great for the competitive side. But a real killer when it's a young, new player who faces someone for whom the win is the only important thing, and the 'rules' are one more way to win.
I guess I'm looking for the best of both worlds, trying to find a way to keep the competitive players interested while not driving the new players away. And not taking anything away from the 'fun' players at the same time.
~Deka
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While force is often prefered, the strongest weapon is still intelligence.
From: Boston, MA / San Antonio, TX, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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