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Author
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Topic: Expedition Gengar in Tournament play - Cheating problems
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ShuckleGod
Member # 15488
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posted September 29, 2002 08:48 PM
The new Expdedition Gengar's Pokemon Power contains a new twist to the game. No other card before this has ever required a certain event in the game to happen before an effect could work. My dilemma is this:
I decided to judge at this past Saturday's tournament since I hadn't been there in over a month and was unfamiliar with new cards. (Didn't want to get destroyed by new cards by playing basically). I think 3 out of 20 people in the tournament played the new Gengar. I thought of a scenario, and being the judge, was kind of scared because I wouldn't know what to do if it actually happened.
Player A is playing Expedition Gengar, has 1 prize left. Player B is playing something else (doesn't really matter) and has 4 prizes left. A certain scenario occurs where, if Gengar's power could work, (in this case, it can't) Player A could win the game. Player A (without a judge watching) cheats on purpose (which could also help win) to force the prize swap penalty on himself. A bad thing right? Wrong. His opponent now has 3 prizes left, thus activating Gengar's power. He proceeds to take advantage of this situation and wins the game.
Now as a judge what can you do? Here's my possible solutions. It really all depends on how the opponent sees it, if they realize that it WAS done to activate the power, and they say something.
Scenario 1: Player B realizes that he cheated on purpose (well, isn't all cheating done on purpose? but that's too much discussion for now...) And calls the judge over. Player B says that he cheated purposely to activate the power since he knew he would get prize swapped. Player A insists that he had no idea.
Scenario 2: Player B does not realize the situation, but just notices the cheating and calls the judge over.
Scenario 3: Player B doesn't even notice the cheating. Thus encouraging playing this card very sneakily, and just plain cheating.
Now to the possible solutions...
Solution to Scenario 1: To avoid all conflict, attempt to assign a different penalty. This is where I am not sure. If Prize swap is the normal penalty, but it will clearly change the outcome of the game if assigned, what do you do?
Solution to Scenario 2: Look over the playing field, and hopefully you as a judge will see what is about to happen and try to avoid it. On the flip side, wouldn't this be considered interfering in the game? You would be identifying Player A's strategy, just by saying that his power will activate soon (maybe player B doesn't realize this) Maybe assign a different penalty if noticed?
Solution to Scenario 3: There isn't one. People will play the card and either: A-Cheat and just win by cheating, or B-Cheat and win by getting penalized, sure, it will eventually stop because of the DCI warnings issued each time due to cheating, but maybe a bigger warning can be assigned JUST for this Scenario? Is that possible?
Maybe I've thought too much into it... but when I mentioned this possible problem to the TO, a few kids overheard and smiled... that's not cool... Help me out here ASAP
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Another proud member of York Comics league, Parma, OH.
List of Bizarre Rogue decks played in DCI tournies (tourney record):
-Alakazam/Steelix (7-0) (7/27/02) (1st place)
-Ampharos (3-2) (7/20/02) (10th place)
-Mew/Electabuzz (3-3) (7/13/02) (5th place)
-Ampharos (2-2-1) (7/6/02 Origins)
-Nidoking (2-3) (6/29/02) (8th place)
-Light Jolteon (3-3) (6/22/02) (8th place)
-Pidgeot (5-3) (6/15/02) (3rd place)
AIM: ShuckleGod
DCI: 1856 (7/17/02)
~Show your true skill. Be Unique.
From: Broadview Hts. Ohio (about 20 mins. from York) | Registered: Apr 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted September 30, 2002 05:28 AM
Scenario 1: This is very similar to the forget to flip for baby on Eeeeeeek with no cards in your deck (the penalty for this given on the prof list was incorrect, by the way-I got it clariified by Kierin Chase at Gencon). Basically speaking, it is illegal to abuse the penalty system in this manner. Thus, the penalty I would give is DQ without prizes, or at an absolute minimum match loss (since the penalty needs to be higher than a prize swap even if it was an accident).
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted September 30, 2002 12:09 PM
yoshi has it right. Cheating is a game loss or DQ, not a prize swap. BTW, in a multi-game match, prize-swap penalties don't occur, so this scenario is moot in a multi-game match.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
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posted October 01, 2002 08:25 AM
Wow. What a loophole.
There are a few in this game/League system/tourney system...the FTKO League issue from a few months ago comes to mind...but unlike that, the Gengar problem does need corrected.
I forget who said this or where on these boards, but computer programmers say 1 of 3 things when dealing with bugs that were released
That's not a bug, it's a feature (Old mulligan procedure allowing 2nd player, if he mulliganed even with 2 card from the first player's mulligan to shuffle and draw 9)
It's a bug but it's not significant enough to fix (Year 3 League FTKO vs. younger kids to jack up win count/seeding)
Okay, it needs fixed (Intentional penalties concerning Gengar)
Thanks for pointing this out.
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What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted October 01, 2002 08:51 AM
CPU: It's not a loophole or a bug.
Those may be"abuses", but they won't get you DQ'd from a tourney or banned from the DCI.
This concerns out and out cheating. Do not mistake the difference.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted October 01, 2002 11:09 AM
Let me just be as clear as I can about this one. Pop is correct it is not a "loop hole" or a "bug" or a chocolate covered frog for that matter!
It is simply cheating.
A prize swap penalty is given because we are acknowledging that the player has done something wrong, but we are giving them the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and unintentional. REL 1 or 2 sometimes.
If we know it is intentional. It is cheating and would result in a game loss at least if not a DQ.
Any questions?
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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RabidRaichu
Member # 36118
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posted October 01, 2002 11:57 AM
Proving intention, however, is a real problem unless you can read minds. Sure, if the same player "stumbles" into a prize swap situation in more than one game to trigger Gengars' power then you could say that the player was "possibly" cheating. Three times you could probably be certain. But that would be two games and two opponents for whom there is no recourse. Do we then make it an automatic game loss in a prize swap penalty situation if Expedition Gengar is involved? A tough question!
What I don't get is why anyone would take the risk -- it's all to easy in my mind to put a Pokemon out active to be a "sacrifice" to trigger Gengars' Poke-Power. Heck, this is a perfect use for Dunsparce (finally, the highly TecH'ed out Gengar/Dunsparce deck shall rule all!).
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I want to believe!
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From: Modesto, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted October 01, 2002 12:16 PM
It is just not as difficult a situation as you seem to think it is. A good judge will be able to figure this out very simply by looking at the situation on the table. It will be quite obvious if they are intending to do this.
The risk in doing it so that it is not ovious loses you way too much and will most likely cost you the game.
If it is a mistake while he is in play it will be equally obvious. Very rarely will it become so big of an issue that you cannot make one or the other determination if the judge is on their toes.
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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