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Author
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Topic: Clarification and Discussion on Team Multiplayer Rules
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Master Trainer Mike
Member # 13
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posted March 27, 2002 02:56 PM
Hi fellow Professors (and Pokemon Fans),
First I'd like to post the first version of the proposed Team Multiplayer Rules for Pokemon again for all of the newer Pokemon Professors. Once again, I'd like to be very clear that these are NOT official rules, but just initial concepts. Many of you have been playing Pokemon for some time now and we value your ideas and opinions so I am going out on a limb and giving you the opportunity to play-test these rules with us. What this means is that we would like to try these rules out with your friends, keep notes on what works and what you thinks needs improvement, see if there are strategies that consistently work, which rules need further clarification or changing, whether some cards need to be banned from this format, which cards need errata or clarification for this format, and so on. The playtesting process takes place over time, normally this is only done internally, but I wanted to give you all a chance to participate with us.
Once again I need to stress that these are NOT official rules. They can NOT be played in the Pokemon League and count towards points, they can NOT be used in any sort of sanctioned play, and they should NOT be pushed as the only way to play this game. Several people have felt that this is unfair in some way; that we are not responding to your interest in this way to play. I will counter and say that it would be the worst sort of folly to push something still under development. Pokemon can be confusing enough with its ever evolving rules system, please don't add to the confusion by pushing younger player's on a new still-in-development format.
What I am looking to gather from you all is some intelligent discussion, testing, and ideas on this format and how to make it the best that it can be.
Many of you have sent in questions about this format to the Professor list-serv. I understand that the rules aren't very clear yet, but we aren't here to answer them for you. Rather we would like to see you try different variations yourselves and then tell us and the other Professors about what worked and what didn't. Don't fall into the old trap of thinking you "know" the answer but rather spend your talents suggesting possible answers, finding possible problems, and working with us and the other Professors to come up with solutions.
I am going to gather all of the questions that have been asked and put them into one big email that will be sent out to you all. You can also post this email onto the Professor Forum as well if you'd like. Be leaders in helping to develop this new format, listen to other ideas and share yours, help younger players try out this new way to play and observe what they like and don't like about it. In short, be a Pokemon Professor.
Here are the initial rules again:
Pokemon Multiplayer Rules V1.0
For the most part, Pokemon rules and effects work the same in multiplayer games as they do in a one-on-one game. To play a two-on-two game, start with the following basic multiplayer rules:
Each player uses a standard 60 card deck using the Modified format rules.
Everybody sits around a single table, with team partners sitting next to each other. After the first player takes his or her first turn, play moves around the table to the left.
One player from one team flips coin, and one member from the other team calls out the desired result. The winner of the coin flip's team gets to decide which team starts first. The starting team has its left-most player start. This means that the team going first will have 1 of its players go, then the second team has both of their players go in a row, then the right-most player from the starting team will go and so on.
If any player has to Mulligan they must specify which of the opposing teammates get to draw additional cards if they choose to do so.
Each player places out 3 Prize cards.
A player’s Pokemon can attack either of the opponent's Pokemon.
When a player earns a prize card by Knocking out one of the opposing Pokemon he or she can choose to draw it for them or have their teammate draw a card. If one player has already drawn their last prize card, the next time they earn the right to draw another their teammate must draw it instead.
The game continues until one team has drawn all 6 of its prize cards or both players on a team are eliminated.
If a player is eliminated, all of his or her cards (including Stadiums) are removed from the game. His or her teammate must add a number of cards from the bottom of their deck equal to the number of remaining prizes the eliminated teammate had left to their prize cards. The game continues until both players on one team are eliminated.
Table talk is unlimited. You can’t show your partner any of the cards in your hand however. All talk between players must be done in a way that the other team can hear you clearly.
All Trainer, Pokemon Power, or attack effects that specify "you" can be played on either you or your partner. All Trainer, Pokemon Power or attack effects that specify your opponent can be played on either member of the opposite team. For example, if you play Double Gust you can choose either yourself or your partner for the first effect, and either of your opponent's for the second.
While you may play effects or Trainers on either yourself or your teammate, you cannot attach any of your cards to any of your opponent's Pokemon. You cannot draw, trade, or transfer any cards, damage, or status effects between you or your opponent's cards, decks or Pokemon.
All Special Conditions and effects that trigger at the end of each turn, trigger at the end of EACH player's turn (like Poison or Asleep). Special Conditions that trigger or end at the end of YOUR turn still wait until the end of YOUR particular turn (such as Paralysis).
Any continual Pokemon Power that specifies "your opponent" will affect BOTH teammates on the opposing team (such as Slowking's Mind Games). Any continual Pokemon Power that specifies "your Pokemon" will effect both you AND your teammate (such as Dodrio's Retreat Aid).
So, what can you all come up with? Can you work together to help the game continue? Keep good notes of what playing and testing you have done. I will ask for them from you all in the not-too-distant future. Keep in mind that this is an experiment on play-testing as well. If this works out well, then we may do more of it in the future. If it does not; if Professors spend all of their time fighting and arguing or bragging and ragging then this will be the first, and the last test of the Professor Broadcast Playtest system.
Thanks for helping gang. I wil forward the questions to you all momentarily.
From: Renton, WA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Master Trainer Mike
Member # 13
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posted March 27, 2002 02:58 PM
Hi all,
Please find below the collection of all of the questions, comments, and discussions you have submitted on the Team Multiplayer playtesting so far. I hope by reading what questions and comments the other Professors have come up with will help in the discussions you will have. Thanks to LizarddOTC and the others who have been working to keep these sorts of discussions going!
MTM
MTM, Kierin and fellow Professors:
We tested out the Alpha version of the Team Play rules at league today. We didn't have enough time to inform everyone to bring a modified deck, so we allowed standard to be played if the player didn't have a modified deck with them. We also matched up the teams so that the decks complemented each other, and so that no team was too heavy in experience (we set the weaker players as teammates with the stronger players). Everyone had a lot of fun, and I got positive feedback from the experience. No one had any problems with the rules as set out, with the exception of when one player on a team was eliminated, thereby almost assuring tat the other team would win as it then had a 2-1 advantage in attacking, if we understood the rules correctly.
A couple of questions that came up (or were thus inspired) in testing out the team play format:
Once a player on a team has been eliminated (decking or benching), then that team would only get one turn per round vs two consecutive turns for the other team, correct?
Cards played, such as Challenge, would have the person playing it designate which of the other team members it affects, and not the other team deciding which player could answer and thereby fill their bench, correct?
Would Pichu affect all Pokémon on all four players when ZZaap! is used, or only the person controlling Pichu and the opposing team member of choice?
Sabrina's Alakazam could use any Psychic Pokémon attacks from either of that team's in-play Psychic Pokémon, right?
Would consecutive plays (Night Eyes/Perish Song, one by each player on a team having Misdreavous active) be allowed to knock out a Pokémon, or would it be restricted to consecutive plays by the same player?
For Sabrina's Haunter -- add all S. Gastlys, S. Haunters amd S. Gengars together in play from both players on a team, or just the player controlling the active S. Haunter? This would, I guess also be the ruling for any other such type attacks.
In attacks where you add the number of benched Pokémon (either your own or your opponent's), such as Dark Hypno's Bench Manipulation attack, use only one of your opponent's bench, or both opponents' benches? Although the rules called for Modified format decks, thereby eliminating the question of Sneasel (Genesis), the same ruling would apply as to whether you add both team member's benches. We played as only counting the bench of the player controlling the attacking Pokémon and only one bench of the opponent's team.
If you used Dark Slowbo's Reel In Pokémon Power, could you choose to have your teammate choose to retrieve Pokémon from his/her discard pile? Could you split it between the team, not to exceed 3 total Pokémon retrieved? Same with Nightly Garbage Run.
If Drowzee's Long-Distance Hypnosis were used, and you flipped tails, could you choose whether which active Pokémon on your team goes to sleep, or does it have to reside on the active Pokémon of the player controlling Drowzee?
There are lots of similar type questions that come to mind, but the answers to these would probably answer most of them as well.
Lance Fisher
Lance313
Hi again
I have more questions about the multiplayer rules. I hope you could
help me with them.
Rule 7 states: "When a player earns a prize card by Knocking out one of
the opposing Pokemon he or she can choose to draw it for them or have
their teammate draw a card"
The card the teammate can draw is a prize card, isn't it? According to
the rule, it is not clear if the card is from the deck, or it is a
prize card.
Rule 10 states: "Table talk is unlimited. You can't show your partner
any of the cards in your hand however. All talk between players must
be done in a way that the other team can hear you clearly"
It is allowed to speak using any kind of jargon or "codes", or they
must use only "plain" languaje? A lot of people usually tends to
use "alternative names" for some cards, but not everybody uses the same
names for them.
Thank you
___JL___
Now to the fun stuff, Team Multiplayer....
I have a few simple questions (well, maybe not that simple)
1) If I use Elm for my partner (that is if it is legal) does he shuffle his hand into hos deck, and draw 7 new cards, then I cant play trainers for the rest of my turn? What about Oak, my partner would discard his hand and draw seven more?
2) If I use Item Finder/Computer Search for my Partner, does he discard the 2 cards while I discard my trainer, or do I discard all 3?
3) What Pokemon Powers are allowed to be used by both players, which are not? How is this decided? What about Dark Muk's Power, Sticky Goo, would both opponents have a 2 extra retreat cost? (Hint, possible deck combo idea) Can my Partner play Venusaur and I play "Wild Growth" Meganium and we both get both powers?
4) Ok, this is not really a question, more of a coment, which I will reitterate next week submit my comments next week. So far from what I have seen of the rules it is great, very simular to the Team Battles we play here, but one thing I noticed while playing ares that seemed unfair was that status effects/checks take place after each turn. Poison is deadly enough like this, but Double and Triple Poison is down right lethal!!!! We decided to do Status effects/checks at the end of each teams turn, with Paralysis ending at the end of a team turn as well, since you still wouldnt be able to attack that round anyways. I have a feeling we will see lots of Kogas Beedrills and Weezings if this ruling stays. Just thought I would offer some early input
Thanks for taking your time to read my questions, hope to get answers soon
Sincerely
Rick
aka
Spectreon
What are the circumstances for eliminating a player? It says nothing in your rules, but I think it's when a player has no more pokemon or cards left to draw. It also states that when a player is eliminated, the other teammate must add a number cards from the bottom of their deck to equal the number of remaining prizes the eliminated teammate had left. So, if a player gets eliminated, and the only cards left in the remaining player's deck are to be put out as prizes, that team would lose, correct? I know this might seem silly, but are you allowed to talk in code to your partner? Is there any chance in the future that you might do Team Rochester Drafts, once Rochester and Team Battle have settled in? Thanks.
Ryeland B.
Hello everyone. IPGeek21 & I tried a couple of Team matches with some players following a tournament on Saturday night. Let me tell you, it was a lot of fun! We had to think a bit about how to play certain cards ("um, can I use Healing Fields to heal my teammate's active pokemon?", etc.), but other than that it really went well.
But the one thing I found fault with was when one of the team members gets eliminated from the match due to empty bench. For example, I got a lucky first-turn kill (FTK) with Tyrogue vs. one of the opponent's lone Cleffas. This resulted in a quick 2-against-1 match that hardly seemed fair to the remaining teammate. Likewise, in another match, the two players ganged up on the weaker partner of the team, eliminated them quickly due to empty bench, and then it became another demoralizing 2-against-1 match.
Eliminating one opponent quickly just makes the matches seem way too lopsided, in my opinion. And with many parent/child teams being formed (as I assume there will be in this type of format), it could become quite a predatory display ("hey, let's gang up on the little one first, heh-heh"; little Billy starts bawling his eyes out, etc.).
What I propose is amending Rule 9 somehow to make it more balanced towards the one-person team. Perhaps you can give the lone remaining player two turns for every one on the opposing team (i.e. Team A Player 1, then Team B Remaining Player, then Team A Player 2, then Team B Remaining Player again, etc.). Or maybe allow the empty-bench player to continue participating in the match even without any pokemon on their side of the table, with a restriction not allowing them to play any trainer cards until they get a basic back onto their bench.
You said you wanted some feedback, so here you go.
Thanks,
- CHRISBO
Dear Master Trainer Mike,
I will cut straight to my questions so as to save u the time reading:
1.) In a Team Battle, would you only flip for a Baby Power if attempting to
attack the Baby Pokemon?
2.) If one where to not use the Modified Deck format for, let us say, casual
play, what would Ditto be?
3.) Once more on the casual thing, a card like defender, would it be
discarded after one opponents turn or both of your opponents turn?
4.) Can you play Professor Elm on your partner? You said reference to "you,"
does this include the word "your?"
Thanks for your time! I will e-mail more questions about the 2 Player
format if I come across n-e. Thanks!
Sincerly,
Mark Despoth
How do Powes work under team rules - can I use my Powers on my partner (during my turn), or can my partner use my Powers (on his/her turn), or both?
Lord Ninetales
We really enjoyed playing multiplayer at league over the weekend, everyone was involved.
I need two things clarified if I may -
1. Pokémon Tools can be atached to any of the Pokémon on your own team i.e. both yours and your partners
2. Energy from your partner cannot be attached to your own Pokémon
Keep up the good work
Freddy-K
Hi again!
First off I would like to say the Team rules are good so far but I have a few questions pertaining to trainers and attacks.
1) Just to clear things up can play energy arc or professor elm to help my teammate?
2) I my teammate has a feraligatr and we both have water energies in our discard pile do both count and shuffle in to our decks or just his?
3) can I use playful punch from my teammate's elekid?
4) If I get a heads or two heads with my dark raichu will it do damage to both oppents benched pokemon?
5) And for example If I use the non holo 60hp raikou and attack one of my opponent's pokemon can I do 20 damage to the other players benched pokemon if I get heads
6) With Dark executor's max burst will I flip for the number of energy on both opponent's pokemon or just the one who one's the pokemon attacking?
Now for the request part I would like to get a few ideas on what you make a feraligatr deck out of (the deck list) and some decks that can stop feraligatr. And if you can please email it to me personally at [email protected] thank you in advance.
From, Chris SanoGet more from the Web.
Dear MTM,
I was wondering. If my opponet (C) has a Baby active
and My opponet (D) has a Non baby pokemon pokemon
active can I use my active murkrow's feint attack to
do 20 to c's benched pokemon? I think I should as
long as there are no other effects in play to stop it
from doing damage. And also, If Me and my teamate both
are playing a Pstchic deck can I use Sabrina's
Alakazam's pokemon power to use one of my teammates
benched pokemon's psychic attacks? I think I should
because it say one of "Your" benched pokemon. And last
but not least. If I attack with a Team Rockets Meowth
(Name not set) do I flip for every single pokemon in
play? I so he could be the next sneasle (exept for the
damage to himself).
Thanks for your time.
Espeon200
Okay, here I go.
1. Regarding the G. Magikarp issue. I thought the "can't use this attack"
portion of the attack was on me, not my opponent. I was attempting to
transfer that to my partner. For the record, I don't believe you should be
able to do that, but I can't find anything in the rules that says you can't.
2. For things like Dark Gloom's Pollen stench, we came up a "my stuff, my
turn" rule. In other words, regarless of who wanted to use my stuff, they had
to use it during my turn. Do you concur?
3. In companion to that rule, we created an "assumption of costs" rule. For
example, in order to use Dark Kadabra's Matter exchange power to draw a card,
the same player would have to discard a card. Any comments?
Overall, I'd say it went quite well. People complained that Poison was a bit
too powerful. I think they need to play some miricle berries and/or Heal
Powder (or as we call it at my league, "Nurse Joy with a coin flip").
Steven Reich
OK, I understand that actual play goes: Player A-2 ("Team-A, Player-2") first, then Player B-1, Player B-2, Player A-1, etc.
But during the setup sequence when it comes to placing active & benched pokemon, is it the reverse order (A-1 first, then B-2, then B-1, then A-2) or do both of the "Team-B" members setup their bench simultaneously followed by both "Team-A" members (i.e. B-1 & B-2, then A-1 & A-2)?
Thanks,
- CHRISBO
Master Trainer Mike:
Thanks for responding to my E-mail. I now see your reasons for all those
rules (although I STILL don't think Modified should be the only deck
construction under Team Multiplayer rules, but that's only my opinion and I
realize Wizards has to make money in order to stay in business so you HAVE to
promote the use of the newer sets in some way). I have 5 more questions
(sorry for so many questions. This time I won't complain):
1) In one of my previous questions part of your answer was:
A true team should be able to work out some signals or be able to work
together without having to say everything out loud (watch a baseball game
sometime).
Since we can use signals, can we have a key as to what our signals are? EX:
If I showed my opponent 2 2's (for the card number in that set which would be
22) and a letter R (meaning Neo: Revelation) with my hand and made a
questioning look with my face, could my teammate look at a sheet of what my
signals mean and know I would be asking, "Do you have a rare Raikou in your
hand?"
2) I assume that we can't just write out what we want to ask/tell our
opponent?
3) Can you TELL your teammate what's in your hand since you can't SHOW
him/her your hand?
4) A minor thing, but something that probably needs fixed for the next
revision:
12. While you may play effects or Trainers on either yourself or your
teammate, you cannot attach any of your cards to any of your opponent's
Pokemon. You cannot draw, trade, or transfer any cards, damage, or status
effects between you or your opponent's cards, decks or Pokemon.
Don't you mean, "...you cannot attach any of your cards to any of your
TEAMMATE'S Pokemon?" It's a given you can't attach any of your cards to your
opponent in a 1-on-1 battle.
5) The people at my League can't play the Modified format since they say they
don't have too many cards from the "newer" sets (Modified format sets), so I
was wondering if we could playtest with Standard and leave out Ditto and
Sneasel (Neo: Genesis, of course) since Ditto would be too confusing and
Sneasel would be way too powerful. By the way, how WOULD Sneasel work IF he
were in Team Multiplayer (you don't have to answer this, but the way we would
play it at League [along with Wigglytuff] to make it less broken would be to
only count UP TO 6 Pokemon total on that player's side of the playing field)?
Thanks for answering all my questions
Preston Hamill
Unown Trainer on the WizPOG boards
OK so to summarize, if I let my teammate use the Elm, I can still play trainers right? Furthermore, I can even let my teammate use a second (or third) Elm if we wanted to, correct?
Thanks,
- CHRISBO
We had this same discussion over Elm (and other cards that block the further
play of trainers)
Decided that Elm would become too powerfull if the 'you cannot play any more
trainers' did not ALWAYS apply to the player of the card. ie if it ends up
in your discard pile then it stops you from playing further trainers.
That way you cant give your partner a free Elm without having the normal
game effect of preventing you from playing further trainers.
As it happens we decided not to split other actions on the card up. So If I
play ELM I can't shuffle my hand into my deck, and give my partner a 7 card
draw. (Just prior to my Eeeeeeking)
--------
The rule about unlimited chat effectively allows you to tell your partner
what is in your hand without actually showing the cards. If you listened
carefully to what was being said it was possible to work out what cards each
player held. Someone is bound to invent a private code that only their
partner can understand so the full rules will need that kind of collusion to
be explicitly forbidden. A similar thing will happen with multi-language
battles. (Anticipating Team UK vs Team Europe)
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Muligan rule: we played exactly as per the latest rules. 1st player to go
checks for muligan before either opponent checks.
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Attacking: When you select your opponent that effectively locks in whose
active and bench is refered to in resolving what happens during an attack.
Tyranitars Trample wasn't allowed to stray onto the partners bench.
------
Poison now a massive status effect. Char is deadly too. Babies less
effective unless you both have one active.
Overall we had a blast. Is this the greatest thing to hit pokemon since the
invention of sliced bread?
Iain D. Kendall
Ninetales
How do you play "Good Manners" on your partner?
Can it only be played if I have no Basics, allowing my partner to find Basics despite having some in their hand, or can I only play it on my partner it THEY have no Basics (which begs the question, how could I know?)?
Lord Ninetales
Hi, let's say that we have 4 players playing (A, B, C and D). Player A with
C and B with D. Now the problem: Player A has put a Chaos Gym in play and
than he wants to use a SER (super energy removal) against player D, but
he fliped tails. Now:
1) Can D discard a card and use de SER against C (and not A)?
2) Although the trainer was against D, can B discard a card to D be able
to play the SER? Or can B play the card?
Thanks for everything,
Andre "pipipi" Simas
Hi MTM,
First I would like to say thank you for all the
time and effort you put into Pokémon and this list.
Now onto the Team Battle. I just have a few
suggestions for the Team Battle format and a few
things that i found that don't run as smoothe as I
think it should.
I know these are just testing rules and there will
probably be many changes before the "offical" rules
are put into effect but here are just some of my
observations.
While I have nothing against not being able to
look at your teammate's I have found that it's pretty
hard to not look at it, whether intentional or
unintentional. Whenever you look at your teammate's
play area, or the play area across from your teammate,
you can pretty much plainly see your teamates hand,
whether you want to or not. Also it's pretty hard to
judge whether your opponent's are showing each other
their hands or whether your opponents hands are really
tilted far enough away so they can't be seen. I
thought of a couple of ways to fix this so that it
can't happen, even on unintentionally.
One way is to just ditch that rule, though I've
read your reasons for keeping it. Just listing all
possible solutions.
You could change change the way the seating is set
up. You could have the team sit every other seat. So
it would look like this.
Player A (Team A) Player A (Team B)
Player B (Team B) Player B (Team A)
Then play could go in the normal clockwise motion
with the team playing every other turn.
Another suggestion for the format in general is to
have the team sit together and play both turns at the
same time. So that both players on Team A draw their
cards and take their turns and attack at the same
time. Then have Team B do the same. It would also
help rulings that deal with things that end at the end
of the players turn (such as the elm drawback). This
way the player that used the benifits and drawbacks
would not be confused on when the drawback ends.
Since both Player's turn on Team A end at the same
time there is no question when the drawback ends.
This is just one example. Another would be the effect
of poisin. I personaly think poisin is too powerful
in this format (Ex. Neo 2 Beedrill's attack that does
30 damage for poisin at the end of each turn, for a
total of 120 damage between a specific player's turn
and his/her next turn.) If both players on a team end
their turn at the same time then poisin goes back to
it's normal 2 damage between a player's turn (once
after Team A's turn and once after Team B's turn).
These are just some observations/suggestions that i
have seen/have. Hope this helps and thank you very
much for all your work.
Professor Michael/Ditto (on the boards)
*grumble* this stuff takes too long to read... um hehe
=D Professor Matt here, with a question about Team
Play. When an attack, pokemon power, or trainer card
has an effect that says "During your opponent's next
turn..." does that count for BOTH of your opponents,
or is it like with an attack where you have to choose
just ONE of them? For example I'll take Neo: Genesis
Shuckle
(G) Withdraw
Flip a coin, if heads, prevent all damage done to
shuckle during your opponent's next turn. (Any other
effects of attacks still happen.)
So is Shuckle then immune to damage until:
A. The end of whichever opponent goes soonest after
yours's turn,
B. Once BOTH of your opponent's have completed their
following turns, or even,
C. In games where your teammate goes BEFORE you, at
the end of his or her next turn(possible, but my guess
would be not)?
Thanks,
Matt
From: Renton, WA | Registered: Feb 2001
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