Author Topic: Chaos, Slowking and Discarding Gengar_Poke Member # 35437 posted November 12, 2002 07:49 AM            In a tourney I did not organize, the judge established a rule which required to discard the corresponding cards for SER or Comp Search if either Slowking or Chaos was in play. I believe this as wrong, though I would appreciate additional feedback -------------------- www.pokecartas.com 100% Pokémon TCG in Spanish Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged Psychic_Prof Member # 96987 posted November 12, 2002 08:14 AM             That ruling is indeed incorrect. Slowking and Chaos Gym affect the card before it's affect even happens, not in between, not after, BEFORE. -------------------- Using Archtypes in Pokemon would be like the Iron Chefs making a pepperoni pizza. Creativity sets the elite from the amateur. From: Redwood City Gym, Eureka, CA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged IPGeek21 Member # 184 posted November 12, 2002 08:35 AM             IF Chaos GYm is in play, regardless of a HEADS or tails... the CARD is discarded. --BUT for tails the opponent may have the option of "playing" the card. IF Slowking is in play... if the player flips HEADS the card is returned to the Top of the Deck BUT if the slowking player flips tails the opponent may USE the trainer and the card gets discarded. Now if Chaos & SLowking are both in play the STEPS depend on who controls what... -------------------- Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon *TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof* +GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo -=-=-=-=-=- TheCompendium Team Random Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11 ipgeek21.com SHUT UP & DO something about it From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged Gengar_Poke Member # 35437 posted November 12, 2002 09:52 AM            Thanks, I was pretty sure that the judged misjudged -------------------- www.pokecartas.com 100% Pokémon TCG in Spanish Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak Member # 37400 posted November 12, 2002 11:13 AM             I can't wait to see your judge's reaction to the Slowking/Chaos one where if a player has Kings AND Chaos, plays a Trainer, gets tails, and the opponent chooses to play it, the King player can flip and if they get heads the Slowking player puts the Trainer back on top of their deck (as per one of the last e-mails we got on the Professor list) -------------------- What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG? All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo. Viva la unoriginality! From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged ShadowCard Member # 2104 posted November 12, 2002 05:40 PM            I am not highly confused on this topic (slowking with no removal/confusion gym against SER/computer search). I heard a ruling saying you had to discard before the flips. Now you are saying that's not true. I just got an e-mail saying that you had to. Please explain. -------------------- "And there came a hero who said: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, nor the very fabric of time, but the hero would not prevail...nor would he surrender." Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged Onix95 Member # 103241 posted November 13, 2002 01:33 AM            Well, from the email, they say you have to pay the cost in order to play a trainer such as Super Energy Removal or Computer Search against a Chaos Gym or Slowking, but this is not quite official, and is being looked into. But since Slowking's Mind Games power reads: "Whenever your opponent plays a Trainer card, you may flip a coin. If heads, that card does nothing. Put it on top of your opponent's deck. This power can't be used if Slowking is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed." I would say that you still have to pay the cost, then have the flip for Slowking take effect. This doesn't prevent your opponent from playing the card in a sense, it just prevents anything from happening as a result of the card. (Sort of like using Flamethrower when Smokescreen is in effect. You discard the Fire Energy, then flip for Smokescreen to see if it works.) So in my opinion, in this case, pay then flip. As for Chaos Gym which reads: "Whenever a player plays a Trainer card other than a Stadium card, he or she flips a coin. If heads, that player plays that card normally. If tails, the player can't play that card. If the card isn't put into play, the player's opponent may use that card instead, if he or she does everything required in order to play that card (like discarding cards). Either way, the card goes to its owner's dicard pile." Going with that, the flip should go before any discarding of cards to pay for the Trainer's play cost, since the card isn't actually played or used by the original player. To be a bit more clear, in Slowking's situation, you actually play the Trainer, then you see whether or not you get to have anything happen. (Flamethrower vs Smokescreen) While in Chaos Gym's situation, you don't play the Trainer (it says so right on the card) so you don't pay any costs of playing it. -Correct me if I'm wrong with any of this- From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged Gengar_Poke Member # 35437 posted November 13, 2002 08:56 AM            Don´t recall that mail. I do remember a ruling as to SER and No Removal, because the effect of No R. requires the discarding -------------------- www.pokecartas.com 100% Pokémon TCG in Spanish Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged IPGeek21 Member # 184 posted November 13, 2002 01:21 PM             I replied to THAT prof answer... *scared* Hated slowking before? Now it gets WORSE? *no wonder many want it to disappear... I WANT to argue that THEY do not need to discard the 'cost', nowhere in the CPU or ItemF text does it say "to play discard 2 cards" but 'in order to' meaning for the EFFECT does it require the 2 cards to be discarded ( could be getting my ccg's & tcg's confused ) Is that the Intention of the card? YUCK! -------------------- Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon *TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof* +GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo -=-=-=-=-=- TheCompendium Team Random Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11 ipgeek21.com SHUT UP & DO something about it From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged Onix95 Member # 103241 posted November 13, 2002 11:55 PM            >Question 3:  Going with the recent ruling on No Removal Gym and Slowking, if my opponent plays a Computer Search, Super Energy Removal, Item Finder, or any other trainer card that requires you to discard something to use its effects, must he/she discard those cards before they flip a coin for my Slowking? The rules aren't completely clear on this point so it will go to the rules committee.  At this point, I would say you DO have to pay the cost of playing these cards when you play them BEFORE Slowking or Chaos Gym can alter or prevent them.  BUT like I said, we will make sure this is correct. This was the question I sent in and got the answer for, but in my opinion, even though it makes Slowking more broken, you should pay the cost before the Slowking flip, but after the Chaos flip. Unless you can play the trainers without using their effects (basicly discarding them for no reason), I see it as this way, but its up to the jury to decide this case of Chaos King vs. Discard Pile. From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged Otaku Member # 42359 posted November 14, 2002 06:43 AM             This is a very tricky issue. For my two cents, I would probably have to go with paying the cost and then finiding out whether or not the card works. Why? Negation. Since I started out in Pokemon, I am mostly basing the following on Yu-Gi-Oh ( ), which a lot of people have told me is sort of a "M:tG-lite". In Yugi, some times cards (and their effects) are negated, sometimes they are destroyed, and sometimes both occur. A negated card has its effect "canceled out", so to speak. If the card would normally be destroyed after that one use, then it is destroyed as normal. Pot of Greed (Basically "Bill"), for example, can be negated by certain effects, and since it is discarded (destroyed-everything has to sound violent ;P), after the effect, to the Graveyard (Discard Pile) it goes. Field Magic Cards (think Stadiums) can be negated by an effect for a turn, but unless the effect targeting the Field Magic card says to "negate and destroy", it will remain on the field, and barring anything else happening, will begin to work the next turn. Whew! So, why did I mention all that? Because when a card is negated and/or destroyed, any costs must still be payed. The way these Pokemon cards read, it depends on the whole "use vs. play" debate, which gives me a headache. Assuming ownership of the card is the only real issue in that, either way, if somehting would "negate" the effect, it wouldn't negate the cost. This could, of all things, help balance out Unlimited. Really! It all depends on two things: how they finally rule on this, and how you split "costs" and effects". No one can really argue that discarding two cards from your hand for a Computer Search isn't a cost, but think if it is decided that discarding your hand is the cost for a Professor Oak. For those not getting what I mean (its early in some parts of the world ), what I am saying is that the way I read Oak, it might be that if Slowking negates Professor Oak, you would still have discarded our old hand, as that is the cost to play/use a Professor Oak. Its kind of the Baby Rule and Fossil/LC Haunter's Transparency: Since the Baby Rule prevents attacks, you flip for it first, not even naming your attack, and certainly not paying any attack costs (other than being able to attack at all). Transparency on theother hand, requires you pay every costs (flips, discards, etc.), but if your opooents flips heads, its wasted. -------------------- Imakuni Rules! You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger. From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged PokePop Member # 8 posted November 14, 2002 09:36 AM             Otaku: Very dangerous trying to use the logic of Magic in Pokemon. SOmetimes a different logic applies, sometimes no logic applies (very frustrating then!). In this case, It seems problematic to do the discard before flipping. If you have a Chaos Gym in Play and make Player A discard 2 cards before he flips for is CPU Search, what happens if he gets tails and Player B decides to use it? Does Player B now have to discard 2 of their cards (4 total now!), or did Player A pay the cost and now B gets to use it for free? That doesn't sound right to me at all! -------------------- "This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged

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