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Author
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Topic: Question about Take-backs in Pokemon
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 04, 2003 08:52 PM
In a competing TCG that I play, there's a take-back rule that allows a player to unwind one game action. Personally, as a Pokemon judge, I also allow this rule and usually announce before the tournament that players may take back the most recent game action (so long as it can be properly unwound). For example, if a player places an energy (without any triggered actions being done such as Pokemon Park or Eevee's energy evolution), then that player may change his mind before he does any other actions and return the energy to his hand.
Now, I don't recall there being a ruling about this. I've heard some say that "a card laid is a card played," or "if you let go of the card, you can't take it back."
So, help me on this. Is there something in the rulings about take-backs, or is that left up to the judge's personal preference or discretion?
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The Dark Llama
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Member # 75434
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posted March 04, 2003 09:06 PM
I'm sure there isnt a rule (at least not i nthe rulebook) against it, but I think that, like in chess, you should only be able to change a move when yo udo not remove your hand from it.
ie: if someone attaches an energy, but doesnt let it go, then they switch it to another,that should be fair. But halfway thru the game switching (without Energy Switch) is just wrong.
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted March 04, 2003 09:25 PM
I believe in the YOU LET go of it YOU PLAYED it. AND so I always announce this BEFORE any tourney so that ALL players are aware of it.
AND as a judge if a an action is immediately rewindable in REL1 , I allow it with a caution... next time if it the same player, a warning...
BUT that it is specifically in the DCI rules... no.
Hey, where is YOSHI??? Do YOU know?
[ March 04, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 04, 2003 09:28 PM
hey Dark Llama, if there's no specific rule FOR or AGAINST take-backs, then "what's right and wrong" is a subjective determination. That's why I'm asking whether take-backs has been officially ruled upon yet.
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 04, 2003 09:33 PM
yah IPGeek, I think there's only one problem with the rule about "you let go, so you played it." It can easily be contested by both players. One can say, "you let go," and the other can say "no I didn't." Now, the judge must determine who is lying. As a judge, I want to avoid those situations as much as possible.
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted March 04, 2003 10:32 PM
We are talking _tournament_ play here, yes?
The questions are: When is the card played? Can you un-play a card?
CARD IN PLAY:
The card is played when it is put in play or in the discard. Examples: When you put the Prof Elm in the discard, you do that to shuffle then draw 7--its all one action, not divisible. Once you attach a fire energy to the Slugma on the bench, it has that energy.
Is there any dispute or addition to when a card is played? This is off the top of my head, but I think its right.
UNPLAYING A CARD:
Can you do this? The rules don't say so.
If there is an error, it can be unwound -- officially only by a judge, but advanced players often agree to fix such things on their own. There is no unplaying a card or take back in PKMN.
STYLE, LEARNING & KNOWING WHEN TO BREAK THE RULES
The best players capitalize on the fact that many (most) games are won off your opponents errors. Its not warm and fuzzy to say stick by the 'you let go, so you played it' approach. I've been on the short end of that, but its taught me to think before I put something down. Just don't sit opposite me and try to call my attacks to end my turn for me while I'm thinking.
In a tourney, when you've played it, its done (unless it was an illegal play and can be unwound). In casual play, its silly unless you're well acquainted with your opponent and trying to help each other train for tourneys. I don't recommend it at all for regular BZ. There is a time and place at which we have to build players not victories and each advanced player should recognize that time and place according to their own view of what benefits the game.
IPGEEK21 -- Do you mean a player gets to take back any ACTION with a warning, or just an ERROR?
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From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 05, 2003 12:39 AM
bulbasnore, you've done a decent job of explaining what it means to PLAY a card. I'm sure others can come up with good definitions too.
However, I'm not discussing what it means to play a card, but rather, once played (and no other actions occured), can a player take it back? I say yes.
Now, all I'm trying to do is avoid the classic quarrels we see at many tournaments where two players start arguing about whether a card was PLAYED or not. It's an argument that NO judge can adequately rule on because there's NO official definition of what it means to play a card (and rightfully so). So, when a player calls me over to rule on whether he or his opponent just PLAYED a card or not, I remind them about what I said about take-backs at the beginning of the tournament.
Come on now, whenever a judge is called over to rule upon a PLAYED card, it often resorts to he-said, she-said. So, I allow 1-play take-backs and avoid the issue all together.
Okay, it's kind of a cop-out. But I haven't had a complaint yet when I've announced the take-back rule before the tournament.
[ March 05, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 05, 2003 01:07 AM
All right, after doing a little research, I've realized I made an incorrect statement in my original post. Here's an excerp from the Tournament Rulebook for the other TCG I play:
quote:
The rules do not allow a player to take back an action, even though many players allow their opponents to occassionally do so as a matter of courtesy. However, sometimes a player must take back an action in order to allow another player the oppurtunity to act.
So, in my other TCG-of-choice (LOTR), take-backs aren't allowed by the rules, but rather an act of courtesy.
I was mis-informed. At my last LOTR tourney, the tournament director said that 1-action take-backs are allowed. I'd better go correct him.
Well now, I guess I'd better change my take-back speech before tournaments and try to define what it means to PLAY a card. I'll then explain that occassional take-backs are a matter of courtesy, and encourge the players to play courteously. ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
BTW, the second part of my quote brings up a very important issue regarding such actions as Slowking's Mindgames. If my opponent has Slowkings in play, I can't "sneakily" play trainers in the hopes that my opponent doesn't notice. For example, I can't quietly put Prof Elm in my discard pile, stare at my opponent, and wait for him to respond with Mindgames. I MUST afford him the oppurtunity to respond in a manner that he CAN respond. Trying to "flying under the radar" of Mindgames is a form of deception and cheating.
Wow, how did I get so side-tracked. It must be late (or early).
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 05, 2003 08:27 AM
I've seen many times when a Player missed his opportunity to use Mind Games. It's a good example.
As a Judge, I would rule that as long as a player announced the card he was playing and waited 3 seconds before proceeding, he had allowed his opponent sufficient time to respond with a potenital counter (such as Mind Games). If they realized after things had moved on (other cards played, etc.), then that is too bad.
Now, if the reaction is mandatory (as opposed to Mind Games which is voluntary), a player can't let his opponent forget to take the action even if it's not in their interest.
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted March 05, 2003 11:37 AM
quote:
Hey, where is YOSHI??? Do YOU know?
Nope, although I have always ruled that once you let go of a card, it is played. As far as I know, though, there's no hard and fast rule.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted March 05, 2003 11:58 AM
THERE you are ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
SteveP, I would HOPE that the 2 players are honest enough =/
THE 2 should have noticed IF the player let a card go... BUT as a judge I could rule that if the step is rewindable to let the player do so, with a caution... if no one can remember.
*I have usually been able to dissect 10 and under ruling difficulties but NOT ALL, but I think my worst experience was at the SBZ where 2 ADULTS got in a shouting match ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif) ADULTS???
Bulbasnore, OH NO, they are NOT allowed to take back any step. IF I AM the opponent I WOULD consult a judge.
AS SteveP found out in LOTR, one of my actions is USUALLY to discuss with the opponent... some opponents can be quite fair/nice sometimes, SOMETIMES. If not, then I RULE.
[ March 05, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 05, 2003 12:08 PM
It is the same with our games. Once you play a card in our tournaments then it is considered played. It is not in the rules it is considered a basic game rule for our games.
In a small tournament it would be okay to allow them to take it back, but it should be the exception and announced before hand.
In larger tournaments it is not done.
DMTM
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted March 05, 2003 12:51 PM
I can't believe that there is no simple rule on this.
I remember that there is a similar dicussion on this forum several months ago. There is no conclusion at that time.
Before I read what SteveP quote from the Tournament Rulebook, I do the following:
I should decide to rule lose or rule tight before the tournament.
For lose side, if the card is just put on the table and no other action be done, I will ask the opponent if the he/she allow the other player to take back the cards. If the he/she allow, the player could take back the card.
For the tight side, I will say as long as the finger leave the card, or the player annouce to play a card (e.g "I play Elm") and put the card on the table (even the finger is still on the card), the card is considered played and can not take back.
But after read SteveP's quote from the Tournament Rulebook, I am wondering could I rule in the lose side.
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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TrEkIeV
Member # 3433
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posted March 05, 2003 07:43 PM
this is kinda on the same subject, i have done this myself, when i do any attack, in my head i'm thinking whichone i want to do, but my mouth says another, and i catch myself in the middle and say the attack i want to do. like if i wanted to do electrabuzz's thundershock but accidently says thunderpunch, like "thunderpunc...no..thundershock...yea, thundershock." can that type of error be taken back?
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dkates
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Member # 113463
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posted March 05, 2003 08:23 PM
It happens to me, too, in friendly games. I don't know about tournament settings, but in friendly games, we usually allow takebacks of attack declarations as long as nothing that is required for that attack specifically has been done. I don't know how it is usually done in tournaments, but I think this rule would work.
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 05, 2003 11:12 PM
yup, in order to grant your opponent a take-back, you first need to define what it means to play something or take an action (such as announcing a Pokemon Power or attack).
Before playing a card or taking an action, it's definately best to survey the situation. For example, before I play CopyCat, I ALWAYS ask my opponent how many cards they're holding. If someone said, "I'll play CopyCat. How many cards do you have?" If the reponse is "two," then is it a take-back if the player changes his mind and DOESN'T play CopyCat, even if the player hasn't laid down the trainer?
Anyway, I think common courtesy should prevail. If there's any question as to whether a card has been "played" or not, the decent thing to do is allow your opponent a take-back. Obviously, like DMTM said, take-backs are the exception, not the norm (in small tournaments). Players should not expect their opponent to always (or ever) grant such favors. But, you be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you.
Now, regarding DMTM's comment that take-backs aren't done in large tournaments, I've got to say, "Leave it up to the players. Don't take common courtesy out of the players' control." Major tournament or not, I think take-backs should be exactly like the Decipher Tournament Rulebook states (see my post above), even though DCI has no such statement in its rulebooks. JMO.
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 06, 2003 10:51 AM
I do not mean it is not done between players in a large tournament.
What I was refering to is a dispute between players when a judge has to rule. It is not done. In large Tournaments this way. It is never done in our tournaments.
DMTM
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